Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider yelobird.
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Sweet on the QA content. Knew most in speaking to Robert but wasn't clear on the topper for the Xtra version. Pleased to hear that one with be more animated. Win. Have 2 Xtra versions paid in full betting against the opinion odds this will be a great game.
Quoted from cpr9999:Does anyone know what is the first serial number / order number?
Might be worth listing too.
001 might be a good guess. I am right behind that.
Quoted from Rarehero:Unfortunately there are a lot of people who don’t understand that history repeats itself & bad people don’t change when not reprimanded for their bad behavior. You may see my posts as an attack, but the reality is I’m trying to protect each and every one of you. Not sure why Jpop still has the ability to have a strong cultist grip on pinball buyers...but here we are. If telling the truth saves one pinballer from future pain, then my posts do nothing but good.
Luckily Nobody has any History with Deeproot soooo while your warning is noted I am confident in my purchase!
Quoted from Ferret:Random question: how many people have order numbers where the bottom 3 digits are NOT evenly divisible by 3? (e.g. 198, 195, 153 are all divisible by 3)
I have number 5 does that count? (and number 7) Xtra's
As this is mostly a speculation thread I’m curious what the Xtra version topper will do since it’s noted as mechanical vs the one they showed. Also, as the production date for the Xtra topper is well past the proposed build date I wonder I’d those will just arrive later?
Quoted from wamonkey:Not uncommon for Stern...Star Wars it was years for a wildly over priced R2D2
Understood but the Stern topper was a for sale add on. The Xtra topper is included. Just hoping that’s just a later shipped item.
Quoted from wesman:It looks like a very, very solid throwback styled game, with excellent modern amenities that blend, while creating greater function!
I maybe wish there was one more flipper, but honestly I don't think it would function well, given the layout.
Definitely excited, and teeter tottering on securing a spot/making room in my house/paying bills and such.
Oh so close though....
Bills are overrated and not as fun as pinball! Who needs a dining room anyway.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Another question, does anyone know the dimensions of RAZA? Specifically, how wide is the backbox? I've got some narrow doorways, and a lot of times I end up having to unhinge backboxes to bring them in/out. New Sterns are narrow enough that I'm fine, but I wasn't sure if anyone knew how wide RAZA's are?
It is the same as a B/W in size as noted.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Yeah, I just wondered what the actual dimensions were, since the DR backbox is a different shape than a Bally/Williams. Although, it's still generally square I suppose.
Its the same Width which is all that should matter in regards to a door opening.
Quoted from AstonEnthusiast:Considering ordering an Xtra edition, but what's this I hear about needing to sign a contract to purchase (essentially an indemnification agreement)?
In my view a mirror of the the Stern EULA that you will need to sign also. Basically nothing more then a CYA product waiver which is not really new to the industry.
Quoted from wamonkey:Some people are more believing than I (paying in full - seems risky to me) but a deposit for an arcade edition ($600-700) is not something I want to lose but I won’t die if for some reason the machine is never built.
That is why I could and would not pull the trigger on the XTRA. 20% is over $2k on the XTRA and that is also a bridge too far.
I don’t think the XTRA will sell out it’s 300, maybe both editions together will be close to 300 is my guess.
We all have different risks and money levels we are comfortable with. I hope DR lives up to the orders they are getting - my guess it will be close to 300 machines by the time their order taking stops.
I am a believer the contract didn’t overly concern me, if I wanted to freak out I would read my iPhone user agreement and then I can build a cabin in Montana and live off the grid renouncing technology.
Lol. I have always been afraid to actually read that iPhone agreement.
Quoted from drfrightner:i couldn't disagree more. Led Zeppelin is considered the greatest rock n roll band in history and somehow you think people will lose more money on that game more so than a game only 100 or fewer people want to buy? Strange! LZ LE sell out in minutes, and you think somehow RAZA a game with no connection to a legendary rock band who's sold over 200 million records will beat out LZ in the long run. You know there are hundreds of titles from the 90's that you can snag for 2k to 4k, titles with no connection to a film or band like raza. How is it that you have a crystal ball to see this RAZA game won't fall into the same boat 10 years from now? Not one single person even knows if this company will be in business for the long run no one knows. Oktoberfest has sold about 200 copies or so but do you see the value of that game flying thru the roof? Just because something is rare doesn't mean it will be valuable.
Long after every band member of LZ is gone people will continue to celebrate them, and collect everything they can get their hands on. My post doesn't mean any disrespect to RAZA but c'mon what you said is complete disrespect for a legendary rock band or TNMT with millions of fans, or Stranger Things streaming's biggest hit ever. People might forget about Stranger Things 10 years from now but LZ no way in hell!
Tell all the KISS fans who snatched up basically every single KISS LE ... those people wouldn't sell you their KISS LE for any price. All the people who snatched up LZ LE on the first day, many being hard core LZ fans those games will never be re-sold.
The long term jury is still out on titles like Black Knight Swords of Rage to TNA to yes RAZA. Time will tell but don't compare a game that hasn't even been shipped with no single connection to any IP to Led Zep c'mon man. That just isn't being real.
Lol. LZ sold out in minutes. So did 600 Munsters LE's. How well did they do! lolol A hungry market does Not make for a guaranteed investment! The Beatles is a WAY bigger band and following then LZ how are those games selling vs list? LZ is a great band but that does Not ensure a great pinball machine. How many hours have you put into Playing LZ may I ask.......
Quoted from cliff_clavin:Let me try to save you some legal fees. The contract is written by lawyers hired by deep root. Basically unless you are ok with losing your deposit, wait until they start delivering games and order then....if losing the deposit won’t keep you up at night, then go for it.
Oddly, I was told the same about my Stern LE and JJP LE deposit...... Must be a trend.
Quoted from drfrightner:pinball isn't an investment its silly to think it is... every time you buy a game people expect to lose some money upon resale. In the rare occasions like JJP Pirates they skyrocket. We also see where Cactus Canyons got up to 20k now they're back down to the 10k range because of Chicago Gaming new machine coming soon. Big Lebowski was hitting legendary numbers now they're worth about what you paid.
You don't buy pinball hoping to hit it big like a stock no one does. That isn't the point. Furthermore its an insult to anyone's intelligence comparing a fringe 60's TV show that honestly never should have been made to a legendary Rock Band whos sold over 200 million records and are consistently ranked the greatest rock band in history. That just isn't a fair comparison.
LOL.
Led Zep is on GOD LEVEL for many people, I doubt Munsters is all that memorable for most. Universal has owned that IP and in 40 years never made a movie out of it that should tell you something. Stern shouldn't have ever made that title when they could have made Beetlejuice. Just saying.
Do you ever read what you wrote. I simply responded to your point that LZ LE sold out in Minutes. As if that meant Anything! Trust me I know pinball is not an investment that would be foolish. What I do know is YOU are a straight up honest opinion collector. Thats why I asked How many games have you Played on LZ? I know for a fact there have been games with Great themes you loved till you played them. Thats my primary point. LZ (TO ME) looks slim by comparison as a pinball game. Again my opinion. For the money I think Raza will be well bought. I will look for your Long term value review of LZ when you get and play one.
Quoted from drfrightner:You know what I find strange, people have been burned so many times by fringe pinball companies, why would you pay fifty cents towards a deposit?
Its a serious question!!! You're giving this money directly to the company how many times in the past has this worked out? I've been in business a long time and I don't pay for something that isn't ready for delivery upon payment.
If Deeproot is backed by this guy with all this money why does he need a big deposit why not 100 dollars? Who wants to pay 2k then wait for 2 years to get it? Maybe it doesn't take 2 years maybe it takes 2 months, 10 months whatever... you're dealing with a company that has never delivered a single pinball game to customers and you're giving them money in advance.
The safest path to me is pay for them when you can ship them or buy them from a distributor who has them on their shelf. I do hope everyone gets their pinball games, with no issues, and loves them. With that being said seems like there has been enough burned pinball buying stories to keep people going down that rabbit hole again.
Sorry, the hyperbole theory thread is in the Other Deeproot thread. This is for the Ordered folks here. Plenty of opinions, theories, FUD, and fright in the other thread. lol I will however invite you over as soon as my games arrive though as you are awesome! lol
Quoted from drfrightner:This company has been saying for how many years they're just around the corner. I think its fair to say you might hear the same thing about the manufacturing. They're only producing 100 for sure manageable but that means the owner of this company will be losing tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even your ego and pride at some point has to realize when it doesn't make sense.
I can only imagine how much money these people has sunk into this company and how much more to actually make these 100 machines. I just don't see how this company will stay in business no matter how much money you shovel in.
Just me... keep your deposit until they have games in the box ready to ship.
What 100 games? Last I checked they were well past double that? You need to get your hate spin updated. lol They only thing I will agree with is "time will tell".
Quoted from kklank:no. What video mods are you talking about?
Sorry meant video Modes. In the rather awesome in depth coverage on game and code This Week in Pinball one of the later sections shows some video modes like "Attach of the Saucers" which looks similar to the one in AFM or missile command.
Pretty much Everything you would want to know about Raza gameplay:
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/retro-atomic-zombie-adventureland-pinball-deep-dive-in-depth-overview-of-the-machine-features-rules-and-more/
Quoted from spfxted:Thanks! Oh, I have nothing against Deeproot and hope they do well. The Jpoop thing annoys me because I hate to see people being taken advantage of. I think he should go to jail.
That being said, I like the look of RAZA. I like the backbox and the art. I would love to play one someday. It is certainly not out of the question that I would buy a Deeproot pinball machine someday. (Just not Food Truck or Bible Stories or Goonies) If they made Forbidden Planet, I'd be first in line. I am all for what they are doing trying to get games to the Zid W people.
For a few of those Davidoff cigars my game and home arcade is Always open to you Mr monter mag! Any day any time your in the area.
Quoted from Rarehero:I’m skeptical of a company with years of broken promises & zero proven ability to manufacture and you legit throw those insults at me? Wow. Just wow.
This. Is. A. Cult.
You’ve made your point thank you. We will let you know how it goes.
Quoted from Rarehero:I don’t care what you spend your money on. I cannot comprehend blindly supporting a company that hired someone who ripped off our community & hasn’t yet proven they can manufacture anything, while attacking someone from our community who is merely pointing out these facts. There’s no guarantee you will get the thing you think will make you happy.
Thanks yet Again for your amazing wisdom. We will let you know how it goes. Thanks.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:RAZA can now be added to your current collection or wishlist. Just added mine.
Thanks. Officially in.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Very nice to see some more orders and at the same time a full day without a troll's posts. It is a great day.
Please don't say the "T" word or they Will come....
Quoted from spfxted:Can't wait to play! If it's good, a shame they will not make more.
They have been rather "Flexible" with the business plan to this point so never say never lol. Looking forward to it granted I need to clear an endcap position to see all those wonderful cabinet illuminated features on the Xtra.
Quoted from Cheeks:OK...I can get the Arcade with most options ($6600) for Zidware credits + shipping, or I could get the Xtra for Zidware credits + $3K + shipping. Thoughts?
Can only be Your decision really. If I was in a credit situation personally I would view it as I had Nothing before so why not take full advantage of the opportunity. Worst you can do is be back where you started?
Quoted from Cheeks:Part of me has an issue putting in any more money...for obvious reasons. However, the Xtra is much closer to what jpop sold as the RAZA vision all those years ago, and I love the color difference and lit side panels.
I'd be lying if I didn't admit there's an element of how can I come out the best in this as well. Seeing that deeproot will be selling leftover machines for $8K and $13K respectively makes me wonder if I'm leaving money on the table not going for the Xtra.
So I would return the concern question with what credit card are you using? Seems putting that balance on any credit card (Amex for me) would give you a bit more peace of mind. I will Bet you didn't hand Jpop a credit card on your first leap of faith....
Quoted from cpr9999:Wow - current prices are a bargain....[quoted image]
Love it. Indirectly they kind of set the resale value to a degree. Time will tell.
Quoted from jaytrem:Wishlisted! Currently have -1 space available, hopefully will remedy that this year. Still tempted though. If it was all coasters and no aliens/zombies, I wouldn't be able to resist.
Octoberfest would be right up your wish list. Coaster is well done.
Quoted from wesman:So the cutoff is 3PM C/4PM EST, yes?
Yes
Quoted from pookycade:I have to say they did an excellent job on FOMO. Not quite good enough for me to bite. I honestly do hope for all who have ordered that it turns out to be better than any of us hope for it to be. More pinball is a good thing. However, if the “standard” prices they are looking to charge are $8K and $13K for an unproven company with no manufacturing history in a competitive pinball industry, selling an unlicensed title, with open questions about build quality and business model, I have one phrase...... good luck with that.
Aren't they saying After games are out, built, history established these games would be priced at increase? I think that was the point of offering the entry games at fair prices to "ease start up concerns".
Quoted from Mark1971:I wonder if they will let us know how many orders they received Arcade and Extra models. it would be good to know how many of each people ordered.
Doubt it, like Stern or Any other pinball company they don't owe us that company info. Same like the demands to see a production cell. They sold us a pinball machine not a piece of the company or its process.
Quoted from Mark1971:well it is at least 33 according to the poll above
Absolutely. As long as you apply the Pinside pole percentage of accuracy which is roughly 3% lol. Really looking forward to this game should be a fun New experience.
Quoted from drfrightner:I don't agree with that statement. Do you think any manufacturing company in history said lets get some orders then we'll build the plant? Building and setting up a plant can take years up to a decade to set up to manufacture something. Taking orders before setting up your systems is the same as putting the cart before the horse. Lets see... take orders then figure out later how to build it? That is crazy. A comment like that reminds me of those sites where someone has a good idea then you give them money to help them figure it out. LOL
With all that being said I think Big Papa is an amazing pinball designer, despite screwing all those people years ago. I think it was smart for Deeproot to hire someone with real sold pinball knowledge. Everything Papa does is different and creative. I love the artwork on every Papa game including this one.
Art is a big reason why you're attracted to a game... this game has amazing artwork. With that being said I don't trust these fringe pinball companies, giving them thousands of dollars because history tells me NOT to do that.
We'll see how it all works out.
And hes back to share his wisdom...... Thanks again we will let you know how it goes. Thanks.
Quoted from wesman:Jesus. $650 for shipping???
Looked like 525 to me unless your shipping USPS which would take 5 months. lol just poking you.
Quoted from wesman:You sonuva!
I guess it's based on distance. Hmm. You have any neighbors moving out near you Yelo? I can save on shipping, or just hang out with you and your game!
Welp.... *gulp* I'm in. Down to the wire it is!
#100232.
[quoted image]
Wow congrats! I have a good feeling your gut instinct will pay off. Game looks like a blast.
Quoted from drfrightner:Its a forum if you don't like something don't read it.
True, if This was that forum. This is the BUYERS forum that already Pre-Ordered? I value your opinion but I nor does anyone need to follow it or be beat over the head with it! Time will tell as I keep saying and Trust that you will be one of my first invites over to play it when it Will arrive!
Quoted from NoMonkey:Yeah, fair point. It does seem pretty bull-headed to just close the thread without any indication as to why though. I guess we'll wait until whatever magic thing has to happen before we can have an owners thread and I'll do it then.
Has always to my knowledge been a Pinside rule that a Club thread can only be started When a game first starts shipping. No worries I suspect and Appreciate this will actually be a small and elite group. With an occasional Drfrightner thrown in for fun on occasion lol.
Quoted from NoMonkey:I thought that might be it as well though I do see a Zeppelin Owners Club already with plenty of posts that hasn't been shut down. I've messaged Robin for clarification just so I know what the exact rules are in the future instead of having to guess.
While not a ship to ALL I know LZ has already arrived at a few distributors including Cointaker so I think that qualifies as in route. All good.
Quoted from Tomass:He sure is long winded. Or worded? I have not read any of his posts. I don't value anyones opinion enough to read through all that BS.
Lol I do agree with that. With that said #Drfrightner (IE Larry) is a good example of Not reading a book (or Long winded post) by the cover. I have gone down to visit Larry at his invite to see his collection and Amazing creations via his escape rooms and haunted houses. Larry is Truly an Incredibly talented, generous, and knowledgable guy. For Sure not the guy you assume he is by his posts. He is the Real deal creative wildman that has a Crazy passion for all he does. (pretty sure he works 20 hours per day on his visions lol) He and his team build the most incredible sets I have personally ever seen. I would Strongly promote Anyone that can make the trip to St Louis Not miss the opportunity to see his talent and meet him personally. Definitely NOT the guy you may stereotype him as based on his posts which he does mean well by. To me he is one of those hidden gems you find in a hobby that are not what you expected. Many like to share their opinion on how a game company should do things, he actually knows how to do it. Fun stuff, consider a visit you will NOT be disappointed!!
Quoted from NoMonkey:Wow, this does look incredible! Very cool!
That video really doesn’t show off his great for play pinball collection and decor. Really well done.
Quoted from Bud:Congrats to you preorder bastards! I really wanted to buy one but just couldn’t swing it right now.
I hope you guys hit it big time on this one like the JJP PoTC pin did in value. Pretty looking game, maybe I’ll get one later on.
Lol, crazy preorder bastards maybe. Fairly certain Most did not buy this with any intension to find that elusive POTC investment opportunity simply a really amazing looking game that looks Fun. Sadly this title and company had some Big size baggage to overcome and I personally Fully respect those that apposed this startup but in the end, I personally think this Is a great game and Innovation spark that Will move this hobby we love Forward to new and positive direction. Will it be a value decision or even a successful bet? Time will tell. Past words and statements aside, Now is when the history of This company is decided!
Quoted from frankmac:Question, is the glass a standard size on the arcade version?
First post Q and A. No it is not standard and the glass is the same on both models.
Quoted from noitbe1:You got lucky to get one. I asked Mirco to get one in the past. How did you get it?
A year ago there was a children's hospital charity auction with many pinball donors. This was a 1 of 1 signed by all at Deeproot uncut playfield. I am Drawn to the odd and unusual....lol Really is nice though.
Quoted from BladesOfSteel:Created an account to say I got in on a RAZA Xtra early morning on the 30th... took some convincing the wife and it only cost me a promise to remodel a bathroom that I was secretly planing to do anyway so I'm calling it a Win.
Order#100221
It will be the first Pin in the house and will be the start of many more to come.
Congrats and welcome aboard.
Quoted from wrb1977:yelobird...I know you will be one of the first to receive RAZA...did deeproot give you a projected delivery date? Do you have any update on production? Last I heard was late January / early February for the first ones to ship.
Now we all wait...
No update as of yet though it is only 1 day in. My expectation was February personally. Any updates I get will certainly be shared as well as an open invite to anyone near this area when they arrive to try it out. Already have some mod ideas on in layout for this interesting concept.
Quoted from kklank:Did someone say mods?!!! That’s the icing on the cake. I call dibs! Your mods are always high quality and fit a theme very well. I’m excited.
Lol. Thanks KK. Open themes have unlimited potential. Can’t wait.
Quoted from frankmac:Mods Planned yelobird ?
Yes several.
Quoted from Mbecker:So what’s the point of the deposits and order period??? Pretty much just hype up the fomo,
As this is now Done I don't see why this needs to be further debated but my GUess is with the venomous following pushing doubt the last thing they wanted was 2000 fake Non-Deposit commitments (say from that other thread) to establish the start point only to have it crash when they all walk away laughing. Just a guess. I would have done a deposit also. Last 3 Sterns And JJP's I ordered I was required to put a 1K Non Refundable deposit down so not sure why this is such a Wow moment for everyone??
Quoted from drfrightner:In a past life you might have been a kamikaze pilot... fly that plane right thru a hail of bullets to reach the target. What I mean is you're totally fearless my man! Love it! Maybe 1 out of 100 Kamikaze hit their target but no matter its the fearless nature that counts. Send me those gameroom pics in March.
Like I said the artwork is badass!!! Can't wait to see it in action!
You and the fear Fud throwers were more like flies then bullets. Don't worry you can come enjoy mine when it arrives.
Quoted from UnholySpectacle:Now that you mention it I should measure to be sure. Did they release the dimensions of the topper?
Worst case you can just take the light bulbs out to clear another 5 inches lol. Topper was a must to me. Granted Xtra included but would order anyway.
Quoted from wesman:This is my favorite aspect of Domino's. The pizza tracker, even if not accurate, is exactly what I want from a big box chain.
Their Brooklyn Style pizza, isn't actually bad either. As much as I try to avoid chains, when so many local pizza shops exist. (Wish I could honestly call them pizzarias....but in West. PA, that's not really a colloquiasm.)
And yeah....I hope games get into production, and I hope a January update occurs, and I hope a game is shipped in February. That's my....well, hope. I wouldn't expect all games ordered to ve shipped prior to late Spring.
We shall see..!
Ok I can stomach Deeproot speculation but Please don’t compare Dominoes to Any good pizza. In Chicago I am amazed they sell any personally.
I am looking forward to Hopefully an End to all the speculation, rumor, assumption, theory, FUD, assumed history, associated with this company. Likely won't end but thats my hope as an answer along with what looks like a really fun shooting game and New pinball direction.
Quoted from happyclan:Why would anyone put $ for the Xtra when you can upgrade from Arcade? Or do I have that wrong?
Because when you add all the options it costs more?
Quoted from happyclan:Gotcha. Well, I missed the pre-order. Has anyone been able to place an order AFTER the preorder closed? So much going on over holiday.
Pre-Order for all Raza is closed and done. No additional orders as they noted unless there happens to be excess parts to make a game or 2 a a premium cost.
Quoted from happyclan:Sorry my question wasn’t complete.
I’m just asking why you wouldn’t just put a down on arcade in order to derisk any failure to deliver.
I guess for me my "derisk" was the fact that the Xtra was noted as first out the door so my strategy was to get a few of the first 5 Just incase they faltered like Suncoast did (I secured #001) at 20 games. Hedged bet I guess. None the less, I personally have no worries about this title and volume clearing the runway.
Quoted from Chopper36:I did not purchase it to flip,
Did you buy it just to look at?? JK>
Quoted from transprtr4u:Link ?
Again great positive thread... loving it !
All videos with most details needed.
Has everyone downloaded and setup the PinAcess Deeproot phone app. I have mine set, rather simple and a nice interface.
Quoted from happyclan:^this.
The only reason I can think of not to do it would be the RAZA machine has design defects that they can't get around for this build. In short, this is a mass produced prototype. Small run keeps complaints small and manageable for hotfixes and such. Roll the Ford Model A before the mass build of the Model T. Pure speculation but trying to find a rational reason for 20 day order window too. I confuse.
Anything is possible but in my opinion and a few conversations with DR it sounded like the primary interest in clearing this title was to fullfill those (previous company) promises and obligations that ordered this title. And to do a test run of the production line. Again, just a Guess but I think this was a good will run and nothing more. Would love to see it run again but time will tell.
Quoted from Stemmy:Does anyone know if they have should the Xtra topper yet?
They noted Q2 on Xtra version topper.
Quoted from wamonkey:Not good when you get dead links ...
The FAQ on shipping games and other topics is gone now too.
Not going to downplay this ... or rationalize this ... not what I like to see.
Doesn’t give me a warm fuzzy feeling. A good company would recognize these issues and address it.
A person could email them but it would be some justification...I hope I am wrong and they have new content. But, most companies get content on and don’t deadlink stuff.
The game is no longer for sale as they made very clear from the start. No conspiracy they simply Removed links to the game no longer for sale as they are no longer of value to anyone other then those that are now customers. Plus they appear to be converting over the site to the app format to log players and content. Same as the app I was asking about and registered for previously.
Quoted from wamonkey:Ok I will amend my posts - I see they made the content only available if you use your account.
Why don’t they just make the content link to a log-in screen?
Just bad optics that lead the other forum posts to think the worst.
I am just not as convinced as you guys are that this will all work out without issue. I am realistic, I have been saying that I am OK with delays and honestly expect it.
It’s Saul Goodman. Like the owners group I suspect DR doesn’t care what the other forum group think as they will simply make it up as they go anyway. Give it time these will roll.
Quoted from Mr68:Who is Saul Goodman?
It was simply a joke. Granted anything DR related has to be analyzed so I should have stuck with simple talk.
saul3 (resized).jpgQuoted from Mr68:That's all you needed to say and I would have given you an upvote had you limited your comment.
No worries long day. Granted I don't know many people that haven't seen Breaking Bad but who knew! I was wrong.
Quoted from wamonkey:Now that I think of it - all the people who are trashing the food truck idea can look at Fish Tales and say as a concept think of selling that idea to Williams back in the day. Sure people love fishing but it is not the biggest appeal or market, kind of like Big Buck Hunter for Stern that is based upon the game not actual hunting.
Wait and see - if it is fun it’s fun plain and simple.
Who knows as a concept Food Truck on the surface doesn’t appeal to me but I would say the same of Hot Wheels from American Pinball but man that light show looks cool.
Liking your opinions. Especially Fish Tales. Odd title but a rather fun game. For me thats where the light shines on all the BS. To be So firm and convinced Food Truck is a horrible game by only 2 words (title) is literally foolish lol. How can anyone be so smart that they can judge and determine a game by a title?? lol If JJP POTC was named Food Truck by game play I would buy 10!
Quoted from delt31:I've been staying out of this Raza drama but reading here and there. Food Truck is just a god awful title. I think that's the main reason. It feels so uninspired.
Just sounds stupid. Who knows though - wait and see but honestly, IMO, I wouldn't touch this company with a 10ft pole. A new company that has blown all of it's deadlines is now asking for a non refundable deposit? You have to be kidding me.
That being said, what many don't understand including Kaneda is that the folks putting down the deposit have made so much fun pinball money to begin with from the boom in the market or rare titles they already own (yelobird being top billing) that they are willing to roll the dice b/c if they actually deliver, you have a group of people in this hobby that are so stupid, they spend 2.5k on a topper, or 2k on a POTC mod - they will pay big for a rare pinball title from one of the famous old school designers no doubt. So you're taking a chance, I get it. If you're not one of those people (who are playing with the houses money already), well, I truly don't understand but best of luck. I will continue watching from the sidelines!
Says the guy that flipped a dozen POTC, Wonka, TBL, and Aliens lol. You did pretty well yourself in the market Mr lol.
Quoted from delt31:Nothing wrong with flipping my man - not my point. I just know how easy it is to play with the house money. And yes, I can’t complain with some decisions although losing money on GB wasn’t fun haha
There is no chance this CC thing works. Good luck though. I just think it’s interesting how this thing is unfolding. It’s def fun to watch out play out and I hope you guys cash in!
Think your misinterpreting our interest in the game. It looks like a fun New game with many New to pinball elements which look great. You keep referring to Cash Out though I don’t think anyone is looking to buy this as a treasury bond? It’s a game like any other. I have made my money back on a few games and lost just as much with others. Pinball has never and will never be a profit investment.
Quoted from RichieWrench:Can someone help me with links and pics for this game to go and check it out - curious on this game --Thanks
Heres a link granted they closed the selling window so all thats left is to wait for them to be made.
Quoted from wamonkey:You guys are not skeptical production is not even happening yet (most likely) I don't think anyone has got a call yet.
Again, I ordered but I am just thinking their time line is not realistic. Not trying to be nay sayer just trying to be realistic, I don't expect a call any time soon. Deeproot prove me wrong.
I think many are over analyzing the schedule. We know nothing about production nor were we owed that insight. When they start to overshoot estimated deadlines then its fair to speculate in my opinion. From the original sale it seemed clear early to Mid February would be the focus. I am assuming March as they ramp up. After That I will start to speculate. lol
Quoted from dannunz:I spoke with Scott at Pinstadium lights and he reassured me that his kit will work with Raza. I was worried that this game will be very dark due to not having any GI lighting.
It does have GI lighting thanks.
Quoted from Stemmy:I emailed DR today. They said Robert would be updating customers next week..
Well done thank you.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:I bet the total amount of games gets rounded up to 500 total between the 2 editions.
I suspect by Guess only that this is capped out at less then 250 with 50 fitting the Xtra version. Again just a guess. Regardless I am really looking forward to this pin.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Somewhere deeproot stated no more than 300 Xtra edition will be built. I bet that full amount will get made.
Don't think so in talking to them and what they posted on the for sale launch day. They said that was the cap but All sales were done on the December date no matter how many were sold then they are moving on to the next game.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:I think Robert already had a minimum quantity in mind that he wanted to build, regardless what may have sold in December.
Sorry, I was just going by what he said vs what I assume he is thinking. Sounded like a one and done but of no interest to me as long as one is mine. Rather 2 in this case.
Quoted from Deez:Well thai thread died a quick death. I almost miss the negativity.
Negative whining is for the Other thread. We have the info we need just waiting on the next update thanks.
Quoted from NashtyFunk:I’ve gotta figure out where to stick it. STTNG is already replaced with Led Zeppelin once it gets here. Thanks snow.
[quoted image]
Nice game room! Sorry to pry.... What is that on the far left, looks like a chrome two eyed cobra?
Quoted from wamonkey:In the other forum - Ben Heck - said there is a chance of never receiving the game. Although I do feel that is unlikely, at times I do admit there is a risk. That is why I put the smallest deposit on the cheapest game so if it worked out great, if it didn't I would not be out a ton.
Fingers crossed this all works out. I hope RM has an update for us in a few weeks like he said he would. I never believed February or March and I have doubts even in April. I think early summer would be or could be likely. I just don't see how small runs of games is profitable or offers any long term viability. Spooky would be an example to follow on how to become a pinball company but I think RAZA will be a better offering for a first game then AMH was for Spooky. At times I get mixed feelings this will work out...probably just view this as a bet and either it works out or it doesn't.
I know people knock Food Truck but what if it is something unique. I just am a bit baffled by the decisions and marketing they make. I know its best to just shut up and say nothing until things are ready. Its why CGC is saying nothing now...
Love all Ben Heck has contributed to the hobby but to Me his input on this title is aggressively biased. Opinion! As the previous Partner of JPop and part of Zidware And original concept creator of RAZA I can see why he is a bit outspoken on the release of this title. He is probably the one person in that thread I Understand where his anger comes from. We have our updates, this game will happen and what happens after is of Little interest to me.
Quoted from wamonkey:Also I want to comment over there saying so much of their stuff is BS. I don't think Deeproot owes Cointaker money. They hired JPOP they did not assume 100% of his liabilities - no one does that in a bankruptcy. They don't know....and honestly if some people want money from DR for Zidware crap it is really just too long ago to make any claim against DR. Garnish JPOP wages if you can (which you can't most likely because he was likely smart enough to seperate himself from his Zidware company).
So much of what they say over there is crap and just BS, they have no idea and just want to stir the shit. These guys are the kind of guys who hate LED's and think everyone is wrong to install them and make it known everywhere and the same people who price police. Or bitch because pinball prices are going up.
But, I don't want to be a fool either so I read the stuff just to keep perspective. I am sure Ben Heck has a right to be upset but it seems petty now. Its kind of like how I feel about RAZA, I hope it works out, but if doesn't I was dumb and the only person I can blame is myself and I kind of always dealt with stuff like that by just moving on. Life is too short to hold a grudge granted I would guess Ben lost money and considerable time dealing with JPOP.
Just speaking for me but I don't think Anyone in this thread Cares what is being shared in that thread or sees any need to drag it into this one. IF anyone wants to read that thread they can by choice. Adds no value to this thread in my opinion.
Quoted from Tomass:I love how RareZero stays in here downvoting like it even matters. Don't worry man, you can have the cracker.
PLEASE don't say his name or he will Never leave.... lol
Quoted from wamonkey:Man, you are a super optimistic person. Good for you, I go back and forth fearing we may never see anything.
The other forum is filled with bad comments from people who wish for bad things to happen for God knows why. I try to stay positive thinking I like what I see in RAZA. I hope to keep this forum positive but hope someone can fill me in with new info on RAZA.
They have hinted from the start a March or April ship as we are not there yet I personally have no concern what they share till that time. At this point there is Nothing they can say that won’t be negative manipulated fodder for the masses. Personally have no concerns at this point nor do I care what anyone else assumes. Soon enough this game will be out and a new line of fodder can form.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:No. The thing is we have an inkling of how hard this would be to do and would hopefully be a bit more self aware.
I only wish I was as smart as you. Thanks for sharing.
Quoted from drfrightner:Let me see if I got this straight... this game has essentially been in production one way or another for what now an eternity and the new excuse is weather? Oh wait I'm sorry the real excuse is the UL approval... couldn't you have gotten that like 9 years ago or 8 or whatever. I guess the weather caused the delay. One day this games will be arriving at your home after the weather issue passes, the ul approval is cleared, and after they redesign something on the game for the 1 million time. Oh and if they ever figure out how to set up an assembly line. Its all going to fall into place one day.
The question is will anyone on this board be alive to see it happen?
What is your order number again? Oh I forgot your only here to share your wisdom....lol
Quoted from wrb1977:IMPORTANT REQUEST!!!
I really hope and am asking the Pinsiders that have preordered RAZA to stop sharing the personal email updates from Robert/deeproot here in the forum. Nothing good comes from it as can be seen. That’s all it does is stir the pot and regardless of the content will create more negativity for the company we are supporting.
My suggestion is to keep the updates private, as per Robert’s hopes in the January update, and communicate with each other through PM with anything specific or questions regarding the official updates. There is no benefit for those that didn’t preorder RAZA to have the official updates. Most of those people are doing nothing but hurting the company we are invested in and will only make the path to success harder for deeproot than they have already made it for themselves. Let’s keep this thread going with public info and discussion but please keep the official updates private as these updates will be dissected to no end with ill intentions in the “other” thread.
Thanks,
Wayne
Don't think it really matters to be honest. There will be made up hate with or without updates so why does it matter really? It only matters if you give a crap what anyone else thinks. I rather don't personally.
Quoted from flynnibus:It's like people have already forgotten what the Dutch Pinball experience was like...
Hmmm, wasn't a textbook company business plan but I got a game as did others and last I checked they are still shipping. If the date is missed or the owner is less then organized does that mean burn the company down?
Quoted from transprtr4u:Skipped comment .... Got moderated because I lost my cool in the other burn down DeepRoot thread!
Purchasers on Raza will be made whole...
Lol don't let it bother you. Why does everyone need for this to be Personal? "I'm right and you're wrong!!" Unless its my mom or wife complaining why does anyone need to tell me how to spend my money? lol Good times.
Quoted from flynnibus:And where did you get any of that from my comment? 'burn the company down'? Strawman much?
You may have gotten a game, and I don't know if you were an EA or later.. but does that negate any of the history or path Dutch Pinball took? Or, more to the point, what the buyers suffered through as Jaap and Barry basically refused to say anything.. and even when they did, they would provide slanted, only sunny updates? Less we forget the only way updates really got out were because people goaded them into the newsletter and releases (which was largely assembled by others) and the second hand info from people like rensh? That was years buyers were lead through a dark storm of white lies and people hiding from the public. Sure EAs have gotten more games... but it's still a long way to go. Let's hope sales keep up to keep the machine grinding.
The problem with DR isn't updates. The problem is someone who refuses to take ownership of their failures and keeps dancing verse building confidence in their ability to achieve what they say they will.
Actions like... 'oh our statement wasn't meant to be taken as' is garbage. This isn't some rank and file who spoke out of turn or without oversight. Instead of saying 'we have not accomplished what we intended...' the turn it around to blame you the reader. It's just garbage.. and if you want to put your head in the sand or just want to ignore it, that's your prerogative, but don't claim people manufacture hate or other non-sense simply because they call a spade a spade while you pray for happy thoughts.
Ok? But you pointed out DP. They Are still making games and Slowly trying to make good on sales. Whats the point with less words? Did they promise a timeline to you and miss or are you simply saying how You would do it. I know the story but who honestly cares? I went through the BBB decade also so what games still churned out no matter how the drama rolled. It's a hobby for us not a business strategy class. Your a savvy guy, if this doesn't seem like a smart play your fine to follow your decision. I personally am buying a game, Not investing in a Company or choosing a business partner (RM). If the Grand secret plan was to Steal $600 deposits from 120 people they certainly went about it the wrong way. Best to you and your next business startup.
Quoted from flynnibus:Simple.. I'll repeat myself -- "if you want to put your head in the sand or just want to ignore it, that's your prerogative, but don't claim people manufacture hate or other non-sense simply because they call a spade a spade while you pray for happy thoughts."
Instead of people just saying "I'm ok with the risk" (which you have said prior) instead supporters are trying to rewrite and label doubters as people with agendas ("burning down the company") or distorting reality ("manufacturing hate") simply because they will not give DR the free pass you have. It's the textbook example of people trying to paint the opposition as some sort of boogie man because they don't follow the same path as you.
Ok, if you can read that other thread and Not see hate, slander, and assumption from Many (NOT ALL) we must be reading a different thread of 15,000 posts. Your reply is actually a good point though you like many have Made your point. Do we need to kneel to you and say you are right? Is it at least Possible maybe your wrong? Maybe these games Will be made? You as many are not buying a product? Why are you So invested in proving us wrong???? Its confusing but I wish you well.
Quoted from Mr68:I think its unfortunate that many of you are cherry picking only the titillating posts and focusing on them. There have been some solid comments that seem to go ignored here. I mean I understand your frustrations and the sense you're being ganged up on. But you guys only seem able to justify Deeproot's actions instead of artfully defending them.
I'm amazed that not a single one of you critically analyzed the latest Deeproot update or the one before it. As I said before, some of the anger here I believe is misplaced.
And if you believe games finally shipping will be vindication for you, its not that simple. There are way too many layers to this saga still to come and past predictions from the sceptics have already proved true.
There is nothing to “artfully defend” here. The melodrama is for the other thread We already purchased a game! If you need to justify why you decided to Not buy a game that is your decision and there is a thread for that! Thank you again for the PSA.
Quoted from hank527:Kim and I both have a lot of skin in the game, so to say. We want DR to succeed in hopes we get some of that $$$ back. I have $ 6500.00 on the line, so I guess I'm following as if DR is a success, we are more likely to get some of that $$$ back. I'd also like this to end as we are approaching an almost full decade of John's drama that I would like to be over.
The Who game that DR announced I'd like to see come to fruition as well. DR becoming a success creates more supply and may help the current price model for the entire community as ten years ago; Stern Pros could be had for $ 4k. I'd like to see an end to the mass inflation of prices. DR becoming a success could help that.
Sounds great and I do Hope Deeproot can bail you out of your investment in that Other company. Would be a great to see their effort make you whole again!
Quoted from Mr68:I did not. But that doesn't exclude me from commenting on an open forum.
I believe he simply asked if you ordered a Raza. Don't see where he told you you were not able to speak?
Quoted from DJNOEL30:Are all the RAZA orders closed for real or are there still orders available?
Yes closed.
Quoted from Tomass:Me, chillax? You are the one snapping at me and I have never even said anything to you. You need to relax since you are taking this way too seriously. If you have beef, send me a PM.
Btw, which is it? You snap and tell me to leave and then you say "do what you want", and contradict yourself. You are seriously mad that I want to follow the progress? I have not said 1 thing negative about the preorder guys or Deeproot.
Quoted from kklank:Do what you want. But I’m pretty sure none of the guys who ordered need you to “root” for us. We’re grown men.
Jesus, this isn’t a life or death situation. It’s a small down payment for a pinball machine. It’s just a hobby. Chillax. Lol.
Let me go on record and say #Tomass is Good people and FYI #KKlank be nicer to him as for record you currently have HIS beautiful BBB lol. It's all good sometimes we just get tired of everyone wanting to be our wife or mom. It just Pinball!!!
Quoted from Haymaker:I'm sorry I've been trying to keep mostly quiet in this thread but in my world "sorry you didn't get the game you paid for but if you still want one you can buy one again" isn't "making good on sales". I'd be very weary of buying a TBL and even more weary of buying whatever the next game they announce. At least I could have my deposit with a reputable distributor for that though.
Sorry not sure I understand. Yes I admitted that DP was an very odd business plan but they Are very slowly still making EA games and shipping them. NOT as fast as everyone wanted but they are still shipping games. Was in No way saying I love how DP is doing it but they are at least not running away from their EA sales. Just taking forever lol.
Quoted from Pinballer31520:Xtra preorder here. Deposit paid. Waiting and waiting. Anyone see any production line help wanted jobs being advertised at DeepRoot ?
I would think they would be hiring prior to assembly in enough time to train employees. I am sure the design team not doing the work.
While there have been job adds likely like most any short production line company (same with Stern, JJP) odds are they would focus on using temp labor agencies for these positions. Would be tough to hire/justify a glut of full time employees with benefits only to lay them off when the run is done. A single call and you could get 20 assembly laborers on-site in a day. Possibly the reason for all the cars in the lot now. Time will tell.
Quoted from iceman44:Fwiw, full Parking lot today on drive by
Oddly nobody will take your bet lol. Seemed like easy money for anyone confident.
Quoted from DakotaMike:How could anyone be confident that DR won't at least ship some Razas? By all accounts they are near the finish line. And no one but DR employees and insiders really knows what's going on in there. Even Steve Bowden, who works there, made it sound like he had no clue when Raza would ship.
A better bet would be will DR make any games after Raza? Or will their next game be out by the end of 2021. Those are bets ICE would get takers on.
Ok. Just seems most are so confident they will never make a game seems #iceman44 bet would be easy money with all that confidence.
Quoted from Fulltilt:I would take some of that money but can't find the post?
He has posted a dozen times in the other thread. I would take a bet that I get a game also. Easy money.
Quoted from wamonkey:WRB1977 - nice try confronting the crap fest in the other forum. I can’t believe how everyone thinks they have all the info on DR and how they will fail or how much cash they have etc. Many businesses lose money for years before making a profit, does that mean DR will make it, who knows.
Most people admit DR would likely build RAZA but that forum rambles on.
We should be getting an update soon...
Again WRB1977 good to comment I always think I want to comment but what would the point be, they all want to just talk crap.
Best to just leave it alone. The only opinion that matters is Yours.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Yeah, June sounds like a fair estimate to me. It's been a looooong wait. I'm getting anxious to actually see games go out the door.
Seems like a fair estimate and acceptable to me. On the long wait aspect I must have different expectations then others. I personally don't judge a wait by speculation or promotion but more so by Order date. Which in this case (to me) is still rather low and in the norm by my book. Waited 12 months for POTCCE, 18 months for WOZ, waited 3 years for BBB, waited Years for TBL all from deposit order so if 3 months is the norm I am fine with that especially with the unusual world events. But thats just me. Also looks like with deposit GnR fans will be in for a 12 plus month wait also so not much has changed other then our expectations.
Quoted from Makakka:Nice wait. Ordered Alien 2016 and still received nothing that’s a 5 year wait I’m running. Also probably have to shoot in more cash if the voucher won’t cover the full price. Crippling wait with cash injection bonus.
Ouch, hope your Alien finally lands. I'm on the PB Alien list myself Hoping it turns out better then the first attempt. Time will tell.
Quoted from Makakka:Did you apply for voucher?
No, luckily long ago I escaped that lost order que unlike many but opted to give it another go with PB. Heres to hoping it goes smoother this time.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Well, it feels like a long wait since deeproot started. And I keep expecting them to be almost ready to ship, and then months more go by. So it feels like a long wait to me.
Also, I firmly believe that RAZA wasn't supposed to ship with the Pinbar, and instead the Pinbar would've debuted on a subsequent game. I think RM decided to add it once the pandemic hit. It's the only way that I can explain the huge delay between last March's TPF "5 days" event and last Fall's failed event.
We can all theorize (seems there's a thread for that....) but we may never know what the original plan was (nor are we owed that story). Will only say from my world of manufacturing last year going into this year ALL time lines and expectations are Way off. Lead times for something as simple as a Molex plug are out weeks if not months so I'm personally not surprised there was a plan shift. As stated, like many in the past, pitches, rumors, marketing, etc mean nothing to me. The clock starts the day the order desk is Open. Not when the dialog starts. Last I checked there was no TPF last year let alone Any product shows so I don't think many were expecting a whole lot.
Quoted from kklank:Agreed. It’s nice to hear information from someone that has some background in manufacturing and amazing pinball skills.
Lol. I'm like a mad chimp playing pinball. Manufacturing however I do know. Just toured Tesla for some manufacturing equipment. Build in America, support America!
Quoted from Lermods:You are kidding or exaggerating, right? we buy parts from all over the world, including about 20 different kinds of connectors, pins, circuit boards, leds, wire, etc. not one time during the pandemic, except at the very beginning when Chinese ports closed, have we had an issue getting anything. The post office is another issue, but parts were all available and still are. If you order from China you can get it in under 3 weeks via dhl, often just a few days. Specialized parts are another story as they often rely on a single supplier, but that wasn’t what your comment reflected.
So comparing your use of a dozen mod connectors is the same as a product with Thousands of parts?? Sorry not a realistic example. Never said you couldn't Get anything I said the lead times are off the charts and manufactured components were beyond the norm by a Lot. Most of my (real life, not pinball trinkets) manufacturers in fabricating have 4 month plus back logs. Good for America, not great for those with Amazon expectations.
Quoted from Lermods:Dozen? Nope, we buy in lots of hundreds or thousands, like 500 connectors or a thousand pins, or 5000 feet of wire, etc. We go through this stuff fast (a lot of my time is spent building parts inventory), but we also order very far in advance in case something does become hard to find or their is extended delivery time, or it’s just cheaper to buy in larger quantity knowing we will eventually use the parts. Some is direct from China or other places overseas, some comes from suppliers here in the US. I would think a pinball manufacturer would use this same strategy. Point is, if I can get it, I’d be shocked a pinball manufacturer couldn’t. Go on mouser or other parts supplier websites, there’s tens on thousands of pretty much any connector available in just a few days. I know some major pinball companies order from these sites. Again, if it’s a specialized part, that would be different, but generic pinball parts are all available and can be had in a matter of days, always could be throughout the pandemic. It can’t be an excuse for delayed production.
I haven’t followed deeproot very closely, hardly at all, but I thought they only sold like 150 of these games.
Think you miss read my statement on quantity. I said dozens of Different parts not quantity ordered. Referring to your statement "order 20 different types of connectors" where as a pinball machine is made up of Thousands of Different types of components. Manufacturing at this scale of car or pinball machine is much more then Amazon or Alibaba parts orders at this scale. And as you said with only 150 units that Multiplies the difficulty 10x with the low volume count. NO manufacturer at this time will touch low volume custom parts orders without a Crazy lead time.
Quoted from frankmac:I don’t mind waiting as long as the line of communication is open.. unfortunately Yelobird is not Deeproot.. I understand where he is coming from but Deeproot should keep us updated as best as they can. What do they have to lose!
Hopefully some good news soon.
Fair enough though we did invest in a product not a company so they technically don't owe us much more then the product updates we have been given. Agreed, I am not Deeproot nor do I speak for them but I do try to manage my expectations according to what I signed on for. Some (not here) feel they are Owed facility updates, photo status, or what they are having for lunch. I am fine simply knowing the company is still forging ahead step by step to build the product we ordered. If this becomes a 7 month no update (kind of like the current GnR October orders) then I will begin to question.
Quoted from RobT:That's a pretty good summary of this thread.
Yeah, it’s a bit more realistic then the vendetta assumption hate train of wisdom. Lol. Wonder what everyone is going to do with their time when this game ships? Should be interesting.
Quoted from hank527:I’m sorry though the update is very bleak. Very doubtful that they spin up production.
It was an update how is that bleak? Offering a refund for those not willing to wait seems pretty stand up to me but I guess it depends on how hard you want to spin it. When they stop talking (DR not the posse) I will question.
Quoted from flynnibus:You are still going go have to put up the full amount to complete your bet though. You think you are going to know the game’s future when the time comes to pay your balance?
The deposit is just stage one of the gamble. Stage two is paying your balance. Stage three is hoping it doesn’t turn into a paperweight.
The only reason I wish for this game to be done honestly is to see an end to all this know it all Dribble! Seriously, how can anyone be So invested in something they have No investment in?? lol
Quoted from flynnibus:So many wonder how someone can bury their head as deep as you have that the world spins different in your universe
And I often wonder why you and so many are so concerned with my decisions and how I spend my money? Oddly even my wife doesn't do that?? Thank you so much for your concerns, if I need your advise I'll reach out.
Quoted from flynnibus:Do you make up non sense justifications when talking to her too? And expect her to just nod her head along with you?
Or do you respect her enough to call out your delusions?
People who think their only exposure is their initial deposit are just lying to themselves to make themselves feel better. Just having “something” ship is not a win
And I didn’t even question how you do something... you projected yourself on my post to someone else. So maybe it’s your own paranoia?
So much wisdom. Thanks mom.
Quoted from Mbecker:It’s amusing that there’s not much middle ground between this thread and the other. Very extreme on either side..
Yeah odd how they could be so extreme. One thread dedicated to hate for a company they know nothing about and the other made of fellow pinball collectors (Buyers) with No company affiliation being called delusional and other for the sole purpose of feeling important and wiser then thou. Can't see why there would be any divide??? I personally see no value in dedicating my time and life to hate for any product nor crapping on those that have an interest. If I have no interest I just move on. Simple enough.
Quoted from metallik:We know all we will ever need to know about jpop. The guy STOLE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS from many different persons. Yes that's going to introduce some bad feelings.
Amazing how folks can forget the past so easily.
Meanwhile y'all keep throwing cash at this trainwreck just so you can have a machine no one else has. FOMO at its finest.
I am certain we are all sorry for those that invested in a bad business decision but last I checked I did not send a deposit to Jpop? Nor is he the business owner. If he was, then I most certainly would have passed as I did with Zidware wisely. Deeproot has NOT stolen a dollar from a single buyer. Do you see anyone here making fun of or criticizing those that handed that Zidware clown cash based on Their own decision?? I like this game, I like what they are changing, and while not a well executed business I personally have confidence Deeproot Will make this game. Zidware not so much sorry........
Quoted from Charlemagne1987:I don’t have a dog in this fight, but my guess is that Deeproot WILL deliver on its promised 160 or so games. If they wanted to rip people off they would have asked for more deposit money and they wouldn’t now be talking about refunds for displeased buyers who laid down deposits. We all know of JPOP’s sins, but he IS an incredible designer and Deeproot took a calculated chance on him. I think the current delays are exactly as Robert says...shipping on parts due to the pandemic. I sincerely hope you guys get your games. RAZA looks awesome.
And Deeproot has some very cool pins in the pipeline. If/when they deliver on RAZA, they will prove to all of us that they are a company worth buying from.
Well said, couldn't agree more. Thanks.
Quoted from Mr68:It's not just Kaneda, Carey Hardy, Ben Heck or the sceptics in the Deeproot thread. Check out the final 30 minutes of the LoserKid podcast.
https://soundcloud.com/loserkidpinballpodcast/ep-57-deeproot-to-the-future
And these opinions matter why again? They hunt for viral media attention or have a personal axe to grind. They have their own mission I wish them well.
Quoted from metallik:dr is using jpop's designs.. designs that were started with stolen money. Makes all kinds of sense. Don't want to be associated with theft? Get rid of the thief, pretty simple. They're never going to disentangle what they're making now from what jpop promised 9 years ago.
Like DP TBL I also bought that game to Help fund those that got shorted a game and money. Hate it if you like
Quoted from Mr68:I was addressing the comment that Kaneda is somehow responsible for other people's thoughts. He's not alone on Deeproot and I gave examples.
Also, Carey Hardy is a bona-fide witness whose opinion should be highly regarded. To dismiss him is short sighted.
Luckily None of them are my advisor nor do their opinions mean anything to me so all’s well.
Quoted from Tomass:Go to the other thread where someone stated that he wishes they fail, then ignore all the upvotes along with him and the thread is not nearly as annoying anymore. Funny enough several other threads become better immediately as well.
Seems like to much work lol. Just odd to me that anyone would invest Soooo much time and commitment to something they have Sooo little investment or interest in?? Pinball can't be that boring?? At this point I think they have investigated everything short of Roberts dietary program lol. Just to little time in life to spend on that kind of effort.
Quoted from Makakka:Great motivation. Unfortunately the barbarians outnumber us and the gates are wide open...
[quoted image]
Yet they only matter if you give a crap what they think. I personally don't.
Quoted from RobT:What kind of bullshit statement is this? Veiled threat?
Seriously, some of you people have issues.
Look I realize the “other” thread likes to take a word and make a story about it but How did you possible read that as a threat in ANY way?? He simply thought it was Odd to use an infants photo as your forum handle his or others. Why would you read any further into that? That is the view of someone with issues sorry.
Seriously, I don’t see anyone here running to the hate side of the fence to enforce their views, WHY do some of you so badly feel the need to crap on anyone else’s opinion or decisions? If your looking for an “I told you so” come back in 6 months and blow your horn. For now let’s not make your Deeproot hate personal towards individuals. Please?
Quoted from pinstyle:And we all know what happened to this guy...... [quoted image]
He was part of a blockbuster movie?
Quoted from Kkoss24:I have one thing to say to all you who ordered RAZA .....I’m Jealous ! I had told my youngest to pick 3 pins he wanted and he picked RAZA ,DP and HWs(Hot Wheels).I was following the whole DR thing not knowing any history on the matter then I started reading .The masses ganged up to slam DR n more JPOP to the tune of 20k plus posts on the matter and you all know there’s no such thing as bad press . .Anyway I did let some doubt creep in since I was new to the hobby and went with the safe bet DP which is absolutly great but if I could go back I would go RAZA .You people are going to have a pin unlike any other ever made not only in bling but in play .They have theyre own way of doing things and that’s all good in my book .Can’t wait to see you get your pins .When Goonies Pops(no pun) I will not miss that boat .
No worries as long as you have a friend that has one. When mine arrives you and your sons are always welcome to return. Odd how this hobby can be FUN when your not hunting for hate! Enjoy that DP, absolutely one of our favorites!
Quoted from Makakka:Noone taking the RAZA relief fund. I dont qualifier as EU order.
[quoted image]
Nope but good to see he has changed his bet.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Just remember, limited doesn't automatically make a pin valuable or desirable. Only 150 America's Most Haunted were made, and they are frequently bought and sold for under $5k.
Lets hope this Ben Heck concept does better. AMH isn't that bad rather liked playing it.
Quoted from Krupps4:I’ve wondered if the early Spooky pins will garner more respect down the road as Spooky continues to grow. I’ve never played AMH but own a RZ and really like it. It’s not perfect but it has its own quirky charm and is better than people give it credit for. By way of example, I sold my Wonka but kept my RZ.
Think RZ just got a bad rap early when they showed it with rough code and so many glitches. Rather fun game for my taste. AMH I personally thought was ok at best no interest to own.
Quoted from NashtyFunk:I’m riding this out. The money isn’t really a concern. I believe some day I’ll get my game.
If I’m wrong it’s not gonna ruin my day.
Same position for me. I have waited more then 5 months for Many lessor titles and luckily the decision is mine and not that of the collective. We received an update while not what we wanted a continuing update which is all I expect. Honestly may even scoop up another should the opportunity happen.
Quoted from Roostking:So its the govt fault dr fails. I can see that actually, how many small businesses were put out of business, by "govt" this past year..
This is nit why dr will ultimately fail though.
Appreciate your input and advise. We will let you know how it goes. Thanks again.
Quoted from Roostking:Oops, thought I was posting in the reality thread to be honest. Either way...
No worries. Join your reality and have fun!
Quoted from wrb1977:This update changed nothing for me...I’m still 100% in.
Good for you making your own decisions! Never figure out how this ever became personal buyers vs the non-buyers debate? Dislike the company but hard to see how this needs to be personal against us or our decision. Odd though not concerning.
Quoted from Roostking:Because we've seen people burned for 10s of thousands before by pinball con artists. JPOP is a suspect #1 in that category, but RM took him in, so they and dr are tied at the hip. People need to know the history. How inconvenient it might be.
Also, not personal. I dont think anyone doesn't want you to get a pin, but many people dont understand how anyone other than initial ZIDWARE buyers would touch this with a 10 foot pole. FOMO and potential scarcity make people do funny things with money.
Ive asked you before, what are the signs YOU see that makes you believe this will happen?
Really? Not personal? Feel free to read your group chat including this thread for that groups call out of buyers, stupid, dopes, fools, cult, gullible, you can find the call outs yourself. Last I checked NOBODY on this buyers group took your or Anyones money. WE made a decision and NO I don't need to share why I made that decision with you! Why, because its really none of your business! I'm not here to sell you anything or persuade you with why I do anything. Trust me, by now we have ALL know the history, real, assumed, or other. Yet we made our decision. Save yourself time I personally don't need you to save me or convince me. I'm already convinced hence my Deposit! Come back to the thread in December with as many "I told you so's" as you like if that keeps you happy. Til then, you have all shared your wisdom and I personally thank you. I promise not to tell you what game you should or should not buy in the future. Promise!!
Quoted from TaTa:I'm officially out! Hoping they do honor the refund they're offering.
Good luck wish you well.
Quoted from Mbecker:I see your point, but when confidence is down on your company and skepticism is high, what do you do? Sit there emailing out ‘updates’ that give little info and show no valid progress for 6 months on something that was set to ship 5 months ago? Stern and jjp have nothing to prove, all confidence is with them despite delays. There is no question GnR games will ship, stern is a manufacturing machine. And Haggis is doing it right, for a startup.
Not to mention for all of Roberts ego, don’t you think as a new company you’d be proud to post pictures of all these playfields , cabs, and translites ready to go?? Manufacturing line????! Unless.... somethings amiss? We all know the octo manufacturing was bullshit. There’s no trade secrets to hide, only what isn’t happening.
You have each shared your Same point. If you want pictures or more info just go buy one! Sheesh you guys Really need to find a new hobby other then days of Deeproot.
Quoted from Mbecker:Lol - we’ve all made the same points over and over again. all the drama is here, and I’m very interested to see what happens. I think this is simply discussion, no one repeated the exact same thing. But if you prefer the thread can sit dormant again till July.
Also I can’t go buy one until they all ship..
Thanks see you in a few months. Silence has more value then the continuous drum beating of jibberish.
Quoted from Calfdemon:Pinside would be a very boring place if no one posted and there were no discussions. You have the ability to ignore or drain if you don't want to read someone's different opinion than your own. I don't understand people's need to try and silence others. Either don't read or dont comment if you wish. Or continue to comment, but others have the right to comment and discuss as well, even if you don't agree. You are welcome to heed your own advise if you want...
In the Owners thread, No I don't care about your view, opinion, as a non owner. Thanks.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Ain't no owners here. Maybe someday...
Very true. The investors thread. IE, already made the decision. The all things to hate about Deeproot thread is already there for all to beat the drum. To be honest at this point deposit or otherwise I only want DR to make this game for one single reason. To smile and watch that group crawl back under a rock. Again, Why this has become such a "holly then thou" thing for some in that group taking swipes at people that simply bought something They Want is absolutely comical. Dislike what you wish but crap on them not us. I do not follow angry mobs to take a side, I choose my own path and make my own decisions. As everyone in this thread has.
Quoted from klbonn:wrb1977
I am using little words for you, because according to you I am slow. My apologies I read your warm and heartfelt advice, and read the OP's first post. You are one hundred percent correct; this is an exclusive owners preorder thread. What a special thing to belong to. I truly hope all of you get great working pins, and that Deeproot will flourish, as do all pinsiders.
Oh, by the way, you can look up my collection. I'm sure anybody who owns one of those games will not disparage from adding their considerable knowledge, opinions, views, and expertise to the discussions.
Thanks,
Christopher
Pretty sure his reply was not directed at you? None the less welcome to pinside sounds like you have a nice collection.
Quoted from klbonn:To Yelobird and wrb1977 ,
I apologize for my misunderstanding. I am new to posting, and still learning how to. I misread the quoted text. Thank you for your understanding.
Sorry,
Christopher
Wow you weren't kidding Nice collection! Soooo want a Spirit some day and a Hotdoggin. Great collection.
Quoted from kklank:I think I get the whole Boomer thing now.
It seems like it’s used at times by a younger person to be dismissive to someone older at times. Not ALL the time though.
But I’ve seen a number of times that term used in different threads and it’s never been a compliment.
There’s a lot of extremely intelligent people on Pinside that are very strong at debate. Flynnibus comes to mind. I don’t agree with most of the stuff he throws out there but I respect his opinion.
When I see someone call someone else a Boomer, I feel that person has given up on articulating their position and throws out the “Boomer” comment. Basically showing their weak, immature and have no intellect. In other words, a pussy. Lol!
Well said and spot on definition.
Quoted from TreyBo69:How about we not use any dismissive language at all? Wouldn’t that be grand.
Imagine that, a pinball forum dedicated to discussing pinball and not new cool guy terms to insult others! Don't suspect he was targeting you personally just the slang in general. Personally I have not seen or viewed your posts as offensive or personal just participatory.
Quoted from iceman44:Well I’ve been focused on rehabbing a total knee replacement since April 1st and then getting through another tax season.
It’s nice to see nothing has changed other than the “combative” stuff has spilled over to this club thread. Lol
For the guys still hanging in I’ll remind you that the local guy that has more hours on this pin than any non employee really likes it a lot and puts it up there with my top games.
So we will see and I’ll wait to watch some heads twist off now.
I realize even the haters are getting tired of hearing themselves chatter and begging DR to put an end to it.
Welcome back hope the surgery was uneventful.
Quoted from Haymaker:What if the game comes out but theres no pinbar? Does that change anything for you guys?
It will be on there as sold.
Quoted from Haymaker:what if it isn't though?
Guess we’ll just see if that does happen. Likely not.
Quoted from thechakapakuni:JJP ditched the original spinning magnet
Ok?
Quoted from Stemmy:Look at it this way. You have an iron clad contact people can not back out of. Which is actually beautifully written. Now your giving people the option to back out of. How does that make sense? Get someone that understands contractual law. Do whatever. But RM has done a bunch of SEC fillings. If he does not offer refunds this opens him up to SEC scrutiny which is far worse than anything we could do because fraud would become involved.
Ok, your out we get it. Thanks.
Quoted from Stemmy:I'm not here to start shit but facilitate a true discussion on the possibility that this is never going to happen and that people who need to get their money out do. I support anyone going for the ride and hopefully suceed. I hope I kick myself later.
All of those that ordered received the same option to make up our own mind. Thanks.
Quoted from Stemmy:Dude no reason to be smug. Just stating some facts. Trying to give a different perspective. Sorry you don't approve
I’m not being smug but Maybe consider coming back when your not drinking!
Quoted from kklank:My take is completely different.
I feel RM is sick and tired of all the naysayers. So he’s saying “you want out? No problemo. Here’s your refund. I’ve got people lined up to take your spot.
Next!”
I don’t see it as a sign of folding at all but more of a sign of being sick and tire of the delay due to shortages and maybe some mistakes due to lack of experience. Regardless, he’s pissed and can’t wait to prove some people wrong.
Either way, it’s fun to be a part of the journey.
What boomer said!
Quoted from NevadaNutJob:it is odd that DR won’t even show pics of playfields , back glasses or bare cabs - anything- to instill some confidence . Whether assembly has begun or not if the game was originally scheduled to begin shipping in February surely the playfields and glasses / trans lights are printed . I’d love to see this built but Dr is definitely begging people to get out - seemingly so they don’t have to build it .
Odd yes and would be welcome but not required. If I was an owner/investor in the company yes but in a product not so much.
Quoted from Stemmy:There is a fact that people are not getting paid down there. First rule is to make sure your employees are paid no matter what. Just saying I've "Only Begun To Drink"
Outside of this story telling forum can you show Proof of this statement? Again not from something on this forum.
Quoted from Stemmy:Give it a listen. There are some convincing arguments in there. Keep in mind I want this too. But I have no inclination of giving money for someone else's benefit without something in return.
You submitted for refund. You can now be happy and move on to something you can feel more confident in. Best to you.
Quoted from metallik:The only reason to pre-order is to try to get something difficult to obtain
Isn't that the definition of a bet? To obtain something IE a win??
Quoted from metallik:both your time and money are wasted.
Kind of funny you have to admit. At least we have a bet down. Some have invested Hundreds of posts, hours, research, with No investment (skin in the game). Thats the definition of wasted time in my book lol. I tend to see a game I don't like shrug my shoulders and walk away. Not spend countless hours trying to convince others why they are wrong. I just see wasted time differently though I guess.
Quoted from metallik:Y'all are doing this for status, to own a rare game... not because the process is fun. Stop fooling yourselves.
Or.... We enjoy pinball and this game looks fun? I'm sure your right though...
Quoted from metallik:The equivalent of sitting at home, alone in your underwear playing online poker for real money. If that entertains you, rock on. For most people, gambling is about the camaraderie.
Yep, I will make it a point to become BFF's with my bookie next time I place a bet as I don't want to win I just want a buddy to hang out with.
Quoted from Haymaker:I wish you all luck.
Thanks, will let you know how it goes.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:[quoted image]
Seems to me, all has not been given up yet as you can read above from the end of May update, just as from the previous update. If orders drop, orders will be filled in. So I'm staying in. Hoping there will be very few who will drop out.
Guess its all in how you want to read it. I don't see a sky is falling personally. Though they wouldn't let me buy a cancel yet lol.
Quoted from iceman44:It doesn’t fit the hate thread narrative. Lol
You don’t think people have lined up to take one of the 130 games in THIS crazy market?
For some reason so many people want DR to be canceled. I get the Robert hate, he brought it on himself, and the Jpop angle but isn’t over the top a bit to go on and on about it?
It’s entertaining for them? Seems like a waste of life but whatever knock yourselves out.
All that nonsense ain’t gonna change a thing. DR is gonna be around and Raza is getting made.
I can see why some guys like Ben do it. He had a personal relationship with John and now hates the guy. John is or was an egomaniac and Ben is a good guy.
Some people are just hypocrites. They got their MGs, flipped for profits, with everyone’s money and only now want Jpop to disappear.
It’s all good. It’s just a pinball game
Spot on assessment.
Quoted from flynnibus:Yes, but when people say "its only $500" that's non-sense... $500 is just the opener... They don't get to gamble on the prize without the remainder. So talking about $500 vs the potential prize is just lying to yourself.
The people who only have a deposit in have much more to gain, then to lose at this point... because it's only $500 and they don't want to lose their spot at the table. The deposit is small enough to keep deferring the decision. And many people have DR fake money tied up in it all, so they too have far more to gain, then to lose if they wait. So they'll wait it out.
I just don't see those who are committed at this point to be flocking to request refunds while the DR news still leads to...
[quoted image]
If people get called to pay invoices for the balance before DR has established credibility... that's a much bigger bet and that's the big curiousity for me. Can DR build enough faith to get people to send in those balances?
If they get to a spot like DP did.. where games might trickle out... will people make the big gamble?
I bet this audience does... because they all think it's gonna pay off.
You've played this song a dozen times we get your point already. After deposit final payment is due when game is on the line ready to ship. I'm good with that so no sense worrying about us I'm sure you have much more important problems to solve. Thanks
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:So we’re to believe DR wants refunds to turn around and sell the spots for $13k or whatever?
And buyers are lined up?
This hobby is stupid enough, so probably checks out.
Don't think I read anything like that but I guess it depends on how you read between the lines.
Quoted from Kkoss24:Not sure if you guys saw .This was in the haters thread .If not enjoy
[quoted image]
Think most are aware of the other thread and content we just choose not to participate as its a different dialog. No need to drag it around. With that said I do appreciate the Iceman's input.
Quoted from wamonkey:The other forum will lite on fire when they charge $12K for the handful available too.
And I will care as much as I do now. lol
Quoted from Jack8765:Why would they have a list if it serves no purpose?
I think there is a just a miss communication. They noted they Do have a list and would contact those on the list at the end of the Raza run if there are any cancelations. May update. Know you have an open invite to play mine when it arrives.
Quoted from Concretehardt:I’m sure it has been covered but didn’t DR say they were going to do a small overrun over the total number of pre ordered games?
No longer as noted on the last update posted.
Quoted from Makakka:Deeproot offer refunds bc of breaking all timelines. Bc of that already sold spots get vacant. A new buyer steps in to fill the gap. As a thank you deeproot burns an extra premium on his ass. That is just odd/unimaginable. and a total different story than someone who buys an extra machine deeproot deliberately built without an "original" buyer.
Willing to accept a 3 digit bet on that (if anyone demanded a refund).
Kind of like JJP did with GnR?
Quoted from Haymaker:tbh I'd rather be hanging with the realistic negative guy
Luckily there are Plenty in the other thread for you to hang out with! Have fun.
Quoted from Haymaker:I'd still hang out with you tho
Always welcome.
Quoted from DakotaMike:I nearly went in on a RAZA, got as far as the cart before changing my mind. So serious question to those that did go in, what do you think of this lengthy delay, and especially what do you all think of Robert?
To me, Robert seems to be either a liar or grossly incompetent:
1) Robert said that this wasn't a pre-order, and yet after 7 months games still haven't shipped. So I'd say by any definition, this IS a pre-order.
2) Robert said that Deeproot's money was HIS money, and yet he's taken over a million dollars in PPP loans. So clearly that statement is also false.
While I do appreciate that deeproot gave refunds, I'm very concerned that Robert is the one making the decisions, given just a small sample of his track record. So I'd love to know if you guys share these concerns or what?
No concerns at all and have personally waited more then 5 months for much lessor titles. I for one am well aware of all he has said in the past as it’s been replayed by many hundreds of times and personally could care less. I bought a pinball machine not a relationship/partnership with RM. I’m not in love with Gary Stern yet I buy every game. Still have little concern on this project no matter how much people love to doubt our decision. Luckily my decision is all that matters.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:But I‘m sure Gary loves YOU for that!
Possible but likely not. He (his team) makes a product I buy a product I like. No love just a mutual interest.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:A large pre-order waiting list of people that weren’t interested at half the price for the whole month of ordering opportunity, but are in line now to pay double? Sounds like RM all right.
Half price? Wow so they are worth 20k now awesome must have missed that news.
Quoted from wrb1977:Couldn’t agree more. I ordered a Halloween, only my second nib and first from Spooky, and it was refreshing knowing they will deliver. Halloween has always been my grail theme so it’s definitely made my excitement for RAZA diminish almost to the point I don’t care anymore. It’s part of why I kicked Ned to the curb as my avatar. Now that being said, I’m still in the “game” and maybe we will get pleasantly surprised at some point in the near future??? I have just put RAZA on the back burner mentally for the time being. But yes, I too feel like an asshole at times, you are not alone.
Being a bit hard on yourself. Most understand this would be a long run option. Kind of like Halloween in a way. Most will wait 12 plus months till that game ships likely more but it will come eventually. I had no expectations this game would launch fast and still feel its well worth the wait.
Quoted from Roostking:This is nothing like Halloween lol. Spooky has delivered pins and will continue to deliver pins, on schedule.
dr has delivered nothing. To compare the 2 is laughable, and youve been around longer than me.
Huh? I simply said he will likely wait 12 months for Halloween also. Try not to read to much into it.
Quoted from Roostking:But, RAZA was announced and promised how many years ago? Comparing another potential 12 month delay for RAZA from dr that has produced notta, with an announced schedule from a boutique manufacturer that has delivered in time, multiple times is just not a real comparison. Surely, you understand that.
Ok again your reading a bit further into my simple statement all good. Raza (for me as not a historian) was announced end of December for market so under six months on my clock. Not off target by my standard for a start up but everyone has different expectations.
Quoted from Jvspin:However, I think most people in the other thread aren't consumed by hate nor do they so badly want to see DR fail, they just question how DR can succeed given the previous track record, RM's leadership, etc...
Huh? Is there a third thread I missed?
Quoted from Concretehardt:Yep in the beginning (2012) it wasn't RAZA it was BHZA
[quoted image]
Yeah I remember that. Was a different kind of friendship back then compared to now.
IMG_7019 (resized).jpgQuoted from TheFamilyArcade:That poster proves how bat shit crazy Jpop is. And why Ben ran away screaming. And why everyone else should have. “Mystery Mechs”, “super goodie bag”, DIY pinball kit, “play the trailer”, “Two Shooters”. Jesus H. Christ, stop the madness.
Yeah those two were an interesting team with interesting ideas. Fun times.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Robert M’s decision to delay an update was a mistake. He promised the community they would get an update and then didn’t provide it. It would have been easy to provide one. By missing another deadline, Robert gets a strike for lying. Granted this is a minuscule one and more of one of poor planning. But Robert has a credibility problem and this didn’t help.
In the one decision, he also made a mistake by linking being able to report meaningful progress with releasing the update. He never told us that was what he was doing but it likely was what he meant. So Robert was unclear with his intent. The problem with waiting to report something until there is significant progress is the unpredictability it causes. So if event doesn’t occur, you rationalize, it will happen in a few weeks and then you’ll report. Well the thing you are waiting for inevitably takes forever to occur, and so when you give that update three months have gone by.
Until now our understanding of Robert running the company was he had raised tons of capital and he could continue at will for as long as the funds hold up. That is still unchanged but know that he has investors and a board to answer to. Once one of them sees the money suck going on and puts their foot down. The operation will be shut down. I believe this is already occurring and this is why I selected Aug 31 as important. That is not any official date but would be a reasonable point in Deeproot’s timeline to be shipping games or laying everybody off. Robert M’s background is making profitable investments and were he to look at his own books, he’d have to see it is time to give up. While you may be tempted to look at what was spent to get here, it is better to focus on what the future looks like. Those tea leaves are saying run Forrest, run!
You should just ask for a refund. Fair enough if your not interested in waiting. Everyone has there breaking point. Good luck.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Fortunately no money is in and I would have taken a refund the first time it was offered. Way back when people were signing contracts not to sue JPOP. Had I missed that deadline I would taken the money the second time it was offered.
I have no doubt Robert could build the 130 games, making all purchasers happy. But I also believe he wants to do it at a reasonable cost. Therein lies the problem. Example #1 - Games selling for $7k (??) each should cost no more than $4k (??) to build. If they cost 1 cent more than $7k, they are losing money on every game built. Also their production costs are out of wack!
Example #2 - Lots of bad decisions are made by the company president. Lacking competence the company president focuses on insignificant aspects and so is surprised by every issue that comes up.
If Robert were to look at the financials, he’d conclude it was a bad investment. Lots of capital was spent, way more than what should have been. Too many unanswered issues left to solve. No million dollar inventory or fixed asset to draw on for the $20M (??) spent to date. Stay in business and hemorrhage millions a month. He probably still has enough $ to build games for everyone and he may have the desire to proceed at any costs. But what comes after building RAZA?
I’m sure DR appreciates your deep analysis of their business plan. I for one just want one of the 130 games and could honestly care less how they do it or how much they make. Selfish maybe but I have better things to do then evaluate someone else’s business margins or plans. I just buy games my family or friends look like fun!
Quoted from Calfdemon:He bought Cosmic Carnival (game #1 I believe?), so not sure that is something he really cares about.
And just for context, this is not a rip or a jab. Just stating a fact that I remember him getting Cosmic Carnival when Suncoast was about to go belly up and that didn't stop him. So I am thinking he has the ability to keep his games going under his own abilities. He is a mod-maker after all...
Very true and appreciated. Yes, I have been around pinball for MANY years and long ago there were NO spares for Anything yet we always managed to get the games going. Cosmic just like the Alien I owned have never really been all that hard to figure out and with the knowledge sharing in forums like this I have yet to come across a bricked forever game. As long as code is playable (which looks very much the case in this title) the rest is simple tinkering if anything goes wrong. I own games from United, Chicago Coin and dozens more long since out of business and they still play like new. I have absolutely NO concern with this game.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:I was reading TWIP this week and they summarized the TPS interview of Spooky where Charlie says, we have all the parts in to begin the first build (of 1250 Halloween and 500 Ultraman’s). I don’t know how many of the total “first build” includes but if I had to take a wag and knowing Charlie is a straight shooter, I’d say enough parts to build 500 games. The number is not important, rather Spooky let us know they are starting production and confirmed they have 100% of the parts on hand to do the builds. That shows competence and it is what we need to hear from Deeproot. In Dec 2021, 130 RAZA orders were placed and games were expected to be built by March. The last update from them was in June, where they announced some proportion of some portion of the parts that were needed to build 130 games were in. That is weak sauce.
Thats awesome very happy for Charlie. Hope you got in on Halloween!
Quoted from kklank:Don’t forget you hired my services to do repairs for you………because of my incredible skill set.
Yeah I do recall that not every time I hit the flippers my toilet flushes. Lol
Quoted from wrb1977:Wilhelm at deeproot indicated that according to Robert a RAZA update was likely this week. I do not think this will be the “now shipping” update everyone is hoping for, however, I do think this will be a very significant update with specifics as to their progress. Maybe wishful thinking...thoughts anyone???
Thoughts. The update should be enough fuel for the other thread to hit 30,000 posts. Lol. JK. Look forward to the next update. As long as the communications continue I am satisfied appreciate the info.
Quoted from DakotaMike:But he DID delay an update DS_Nadine--Robert said after the 4th of July holiday he'd give an update. That was two weeks ago now. I feel like it's disingenuous to pretend that we're still in "after-the-holiday-weekend" territory here. It's obvious this is another missed deadline from Robert (albeit a minor one). Unless we're no longer supposed to take Robert's statements at face value?
I don't know why Robert even bothers to put dates on things, it just gives him another timeline to miss. And sure, the follow-up email did say an update would be coming this week (no specific day), but the email also implied that an update could be even sooner. Which obviously didn't happen.
So while deeproot still has plenty of time to get an announcement out this week, no matter what day they release an update, it will certainly be at least a bit later than we could have expected based on Robert's last communication. Not that it really matters of course, but it is another in a long line of broken promises and missed deadlines from deeproot.That sounds like quite the pipedream! But if the next update does include those things, then I'll happily make an extra donation to Pinside as a show of penance!
The buyers will let you know when there is an update. Thanks again for your concern.
Quoted from Cheeks:I wonder this all the time about so many people around here (and basically internet forums on just about any topic). Without pointing figures at anyone in particular, some people must have incredibly pathetic and depressing lives. The constant attention paid by people regarding things they don't even like is beyond me. Whether it's ranting about a deeproot game you didn't purchase, constantly shitting on Stern/JJP/<any vendor> just so you can fan the flames, trolling / starting internet fights, or any other obsession about something you don't have any interest in - I categorically don't get it.
Hell, I get exhausted even thinking about catching up on an owners thread for a game I own (and care about), much less keeping tabs on things I don't like.
I guess I just don't understand the typical internet user mentality. I tend to live my life AVOIDING things I don't care about, if I can help it. To spend large percentages of your life spewing negativity on an internet forum just feels so sad. Why can't people find something they like and go do it! The number of people that would rather make enemies than friends baffles me. But I guess take a look at the world these days and I don't understand why I continue to be surprised.
Well said completely confusing to me??
Quoted from metallik:Is there a reason you can't just go in the door and ask "hey what's up?"
Is there a reason you or anyone in the other group don’t?? You guys seem to be the ones in despair needing something to chat about. Go knock, ring the bell do whatever you like. Have fun!
Quoted from metallik:Any other silly questions?
Nope, you guys covered most of those multiple times thanks.
Dear god Deeproot Please send Any update even a lunch menu so these guys can go back to there cave and over analyze it for a few weeks lol. I’ll say it again, at this point I only want this game made now so these guys have nothing else to talk about lol. Though not likely.
Quoted from metallik:Oh come on, if this is released we'll be talking about it even more. How does it shoot, where is it available to play, does the pinbar work, is the code complete...
You'll also finally get a real club thread then so there's that.
The one thing that will hopefully change with a release is your grumpy attitude
Come on it’s all love. I know my arcade will always be open to anyone that wants to give it a flip. It’s only pinball.
Quoted from kklank:If it makes you feel better, we’ll listen.
Lol, not really.
Quoted from Stemmy:At the end of the day we are still stake holders. If RM can't be transparent I know I'm not the last 1 who will say good bye I will never order another machine from you.
Answering yourself in both threads. Don’t worry you’ll feel better after the hang over.
A brief intermission from recent wave of Raza analysts... Our playfield (2) showed up today donated by DR to Project Pinball to support Gilbert Elijah and his family. The Mod Couple is Proud to support the amazing efforts and kindness of the Project Pinball team. Amazing people!!!! Now we have an uncut and prototype Raza on display autographed by the team at DR. Both look spectacular and remarkably all the inserts are well defined and look great. lol
Fun project: The other thread can use this as a "Wheres Waldo" hunt to see which names are new or old from 1 year ago! Have fun!
Quoted from wrb1977:It’s official...
The RAZA preorder thread is just an extension of the main deeproot thread (aka the sewer). It’s sad that something as simple as respecting the wishes of the OP as he stated in his very first post cannot be adhered to. Once again, and this time I’ll try to make it stand out...from the OP’s very first post as to the intent of this thread and who is welcome to participate...
“Starting a thread to allow people that have pre-ordered RAZA to discuss their purchase outside of the general Deeproot thread.”
“Starting a thread to allow people that have pre-ordered RAZA to discuss their purchase outside of the general Deeproot thread.”
“Starting a thread to allow people that have pre-ordered RAZA to discuss their purchase outside of the general Deeproot thread.”
Got it??? PEOPLE THAT HAVE PRE-ORDERED RAZA!!!
Got it??? PEOPLE THAT HAVE PRE-ORDERED RAZA!!!
Got it??? PEOPLE THAT HAVE PRE-ORDERED RAZA!!!
As in...and I’ll go slow for you...all you inconsiderate, disrespectful, shit stirring Pinsiders should not be here unless you...ready for it???...
PRE-ORDERED RAZA!!!
PRE-ORDERED RAZA!!!
PRE-ORDERED RAZA!!!
And finally, those that say you are looking out for us...
WE ALREADY PUT OUR HARD EARNED MONEY DOWN ON SOMETHING WE HOPE TO OWN CAUSE IT LOOKS COOL AND FUN!!!
So instead of making fun of us, thinking we are a bunch of idiots, and thinking we are clueless not seeing the red flags (cause guess what??? we are very aware of all of them!!!), why don’t you try being more supportive of your fellow pinheads and hope their gamble pays off, and not lose the money they already spent. We are all here cause we love pinball! Deeproot failing, which many of you hope happens, only results in your fellow pinball enthusiasts getting hurt and jobs being lost at deeproot. Show some class. Feel free to talk all the shit you want in the general deeproot thread...not here!
I’ll see those of you that preordered RAZA in the owner’s thread assuming they eventually ship. Any of you preorder guys feel free to PM me anytime to discuss this journey outside of the “two” sewers.
Don't let them get to you. They are bored hunting for grains of nothing.
Quoted from spfxted:So do I need to have pre ordered RAZA to post here?
Heck no your always welcome. All I request is an autographed copy (to buy) of your soon to release monster mag to complete my awesome collection.
Quoted from kklank:What in the fuck is a “pre-player”??????
I think it’s similar to pre-cum? Not sure.
Quoted from kklank:Let me see here………….I’ve got a used Dolly playfield, Big Game and Harlem Globetrotters And new Quicksilver playfield I’ll trade you for the prototype.
Lol no thanks. Dolly is mean.
Quoted from Frax:Ya'll want to have a hissy fit over anything that doesn't agree with your position,
Oddly it feels the exact Opposite from my position. lol
Quoted from Frax:I primarily would like Deeproot to succeed just for Bowden's sake. It's terrible that guy gave up a career to go work for a company that sure SEEMS like it's going to explode. Take that as you will.
Yep great guy I'm sure he appreciates your support.
Quoted from spfxted:Which one?
[quoted image]
I have your complete autographed set though I seen you make mention of a New mag your working on. Need to keep my collection of your awesomeness complete.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:The main reason this thread got woke and is keeping it real now, may be because no public thread on Pinside can be used to exclude non-owners. As such anyone interested in a thread can respond. But you may say, “This is an Owners’ thread and Pinside etiquette is no one can post negative or unflattering comments”. That part is true but remember, Pinside has a hard rule against allowing an Owners thread to be opened BEFORE production is underway. For that reason this thread is an illegitimate Owners thread, and it has become more of a really popular place to post your thoughts on Deeproot, while they get their shit together and build 130 mf games.
If that had occurred as promised by Deeproot at the time of selling and accepting deposits on RAZA, the games would have been built in March. The past four months of posts in this thread would have been about how great the game was. People would be requesting tweaks to the rules, Mod Makers would be swimming in orders for accouterments. We’d be over at threads reading about Deeproot games #2 and #3.
Thanks for the rules update much appreciated.
Quoted from kklank:This thread has certainly been interesting. Lol.
I don’t get it but to me it’s just pinball. All fun stuff.
Hey Yelobird,
What kind of beer you want when you come over and play this machine when it finally comes out?
I’m going to have some Miller Lite bottles and some Pappy Van Winkle I got as a gift for a special occasion. Maybe over the rocks.
The maybe some Pineapple Guppy IPA after.
You had me at Pappy....
Quoted from DakotaMike:Tick...tick...tick...the clock is ticking down. Not much time left in the week of the 19th for an announcement.
Although, I suppose some will still try to defend and claim that the email promising this week was "not official".
Not sure what's so hard about just admitting that deeproot missed yet another deadline. It's farcical at this point.
But I guess there are still a like 7 hours left in the business day. So there's still time, I suppose.
Not going to defend as the only ones bothered by it didn't buy a game lol.
Quoted from Roostking:Horny, or ornery?
He was watching his dog go to the washroom I think we know which one lol. JK!
Quoted from Roostking:Whats your point?
dr still wont deliver, is my point. Care to refute?
Seems we made our point by placing an order no? lol
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Did you get the email?
Yes we did.
Quoted from metallik:Feel bad for y'all, this is not a great update. DR basically wrote themselves a doctors note allowing them to skip any more updates indefinitely. Notice how they made it quite clear they won't issue refunds despite this new legal issue. Court resolution can take years... how long are you buyers willing to wait at this point?
Doesn’t bother me as much as non buyers clearly. Lol. I’m in for the long game not concerned.
Quoted from Mr68:I know it's long and from an outsider but please read.
I was in on the original Zidware fiasco and I got tired of the Pinside abuse just as you guys must be. My solution was to take myself and my brothers off of Pinside and I formed a secret Facebook group. It's easy and quick to do, it's invited members only, and no one, absolutely no one can see or read your private thoughts and no one can discover the group accidently or not. Check Facebook for more information.
Whoever sets up the group is the administrator and they can appoint a co-administrator or two. You already know many of the people that are legitimate RAZA people in this thread and all they need to do is tell you their Facebook profile and the administrator sends them the confidential invitation from the FB group. The administrators can also kick people out.
Unknown people you will need to screen to make sure they are legitimate. **This is critical to keep out the riff raff**. Anybody I was unfamiliar with I had them scan and send me a copy of the Zidware contract before sending them an invite. I don't know what proof you guys might have but I'll leave that up to you. If someone is not on Facebook right now have them join. It's free and easy for anyone to do. And if they don't, too bad for them.
After you have your base group from this thread established, post a notice here for others to join and tell them there is a screening process. You guys have a few RAZA lukers I'm certain.
You have some really solid people in here and I would suggest Yelobird, Frankmac, Fulltilt, DS_Nadine, wrb1977, or Cheeks to be your administrators. Wow, there is a lot of really good people here and those are just off the top of my head. Sorry to those that I missed .
I'm telling you, this really works and you will have peace of mind while sending a big screw you to guys like me. The Big Lebowski people in the early years followed me with this idea and they had a blast returning to their Pinside thread now and then and taunting the boo-birds about their private sanctuary.
Also I would strongly suggest that you invite Robert Mueller to the group or an appointee from Deeproot. An appointee would be more likely.
One last thing I will tell you. Iceman will poo poo this idea to death because it's associated with me and he has a never ending vendetta against me. He's a smart guy and can be very convincing so I'll leave it up to you guys.
But I promise you, drain both threads until you're ready and you will have peace of mind and the doubters in this thread will just be talking to themselves. It will drive them crazy.
Also, prepare yourselves for a massive slow down as it wont match the pace of two Pinside threads. It will feel like nothing is happening... But there won't be any heat for you guys either and you can discuss things freely.
Opps. One last, last thing. Iceman will go along if everyone else does but be advised he will dominate the conversation and will try to take the group over. He has an insatiable need to be the center of attention and feel like he's captain of the ship.
Meh, maybe let him be a co-administrator if it makes him feel better. I won't care as I wont be there.
PS. He has me blocked so he might not see this.
Sincere best wishes guys. PM me if you have questions. You guys still have a long ways to go.
I respect your words and suggestions. I thank you.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Couldn't help myself Yelobird, you make the perfect "This Is Fine" meme example. All in good fun![quoted image]
No issues. We made this decision so it’s ours to bare. If others feel all warm and bubbly crapping on fellow collectors because we didn’t take their position more power to you. As I have said before. Totally understand the negative vibe towards DR. That’s your right that nobody should need to defend. Why making it personal against others in the hobby makes them feel giddy is beyond me. I’ll tap out when/if the update says they failed. Till then there’s really not much to say.
Quoted from benheck:[quoted image]
So I understand the gleeful reply. They closed a Facebook page that was simply a catchall for hate posts, and a Linkedin page so you now have proof they closed. Ok totally makes sense now.
Quoted from benheck:Ya'll were warned. Ya'll didn't listen.
I shall remove myself now to the "other" thread.
Also JPOP is a hack.
Sad to see the BFF partnership lost. You two looked so happy and playful designing Raza.
8FC0930E-64C8-43AE-954E-807877635FD8 (resized).jpegQuoted from NoQuarters:How old is that photo ?
Does it matter? I simply said it was sad two creative partners had a falling out. Interesting to see how they created Raza in a garage.
Quoted from Frax:No, actually, I haven't. And I wasn't the first person to mention that so what the hell ever, man.
I couldn't care less that you were trying to make some asinine joke that fell on it's face. Use the sarcasm tag if you're joking. Otherwise, I assume you're an idiot. Expecting that every person on the face of the earth is going to get your reference to a 40+ year old movie is.....ignorant at best.
Actually, 3 people did comment and understood it was an Animal House reference. Try not to take it to serious or personal. We are just having fun.
Quoted from Mr68:I sure hope nobody finds my high school year book.
True That! lol Let alone some of the things we wrote in them!
Quoted from Roostking:Umm, it's common knowledge that Ben and Jpop worked together.
And I thought we all loved to rehash Every word/event in RAZA history or is that only select events. None the less seemed like a happy team of creators.
Quoted from Roostking:Clearly, a big time RAZA believer had no idea that many people around here knew Ben and Jpop worked together. I'm sorry I had to be the one to inform him that we all knew this was effed long ago, where as he may just now be researching that, and finding out for himself. Others have.
Sorry the research department is in the other thread. I kid…. You guys have fun
Quoted from frankmac:Still bald..
Ehhh we all age in time. Us pinball people are rarely models lol. Plus Ben is still doing what he loves so that’s a good life.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Hey Yelobird, is it really true that you're on the hook for two paid-in-full XTRA editions? By the way you've been talking this whole time, I assumed that you were just down for a deposit.
Man, you'd have to be a really wealthy guy to not sweat the thought of losing 20 grand to deeproot.
Didn’t buy 2 for myself not sure what you would do with spare games? Was there a benefit to paying in full? Likely just wanted to fuel the speculation pond lol. None the less my deposit(s) are still confirmed by Amex as (don’t worry about it) from my last call. I know you guys are concerned for us, we appreciate you.
Quoted from benheck:DID YOU KNOW....
John never created a contract or "use of likeness" agreement with me back when the game was BHZA. He just says "I'm gonna make a game about you!" and starts commissioning art.
Ya'll have hitched your wagon to a HORSE WITH NO LEGS. RAZA might be the most ill-conceived game ever. Why not just spray paint Cyclone purple, toss on some glitter while it's still wet and call it good?
Kind of figured that out with him erasing your picture from the game lol. Figured in some way that was one of the things you were upset about which could make sense in some way. As for your opinion of the game itself. Won’t lie, it’s hard for me to take that seriously as you did seem pretty content with the creation when you were a partner. From what I have seen in the game looks great in every way which is why I bought one.
Quoted from NoQuarters:I think you might be referencing this post on the page one of the thread ? His deal - but yeah that's quite a big bet.
Do you Really think I would share Any of my actual purchase decisions with you or this group lololol. Yes I bought 16 games and paid double list value for Extra Led lights. Lol. You guys really need to stop worrying about every one else. Truly mind blowing how many hours of your life you have invested in this witch hunt. Go do something productive or spend time with family. I assure you all we will let you know how this plays out.
Quoted from Roostking:We are doing the public a service, by educating and warning them.
Some are grateful.
Why lie about your pin purchases? You clearly stated you bought 2 xtras, did you lie then to sound cool, or are you lying now, to sound smart? At least we all agree it's a mess!
Did you ever think its none of your or the investigative teams business? lol Seriously guys get a life. We are not the ones you need to hate. Move on with your life or Please ignore ours.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:I think people just feel misled if someone says "I have so much confidence I paid for two games in full" vs. "I am not sure and put deposits down, via a payment method I have recourse on should things go south".
You don't owe anybody anything but if people seem like they feel they were misled, I understand.
Did me misleading them effect their life, finance, or well being in ANY way?? lol WE are not part of your investigation nor your kids. I don't owe you guys anything truth or otherwise regarding this topic. If you sent me money for RAZA let me know and I will refund your payment with interest. You guys just need to see the world burn at all cost so you can dance around for some very odd reason. Imagine how much you could have accomplished with all your wasted DR time. This crusade or Jpop man crush is so bazar to be honest.
Quoted from mrgone:Don’t worry man. I will never buy any of your mods so we are good. Be well.
Thats your choice. See how I didn't try to convince you it was wrong. Have a great life!
Quoted from BC_Gambit:I tried my best to keep things neutral and try to give some outside perspective, and this is your response? I don't know what my kids have to do with this either.
Appologies my statement as written is that we (the pre-order group) are not your kids. You guys all have fun with your hunt. Not sure why everyone is searching for a fight or debate. We collect toys this doesn't need to be so fired up or personal. Have a wonderful life guys.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:Thank you for clarifying. I admit that went over my head. Not everybody is searching for a fight. And I agree this should not be personal.
Agreed!
And one step further, even JPOP and RM and others for all their faults are pinheads as well. They were trying to make something cool for us, and the jury is still out but due to their own personal quirks they seem to have failed hard.
It’s all good man. To be honest I sincerely believe a good many involved in these debates back and forth do mean well and I do respect their position. While it may not be my direction I have no personal reason to call them wrong or debate their position. I personally have not entered a purchase agreement with Anyone in this thread so I see no rational reason to sway them either way. To the few that seemingly simply want to pick at any scab in hopes to get a reaction not sure I can help you. Pinball for me personally (as I suck at it) is a means to meet new and interesting people locally and from around the world. I can honestly say some of the best friends in my world came from the hobby of Pinball. To hate Any of you for not liking my decisions or yours would be foolish. (Unless your into PTC…). Live, love, laugh and enjoy. My collection of toys is open for Anyone that would like to visit always. Peace!
Quoted from Scandell:Am I the only one that has to read greatwichjohn’s posts twice and I still remain utterly confused? Total space cadet.
You seem nice man! But WHAT in blue blazes are you talking about?!
Ok have to agree with that one. Thought I was the only one that didn’t have a clue what he was talking about post after post. Lol
Quoted from metallik:Crue is a slight step down in terms of popularity, but most of the popular big acts have already been done. FWIW I'd rather see a pinball company do a good Crue game than completely F up a Pink Floyd game... I think it'd sell well enough.
Hell yeah, sign me up for Pink Floyd!
Quoted from DS_Nadine:So any idea what is going on right now that would make them take down multiple accounts from FB & LI , companies as well as personal accounts, and shut off their phone line?
Pretty simple in my view. The negatives far outweighed the positive. Example compare this thread (minus the pop in gloaters) vs the other thread. I can only imagine the messages they were receiving lol. As for contact i would only say don’t believe everything you read by “others”. I have called and emailed several times and always gotten a reply. (As long as you have a vested interest). I see it as a means to filter out the hate/attacks which is Kind of what was attempted with this thread. Not that easy as this thread Also proves. Lol
Quoted from Haymaker:Just out of curiosity, can you give some examples of games he finds to be bad? Particularly right off the bat? I always find that some people are excited about a new prospect or toy and let that cloud their judgment. Theres also too many guys who think every game is awesome. Not saying your buddy is like this, but I'm asking because my eyebrow is raised a bit.
Can’t believe I’m asking….. why does this matter at All?? Lol
Quoted from Roostking:I'll take troll over sucker at worst, naive and uneducated at best.
Thanks your awesome best to you.
Quoted from Roostking:RM, is that you?
BEST lol
Yep, you have a wonderful day.
Quoted from Roostking:You too, hopefully today brought you the BEST news you have heard in awhile!
Actually Was thanks! My son was promoted to Senior Chief in the Navy. Youngest guy to achieve that rank to date. Hell of a great day thanks so much for asking! Life is good.
Quoted from Roostking:That is a great accomplishment! Congrats to him and yourself, that's a hella great job.
Appreciated. Very proud of my son and all he has accomplished. Still out on a 7 month tour somewhere near Guam? Hard to see him away from his kids but he's helping keep our land free so I support his commitment. Plus I got to see a rail gun shoot a floating bouncy house so tax dollars well spent!! lol
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:How about a short what-if game for > anyone with a deposit or more with deeproot?
* What-if email was sent to Owners and a public notice posted that said ... deeproot has decided to reopen the window for issuing refunds. Beginning in one day and lasting for two days. Any Owner can request a refund of monies they’ve paid and refunds will be issued within one day of asking. deeproot will make an electronic deposit, issue money order, issue company check or whatever is easy.
* And nothing else is provided. No explanation if dr is still in business. no comment on the future of RAZA’s nor why did dr take down communications? You can only either choose to take action and request a refund or you can do nothing and nothing will have changed from where it sits.
** Question - if you have a deposit in, would you take this offer?
(disclaimer - this is only a hypothetical question, no such offer has been made)
Seems like a bated what if to cheer a convert or further slam a buyer. I’ll bite, I’m still in thanks.
Quoted from Roostking:Surely no employees means these are being built, right?
Surely a Forum says no employees so that must be, right?
Quoted from Roostking:Well, former employees that still know some furloughed employees as well. But true, this employee did say it on the internet
So "some employees" translates to "no employees" based on a "possible assumed employee" equals fact. Gotcha! Totally makes sense now.....
Quoted from Roostking:Do you have an insider saying different? Besides RM?
Didn't think so.
Anyway, I hope you get your game!
No I prefer to not follow assumption, rumor, or theory's. Hope I get my game also thanks.
Quoted from Roostking:What about facts? Facts are employees are furloughed, per dr employee.
Ok I'll bite. Show me where an employee first hand said that. Not second hand thanks.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Check your dms
And I replied accordingly.
Quoted from thechakapakuni:[quoted image]
We sooo need a Prince Pinball.
Quoted from Scandell:Hand waving. Hi.
Pretty sure you posted that you quit not furloughed and were fully paid. At least thats what you posted.
So it appears DR will likely not pull out of this tailspin so as planned I simply executed the emergency chute (out plan) and in only 3 days AMEX confirmed the “lack of product delivered” and Fully refunded every penny. I waited for the full remittance of payment before advising which is now complete. So #kklank (the second order a few were so bothered by?) we are fully refunded without loosing a moment of sleep on or any investigation. We liked to call it a bet but in all honesty the wager bet was hedged with AMEX so it was a win either way. Deposit is already transferred to CCrLE so still ends up a win to me. Anyone with a CC deposit or full payment just call your CC company. Took Maybe 3 minutes to do! Simple.
As a closing statement I will answer (for Me) the why did I buy question. (Granted it was still my decision so it doesn’t matter?)
1. It was a cool ass game! I personally liked the changes and opted to judge it on My Opinion not that of others. I did however find it odd that so many called it crap, etc even though many were first round buyers or even in on the original project? Odd. Nonetheless I thought it would be an interesting title to share with friends and visitors.
2. Much like TBL. (For me) I viewed this long shot as a very small possibility to make those that invested (and lost) in Zidware Some chance to get Something for their loss. At the start of DR they had Nothing with only a 100% loss. My wager (like the current TBL) was IF enough people supported this game they Could possibly catch a Hail Mary and possibly be made whole to some extent. I (as was #kklank) willing to bet on Them. Sadly the play (wager) didn’t pan out but I would do it again!
We (KK and I) hedged a bet on DR. Didn’t loose any money but sadly his side investors (and past) did so still not a happy ending unfortunately.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Buying a pinball machine isn’t supposed to be “a bet.”
I just don’t get this mentality. It promotes the continued creation of these unending pinball scams.
Glad you got your money back at least. I wonder if the investors charged their $58 million via Amex.
I said that jokingly as many were referring to it as a bet. I noted Why I bought a machine. I just buy what I like if it’s what I want. I bet on horses and in Vegas. As for the “other” fund management investors while sad not really something I or we had any control of.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Wonder if anybody who paid with a lowly Visa card was able to claw back their “lottery ticket.”
Yes. Another “buyer” friend used MasterCard same refund result. Apple Card I think?
Quoted from RobT:Well at least he didn't say it was permanent.
Really hope not. Their contribution to pinball is the gold standard and Jeff is a really great guy.
Quoted from Mr68:While I'm glad people are getting their money returned, I view the past year of the Deeproot emotional roller coaster as a big loss for you guys. Pinside skeptics were often shameful IMO but pre-order guys dished some of the ugliness right back. The emotional grind between anger and hope, leading to hunkered down silence the past several months had to have been draining.
Sorry about my misguided part but it all traces back to Deeproot to state the obvious. And Pinside gonna be Pinside.
So was the calculated wager on RAZA really worth it even getting your money back? For what Deeproot put you guys through, I think not.
Tough to answer. For Me, (not speaking for others!) I made my decision and it was as easy as that. The emotion roller coaster you speak of (that I see) was the 30,000 plus posts of almost obsession. So if anything I felt no sorrow or remorse as I will simply buy a different toy. As for the “ugliness” you speak of yes there were a few that went over the top and oddly felt the need to make it personal with buying individuals which really was unnecessary. I admit I didn’t need to respond to a few of those individuals defensively but it was just simply Unnecessary to make this so personal! I nor Any DR Raza buyer took anyone’s money and I won’t be the guy to inappropriately poke the BHZA, Raza, Etc buyers for making a mistake. It’s just pinball. Just going to move on to the next game and enjoy time with family and friends.
Quoted from Beechwood:Easy to say when you have 38 pins
Touché! Lol. Actually 39 Alien finally arrived! Such an addictive hobby.
Quoted from RobT:I do think you could use some humility in all of this though.
I *could* go back in this very thread and start cherry picking posts that you made about how confident you were about getting your game, and how others who were critical were doing nothing but creating "FUD", nothing more than speculation etc.
In hindsight, can you at least admit that your confidence in getting your RAZA was misplaced?
I absolutely was confident based on the facts I was given including an airline ticket paid for by DR to visit. Things change so what? If you need an “I told you so” to feel good you win the game. Again, my decision wasn’t to sell you anything Or convince you otherwise hence (my decision). I was and still am confident I was not going to loose anything in trying!
Quoted from Roostking:Well, don't lie and you won't open your self up to ridicule. Simple really.
He would LOVED to gotten his 2 games and have dr close, making them"rarer". He would not have cared if you or anyone else got screwed. That is a shitty attitude.
No clue what your personal issue is? Yes I bought two games but have said multiple times they were Not both for me. They were for Kklank and I though not sure Why that even matters. I also explained Why I wanted the game but you feel some odd need to spin it with some grand conspiracy of closing DR or rarity. It was a cool ass game, I bought one. Why is that such a huge confusion for you. Lol. The only shitty attitude I have is Why does everyone care so much what I buy or do with my money? Lol.
Quoted from Mr68:Yelobird is a good guy imo.
But I'm downvoting the remainder of his trash post. Especially him diverting the likely blame away from Deeproot with the TWIP canceling and placing it elsewhere. What's his motivation for that?
You lost me. What did I Ever say negative about TWIP? There is No better contributor to pinball.
Quoted from Roostking:Huh, seems like it would have been so much easier to say that like 1 month ago lol.
If it were true of course. Anyway, glad you got your money back on your bet, so other people's fees can go up. Great job buddy!
The second game was purchased for a Friend and he didn’t want to be part of your target practice so as a Friend I respected his privacy and withheld his name. But again, does it really matter? I get the frustration and venom for Zidware and DR. That’s always been your choice and I respected that choice as yours. How or why you feel I personally cheated you I don’t understand but I will say sorry if somehow you feel that way. I’m moving on personally. I enjoy pinball for the wonderful friends and and joy it brings my family and I. Drama + Pinball = no fun
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Yeah enough pinball scam refunds and I wonder if the credit card industry will sour on this whole pinball business.
It’s obviously high risk considering the staggering percentage of the business that is “like buying a lottery ticket!” Rather than just a consumer product.
Last I checked you can’t buy lottery tickets with a credit card.
Yeah, Amex at 10.9 Billion in annual revenue will certainly flag pinball as a scary business.
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Wheaton, IL