Pinball is not very welcoming to women. It's not overtly hostile to them, but it's hard to argue that men aren't the ones being catered to. At a certain point, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah, but you're so fired up about me using the word "diversity" you defaulted to some sort of all lives matter clenched fists of rage. I'm not "dishing" on white men, in fact, I'm a white man. I'm saying when you have a bunch of white dudes making games for white dudes...you end up with...themes targeted for white dudes. If people want to see more themes geared towards not men, you gotta have not men on both sides of the equation. I'm a broken record at this point so I'll let it go, but if your main takeaway here is that I think white people = bad because I suggested there aren't alot of women in pinball, then you gotta do some self-reflection on that, I'm not gonna be able to change your mind.

THese conversations tend to devolve quickly into defensive name-calling and die-on-the-hill social battles. But when you go back to the original point, it just seems hard to believe that there are ZERO feasible low-risk themes that could appeal more directly to women and would do good business.

If you can’t think of one you really aren’t trying very hard.

I don't know what necessarily makes something a 'girl' theme (other than like, Barbie, but I know for a fact my fiancee would have no interest in having a barbie pin in the house), but I would love to see more variety in pin themes in general. Sailor Moon would be an instant-buy for me, as would most of the commonly suggested animes (Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Dragonball Z, Evangelion, etc etc). Some sort of pop music theme would be an interesting change from classic rock. I'd love to see more original themes executed as well as TNA was; that game has a surprising appeal to casuals of all demographics for having no name attached to it and no big toys on the playfield (kickass music, lights, + art will do that).

For those that don't understand the need to branch out on the themes a bit more, because it's predominantly 40+ y/o men buying these games: you're right, and this was exactly Harley Davidson's strategy too. It didn't work out well for them and they've been scrambling to pivot and market to younger buyers as their target demographic continues to shrink.

Love how you feel comfortable being openly racist on this forum, but aren't comfortable saying "fuck". [Removed]

Wizard of Oz and Willy Wonka seem like female geared theams to me.

Sigh. I don't want whatever you think "forced diversity" is for the sake of it. AGAIN - I don't think we should put the names of every woman in America into a hat and draw them to decide who gets to run a pinball company. I am saying if you want products that don't reflect the views/ideas/whatever of one type of people, you need more than one type of person designing and buying these products.

The part I wish people would focus on is this: "You aren't going to have a meaningful number of women on the business end unless you have a meaningful number interested in the product to begin with."

The default response shouldn't be a defensive "well you can't force diversity!", it should be "why aren't women interested in this"? Again, I can't self-reflect for people, but maybe it'll help, I dunno.

Love all these people touting how there are low risk themes to sell 6-12.5k luxury TOYS.

There is no such thing as low risk. Manufacturers avoid unlicensed themes because it is too high risk. They stick with what is safe. They stick with what sells.

Not one person here is about to put their money where their mouth is and build a girl centric theme even as a boutique piece. They will sit around, whine about a lack of diversity. They won't look at the hobby's history. They won't look at what a current breakdown of buyer demographics look like.

No, they will sit around and complain because that is all anyone on this site is good for.

I am not having any touble finding titles My family enjoys.Wonder Woman may have a decent chance of success.
Maybe Heart but that may be too late.

I literally JUST said I'd buy my wife a My Little Pony machine.....

Im confused...are we getting a Wonder Woman pin or not?

No, it was a conversation about what female focused games would market and sell well.

You really don't think a Furiosa-themed game would sell? Fury Road is one of the best action movies of all time and people want more.

You don't think Dolly Parton would sell? It's the female version of "old white guy dinosaur bands" that sell. The original in the 1970s sold well and remains popular to this day.

These would not be high-risk properties. It's not like I'm suggesting American Girl dolls or something.

I think people are DYING for an excuse to buy something a little different. Give them a chance to do it.

It doesn't matter what color you are, how old your are, what's inbetween your legs, or what you like in the bedroom. Pinball can be fun for anyone. I would think it was a poor business decision to make a pin that caters exclusively to those outside of current pinball customers.

With that said, there is one theme that I believe appeals more strongly to women than to men, is family friendly, and would be open to anyone.

Harry Potter.

There is one pin I have permission to buy sight unseen from my wife... and that is Harry Potter.

I'm not sure that's how it works in real life. See the Bowie/MTV video above -- MTV didn't think its audience wanted to see videos by black artists and therefore didn't play them. Turns out once they started playing MJ that their audience was very much interested in seeing videos by black artists. The point is that companies rarely have a perfect grasp of what their customers would be interested in purchasing. And being run by humans, there's unavoidably some level of "I like X and dislike Y, and my customers will therefore like X and dislike Y" bias that leads them to miss out on potential to grow their market by drawing in new kinds of customers.

Harry Potter

I play with a lot of women in league, and this topic comes up fairly regularly. And for the most part, the women enjoy the old school, often times campy, nostalgic, machismo-filled fantasy themes just as much as the guys. But these women are mostly pinheads. "Big cross section", I know, but it's what I've noticed over the years.

My wife and her "normy" friends? They literally don't care, and would never buy a game anyways. Even if it was themed as Cabernet Sauvignon, Kate Spade, All Male Review, or The View.

I'm no anthropologist, but I'm guessing it's along the lines why they don't sell a lot of purple (other than Plum Crazy Dodges with a honkin' V8), pink, or other colors generally associated with femininity cars: because even women don't buy them. CARGUMENT!!!!!!!

ok?

But that has nothing to do with pointing out it's mostly white men in charge of picking and choosing themes.

I get it. You're satisfied. I don't get why people pointing out the lack of diversity in themes or the people who make them is troubling to you. No one is saying anything ugly about them. You're getting defensive about something for unclear reasons.

Why do the fans care so much about how much money Stern makes or sales potential of a theme? It's not their problem to deal with and Stern doesn't need them to defend the company choices. Some of us just want something a little more different. That's all.

I haven't seen one mention of routes - are operators no longer considered for themes? When I go to the bar I see greater numbers and more diversity in players than ever. Removing the vitriol from this topic for a second: is the route business no longer a major consideration for manufacturers?

I know you are new around here but it doesn't seem like this is gonna happen.

I do remember one hilarious episode were some pinball detective came up with the fact that JK Rowling AND Gary Stern were both in New York City at the same time, and that this must mean a deal was imminent!

I believe it is, much more than people here realize. We really have no idea what the percentage of route/vs. home buyers is, and there's no doubt it has slanted more toward home buyers than ever before.

But there's still plenty of operators and locations out there, and take at the coin box still matters for the big boys (IE, Stern.)

Seems strange to me then that there is so much focus on the one viewpoint as who should be catered to. Oh.. wait...

It won't help. It will make you look like some SJW and accomplish jack all because you are asking this on a pinball forum with no means to affect anything.

You don't even ask a few basic questions.

What does it take to be a pinball owner?
Option A) an aptitude to repair. A willingness to take long hours of research in order to repair and maintain a complex machine. A willingness to invest in specialized equipment to maintain. Often this takes years to acquire. Value in one's collection is often gained by flipping machines involving driving hours away with large sums of cash to buy from total strangers.
Option B) deep ass pockets. Able to afford 6-12.5k machines. A willingness to spend several hundred dollars anytime one stops workings.

Let me know how many women are interested in option A.

Furiousa is not *female centric*. Furiousa is based off a well established action series. I have 0 problems with the theme, but the theme would sell simply because it is that mad max franchise and you have a lot of fans to sell to.

You would. One person does not prove anything. You need hundreds. I do not see hundreds of people lining up for MLP. Go make it happen, prove me wrong.

Oh, I'm sure YOU'VE never suggested a theme that you want without screaming "well if no one else is making it, then I will." Your argument is a joke and your name is appropriate.

I would love to buy a female themed pin for my daughter so we can better enjoy a hobby together. I would buy a Wonder Woman pin before a lot of the IPs being rumored.

Right, so it would be a good female-oriented theme then. The main character will be a female. The game will be named after a female character. She would be the focus of the artwork and gameplay. Just like if they put out a "Black Widow" game.

Seems like a pretty low-risk way to test the market out to me. There are plenty of other examples that would work with this model.

I think there is also a willful decision to turn a blind eye to the latest released themes, as I think they have moved more to the middle as far as appeal to both sexes as any in recent memory.

TMNT - loved by tons of female fans
POTC - girls dig the pirates
Star Wars - have you seen the cosplay scene by female fans?
Aerosmith - probably more female fans of the band than male
Guns and Roses - ever been to a concert? loads of females!
Metallica - see above
Elvira - revered around the world as a inspirational female icon
Avengers - Disney/Marvel has done an amazing job at attracting females to all of their franchises
Deadpool - females will watch anything with Ryan Reynolds in it
Walking Dead - powerful female characters led to a fervent female fanbase
Stranger Things - more of my female friends are hardcore fans of this series than my male ones.

Long gone are the days of any game with Dave Christensen art, Gordon Morrison art, etc.

See, the fact you think women aren't interested in reading, fixing things, willing to drive, or have money is the exact problem I can't help you with. Hard to believe when people like you think of women as generally incompetent and lazy, more of them don't want to come play pinball with us.

Theme integration and styling towards a female audience has little to do with it.

Confronting and irradiating the overt and longstanding misogyny of the old white dudes in the community has a lot to do with it.

Black Rose is pretty bad-ass

Based on your own logic - if you don't own a pinball company you can't criticize them - I can only assume you are a woman since you are the spokesperson for what women like?

Only one of a dozen idiots on this forum that somehow thing I am going to give two shits that someone uses 4th grade level insults.

For fun, did go ask my gf why she doesn't want to buy pinball machines.

"Because I'd rather spend the money on something else."

What do you think of a Barbie themed game?
"That's stupid and would put off a lot of women."

How about Golden Girls?
*Quizical look*

Sailor Moon?
*Chortles*

It would appeal to fans of mad max fury road and if the new movie does well, fans of that. I don't think it hurts anything. I just don't see it proving a market for women. I'd love a furiousa themed pin and I am a guy.

Only spent over a decade trying to interest every girl I date in this hobby. Locally we have 1 girl who is both an excellent top tier tournament player and an amazing tech. I know of 0 other women who will repair games in the area. I know of just about every guy trying to get his S/O involved in this hobby. But yes, tell me how I have no experience in this matter.

Also, do not put words in my mouth troll. I said women are not into this. That has nothing to do with them being lazy or incompetent. I haven't known a single 20 something woman who wants to show up to a strangers door with several thousand in cash. The think I am an idiot for doing so. It is an excellent way to get robbed. They don't do that because they don't want to get murdered.

Not to be sexist but:

1. Women read more than men.
2. Men are more likely to try to fix something mechanical or electronic themselves than women. Women are just as capable as men at fixing this sort of thing, but they are less likely to have the skills and experience to do so.
3. Women are more hesitant to drive 4 hours each way, carrying a large amount of cash into a strangers basement (most likely a middle aged male), and haul a 250# pinball machine up a set of stairs into there probably not a truck vehicle, drive it 4 hours home, and set it up on their own.

Damn its tough to be an old white dude these days...

Maybe because there are so few games that appeal to women....

That's the trick, isn't it?

I do think there are some real opportunities for them to broaden the market a little, and maybe win some good press while they are at it. Like I said, it doesn't have to be "Susan B Anthony, The Pinball Adventure" do that.

Did they pull Bonanza out of syndication?!?

Women already think pinball machine prices are absurd.

I work in a building full of women who enjoy the titles I bring in, when I start talking prices they think we're insane and I have not even gotten started talking about new pins.

Making "a women's title" aimed at women hoping for boosted sales would be suicidal. There are some themes mentioned above that would appeal to a wider audience, some franchises do well.

Thank God for this thread. The moderators were getting bored around here.

So, after all your rambling, you land on women don't want to buy games because they are afraid of the men selling them, because they have a preconceived notion that the men in the hobby selling them the games, would take their money and kill them.

You've concluded women are not in this hobby because of the men in this hobby (such as you). It took a few posts, but you (although accidently) made my point for me.

The number of men speaking for women in this thread is also excellent at proving my point. A bunch of dudes letting us all know what women think and what they are interested in. There is nothing that would suggest any of these things are true aside from your preexisting views of women.

And again, if the "women are scared of the pinball men" point doesn't give you pause for self-reflection, then well, again, can't help ya.

As a maintenance director I disagree.

Women are wired different then men. All the nurses I work with I could not do their job, nor am I interested.

I work with mechanical devices and very good at it.

On the other hand I have seen female nurses unable to install batteries in a tv remote even with a diagram at the bottom of the device.

The industry is weighted heavy towards women because it is suited to their nurturing wiring.

It does. You made me see the light.

You are a troll. A sad, bored troll looking to kill time by stirring up shit on the internet.

I don't think this argument holds any water at all, there are plenty of men in this hobby who don't fix their own machines.

And that's the issue right there.

I'm not saying a company should put out a woman centric pin, because they won't, because it won't sell. But it sure wouldn't hurt if men in this hobby started caring a little less about the theme and a little more about if the game is fun to play. It's amazing to me how much men in this hobby cry about themes they don't like on their toys.

That or they name dumb themes that, in their minds, women must surely like enough to want to spend several grand on. And then shit on those themes because they purposefully picked a dumb theme to begin with. Like no shit grown women don't want a Polly Pocket Pinball.

We just have to face the facts, that some hobbies are simply more appealing to one sex than the other.

NOT because it's a "boys club" or a "girls club", just because that's how it is.

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Let's take Astronomy. We have 700+ registered members in our club, two are female (that does not mean that other females don't come out to observe occasionally, but they are not due paying members).

A friend of mine has owned a custom telescope factory for 30 years. He says ZERO females have ever bought a telescope, except explicitly as a gift for their son or husband.

There is nothing **sexist** about astronomy or telescopes that I can think of, but it's just not a hobby generally perused by women.
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Or the Audiophile hobby. Women have better hearing than men, so you would think that they would naturally gravitate towards great sound systems or headphone rigs. Nope. Go to any Audio swap meet, or Head-Fi convention; not a single unaccompanied female (and I've attended them all over the world).

There is nothing **sexist** the Audiophile hobby that I can think of, but it's just not a hobby generally perused by women.
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Or Model Rocketry. 80 members in our club, and not a single female on the club's roster. A decade ago, one guys daughter was really building some nice, high altitude units. Once she hit ~15, she lost interest completely. Her dad said she is just into other things, but still loves Star Trek.

There is nothing **sexist** the Model Rocketry hobby that I can think of, but it's just not a hobby generally perused by women.
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big-scope0122 (resized).jpg

This right here is true I don’t see many female HVAC techs in the field.

I consider GOTLE to be a strong-female-themed pin. Daenerys Targaryen owns the dragons, and the dragons make the game. Also, half of the callouts were done by a woman.

Women generally love Game of Thrones, excellent example.