(Topic ID: 174978)

Reading em schematics


By pinheadpierre

2 years ago



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  • 29 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Electrocute
  • Topic is favorited by 11 Pinsiders

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#1 2 years ago

I recently acquired two non- working Williams em machines (Moulin Rouge and San Francisco). I have never worked on an em before. I have read a dozen or so threads/articles aimed at em beginners and watched nearly as many YouTube tutorials but am still stumped with the schematics. I have lots of questions, but let's start with two super basic ones:
1) What the heck is the start button called on the schematics?
2) Throughout the schematics are numbers in little boxes. I circled a few in red on the picture. What do these refer to?

I am trying best to get this game to start but the start button does absolutely nothing. All I get is the lock coil and gi turning on like they should when I press the left flipper button.

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#2 2 years ago

Start button = Replay Switch

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#3 2 years ago

The numbers in boxes are wire colors. These are coded, and there is a legend printed somewhere on the schematic.

First digit = solid wire color
second digit = tracer (little line stitched in)
Dash
Third digit = number of times this color combo has been used previously.

The first and second are for identification, and the third helps you understand that a wire --over here-- isn't the same as the one you're looking at --over there--.

If the start button does nothing, what happens when you hit the coin switch briefly?

As a Williams, there should be a limit switch on the credit unit (in the head) that tells the game credits are at max. Jumpering or adjusting this switch to closed will give you free play, if that's what you're after.

#4 2 years ago

The numbers in the box are the wire colors. There should be a chart for those on the schematic.

Do you have credits on the game, or is the game set to free play? There is a zero position switch on the credit unit that has to be closed for the start button to function. You don't want to jumper or bend the max replay switch closed. It should always be closed except when it reaches max credits, when it will open. It simply prohibits the game from adding more credits, it will not allow the game to be on free play.

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Start button = replay switch

Thank you - I suspected so but was not sure!

Quoted from bingopodcast:

The numbers in boxes are wire colors. These are coded, and there is a legend printed somewhere on the schematic.
First digit = solid wire color
second digit = tracer (little line stitched in)
Dash
Third digit = number of times this color combo has been used previously.
The first and second are for identification, and the third helps you understand that a wire --over here-- isn't the same as the one you're looking at --over there--.
If the start button does nothing, what happens when you hit the coin switch briefly?
As a Williams, there should be a limit switch on the credit unit (in the head) that tells the game credits are at max. Jumpering or adjusting this switch to closed will give you free play, if that's what you're after.

Thank you for explaining the color codes. It never would have crossed my mind that that is what the numbers in the boxes are.

Triggering the coin switch fired up the start sequence but it did not finish quite right. The score reels rest to 9009ish (see photo). Reset relay lifts big bar to reset big bank of relays on underside of playfield. Credit unit does NOT decrement. Ball is served. Flippers work. Scoring seems normal. Ball in play unit steps up to 5, but when ball 5 drains it just serves it again.

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#6 2 years ago

One thing to look at first are the switches mounted to the score reel - if the game actually started and scored correctly, it's also possible that the score reel (plastic) is not aligned properly. Check the zero position switches - when zero is displayed, the switches will actuate in a particular way. Look at the neighboring reels that DO show zero and it should be apparent.

Your game over problem is related either to the ball count unit or the game over relay (if this game has one).

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from bingopodcast:

One thing to look at first are the switches mounted to the score reel - if the game actually started and scored correctly, it's also possible that the score reel (plastic) is not aligned properly. Check the zero position switches - when zero is displayed, the switches will actuate in a particular way. Look at the neighboring reels that DO show zero and it should be apparent.
Your game over problem is related either to the ball count unit or the game over relay (if this game has one).

Thank you - I will continue my education/ investigation in these areas. Any suggestions on why the coin switch will start a game but not the start button. (I'm unsure what normal behavior is but shouldn't the coin switch just add a credit and not actually start a game?)

#8 2 years ago

Yes, if there are no credits on the credit reel, then the start button is effectively useless.

If you have your Jones Plugs set so that one coin = multiple credits, then it should put more than the initial game up on the credit reel.

Otherwise, it auto-starts - single player - why wait? The button is for playing replays, which is why it is labeled as 'replay button' on the schem.

If you want it to be free play, you'll need to observe the credit reel - you'll see one to two stacks of switches mounted to the backside of that reel.

If you manually press the credit add solenoid plunger (press one and look from the front of the game to make sure it says '1' - if it doesn't, press the other). When the credits tick all the way up, they will actuate one of the switch stacks. This is a configurable limit - so it might be 18, 24, 20, or other.

When the switch stack is actuated, you'll see a switch in the stack closed - this is the switch to jumper if you want free play.

The credit add and subtract solenoids will continue to fire as normal with this method, and you can reverse it easily if you choose to do so.

#9 2 years ago

I was not aware of the single player "why wait" design of the coin switch - makes sense. But since my credit wheel shows 5 credits, shouldn't the start button work? In other words, why does the credit unit work but not the start button if they're are credits on the unit?

#10 2 years ago

That means that either you have a switch that is out of adjustment on your score motor, or, more likely, the reverse issue to setting the machine to free play - the zero limit switch is being hit and telling the machine that there are NO credits on the machine.

I'll take a peek at the schematic snippet and see if it's there.

#11 2 years ago

Yep it is - look at the top part of the schematic (farthest left portion).

That is the 110V section - you have a coil marked the Replay Relay - work your way down from that coil and you'll see the switches in line...

1) Lock Relay Normally Closed switch OR Game Relay Normally Open.
2) Replay unit zero break switch (that's the likely candidate mentioned above)
3) Replay switch (the button itself).

Check those and see if you can follow what I called out. Make sure you check with the game off as these are 110V switches. If your game does not have an off switch (it's probably just the kickoff switch) - unplug it before checking.

#12 2 years ago

Here's the situation with switches on the credit unit.

No credits on game: Zero position open, max credit closed.
Credits on game: Zero position closed, max credit closed.
Max credits on game: Zero position closed, max position open.

Again, the max position switch has NOTHING to do with free play. All that switch does is keep the credit unit from advancing any further. The zero position switch, which is open when there are no credits on the game, is the switch that needs to be jumpered or bent closed permanently to allow for free play.

There's a n/c lock relay switch in the path to the replay relay. A motor 4B is in the path of the replay unit reset coil.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

Again, the max position switch has NOTHING to do with free play.

Whoops - yep, emsinkc is correct regarding free play. My mistake.

The switches I mentioned above are in line with the replay relay (that lets you play a replay), and the stepdown coil on the credit unit is pulsed by the 4b switch he mentions above.

#14 2 years ago

Hey Piere,

About a year and a half ago, I was in your same boat...

Quoted from pinheadpierre:

I have read a dozen or so threads/articles aimed at em beginners and watched nearly as many YouTube tutorials but am still stumped with the schematics.

...I, too, was really kind of in a haze about how to use a schematic.

But through the help of many benevolent pinsiders (not the least of which, BingoPodcast, is commenting on this thread already...so you're in good hands), I was able to make some steps toward understanding these electrical road-maps of our games. I did a couple write-ups, from a VERY BEGINNER PERSPECTIVE here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-swinger-restoration-and-eventual-retheme/page/10#post-2801567

~and a little further down that thread~

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-swinger-restoration-and-eventual-retheme/page/11#post-2807045

Perhaps that will help a little.

To my surprise, I recently used the aforementioned schematic reminders to work my way through a recent bout of trouble-shooting all by my lonesome. It was pretty empowering.

All the best with your new acquisitions!
Ryan

#15 2 years ago

Except when he's wrong! Sorry for the confusion.

#16 2 years ago

Schematics are a funny thing. When you first start looking at them, you're going, WTF is going on here? What does all this mean. Then someone give you a shove in the right direction, and all of a sudden the light comes on, and it looks so simple and straightforward to you. Now, there's still some of the circuits that are complex and you won't understand them as readily, but just keep working on it, you'll get there.

#17 2 years ago

Success! There were multiple culprits. Dirty contacts on the game over relay and a badly misadjusted switch on the game relay. Thank you as always for the help. I had been pulling my hair out for days on this. Now that I know what the problem is and am armed with a bit more schematic reading ability it makes more sense. Now on to adjusting those score reels, setting up free play and cosmetics.

Thanks again!

2 weeks later
#18 2 years ago

Not to brag - just to affirm that the help I received here really did elevate my schematic understanding, I was able to work through a doa San Francisco by myself using the schematics to trace down multiple problems and get the machine running again. This is fun even when it's kinda frustrating. Thanks again to everyone for your help!

4 months later
#19 2 years ago

Okay - I'm back. I have been deep into Moulin Rouge playfield restoration and am putting the machine back together. I have reconnected everything I disconnected and (I think) put everything back the way I found it.

The problem is that I have been struggling for the past couple days trying to get through startup again. Two playfield insert lights are out (3,4 and 5 at the top of the playfield) and the center jet bumper locks on at or near the end of the startup sequence.

Any helpful suggestions for what to check would be appreciated.

#20 2 years ago

Correction - sometimes it is the 100 pt relay that locks on, sometimes the jet locks on.

#21 2 years ago

Lamps are an easy thing to troubleshoot. First make sure the machine is unplugged. By taking a 9 volt battery with a jumper, contact each lamp socket to test the bulb and socket. If the sockets spin from the support, it's best to clean a small area at the base of the socket and apply solder to "bridge" the socket to the support.

#22 2 years ago

The sockets are all fine as are the bulbs.

#23 2 years ago

I do appreciate the lamp test tip, though. That's a lot more efficient than using a multimeter on each socket and swapping bulbs with known good ones!

#24 2 years ago

I'm giving up for the night. I just went through nearly the whole machine checking all of the switches and relays. I also checked the solidity of all of my fresh solder joints. Just as I was wrapping up the playfield came crashing down on my head. There was blood everywhere. Freaked me out pretty good for a few seconds but I told myself that head wounds always bleed a lot. Went inside and checked in the mirror - couldn't see it (too far back/too much hair) but my hair was soaked with blood. Thought about going to the emergency room but it really didn't hurt emergency room bad so I got in the shower to clean off and see if the bleeding would stop. It did, thank God. Feels like I got smacked by a coil bracket. I can feel a decent gouge in my head. Dang. I'm going to ice my head and go to bed. Enough with this for now.

#25 2 years ago

Whoa. I just had a 2" cut across my forehead finally heal up. Was down in a game and turned the wrong way and bam.
You might need stitches. ??

#26 2 years ago

When I acquire a machine, the first thing I do is remove the play field and lower board and go through them on the work bench. Much easier to see and get into areas to de-solder and solder new lamps, coils, etc.

1 month later
#27 2 years ago

Hello we also have a Moulin Rouge pinball machine but the game will not end or restart we have no idea how to fix that so does anyone have an idea on how that could be resolved?

#28 2 years ago

Smurphy -
I suggest starting a new thread, and let people know where you are located - US, Australia, Germany, etc. Give us a little bit of extra information - did this just start happening, you got the machine this way, etc. We can help, but we need to know more information.

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