So you are saying that they are not investing enough $ to cover all outstanding liabilities? Hard to imagine five smart businessman wanting to own a company that is underwater and not infusing the capital necessary to get the boat floating with plenty of extra draught

That's a fairy tale. There are no pinball Santa Clauses wandering around with sacks of money just waiting to refund people. It sounds nice, but no. It's costing enough to pull this off already.

If everyone decides they're out for now and they'll just buy it later then I get it. But even if you get your money you'll probably never get your game, it just won't happen after a run on the bank.

See my above post about my biases. Facts are still facts. Everyone will make their own call, and we'll see what happens.

My fear and true belief is once the papers are signed and the company is rebirthed, it will have a new (similar) name.
Anyone after a refund from the original heighway that Andrew was running will be told by the new company, and in your words, "Andrew is gone so he can't refund money"

That's just how I feel.

After what happened with Bumper Actions 1, 2 & 3 Toads, I can see why you'd think that. I don't think it's going to play out like that in this case though.

Everyone will make their own call, and we'll see what happens.

Quite.

Except Fox granted the license to Heighway Pinball. What you are talking about is a whole new company (that's the only way they could avoid all liabilities of Heighway), so they would have to get the license from Fox. That's not likely given the current situation.

Edit: I'm clueless on business laws in GB

Right!

It just doesn't make sense. I'm more clueless than Rob on business laws anywhere I'm sure, but just think out the logic. The license and the game and the customers are the real assets. Even if there was some magic trick to getting the assets without the debts, the license doesn't just transfer. And the customers? If they pulled that and left all those people hanging do you think they'd have a line out the door to buy games? Who would want to send in money then? It would be Predator all over, who would be in on a second chance on Predator?

There are so many other ways you could invest the kind of money they have, a scam just doesn't make sense.

Gonna make up some numbers, they're probably not too far off, but just being clear they're fake.

Say you can invest a million dollars and bail out this company. Pay off the debts, buy parts, make games, get your pre order customers and early adopters taken care of. Fix the broken stuff, do it all right. You get your people together, there's 5 of them, and they all agree they can chip in $200k to make it work. It's tight, it's a lot of money, it's a risk, but damnit, they love pinball and let's just do it.

These guys ran the numbers and tracked everything down for weeks to make sure they could do it. That much is a fact and real.

Not let's say on top of that all the pre-order money bails, and suddenly there's a new $500k hole. Everyone who thought they could just manage with $200k is now on the hook for $300k. This isn't deciding to get the LE Dialed In over the standard because it's only $1000 more, that's a hundred thousand dollars more you gotta come up with. Big change, big difference.

I'm sure there's a certain churn % built into the math, but everyone bailing is a whole new ball of wax.

Unless the lawyers involved for both sides post here, I'm going to go ahead and be skeptical of who is liable, who has the license blah blah. Nobody here knows. Period.

Actually, we know who is liable: Heighway Pinball (the company). Period.

Even if they change their name.

Yes, this part isn't in dispute. Let's not muddy the waters with fake scenarios here, we know who has the license and took the money.

As for the name, if Andrew is out, and not staying on as a figure head ala Gary or Jack, then I would absolutely change the name if I were them. It's just smart marketing. As Rob notes it wouldn't magically change any of the liabilities etc, it's just a name and logo.

AGAIN. If the legal documents are written in such a way that makes that the case, yes, if they are written in another manner, no. Let's not speak in absolutes with lawyers involved. Especially if A. You aren't a lawyer and B. you aren't the friggin lawyer involved in the agreement. In other words, saying you know X about the agreement in this thread means jackshit. You are free to continue acting like you know rob, that's fine. It may very well turn out to be the case. BUT, actual fact is you don't know.

We shall see, won't we.

It's comical, reading that the lemmings are blinded by reality.

Not jumping in to your discussion but RobT is a practicing attorney with a litigation based practice.

curious, what law does he specifically specialize in?

read the post again captain " OR B. you aren't the friggin lawyer involved in the agreement. ". If he is not involved, he does not know. What he says MAY turn out to be true. BUT, like every goddamn lawyer he acts like he knows for sure!

PS Let's take bits of every post out of context and play gotcha!! It's fun. Christ this thread is a downer.

I hear what you are saying. If someone is not in the room and seeing the documents they don't know for certain. Someone like RobT though is usually able to extrapolate the data based on what is known but that's never 100%, just educated speculation.

I do know the answer to that question but can't recall how I came about the info, might have been in confidence. He can answer it if he wants to. He's a respected attorney in his community.

MGM licensed the Adams Family playfields to Gene, and then when happy face stole all his stuff, obviously the license was transferred to CPR.

It was not a brand new agreement, otherwise CPR would have made a whole lot more of them.....

Just for the record , i did get my email. Be interesting to see how it plays out.

It does seem like they are promising something that may not be possible , once again. Ordering parts does not equal "we have all the parts" , so how can you estimate what you will build unless everything goes perfectly?

Clearing up the problems associated with what could happen if everyone cancels their preorder or pulls out their "paid in full" cash would help. They have to be committed to make this game in bulk no matter what happens. The sales will come when they prove they can make this game well-built and reliable, as well as develop a customer relationship to help with issues and build future games to support the platform.

Personally , i would like to hear public assurances (as opposed to responding to each customers concerns privately) that the game parts and assembly process is finalized. We know from owners (of Alien protos) of the issues that were popping up. Are they solved completely?

If the success and future of this company rides on retaining all of the pre-orders , they are not in it for the long haul. We all want a company that is ready to exist now and for years to come.

I am not sure how the new investors are going to get that message across. The email does nothing to address the shortcomings of the previous CEO's failed promises and lack of communication.

Unsolicited advice:

If you guys are going to represent Heighway pinball from this point forward, you have to own up to the failures that have brought us this far. The game design and core team that Andrew brought together has resulted in what i see as an amazing game. The platform can have a future, but only if it is taken seriously.

Also , if you are sending out a letter in English , check your grammer. "Times are a changing and to the better! There is no denial that there has taken time to speed up the production." In what language is that right?

Still rooting for this to succeed.

is it corporate law and specifically dealing with mergers, acquisitions, and take overs?

If not then that is like asking a gynecologist to check out the wart on your foot

tigerthechief (resized).jpg

You got the animal all wrong, it's:

IMG_4610 (resized).JPG

In regards to letters and communication, I have heard nothing from the new investors yet and I would like to.

I have reached out via the channels and no reply yet. I would like confirmation that they are going to work with us on the same deal previously arranged of getting a full production playfield to drop in/exchange once things are 100% at full production quality.

Joe, David, Helmut >> can any of you guys assist here please?

How in the wide world of sports do you "extrapolate" from the "data"??? We have no data!! This is speculation on a forum...nobody has seen anything. Some guys are bailing them out and taking them over...maybe...or something like that...or something completely different for all we know.

FYI: Every case in every courtroom has a lawyer on each side that thinks the other one is full of shit! I just went through a year of dealing with those blood-suckers!

I hate when people call me chief! Wickerman is right though. Law speculation is doing nothing positive for this thread.

I take back the chief. I would like to substitute "Captain".

At least they knew WHO to send the emails to and how much is owed

Jpop had no clue of either!

captaintiger (resized).jpg

Heh, "happy face" more like half-face.

Pinball is so fun.

I got the letter this morning....i've been trying to hold out and let things ply out, but I have to say I'm getting burned out on all the BS. Think I'm going to "get" a refund...my other hobby needs brakes.

Brian.....OUT!!!

Quoted from TigerLaw:

He can answer it if he wants to. He's a respected attorney in his community.

Well, at least he is respected in his community....

Let's keep this simple. These new investors better have DEEP pockets. For arguments sake they need to assume all pre orders are refunded and need to be able to cover the rest of the production WITHOUT making any profit. They have to assume Alien is a loss financially but are looking at games 2, 3, and 4 to begin making a profit. If they are thinking they can raise prices and sell enough units to make a profit on Alien it is not gonna happen. The best they can hope to do is produce about 300 games over the next 2 years and not ask for a dime until a game is built and ready to ship. And in that time they have to win back trust of buyers and show they will have parts and support for their games. The fact is Alien still has some work to be ready for production so that could still mean several months before issues are fixed and production can begin.

How many startup companies can go 2-3 years without generating enough revenue to cover expenses......

I would question the business sense of the investors behind this because they will take an immediate loss and not have a chance for any return for 2-3 years.

The smart play is to get your money back now. If the company folds there will be NOTHING to get later. If they survive and produce the game you can buy it then.

No one wants to see this fail but we have seen this movie before and doesn't end well.

I don't think so, if they can get the bugs worked and start shipping games especially to distributors in decent quantities they will sell fast, right now its only the pre-order folks that are pissed and rightly so, lots of guys have stated they would pick one up if was out there, I have to be positive and with this theme and how the great the game looks, sounds and plays from my perspective its going to work. I think Andrew while a nice fella just isn't a business man hopefully the investors know what there doing.

Saw the same thing with dutch pinball. The wheels completely fell off the cart and the smart people got out or at least tried to get their money back.

Others were still willing to foolishly throw money back at them saying they are going to work things out. It's incomprehensible.

These new investors are not going to invest in a company and start writing checks to refund deposits. Heck, JJP won't ever refund a deposit until someone takes the spot and they are established.

Not trying to get your money back and using all avenues at your disposal to do so is simply foolish.

Waiting for the game to ship is more foolish.

crazy times

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Obviously, anyone who pre-orders, especially from an unproven company, is taking a gamble and rolling the dice. And any company that uses customer's preorder money for business expenses rather than for the purchase of parts for the actual games is making a foolish move that will burn them later.

If you aren't comfortable with the possibility of losing your money, then don't preorder. I'm amazed at the number of people who keep making the same mistake.

If you want out of Aliens, here's your second chance--just keep in mind you probably won't get a third. You are luckier than most, considering all the people with JPop and Skit-B preorders lost everything, and DP isn't looking so hot now either.

As for the group of investors, I really hope they are able to turn things around. I would like to see some success stories in botique pinball for a change. Obviously, they are going to be prepared for a certain number of people who want out. If/when Aliens games start rolling off the production line and make it to distributors, then get one (but if the price is higher at that time, then so be it).

Congratulations, you win the prize for the most speculation in a single post.

If a bunch of people ask for refunds, it probably won't do that much damage.

These pre-orders are on Heighway's books as liabilities. To write off the liability for each individual order, Heighway must either deliver a pinball machine or a refund. It's going to cost Heighway a bunch of money either way. Delivering a machine should cost less than providing a refund so, to Heighway, the true cost of providing a refund is only the profit on that order, which will be lost. Supposedly, there isn't much profit in the current situation, so it shouldn't make that much of a difference.

The investors know the status of the balance sheets, and what must be done to deliver against the liabilities, before they can even think about building machines for profit.

I'm not terribly worried, but I only have a downpayment at stake. Staying in for now.

Maritime

Gravity

Bird Law (resized).png

I've known a lot of attorneys (and one in my family) and their area of qualified expertise is *extremely* narrow.

But because of the complexities in the law it HAS to be this way... that's why most smart lawyers are pretty close-mouthed.
A thoughtless remark or throwaway opinion on something they are not completely confident about can spoil a career quick.

Maybe not under a pseudonym in a hobby forum but you get the point...

I thought the "Times are 'a changing" was their attempt at a Bob Dylan quote to lighten the mood and personalize the message

The second line does indeed sound like something taken from a Chinese app in the IOS App Store however.

I have no doubt the investors anticipated a certain % of refund requests, and have the funds ready for it.

If this % is far higher than what they predicted, I don't think the extra $ would be the major problem in their eyes - the lack of confidence of their customer base could.

To those who preordered, how about adding a new option?

"We thank you for having supported HP - we understand your frustration and your will to get your money back. What we are offering you is a complete refund, minus $250 (or $500) than can be kept as a deposit for the game. This way your risk is minimized, but you do not lose your spot and you will not be affected by future price increases. Balance due when *your* game ships"

An offer like this would be telling - check who is actually still interested in the game.

The time for guessing and speculating monetary figures has long gone. No disrespect feller but putting up figures like '2 million' could convince somebody that everything is rosy and they commit their money to a game. We simply don't know yet what the financial situation is and until we do speculation can be very misleading.
Let's just see where it goes eh ? And let us hope they pull it out of the fire, everyone gets their game and Heighway Pinball becomes a successful manufacturer of pinball machines for years to come.

If they supply a machine that costs more than its original sale price to make etc, they would prefer to give refunds as the loss is less financially.
I would guess 75% of people who back out will repurchase when available at distributors at a higher price. This would turn a loss oer machine to a profit.

Something tells me the new Heighway won't be successful until we see this:

IMG_8060 (resized).JPG

And while on the topic, did anyone order Alien from Home Leisure Direct? Guessing it would be a safe way to buy one, since I'm guessing you'd be guaranteed a refund if they went under. Still showing as available......