(Topic ID: 251086)

Re-Game: 1985 Tag Team Pinball

By cobra18t

4 years ago


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  • 162 posts
  • 20 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by cobra18t
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There are 162 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 4.
#51 4 years ago

Hope everyone had a great Christmas! I have not worked on Tag Team much. I have been doing some intermittent testing for Hugh on the new STM32-based version of the Open Pinball Project firmware. The STM32 brings a lot more horsepower to the platform so I look forward to its final release which should also include native neopixel support!

I bought some 6.5" full range 3-way speakers that I plan to use for Tag Team. Since it is slated for a coffee table build, I am just going to have one speaker underneath. It is running mono audio anyway. With a basic class-D amplifier, it sounded pretty good...and loud.

1 week later
#52 4 years ago

STM32-based OPP testing will continue on Tag Team now that I have some adapter boards to make them work with my driver board...

IMG_20200107_210454887 (resized).jpgIMG_20200107_210454887 (resized).jpg
1 week later
#53 4 years ago

I love this project. Keep up the good work, it's great inspiration.

Are you planning on using the Raspberry Pi to do the audio? I've been looking at OPP with the new STM32 and have been wondering what the best way to do audio with it would be...

Added over 4 years ago:

edit: I read some more and of course the raspberry pi does audio! Silly me

#54 4 years ago

Thank you, @subspace_h. As you already found, yes I plan to run audio through the Pi and amplify it with a simple class-D board for the car speaker that I bought.

#55 4 years ago

Great news! I played my first game with the STM32 version of OPP today!

I forgot to swap the switch matrix rows and columns cables at first because @openpinballproj had to swap them to make all the I/O work on the STM32.

MPF was pretty easy to reconfigure. The main changes were moving from a single serial OPP chain to two USB "chains" and changing the COM ports.

IMG_20200117_173647492 (resized).jpgIMG_20200117_173647492 (resized).jpgIMG_20200117_173529223 (resized).jpgIMG_20200117_173529223 (resized).jpg
#56 4 years ago

On the Raspberry Pi and audio, I found that the base Raspberry Pi analog audio output was atrocious. That was back on one of the original Raspberry Pi's (Model A). Because of that, I ended up purchasing a cheap USB to audio adapter (maybe $1 or $2). With the original analog output, I could hear how hard the Pi was working with the high pitched squeal that it emitted over the speakers. With the USB audio adapter, there was no aliasing of the processor frequency through the speakers. I think I also needed to use an isolation filter going to the amplifier. That was another $1 or $2. (I'm not 100% certain but for 1 project I needed that, and for 1 project I didn't need the isolation filter. I think when I was running the Pi/hub off a battery pack, it was OK, but as soon as I tied the Pi, USB hub, etc into the same power supply, I heard a new noise. That caused me to need a the isolation filter to the amplifier). Hope that helps.

#57 4 years ago

Thanks, I will keep an ear out for that. The later Pi models made significant improvements on the audio front. Nothing hi-fi, mind you, but my preliminary tests showed it was pretty good for a 1985 pinball machine. Time will tell.

#58 4 years ago

Great project - thanks. I came across it when pondering a OPP retheme and a thread like this is great as inspiration and part howto.

1 week later
#59 4 years ago

Thanks, @sys6. I hope the fires and low air quality did not affect you too much this summer!

#60 4 years ago

I was able to show off the Tag Team at a makers group meeting at my work yesterday. It was right alongside a Joust head-to-head build that my friend is doing with Multimorphic boards and MPF. Everybody enjoyed the machines and seeing the Tag Team play.

I also flattened the horribly warped playfield plastics in an oven at 90C on a piece of plywood and weighted down by a glass desktop. Now the ball doesn't get stuck on drooping plastics!

I have been planning on a Raspberry Pi for the final driver of MPF for this machine. I wanted the power of the RPi 4, but support is not quite ready for it. I decided not to blaze the trail on this aspect of the project. I stopped by the local university and picked up a surplus i3 small form factor desktop for less than I was going to spend on the Pi. After installing Lubuntu and MPF, it works great.

1 week later
#61 4 years ago
Quoted from cobra18t:

I got the boards in today. This was my first time ordering from JLCPCB. They are 2-layer boards and they took about a week from order to receipt with DHL shipping from China to California. I might have got them sooner if I had stuck with green soldermask. They claim 24 hour fab time with green and 3-4 days with any other color. But I wanted red...because I wanted red.
I got the minimum order of 5. They are 7.75 x 4.25 inches.
They look quite good. Via drill hits are spot on and soldermask alignment is barely short of perfect. The soldermask is clean even on nearly tented vias. The silkscreen is clear with no smears or spatters. I have been spoiled by ENIG and ENEPIG plating in the past, but the HASL on this looks very good. The only place where the solder plating is not level was a spot on each of the corner mounting holes. I can live with that.
The third picture shows the tiny surface mount FET portion of the solderpaste stencil that I lasercut cut today. The FETs are only about 3mm square. The stencil is made from a clear polyester sheet so it it kind of hard to see. I had to use the Digikey ruler to have something for my phone camera to focus on. Sprechen of Digikey, I also got my parts order today. Maybe tomorrow I can solder a board if I have time.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

@cobra18t, you made the same kind of board I was just considering making! I thought, "How about I design a board that acts as a bunch of wings and is easier to physically mount than multiple boards hanging off of one another." I just discovered @openpinballproj's OPP and am itching to build my own machine. I've used STM32 micros a lot, and I was also thinking about putting one or more STM32 MCUs directly on the PCB instead of soldering the "blue pill" boards onto the larger board. Sadly I have more ideas than money at this point, so so far all I can do is dream and design.

That said, I'd be happy to help whip up boards in KiCad as time permits!

#62 4 years ago

MOSFET you can definitely make a cleaner board with the STM32's directly on the board. I just could not justify the effort and expense of having those components assembled when a blue pill is only $1.78. Plus, I am pretty fast and loose when trying out electronics, so it is nice to have a pluggable uC that I can swap after releasing that magic blue smoke.

#63 4 years ago

@cobra18t, good call on being able to swap in a new MCU board instead of desoldering and replacing a surface mount chip. And the price is right on the blue pill boards.

What FETs are you using for the solenoids? Any gate drivers?

Also do you have a link handy for those LEDs you're mounting to the playfield using the laser-cut holders? Those look convenient!

#64 4 years ago

The FETs are Nexperia BUK9M24-60EX. They are logic level FETs that drive fine on 3.3V, so no gate drivers.

You can get the wired LEDs on Amazon or eBay. I think I paid $8 or 9 per 50 LEDs. Here is an example:
ebay.com link: 0

#65 4 years ago

I never saw that type of LED's before. That makes much more sense than me cutting up strip LED's and soldering wires in between. (That's a major pain). I'd be interested in knowing how you are mounting them. Anything special?

By the bye, I have the Neopixel code working on STM32 so that should be coming out pretty soon for OPP. I've been oscillating between using the SPI or using the PWM to drive the Neopixels, and I think that I have finally settled on the SPI because it saves 1/2 of the RAM. I could have saved a little time running the PWM, but it really wasn't worth it in the end to get the refresh rate higher. (One thing to remember is that it is going to need a 3.3V to 5V converter to get the Neopixels as bright as possible.)

#66 4 years ago

3.3V to 5V converter? Do you not have 5V power available already?

NeoPixels are the usual WS2812B addressable RGB LEDs, right?

#67 4 years ago

Oh, for the data line? I just checked, and VIH is around 3.5V depending on the specific part. I guess I've gotten lucky driving mine at 3.3V logic levels.

#68 4 years ago
Quoted from openpinballproj:

I never saw that type of LED's before. That makes much more sense than me cutting up strip LED's and soldering wires in between. (That's a major pain). I'd be interested in knowing how you are mounting them. Anything special?

It is much easier using the pre-wired LED string. I bought some individual WS2812 leds and wired them together for part of my project and it was tedious. Cobra18t made some nice little laser cut brackets to hold the leds in place. I did a similar thing on mine but made custom brackets for holding multiple LEDs in a line for each area of the playfield. I need to start a thread about my Joust build.

#69 4 years ago

openpinballproj , I mounted them like this: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/re-game-1985-tag-team-pinball#post-5277996
That is great that you have the neopixels on OPP. I look forward to trying it out.

MOSFET , yes the voltage level converter is for the data line. Sometimes you can get away without it, but it would not be super reliable. Differences in temperature, line length, noise, LED manufacturer, phase of the moon, etc. could reduce your margin so that you start getting errors.

AD72 , could you post a picture of the center LED mounting board (egg bonus, multiplier, etc.) you made here? I think it would make a lot more sense to people to just see it here. Then you can start your Joust build thread already! You have blinky lights.

#70 4 years ago

Just remember, when I have Neopixels supported on the OPP side, there is still a good amount of work that needs to be done to integrate it with MPF. Hopefully somebody (not mentioning his name in case he doesn't want to do the work) is willing to do that side because he is much better at it than I am. The commands to change the LEDs were based on his suggestions and how to make an efficient update to a string of LEDs from the MPF perspective. (It's all about the fade baby!)

#71 4 years ago

Here is where I got the idea for the wired RGB LEDs. They used vinyl-coated paperclips to mount them.
https://create.arduino.cc/projecthub/Frogger1108/arduino-conversion-of-an-em-pinball-machine-b2f318

Once the unspoken person ties in neopixel support for OPP to MPF, it will be a great low-cost alternative to fadecandy!

#72 4 years ago

Here are the laser cut holders I made for the Joust egg bonus light array. It was easier to get the pre-wired string and zip tie the excess wire than to solder individual lights together.

393B5508-791C-4C57-9E7E-C4EC5BC0E240 (resized).jpeg393B5508-791C-4C57-9E7E-C4EC5BC0E240 (resized).jpeg77A043AE-4B52-47A7-9A54-9FF1299FE970 (resized).jpeg77A043AE-4B52-47A7-9A54-9FF1299FE970 (resized).jpegFA970D43-E367-4FBC-A4D2-6C0DC5AB7962 (resized).jpegFA970D43-E367-4FBC-A4D2-6C0DC5AB7962 (resized).jpeg
2 weeks later
#73 4 years ago

cobra18t I took finally some time to play your video on rules. damn, it brings this pinball to such another level !! Great job

#74 4 years ago

RE: Logic Level Shifting and neopixels

I've had good luck using this little modulein the past, but am unsure whether it will work for something quite as time sensitive as driving neopixels...

Looking at the schematic, it looks like the magic is just an npn mosfet switch whose gate is driven by the 3.3v logic. It should be okay to incorporate one into a neopixel "wing".

For timing, I see mixed responses on sparkfun's comments. Some say it works with adressable LED's, some not, some say SPI is no-go... looking at the fet's datasheet, max turn-on delay + max rise-time = 23ns, okay...

according to adafruit's guide here, the data line frequency is fixed at 800kHz.. Math time...

#75 4 years ago

I think it would be handy if you stopped using the brand name neopixel on your project openpinballproj as it seems to imply that ONLY adafruit's neopixels are supported, and kinda goes counter to the "open" part of your name in my mind. Now if that is the case (I hope not/don't know why it would be) then I retract my suggestion. Avoids questions like this.

Quoted from MOSFET:

NeoPixels are the usual WS2812B addressable RGB LEDs, right?

From adafruit site:

“NeoPixel” is Adafruit’s brand for individually-addressable RGB color pixels and strips based on the WS2812, WS2811 and SK6812 LED/drivers, using a single-wire control protocol.

cobra18t cool project, I'm enjoying following along. Hope to get back on my project sometime, and really liking the new developments.

#76 4 years ago

eh, I'm at the coffeeshop with awful wifi so I'm having trouble citing my sources, but I don't see any reason why using such a logic level shifter *shouldn't* work (or why it didn't work for other users...). I'll dig around tonight and see if I can find the parts to put together an experiment. I've been meaning to tinker more with my blue pills anyhow.

@borgdog I think calling them neopixels is no big deal. Adafruit's designs are mostly open-source anyway and if/when they rebrand something, they usually have great documentation and libraries to back it up. I'm happy to pay Adafruit for my first thing or two, use their documentation to learn how to use it, then go for the cheaper route once I have a little experience with it. I consider it a well-earned finder's fee. As a bonus, it's harder to accidentally order a ws2811 or a ws2801 by accident!

It's also just a manner of speaking. I'm sure you've used a Kleenex, or a Band-Aide, or a Crescent Wrench before...

#77 4 years ago

I've been trying to avoid using the term Neoppixels too. For me it's a bit confusing, as I read Adafruit site when they say "Neopixel LED" they mean serially controlled with RGB+W in the package and "Neopixel" is just RGB with no W. Further I think WS2811 are grb and WS2812 are rgb so it all gets crazy.

I think MPF handles rgb and grb, not sure about rgbw.

#78 4 years ago

Sorry for any confusion, but when I say Neopixels, I'm actually just talking about addressable LEDs. I have never bought a Neopixel myself, but most of the stuff that I search on the web is found throwing that in the search. I'm currently using WS2812B strips for my testing. While those are RGB, it doesn't actually matter to the firmware if it is RGB or RGBW, etc. The thought is that MPF will be configured with the color order, number of bytes per pixel, and suddenly the OPP firmware doesn't need to care about that stuff and it makes projects much more configurable.

#79 4 years ago

Tag Team has a pile of stuff on it right now. I have my Stargate stripped down to the playfield doing a major overhaul.

Quoted from SYS6:

I think MPF handles rgb and grb, not sure about rgbw.

MPF does rgb and grb no problem. For grb, you just add "type: grb" to the light:

l_shooterRod:
number: 218
type: grb

RGBW in MPF is currently possible, however it is not optimized. The current scheme takes normal RGB color commands and creates a white channel like so...W = min(R, G, B):
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/mpf-users/rgbw%7Csort:date/mpf-users/inJzJVlWVWU/hujd7_a6CwAJ

#80 4 years ago

I would characterize that as not supporting RGBW LEDs. My understanding of RGBW LEDs is that instead of 3 bytes of data, there is a 4th byte of data necessary for the white channel, and the white has its own separate LED. The SK6812RGBW seems to show the same timing as WS2812, so the SPI timing should work for either. My theory was that the configuration have the LED wing configured as 3 bytes or 4 bytes per pixel, and the number of pixels in the chain. That gives the firmware the number bytes needed to transmit the whole chain.

When updating the LEDs, a single fade command is supported. The fade command is as follows: board id (byte, normally 0x20 for STM32s), command (byte, 0x40), offset (2 bytes), num bytes to update (2 bytes), time of fade (number of ms, 2 bytes), data, crc8.

By setting the time of fade to 0 ms (0x0000), the changes will take affect immediately.

Assuming an rgb LED chain (3 bytes per pixel), updating the 3rd pixel to be black (all channels off) immediately would look like:
0x20 0x40 0x00 0x06 0x00 0x03 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 crc8

Assuming an rgb LED chain (3 bytes per pixel), updating the 4th pixel to all on immediately would look like:
0x20 0x40 0x00 0x09 0x00 0x03 0x00 0x00 0xff 0xff 0xff crc8

Assuming an rgb LED chain (3 bytes per pixel), updating the 5th pixel, green only channel to full on in 1 second would look like:
0x20 0x40 0x00 0x0d 0x00 0x01 0x03 0xe8 0xff crc8

Assuming an rgbw LED chain (4 bytes per pixel), updating 3rd pixel to black (all channels off) immediately would look like:
0x20 0x40 0x00 0x08 0x00 0x04 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 crc8

That's where the OPP firmware is going next. The goal is that this single command makes it very easy for MPF to update LEDs efficiently.

#81 4 years ago
Quoted from openpinballproj:

I would characterize that as not supporting RGBW LEDs. My understanding of RGBW LEDs is that instead of 3 bytes of data, there is a 4th byte of data necessary for the white channel, and the white has its own separate LED.

I would still say it is supported, just not optimized. With the following config from Cadrion, you define the 4th byte of data as the white:

l_led1:
channels:
green:
- number: 0-0
red:
- number: 0-1
blue:
- number: 0-2
white:
- number: 0-3

MPF then stuffs that byte with min(R,G,B). With the proper equation for RGBW as a function of RGB, I think this a great way to support RGBW LEDs.

I say MPF is not optimized for it because min(R,G,B) is not the best method from a color recreation sense. For example the color "white" defined by RGB is (255,255,255). With the current conversion in MPF, that gets you (255,255,255,255) in RGBW. This seems to defeat the purpose of having a white channel on the LED! "White" should be (0,0,0,255) in RGBW since I don't want any saturated color in it. Maybe that is just me. There are a number of conference papers on RGB to RGBW conversion that have a lot more proof of their validity than my opinion.

Despite the shortcomings of the conversion, RGBW still works in MPF.

#82 4 years ago

Good information. I was worried that MPF wouldn't understand the difference between 3 byte (RGB) and 4 byte (RGBW) strands. Maybe they just can't handle 32 bit values for RGBW leds? In the tutorial step 17, it mentions "6-digit hex color codes". http://docs.missionpinball.org/en/latest/tutorial/17_add_lights_leds.html

#83 4 years ago

I think I should probably just try some RGBW at some point with MPF. Maybe I will wait for it as part of my OPP testing for neopixels...I mean 800kHz serial addressable RGB LEDs.

#84 4 years ago

I just found 50x wired RGBW LEDs for <$12:
ebay.com link: 0

#85 4 years ago

would be great to test. I think I'll get one too ^^

#86 4 years ago
Quoted from openpinballproj:

Good information. I was worried that MPF wouldn't understand the difference between 3 byte (RGB) and 4 byte (RGBW) strands. Maybe they just can't handle 32 bit values for RGBW leds? In the tutorial step 17, it mentions "6-digit hex color codes". http://docs.missionpinball.org/en/latest/tutorial/17_add_lights_leds.html

MPF will happily send 3, 4 or 10 bytes per LED. It only depends on how many channels you define for a light. A light channel is just a brightness. It then depends on the platform how those are applied to the hardware (i.e. serially for WS281X). Internally, a light still uses RGB for colors though (because that is how most applications work with color). However, we can calculate a white channel based on RGB. I implemented the simplest possible algorithm for that. There are better ones but nobody implemented them yet.

#87 4 years ago

Here is my first go at a coffee table cabinet. It would be lined with T molding. There is an inner ledge that would also have T molding and the glass would set on that ledge. Only gravity holds the glass in. The front box houses the 3 buttons and 7 inch monitor. The plunger is still accessible under the front box.
Overall dimensions: 50 x 22.875 x 20 inches.

TagTeamCabinet01pers (resized).JPGTagTeamCabinet01pers (resized).JPG
#88 4 years ago

Love that. That's nearly what I plan for the next one where I only have the playfield.
Was wondering on the best way to handle the window... Will wait for your feedback on the gravity option, especially on the denoising effect of the window without rails.

#89 4 years ago

Rgbw leds are not listed like that in mpf docs.
It's coded by three channels, then the white takes the next ones and creates a shift..
Can be a mess quite quickly, or did I miss something?
http://docs.missionpinball.org/en/latest/mechs/lights/leds.html#hardware

#90 4 years ago
Quoted from BENETNATH:

Rgbw leds are not listed like that in mpf docs.
It's coded by three channels, then the white takes the next ones and creates a shift..

I think this is a limitation of, in my case, fadecandy's hardware numbering. Fadecandy assumes an LED is 3 bytes so that is how the numbers are arranged. You have to fake the fadecandy out and assign an LED 4 bytes for an RGBW LED. So jabdoa was still accurate in his statements above.

The WS2812, SK6812, etc. protocol doesn't really have a concept of an "LED". Each LED just picks off the number of bytes it needs and sends the rest down the chain.

This does bring up an interesting point, fadecandy only supports 64 RGB LEDs in a chain, meaning 192 bytes per chain (64 x 3). With RGBW, you can only fit 48 LEDs per chain (192 / 4). This is due to the number of bytes that can be sent at the refresh rate that fadecandy runs for its color dithering feature.

I assume that OPP will also have fewer RGBW LEDs it can support per board vs RGB, but I think that might be more of a memory limitation than anything else. openpinballproj will have to chime in.

#91 4 years ago
Quoted from BENETNATH:

Will wait for your feedback on the gravity option, especially on the denoising effect of the window without rails.

I am hoping the glass on the small T molding will make a decent seal for sound blocking. The cabinet will not be totally sound sealed anyway due to ventilation intake and exhaust and the speaker itself. It is crazy loud now, so hopefully being mostly sealed will make a huge difference.

The rules video I made used sound effects recorded directly from my computer and a very directional mic for the voice over. Without that, the machine sounds would drown the other sounds out in its current state.

#92 4 years ago

Thanks for these two replies.
Will see how OPP and MPF will take that in charge...
About the noise, I'll follow that issue

#93 4 years ago
Quoted from cobra18t:

I assume that OPP will also have fewer RGBW LEDs it can support per board vs RGB, but I think that might be more of a memory limitation than anything else. openpinballproj will have to chime in.

I'm limiting the OPP firmware to about 256 LEDs. That is either RGB or RGBW. The STM32 is memory limited which is why I'm doing that calculation. So the firmware needs to hold all of the bytes of data that it is currently displaying. So with RGBW that would be 256 * 4 bytes = 1KB. To keep the OPP firmware realtime, it uses the SPI DMA to actually feed the data to
NeopixelWS2812 data. Each WS2812 bit takes 4 SPI bits, so that means that takes 4KB of memory for the DMA data. To support fading, it requires one more copy of the data (as the final data value), so that takes another 1KB. So all said and done it is approximately 6KB for the pixel data. The processor has 20KB of SRAM, so it isn't that close, and maybe I could actually support a second SPI channel. I don't know that supporting more than 256 LEDs makes sense in a pinball machine.

#94 4 years ago

256 seems already a large number !

#95 4 years ago

256 serially controlled leds would seem adequate

Does the use of MOSI2 as the serial led pin mean that you can not then use a switch matrix on that wing? As i read the MPF OPP switch doco you use wing positions 2 and 3 for a switch matrix, but maybe that is just an example and is not a fixed location?

#96 4 years ago

MOSI2 is on wing0. The switch matrix is fixed on wings 2 and 3. I believe you can still use wing0 for something else, but enabling neopixel support would take over that particular pin (MOSI2 = PB15).

#97 4 years ago

256 seems like enough.. until you put in 300ish, which I have, but I'm probably an edge case/crazy, currently running them all off a fadecandy, still have a few more to add as i haven't done the backbox lights in there yet. of course I also haven't touched the machine in a couple years so probably a moot point.

Or is this 256 per STM32? @openpinballproj

anyway, nice to see OPP continue to progress, and great work on the tag team.

#98 4 years ago

It would be 256 per STM32. If more than 256 are needed, another STM32 card would be needed.

#99 4 years ago
Quoted from cobra18t:

MOSI2 is on wing0. The switch matrix is fixed on wings 2 and 3. I believe you can still use wing0 for something else, but enabling neopixel support would take over that particular pin (MOSI2 = PB15).

Thanks cobra18t, I should have looked more carefully. I was mixing up the STM32 with the layout of the old processor

1 month later
#100 3 years ago

I have not posted anything for a while because I have been stuck on the progress of the physical build. Nevertheless, being forced to work from home and stay at home has enabled me to rethink how I work on my computer. I have been making great progress on the MPF game development and moving from my tiny laptop screen to a larger dual screen setup helps out a lot!

I have added:

  • 4 new bonus awards including 2 multiball modes
    • Punch Out: Knockdown all 7 drops in alloted time
    • Precision: hit flashing drop target that keeps moving. Similar to Tommy's Christmas mode.
    • Head Lock: Similar to Twilight Zone Fast Lock multiball
    • Tag Team: 2-ball multiball where the capture holes are the big payout
  • Mystery mode with 7 mystery awards
    • Extra ball
    • 30sec scoring multiplier
    • Bonus multiplier to max
    • Unlimited chances (left outlane ball save)
    • Increase super jackpot
    • Skillshot value to maximum
    • Pop value to maximum
  • Better multiplayer support and slides
  • End of ball Bonus mode
  • Enhanced skillshot: Prize builds with each hit. Particular sequence shots also builds the prize.
  • Pop bumper value increases with successive hits during ball
  • Lots of bug fixes

image (resized).pngimage (resized).png

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