(Topic ID: 35619)

Is MM always #1? Reality check on rankings


By ovfdfireman

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 65 posts
  • 42 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by markmon
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 65 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 6 years ago

In light of the occasional over taking of the number 1 rank. I would like to get some thoughts. Not that avengers is the one, but is MM always expected to be the best game forever and ever? Don't you guys think it is possible that masses might just like another game more than MM at least for a few months?

I think most MM owners (like me) love the game and won't sell it because it's definately a keeper, but most of us don't see it as the very best game we own. Granted my favorite is different than my wife's favorite. But most won't tell you MM is hands down their favorite.

Is having MM as number 1 just a tradition?
Is it ranked there only because of price?
Are people simply of the herd mentality and adjust their rankings to fit the flow?

No doubt there are people giving rankings with the intent of manipulation, which I disagree with (it defeats the spirit of the ratings system).

I really enjoy old and new titles, but I guess it doesn't worry me when MM slips from number one, I really hope there are some new games and game ideas that are better and more fun than MM, that would be awesome!

As far as the talk of cutting or deleting ratings, you can't do that, all the opinions mount up the the ratings! Just because we don't like them doesn't mean we manipulate them. Either by going in with a bogus rating either positive or negative. Or by going in after the fact and say this one does or doesn't count towards the ratings. We just hope everyone rates honestly with no agenda

#2 6 years ago

I think it would be interesting to see ratings divided into groups like System 11's, Williams/Bally DMD, Late Model Stern, etc. I'm probably in the minority on that, but it seems like it would be better than splitting them into just EMs and Solid States.

Maybe more people would be happy if there could be a #1 late model Stern and a #1 Williams/Bally DMD at the same time, LOL.

#3 6 years ago

It's not my #1, but I'm sure that enough people really like it so that it's justified as being ranked #1.

I think ranking by era would be a good idea as well....

#4 6 years ago

TZ was a couple of years ago.TZ,AFM and MM are terrific Games,but have been passed up by some of the newer Stern's,and we are yet to see WOZ and even the rumored next generation of Stern's with the newer technology.Good times ahead for pinball!!!

#5 6 years ago

I tend to think the rankings are dumb.

#6 6 years ago

Something has to be #1. What do you propose should be #1? I can give arguments against any game not being worthy of the position.

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from Jgel:

I tend to think the rankings are dumb.

+1

#8 6 years ago

Check out the top 100 today. I quess not?

#9 6 years ago

MM is the best game I have played to date. Hands down the best (I only rank TAF slightly higher because of emotional tie on a personal level).

The ratings on pinside are pretty much worthless on the greater picture but do a nice enough job of letting someone that is new to the hobby get a general feeling for 'good' games and 'bad' games on average.

There are viable ways to improve the current system without overt bias and also decrease people from manipulating, but it does not appear to be a goal of the site.

#10 6 years ago
Quoted from davewtf:

Something has to be #1. What do you propose should be #1? I can give arguments against any game not being worthy of the position.

Oh I agree, we all could. I am definately not arguing that point. I think MM is worthy of the spot. I am simply saying I am surprised it doesn't move in and out of the position more than it does, and we shouldn't freak out when it moves out of the top spot.

Challenge to everyone. When you look at your rankings.....is your favorite game at the top of your list? Is your second favorite the next? I just did this and realized it was not, I must have fallen into the herd mentality myself. I didn't want to upset the rankings I guess. I made a few tweaks, all fair and justified. After all rankings are your opinion and what ever is on the top should be YOUR best game ever! My favorite is hands down AFM, spiderman really ranks up there but my rankings don't reflect it well because I really enjoy TAF, MB, and MM and these score higher on cool toys, looks, and quality (and that beat out game play)

#11 6 years ago

Ratings are good in a sense that is 200 or more people rank a game and it ranks high then for me its worth finding one to play.

I'm still trying to find Bride of Pinbot, Cactus Canyon, Mousin Around, and Centaur somewhere to play. I've played most of the top 100 with the exception of these.

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from ovfdfireman:

Challenge to everyone. When you look at your rankings.....is your favorite game at the top of your list? Is your second favorite the next?

NO. We are given 100 points and can adjust them between 1 & 10 within a given rating category. I can't place enough emphasis on the two categories i deem most important (fun & lastability) to get the data *exactly* right. I don't go back and fudge other numbers to get the right final number as that compromises the data.

#13 6 years ago

I think it comes down to less people hating MM than other games.

For example ACDC (LE) does absolutely nothing for me..and neither does Tron (LE). Thus my ratings reflect that. Tron was a dream theme as I'm a arcade collector as well...I went on a mission to like the game..and I just couldn't

IMHO Stern has gone backwards in technology with 'photoshopped' artwork and horrible DMD 'movie' clips and even worse callouts. Their attempt with Xmen was a great step forward but the new code blows. Then with Advengers..they went right back to the clipped art stuff

I played MM last night for about an hour...it's really is the total package. Great humor...awesome voices...incredible art package and a really 'fun' game to play. I've been in the 'it's not worth it' category for the longest time on MM....even when it was like 5k 7 years ago. I'm not sure I'm there anymore

#14 6 years ago

It may not be my #1, but it sure is nice to have!

#15 6 years ago

MM is not my #1 as Tron or IM holds that rank.

I like 3-5 minute games where if you have a good game you can extend that to 15-20 minutes. LOTR and some others have 20-30 minute ball times consistently

MM is a nice balance. I can play 15-20 minutes and reach King Payne. Of course the rest of the board is not lit up completely. Its just that well balanced game with everything from humor, to skill to being easy enough for the casual player to have a nice 5 minute plus game.

#16 6 years ago

I'm not sold on it being #1 but, its certainly a top 5 pin. Is it a 20k pin? Nooooo way not even a 10k pin IMO. Its still one I would love to own.

#17 6 years ago

No.1?? Yes, the 'pinball market' says it commands a #1 price but a #1 game to some might be a classic Stern or such. Personally I don't think I should own a Medieval Maddness because some people say its the best all around game to own...this reflecting on its price/demand. In fact, I would rather take the money it costs to own M.M. and buy a few older games(EM's included). John

#18 6 years ago

MM is a great game. It is not #1 in my book, but it is up there. I do agree that there has to be a number one however.

#19 6 years ago

I take a lot more out of thoughtful rating comments than I do from the place a title falls in the numbers. How much better or worse is a game with a 1 - 1.5 difference in overall average? The answer mostly depends on... MY opinion. I have several pinsiders that I glance through the comments section specifically to see what they say because I respect what they say. Regardless though, that is only a guideline.

In the Avengers thread there are a few who say they do not even rate machines because they find the system flawed. That is a shame because most of those that have stated this are people that I WOULD look to for opinions if they were there.

#20 6 years ago
Quoted from bigdaddy07:

I'm not sold on it being #1 but, its certainly a top 5 pin. Is it a 20k pin? Nooooo way not even a 10k pin IMO. Its still one I would love to own.

Totally agree....I think MM is a $7k or $8k pin, but not 10 or 12 grand....yikes!

Great game overall!

#21 6 years ago

I would love to see ranking by era. Some great games are lost down the list because they are not a dmd. I would like to see:

early EM (pre 1950)
EM
Solid State
Alpha Numeric
DMD (ending at 1999)
DMD (Stern Era)

I know that's a lot of categories, but I think the play styles are varied enough to warrant it. Halo is a "better" game than Doom, but they weren't released at the same time.

#22 6 years ago

I view the rankings as a very general indicator of how a game is perceived in the pin community. I view the difference between #2 and #8 as largely meaningless. But the difference between #2 and #72 tells me something, unless one of them is a recent release. It seems that it takes about a year for pins to find their true level in the rankings. Then you need to add in personal preferences. For instance rock band pins drive me crazy with the repetitive music, so I personally filter those out of my comparisons. The rankings are a useful but largely approximate tool.

Post edited by txstargazer3 : Typo

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from ovfdfireman:

I think most MM owners (like me) love the game and won't sell it because it's definately a keeper, but most of us don't see it as the very best game we own. Granted my favorite is different than my wife's favorite. But most won't tell you MM is hands down their favorite.

PLEASE SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!!!

MM is my favorite pin ever. Bar none. Period.

Why do you even say that most MM owners won't tell you that it is hands down their favorite? How the hell do you think it got to be the number 1 rated pin? Hint: because a hell of a lot of people have it as their favorite, or at least very close to it!

#24 6 years ago

Favorite and best are two different things.

#25 6 years ago

I think AFM is my number one pin, but I think Totan and TZ are up there. I really have not put much time on a MM but believe if I get that opportunity , it would be a top 5 pin. I have a hard time putting a stern in the top 5 mix, but am getting more open-minded as time passes. Have yet to put any time on an acdc le or tron le.

#26 6 years ago
Quoted from bigdaddy07:

I'm not sold on it being #1 but, its certainly a top 5 pin. Is it a 20k pin? Nooooo way not even a 10k pin IMO. Its still one I would love to own.

But it IS a 10k pin. Just because you (or I) wouldn't pay that doesn't doesn't change the facts. Of course personal preference is subjective, but when you add in objective data like earnings numbers and resell value I think MM is a pin that deserves to be #1.

And I think a case could be made for TAF or TZ as well.

#27 6 years ago
Quoted from krupa:

But it IS a 10k pin. Just because you (or I) wouldn't pay that doesn't doesn't change the facts.

That's why I added IMO. That means "in my opinion". Please read my whole post as I already address this argument.

#28 6 years ago

if it goes down at #2 or #3 or worst, will the price change? from 10k+ to 6-7k?

#29 6 years ago

Why does the price tag on this pin ALWAYS come up when discussing how good it is?? price has nothing to do with how fun it is to play,I have mm and enjoy my sm way more.

#30 6 years ago

My Top 5 DMDs are:

1. Tron LE
2. AFM
3. MM
4. MB
5. TZ

I also agree that we need to separate rankings by categories or decades.

Marcus

#31 6 years ago

my top 5 dmd's are:

White Water
Tron (le or regular, I like em both)
Lotr
JD
Shadow

#32 6 years ago
Quoted from bigdaddy07:

That's why I added IMO. That means "in my opinion". Please read my whole post as I already address this argument.

I did read the whole post. Just misunderstood it I guess.

#33 6 years ago

It's the consensus #1.....it could be the consensus #1 and not even be #1 for anybody; in theory. So long as enough people put in there top 3 or so it averages up to #1 overall.

I have never rated MM because I have only played it virtually..... unfortunately I think a crapload of people have rated it that have never played the real thing. It does seem to be one of the better virtual pins.

I also think the high price creates a possible illusion of superiority. It's the best because it costs the most.

Or, it's the best because so and so said so and he REALLY knows what's he's talking about.

#34 6 years ago
Quoted from misfitdart:

Why does the price tag on this pin ALWAYS come up when discussing how good it is?

Because many people wonder, "is this game fun enough to add to my collection?"

I think it's a great game, but I would be disappointed with the fun it provides for the price. The opportunity cost of ownership is very high.

I suspect many long-time owners have become bored and seldom play it, yet keep it because of the equity or status. It would be difficult to buy back again and lose all the inherent value.

#35 6 years ago
Quoted from misfitdart:

Why does the price tag on this pin ALWAYS come up when discussing how good it is?? price has nothing to do with how fun it is to play

I agree completely, and you can be sure that if anything, MM actually gets some lower ratings based solely on the fact that it costs what it does (even though price is not a factor in the ratings).

#36 6 years ago
Quoted from RTS:

Because many people wonder, "is this game fun enough to add to my collection?"
I think it's a great game, but I would be disappointed with the fun it provides for the price. The opportunity cost of ownership is very high.
I suspect many long-time owners have become bored and seldom play it, yet keep it because of the equity or status. It would be difficult to buy back again and lose all the inherent value.

I agree with all of this but the the price tag has nothing to do with the individual that is playing the game,if you were to find a mm on route and played it nobody would be saying "this is a great game for a quarter but it would'nt be if I had to put in 75cents"

#37 6 years ago

My guess is that at this point most people who buy MM at $10,000 are doing so because they think it will eventually be $15,000 and then $20,000.....etc... And they might be right.

I don't think it provides $10,000 worth of entertainment when you compare it to all the other pins out there. I mean is it really 5x more fun than a JD, JM, JP, Congo, DM, TFTC, BSD......etc......

#38 6 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I agree completely, and you can be sure that if anything, MM actually gets some lower ratings based solely on the fact that it costs what it does (even though price is not a factor in the ratings).

I have noticed that as well in the comments that people leave on the rankings,8 out of 10 comments seem to mention price.

#39 6 years ago

Last time there was a worthy contender a certain element of the community couldn't cope with it challenging the established titles, and it was heavily trollvoted. The rankings are useless.

#40 6 years ago

I LOVE redheads so I am going to vote blondes lower........I also love me some fat chicks so anybody who likes 'em slim must be stupid........rankings are useless,just an example fellas I love 'em all lol

#41 6 years ago
Quoted from ovfdfireman:

Are people simply of the herd mentality and adjust their rankings to fit the flow?

This. I was really surprised when I got into the hobby a few years ago at the herd mentality of so many pinball guys.

#42 6 years ago
Quoted from system11:

Last time there was a worthy contender a certain element of the community couldn't cope with it challenging the established titles, and it was heavily trollvoted. The rankings are useless.

Robin throws out the outliers from what i understand.

#43 6 years ago

I think you guys are missing something here.
Ratings need to be updated as time passes.
MM might have been a "Perfect 10" the day it was released. Maybe it still is but games will (or should) diminish in ratings as other newer games are released.
As per some of my other posts, if you had put an AC/DC or Tron beside an MM way back when, I think it would have blown MM away with the LEDs, sounds, etc. Nothing against MM, but generally speaking, the older pins don't hold up to the newer ones in reality, yet they are still in the top spots on the charts.
The exception to this of course, is fun factor. Maybe MM IS the most fun game out there. If it is, that's a great reason for it to maintain the top spot.
The only way I see these ratings being more accurate is a combination of current value (average of recent sales -good luck inputting all the data) and if everyone were to update their reviews/ratings on an annual basis.
Of course, with more TAF owners out there than anything else, TAF might be swayed a little but then again, you're never going to get it perfect.

#44 6 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

I think you guys are missing something here.
Ratings need to be updated as time passes.
MM might have been a "Perfect 10" the day it was released. Maybe it still is but games will (or should) diminish in ratings as other newer games are released.
As per some of my other posts, if you had put an AC/DC or Tron beside an MM way back when, I think it would have blown MM away with the LEDs, sounds, etc. Nothing against MM, but generally speaking, the older pins don't hold up to the newer ones in reality, yet they are still in the top spots on the charts.
The exception to this of course, is fun factor. Maybe MM IS the most fun game out there. If it is, that's a great reason for it to maintain the top spot.
The only way I see these ratings being more accurate is a combination of current value (average of recent sales -good luck inputting all the data) and if everyone were to update their reviews/ratings on an annual basis.
Of course, with more TAF owners out there than anything else, TAF might be swayed a little but then again, you're never going to get it perfect.

I owned a NIB AC/DC and thought it sucked and that had NOTHING to do with the price tag or how new it was,my sopranos is more fun even without the LEDS,but that is my rating not yours.

#45 6 years ago

I would be interested in seeing which game is ranked #1 by the most people on Pinside rather than just looking at the cumulative score.-Robin, is this possible? One thing that helps MM out a lot is that there aren't many people that dislike the game. As opposed to a game like TZ or TAF that are more love-it or hate-it kind of games. I think most people have MM ranked in their top 10 or even top 5, and rightfully so! It is a great game. I'm not sure if the same can be said for TZ or TAF. I just wonder whether a game like TZ or TAF could be ranked #1 more often than MM?-Maybe not, but seeing the data would be pretty cool.

#46 6 years ago
Quoted from misfitdart:

I also love me some fat chicks so anybody who likes 'em slim must be stupid

You meant "Widebodies", right?

#47 6 years ago
Quoted from misfitdart:

Chambahz said:

I think you guys are missing something here.
Ratings need to be updated as time passes.
MM might have been a "Perfect 10" the day it was released. Maybe it still is but games will (or should) diminish in ratings as other newer games are released.
As per some of my other posts, if you had put an AC/DC or Tron beside an MM way back when, I think it would have blown MM away with the LEDs, sounds, etc. Nothing against MM, but generally speaking, the older pins don't hold up to the newer ones in reality, yet they are still in the top spots on the charts.
The exception to this of course, is fun factor. Maybe MM IS the most fun game out there. If it is, that's a great reason for it to maintain the top spot.
The only way I see these ratings being more accurate is a combination of current value (average of recent sales -good luck inputting all the data) and if everyone were to update their reviews/ratings on an annual basis.
Of course, with more TAF owners out there than anything else, TAF might be swayed a little but then again, you're never going to get it perfect.
I owned a NIB AC/DC and thought it sucked and that had NOTHING to do with the price tag or how new it was,my sopranos is more fun even without the LEDS,but that is my rating not yours.

That's a very valid point (that no matter what, people's opinions will vary) and it reminds me of something a friend said recently that I agree with wholeheartedly as well:
Pinball technology hasn't changed much recently so the games that were fun initially, are still fun. Sure, AC/DC has a cannon, but MM has a castle... TOTAN has a Genie... TOM has a trunk...
I suppose when you take the older looking games and add LEDs and mods, it really does put them on a level playing field (or very close to it) to compete with most of today's new releases.
If that is accurate, then the ratings really ought to be all about the fun factor.

#48 6 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Nothing against MM, but generally speaking, the older pins don't hold up to the newer ones in reality, yet they are still in the top spots on the charts.
The exception to this of course, is fun factor.

Love when "facts" like this come out on either side.

#49 6 years ago

I didn't say it was a fact. It's my opinion. Most comments on here are, no?

And I'd be open to hearing anyone explain how Indiana Jones is rated higher than Tron and AC/DC.
Especially if you can also explain why IJ isn't worth as much.

Here's a question: with a few exceptions (like BBB, for example), should average selling price replace the overall rating? People are voting with their dollars, no?

#50 6 years ago
Quoted from misfitdart:

I agree with all of this but the the price tag has nothing to do with the individual that is playing the game,if you were to find a mm on route and played it nobody would be saying "this is a great game for a quarter but it would'nt be if I had to put in 75cents"

This is a good point. On route, MM is reasonably priced in line with other games.

I think if MM were comparably triple the cost to play as it is to buy, an individual might not enjoy the game as much. If he has to pay $2.25 for one game, he might find playing three other games to be more fun.

I understand the price should have no bearing on the fun. But it kind of does.

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