Its not like $600 is nothing - but I have dumped more and over restored machines and lost money on them when I sold them. This of course is different where we may not get a product at all for our deposit. But, I find it a little hard to believe that a company that started out trying to "do right" for Zidware customers would be doing all this for a couple hundred people mostly laying down deposits and a handful paying in full. For me, I see them making RAZA to the pre-order amounts and maybe nothing more (they may come back to it in the future) but like they said they will move on to other games.

This forum might not have the hate postings for DR. But, I get they failed to meet self-imposed deadlines and talked in a grandiose ways. But, I think they have been humbled and I am excited to see the game.

I just think Stern has produced some pretty uninspiring games lately and people drool all over themselves for 5 minutes and pre-order... then the games almost immediately end up back on marketplace at a loss. For Deep Root this may be a different path a little bumpy but I still think RAZA looks cool, I love the theme reminds me of BBB - I hope they change the market or add to it. I think a game like RAZA could end up being like a really desired BW game from the 90's - I just don't see the same for a Stern Led Zeppelin or a Stranger Things or a TNMT. I may be wrong but JP did more with GNR and it doesn't look cheap. I don't think RAZA looks cheap. I think of games like Fish Tales, Getaway, or Indiana Jones those games people look for - RAZA could be a small run game that once it is made others may miss out on.

Ok $600 is a risk - but pinball does not "make money" for me quite the opposite some games I make a little but overall I would guess I am even. Would I pay in full - no - does that mean I have to wait, yes, but I have less skin in the game. I just can't image everyone thinks someone would do all of this intentionally to steal a few hundred dollars from a few people. I know people can bring up the investment funds and other things. People can bring up that most people who started pinball companies have good intent too....they intend on shipping machines and just fail in the end. But, people will lose $600 on a Stern Led Zeppelin after the hype is gone too. I think LZ is just a cash grab for people who like Led Zeppelin - it certainly has hit the age demographic and people who have money. I said this is one of the machines that should be sold with weed for everyone to enjoy it because that is the only way to listen to Led Zeppelin.

Sorry if I offended any Led Zeppelin fans not my intent I just think this has limited appeal. I don't think all games have to be licensed to be popular - in the 90's some of the best games were unlicensed themes.

People will lose more money on a Led Zeppelin, TMNT, or Stranger Things than a deposit on a RAZA. Stern will make another machine and the hype will be gone. Only Spooky or JJ is holding a little over release prices once games are produced.

True and possible - just like Stranger Things it was built and has problems. Tons of hype and a screen that broadcast only in a dark room - who talks about that game now. The answer is nobody.

So like any game it could over hype and under deliver. Most of the modern machines have had issues of flaking and pooling or weak code.

All games have risks of not living up to their expectations.

Rick and morty has thousands of post on how to fix a game fresh from the factory. Is it still a good game - it appears to be (haven’t played it but it’s on my wishlist)? Would I buy one, it’s in my wishlist - would I pay over cost like many have, no.

So risks abound....

I hear GNR even has pooling and clear coat issues.

Ok DR has less of a track record (being fair - no track record) but established companies have issues too.

Either the games will be built and risks reduce or we will get a game like any other company and deal with what is produced.

So as a pre-order club it’s should be a forum of believers or the hopeful at least.

I hope I was... that is what I was trying to communicate.

Still a way to go...

Seems like RAZA is just a short run no matter what number comes in. Doesn’t look like both versions will equal 300 total by the order numbers people are talking about.

Maybe they keep going after a pause of these orders seeing what it takes to manufacture these. Looks like it will be over a couple hundred for sure.

Unless they contract manufacture this may be a big number to assemble for them.

Some people reported even numbers like 180.

So many appear odd numbers...

Not uncommon for Stern...Star Wars it was years for a wildly over priced R2D2

My point was there was no pattern and appeared as real order numbers. Not that it was divisible by three.

In many business invoices or any sequential document some numbers of the total are sequential with a check digit variable to not give the direct appearance of a sequential pattern so people can’t easily decipher the pattern.

I am saying it does not seem unreasonable to have close to a couple hundred RAZA orders already.

Haha...

Some people are more believing than I (paying in full - seems risky to me) but a deposit for an arcade edition ($600-700) is not something I want to lose but I won’t die if for some reason the machine is never built.

That is why I could and would not pull the trigger on the XTRA. 20% is over $2k on the XTRA and that is also a bridge too far.

I don’t think the XTRA will sell out it’s 300, maybe both editions together will be close to 300 is my guess.

We all have different risks and money levels we are comfortable with. I hope DR lives up to the orders they are getting - my guess it will be close to 300 machines by the time their order taking stops.

I am a believer the contract didn’t overly concern me, if I wanted to freak out I would read my iPhone user agreement and then I can build a cabin in Montana and live off the grid renouncing technology.

If I disrespected LZ not really my intent - if I offended anyone I apologize I was commenting on the market price of Stern machines not retaining value. Pinball is not like buying gold or stocks it’s a hobby some machines maintain value some do not. Seems like most titles lately from Stern have a strong initial burst of interest and then come back into reality and sell on the used market for a few hundred less in just a few months. I expect RAZA will lose a few hundred like my example and that is all I am saying, so if I lose a few hundred isn’t that most pinballs these days.

I can’t think of a new machine that has increased in value enough to consider pinball an investment. It’s a toy no matter the theme, I like RAZA as a theme, I don’t need licensed themes to like a game. I think TNMT or LZ might be cool for some people it’s just not for me.

I expect that I will lose money on RAZA, like I did on BM66 it wasn’t much and I enjoyed the game while I owned it.

If I wanted to make money in pinball I would buy older Bally Williams games from the 90’s and restore them somewhat, play them, enjoy them and sell them at a later date and I may make a little or break even.

I agree fans of LZ or TNMT have fans who will buy it but there are plenty of the games out there so after the initial pop up in price it will do what all pinball machines do, drop back into reality as the next latest and greatest pinball comes out.

Agreed - there is reason to be cautious and skeptical.

Ok - wow - you like Led Zepplini I guess.

I don’t buy games based upon what other people think their value may be 1-3-5-10-15 years from now. I buy what I think looks fun...sometimes they are keepers sometimes they are not.

If I worried what a pinball will be worth later I should put my money elsewhere because there are way better investments.

That’s what’s great about pinball we can buy what we want for any reason, I like EM’s for the art but I have none in my collection.

LZ is likely a dream theme for many. But. It’s not Amazon stock or Tesla or Apple.

Interesting update - makes sense to round up and would theoretically only be a few games left over so charging the premium price all makes sense. They could have not stated that and just priced accordingly after the run was done but I suppose people would spew hate for doing that and not disclosing it.

I like they commented and provide some feedback to common questions they must be hearing.

Not trying to be negative (I have a deposit in) but it takes Spooky over a year to produce 750 games, I hope DR will be modest and expect issues and keep us informed. The issues with any of this is to keep talking to us, update us, and be honest. I hope they can wrap a production up in 4 months but that seems to be a lofty goal. Supply delays etc. can all be anticipated.

immediately - they take a CC

Totally agree - if they are built and delivered - its a great deal. I don't care if it is licensed themes from Stern or not - the games don't seem that great.

You all sound like games are coming soon - I guess I was a realist thinking if I got my game before the summer I would be surprised and honestly being in the later batches I thought would be a good thing so they can work stuff out in production. Just the arcade edition - deposit only.

I just think they are wildly unrealistic in their production goals.

I think - just a guess - production does not really even start until February and then its still is months for machines. Just being realistic...seems like a couple hundred machines can be built by June.

Lets hope that when they start building them and your serial # comes up to be built they email you. It would be like the pizza tracker at Dominos Pizza....your machine is being built etc.

Its not the worst - but their carry out special is decent for $5.99 you get a couple items can't really be beat. Its not like a meal at Subway costs $5 anymore. Heck I feel robbed after I get a sub at Subway there are so many places you can get better for food for less.

Sorry to be off topic - its not the best pizza but the pizza tracker could be the build tracker Deeproot trademark - like the PINBAR trademark - or the PINBOX or whatever the wood box is called.

I am quoting my own post because it was mentioned in Kaneda's Podcast - I wish him well and a speedy recovery from COVID19 - but maybe it is foolish to think June is OK, its just a deposit to me on something that looks cool. I am taking a risk - sure - on an unproven company but I have owned a few Sterns and nothing they have been pushing out lately looks cool to me. Led Zeppelin - no thanks, AIQ comic book style - no thanks. I guess I have felt left behind by what Stern is producing, I have played JJP stuff but never got into it (have not seen a Pirates or GNR yet), Spooky stuff has been getting better (liked Alice Cooper - I heard it required lots of tweaks or little fixes to issues to get them to just play) and I am sure I would have liked a Rick and Morty but selling out in a day site unseen didn't leave much of an opportunity to decide.

I am not reconsidering whether placing a deposit was foolish - it was just a bet on something I would like to have, a risk I was willing to take with my money.
But, just like Deeproot the idea of American Pinball maybe changing course (new designer) and making something not STERN'ish appeals to me. Maybe that is just the appeal of RAZA, or GNR, or RM - it is not Stern where things look cheap and uninspiring. Sure Stern has a license for something popular but is the license meaningful when it is AIQ comic book style versus the movie, think what Deadpool could have been like if it was movie based not comic book (still a great game - one of the better recent Sterns).

I know Kaneda can have his haters and his followers but he is not wrong really - he just said people saw risks and still went forward. He also said stop bashing Deeproot and move on haters they (meaning us in this forum) did it willingly and no point in bitching about it. Again, I wish Kaneda well, get better, take care you got a baby Kaneda on the way - thanks for quoting my June ETA post but I don't know if you got what I was saying. Its $600, yeah it is not nothing, its like kickstarter its cool to me and I want it, I will take the risk. Hell, as I write this post the marketplace ads above the box are for $349 Pinstadiums - if we cared about every damn penny we spent would anyone in their right mind pay that much for LED lights. Or $1000 toppers - HUGE ripoffs - and I am supposed to worry about RAZA now. Come on, there is plenty of foolish ways to spend money in pinball...the difference for me is if it does not happen (which I highly doubt) I will lick my wounds and move on. One more thing to relate, people bash Deeproot because their next game or whatever but yet Pinball Brothers are not talking about anything beyond Alien and they get a pass, I am not looking at Deeproot's next game just focused on RAZA and I am OK with that.

OK - you think it is a good thing Robert answers inquiries directly not someone on staff? Remember I have a deposit in - not throwing barbs - just says that is a pretty small staff. I see the good in it...I see the potential bad. I think for where they are at as a company it is boutique like Spooky so it is OK.

Not good when you get dead links ...

The FAQ on shipping games and other topics is gone now too.

Not going to downplay this ... or rationalize this ... not what I like to see.

Doesn’t give me a warm fuzzy feeling. A good company would recognize these issues and address it.

A person could email them but it would be some justification...I hope I am wrong and they have new content. But, most companies get content on and don’t deadlink stuff.

Hey I am just being realistic and I agree not a sinister sign but what would have been wrong with leaving content up?

They could have created new links to pinball news article on RAZA - that would have been easy.

Just saying you make content you don’t deadlink stuff.

You guys are very optimistic. Wow not even a little bit concerned. Good for you...

When the game ships or we start see some builds I guess fears can fade.

Ok I will amend my posts - I see they made the content only available if you use your account.

Why don’t they just make the content link to a log-in screen?

Just bad optics that lead the other forum posts to think the worst.

I am just not as convinced as you guys are that this will all work out without issue. I am realistic, I have been saying that I am OK with delays and honestly expect it.

Strange marketing though....

I can see why Pinside is toxic...but he ain’t wrong with pointing out strange way some things are handled.

Good summary on the other Deeproot pinball forum by ds_nadine, not bashing DR by any means but a good summary of why the games are sold the way they are...

I agree on his thoughts, I do believe all of us who ordered will experience a delay on receiving our games. I always doubted March delivery dates but they will come eventually and in the end a rare game should be sought after.

I didn’t say it would be valuable - just sought after. Maybe valuable, maybe sought after...

People pursue Big Bang Bar because it is rare. I personally like it and the theme...other think the gameplay is only so so.

I like RAZA as a theme and art, game play looks good...

But, hey I own a Fish Tales and I love the game hate the theme.

Not everything is logical, fun is just fun.

Now that I think of it - all the people who are trashing the food truck idea can look at Fish Tales and say as a concept think of selling that idea to Williams back in the day. Sure people love fishing but it is not the biggest appeal or market, kind of like Big Buck Hunter for Stern that is based upon the game not actual hunting.

Wait and see - if it is fun it’s fun plain and simple.

Who knows as a concept Food Truck on the surface doesn’t appeal to me but I would say the same of Hot Wheels from American Pinball but man that light show looks cool.

Heck - I love Getaway (has to have Pinsound) honestly for the lighted beacon during game play. It’s so satisfying- not the deepest game but just plain fun. Pinsound takes it to another level I am sure without Pinsound I would have sold it already.

People like what they like - they just keep throwing Food Truck under the bus and by title I am dismissive too but who knows it could have one thing that makes it unique or cool.

Good to hear - I am trying to be realistic on when I will receive it...

The other forum is debating DR business model...as usual.

I thought this forum post was interesting -

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-avengers-iq-up-for-sale-

It pretty much sums up what I have said in this forum, that new in box Stern's are pretty uninspiring and do not hold value. To add my two cents and relate it to RAZA, I did not buy it to flip it for a profit, I just hope to not lose a ton of money. I like RAZA as a theme, for me, Marvel movies or themes in comic book forum do not have a strong appeal. Maybe a Deadpool based upon the movie would be different.

People slam unlicensed themes, yet look AIQ, TNMT, and Stranger Things before that - all licensed themes, are not inspiring a huge desire to be "bolted to the floor" posts from Pinside. Blame it on COVID or whatever but I don't think even Led Zeppelin will be a bolt to the floor machine, Cary Hardy had a video that said that machine was basically a juke box with flippers. It could just be Stern though too - JJP GNR and Spooky RM seem to have a strong following still long after release (personally I would like a RM).

Just thought it was worth sharing. Not trying to insult anyone who loves those machines - they may be great - I just think a good unlicensed theme can beat any licensed theme especially if games are already built waiting for the art and them to be slapped on it.

You guys are not skeptical production is not even happening yet (most likely) I don't think anyone has got a call yet.

Again, I ordered but I am just thinking their time line is not realistic. Not trying to be nay sayer just trying to be realistic, I don't expect a call any time soon. Deeproot prove me wrong.

Seems more realistic to me -

The other forum on DR would poo poo everything likely even when the machines ships. It’s not a huge number of machines and as a new company trying to push out a machine during COVID I can see not having all parts. They don’t give DR any credit they are not Stern, JJP, or even Spooky so some delays should be expected. CCP has delays, people wait for GNR or Spooky RM but because RAZA is delayed DR is a crap company and outside business experts know how Deeproot is now doomed.

I like the update communication and can accept the delays as long as they keep talking.

I hope Deeproot can build these machines on their adjusted time table and for their best interest move on to their next title. They would not need a huge staff to produce this number of machines or a huge stockpile of parts so I can see these likely shipped by summer hopefully.

Man on the Deeproot other forum it seems like someone out of the blue thinks there is not enough shit in this world and it is time to stir it up and talk shit.

Ok I get their are risks in a RAZA but there was no update or no news rather someone must have been sitting at home saying what can I do that will make them look bad and me look good.

Well, makes you feel like a game is coming sooner or later...

In the other forum - Ben Heck - said there is a chance of never receiving the game. Although I do feel that is unlikely, at times I do admit there is a risk. That is why I put the smallest deposit on the cheapest game so if it worked out great, if it didn't I would not be out a ton.

Fingers crossed this all works out. I hope RM has an update for us in a few weeks like he said he would. I never believed February or March and I have doubts even in April. I think early summer would be or could be likely. I just don't see how small runs of games is profitable or offers any long term viability. Spooky would be an example to follow on how to become a pinball company but I think RAZA will be a better offering for a first game then AMH was for Spooky. At times I get mixed feelings this will work out...probably just view this as a bet and either it works out or it doesn't.

I know people knock Food Truck but what if it is something unique. I just am a bit baffled by the decisions and marketing they make. I know its best to just shut up and say nothing until things are ready. Its why CGC is saying nothing now...

Also I want to comment over there saying so much of their stuff is BS. I don't think Deeproot owes Cointaker money. They hired JPOP they did not assume 100% of his liabilities - no one does that in a bankruptcy. They don't know....and honestly if some people want money from DR for Zidware crap it is really just too long ago to make any claim against DR. Garnish JPOP wages if you can (which you can't most likely because he was likely smart enough to seperate himself from his Zidware company).

So much of what they say over there is crap and just BS, they have no idea and just want to stir the shit. These guys are the kind of guys who hate LED's and think everyone is wrong to install them and make it known everywhere and the same people who price police. Or bitch because pinball prices are going up.

But, I don't want to be a fool either so I read the stuff just to keep perspective. I am sure Ben Heck has a right to be upset but it seems petty now. Its kind of like how I feel about RAZA, I hope it works out, but if doesn't I was dumb and the only person I can blame is myself and I kind of always dealt with stuff like that by just moving on. Life is too short to hold a grudge granted I would guess Ben lost money and considerable time dealing with JPOP.

I know - sorry - just reflecting. I have a deposit in on RAZA - that other forum is filled with crap, my bad.

Well personally I would rather hear an update from Deeproot - then rules from a game that no one has.

Man, you are a super optimistic person. Good for you, I go back and forth fearing we may never see anything.

The other forum is filled with bad comments from people who wish for bad things to happen for God knows why. I try to stay positive thinking I like what I see in RAZA. I hope to keep this forum positive but hope someone can fill me in with new info on RAZA.

WRB1977 - nice try confronting the crap fest in the other forum. I can’t believe how everyone thinks they have all the info on DR and how they will fail or how much cash they have etc. Many businesses lose money for years before making a profit, does that mean DR will make it, who knows.

Most people admit DR would likely build RAZA but that forum rambles on.

We should be getting an update soon...

Again WRB1977 good to comment I always think I want to comment but what would the point be, they all want to just talk crap.

I wouldn’t say I am optimistic on the next update, I would say there would be little news and no specific date again. But, I still believe at some point the games will ship I just think my original estimate is more likely and I said that is likely June.

It takes five years to hatch

https://tenor.com/view/alien-stomach-burst-movies-film-gif-5982126

pasted_image (resized).png

I think people need to keep perspective here, a huge resolution update is unlikely. I think Yelobird’s post should help people keep in mind that delays are not uncommon.

Keep the faith...

So the update is out - not surprising - my original estimation of June is not looking too far off track (probably will be later than that).

Personally, I don't think they need to offer discounts if they do not meet that deadline but I welcome it of course. I think they should just offer people a chance to get out of their pre-order if they want to get their money back so there is no ill will. It would also be smart of them to only build one model if the delays and parts are becoming too much of an issue - simplify the process and build only one model (of course for the most part it is just the cabinet that is different). I didn't want to stick my neck out beyond the arcade edition (since it was a gamble) but if they offer a deal on the full RAZA to make one machine it would be hard to pass up on.

As many of us have said it was a roll of the dice. I think this will get built eventually it will be boutique for sure. Do I have concerns - sure - but so far it is just a deposit and I think if it never happens it was just a smaller bet on something I wanted. I am still rooting for you Deeproot....

A person would have to wait until after the May update to ask for the refund, so about six more weeks then a refund is possible. That may be only talk too but who knows.

I think RAZA was a gamble and if it gets built it should be a good machine and hold value if not maybe be sought after. To me it’s just a deposit I was willing to risk regardless of what the other forum says. Would I have put full money down - no way.

So I am still holding on my bet we will see what May will hold.

I mean...shit...some guy is selling the ECTO Ghostbusters topper for $2500 and it will likely sell. How is that not fucking stupid. We can all take risks and be stupid with money. Because if we were smart would we be buying thousands of dollars of toys basically...

I have to say for a brief moment I was kind of uplifted that RM had kicked back a little life into the RAZA world (missed the exact post but heard about it) and the other message about the voice / sound work (David Thiel - Kaneda FB post) I think was positive to me, even though it addressed other games being released. It sounded like some life was back into the Deeproot world but the Haggis announcement makes you think why can't they wrap this up soon.

Like many I think the game will get built eventually but with the world's supply chain a mess it will take time. But, it is just like any other machine while you wait other announcements happen and makes you think what is the best purchase. OK - people can now rip on this thread (from the other thread) and my post saying RAZA is crap etc. but don't forget people are still waiting for Rick and Morty (almost done as of this post April May 2021), people are waiting on Alien, Big Lebowski, GnR. People will be waiting for Fathom 2.0 for a long time too. I get Deeproot is taking a long time and God knows what their finances may be but its not uncommon to wait for games (yes - I know all the history of the companies I listed).

Just saying Fathom 2.0 is taking non-refundable deposits too and will have long waits and a very aggressive build schedule. Let's see if they get ripped like DR even though DR has to date has offered to take up some of Zidware's customers issues (not all their liabilities - I don't think they should be responsible for that) and took minimal money from people. Yeah Yeah JPOP is a scumbag, I get it.

Just a little back and forth for me...

Granted RM said some arrogant stuff and was a blowhard. I don't understand at the same time he is not given at least a little consideration for offering to make some Zidware customers whole. He is not the first or the last to buy some companies bankrupt assets and use them in a new business, he has no obligation to make some debtors whole. Should he have hired JPOP versus just buying the assets who knows (my opinion - no). But, if he wasn't a bit arrogant others should be rooting for his success, he will end up doing more to make some whole - again not all - but he had zero obligation to.

Good for Haggis - but goodwill is goodwill a non-tangible value added to something that does not physically exist. If (or when - depending on your belief in DR) people get RAZA it won't just be goodwill but a game delivered. RM deserves some credit for that and I hope in the end he will. If he becomes more modest/humble now in the interim - great.

I am all in support of Haggis and excited to see Fathom or even Celts - more pinball competition is good no matter in what forum it is in or what company it comes from. If they have the secret sauce on dimple free playfields - again great - seems like playfields could be plexi over art rather than clearcoats on wood but no one would want that (been done before on multiple games).

I admitted DR made errors that was my point, others are getting it done, I wish DR would as well. But, delays will happen on new company's if RM didn't come out of the gate the way he did maybe he would have been given more consideration. Time will tell. I guess modesty buys you grace.

The other thread is crazy, so much hate for people who have no interest in DR.

I hope pigs fly this time - June was my guess in the beginning

Optimism is nice to hear

But Deeproot is shit according to the other forum...nothing relates to them

RM has been communicating in his stated time frames, he didn’t say the 15th exactly.

You will get an update some time and you can decide then - I agree why freak out now.

I think people would agree the delays are troublesome and Deeproot over promised here. But most people would say games should come eventually or you would be refunded.

Come on man - you were always the big cheerleader....its OK some notice will come

Good for you - A Roadrunner super cool. Have fun....

I am fine with delays I kind of thought it would be summer before there would be any real news.

Hard not to be a realist and agree with the other forum as far as the update. I would say the update was as expected....

But, I kind of agree it seems like they would prefer to not even build RAZA. If they wanted to not build it though they could just refund everyone (if they have the money) say sorry / goodbye. Rather than play this cat and mouse game, unless there is some dream of patents from a game or recovering what was spent but that seems impossible.

Seems like such a strange way of doing things. I cannot imagine what they do day to day - wait for UPS to drop packages off? I mean really if they were serious they would have found a way to get this out the door and they would be moving on to the next thing just to salvage a reputation (I know haters - hate that comment, you can hate DR).

No one faults delays for unforeseen things but this is hardly unforeseen now.

A person should think hard if they want to ride this ride until the end or get off while you can.

I think this is what it must be like to be looking at the BBB remakes or even a Big Lebowski hoping it finally gets done. Don't rip on my examples and saying it is not the same - just saying those took years both were risks, one completed (BBB) one group still waiting.

I doubt people were offered to get off those rides....

Contacting the small potential buyers group personally would not be hard, seems like they don't want to. An email wrote to everyone is not personal contact either.

Well if someone had confidence in them and knew the next machine would be built and what it will be then that might make sense. BBB was special and a known quantity but still a huge risk, with some amazingly patient people.

But, RAZA interested me for the art, theme, etc. Game play looked good. I didn't really care if it had a Pinbar or not, to me, I just wanted something not Stern with a theme I liked - ship me a RAZA without a Pinbar I don't care (you could make game selections with flippers like other games do), your phone could be used for the other features with a QR code. I was just tired of Stern stuff and Mando continues to prove why I am done with Stern for a while. BTW - I said the same thing about LZ from Stern too, they are pumping out some junk in my opinion (yes - haters - I get at least they are putting something out).

Who knows maybe American Pinball will build somethings really compelling. Hot Wheels looks kind of neat just not the theme I hoped for.

I thought they were going to have some announcement soon....who knows that could drive refunds too.

Deeproot is just hard to understand why they do what they do. Refund everyone - have faith in your product like you said and sell it when it is ready. No one should be made to feel they are at risk if you are a legit business.

Yeah - you are likely right.

Zidware people should likely be the only ones to ride this out because they have nothing to lose that is not already lost.

Good for you -

The other forum says you are crazy. I realize your deposit is likely not a huge amount of money but no one wants to throw money away.

I think I want to reflect on this a bit. My guess is a solid # of a very small run is likely going to bail and if this is only for Zidware people what are they out? Nothing because they were going to get nothing anyway....or likely nothing at least....

Just seems foolish now....

As I read the email again RM says you can request the refund and they will start June 1st. I guess I read that as you can request the refund at any time, they will start processing requests on June 1st.

Not that you have to wait until the 1st to request.

I am reflecting on it now, someone convince me otherwise, but I think I will likely bail. This is the curse of pinball as people wait for pre-orders or the latest or greatest other stuff comes out you may want. I think it might be wise to just try and get that refund because for some reason I feel like that is what Deeproot wants and who knows the refund offer may not be fulfilled either way but not trying guarantees uncertainty and hanging on for an unknown schedule.

Before I said I was going to ride this out - now - hmmmm...

Doubt it.

Lots of opinions out there on this - at least it’s exciting.

Appreciate the optimism and the critical thought on the topic, in the end it’s a personal decision.

If I was paid in full or a Zidware customer wishing to finally wrap this chapter up there is a lot more to be upset about, but just a $500 deposit is gambling. That could be a single bet in Vegas...

Wow - you are a gambler. I have a deposit in and I am hardly that confident. I see this as 50-50 at best...I just don't have a lot on the line so I am deciding what to do.

Lets hope for no turds -

I don’t really care about the pinbar...

Wouldn’t change anything to me, if that would get it out faster...leave it off. They would need to get a service menu back in some way. Maybe like Capcom?

I thought hard about the refund and then it just came down to the fact it’s just a deposit on a game I think looks cool. I have called it a gamble and sure it is but I won’t die if it never materializes. It’s not about profit or any of those things, I legit hope to get the game.

If they pull the pinbar and find a way to use flippers for the selection of the features and use the main display for the service menu why would we care on the game. I think the pinbar is just an interface the screen can duplicate that stuff.

If I had fear on paying the balance I would fly down and make sure it is actually complete and ready to ship.

I think after this drama people will need more than an email to pay the balance.

It was 10% down - so more like $600-1100 depending on options and model. Lower end could have been as low as about $570 I believe....

So....how many people requested a refund of their deposit? Did you receive a response to your email or inquiry from Deeproot?

Tell us what is up?

I was just asking to see if a bunch asked - clearly most people did not ask for refunds. I only have a small deposit down on the arcade edition so I am staying in.

I think at some point the drama will be over, pinballs will be built or refunds will happen. No doubt they lose money on the first machine made.

I guess we will see what the July update looks like soon enough.

I have to imagine they build a few extra and charge a big price because that is what it actually cost. Will someone buy them, these days with the crazy money pinballs are getting - yes - someone will buy them. The other forum will lite on fire when they charge $12K for the handful available too.

RM addressed this in the beginning, pre-order people took the risk and extra units would pay the higher cost for the machine. I think the pre-order people paid a guesstimate of a price and the later price for extra units (if any) will be paying a market price for the very few extra units made.

Just one comment on PPP loans - OMG - everyone needs to ignore that stuff basically any business could get the money and some will end up becoming free money and some will be low interest loans.

Some business needs were legit needs and many were questionable but the requirement for repayment was the retention of employees.

It’s is such a stupid comment, millions of businesses applied for PPP and many still failed. I am sure we can all look at ourselves and say people who got Covid relief funds personally from the government should return that money too.

It’s has no relation to DR, the airlines took billions and now are raking in a rebound in traffic but the funds helped them pay staff when no one travelled. No one can say what would have happened to the larger economy if PPP was not available. Many businesses could likely have done without and still been ok and others could not.

Avoiding politics as much as I can, the govt poured money everywhere don’t criticize DR for applying like everyone else did.

Millions of American families got COVID money too, it was not need qualified it was just sent out. Does the govt now own those families too like people claim the taxpayers own parts of DR?

It just does not relate, PPP funds, we’re just one of the extraordinary measures the govt took during Covid, Why shouldn’t businesses apply for it? Easy to look back and say they did not need it or they never produced anything from the outside. Or does everyone prefer the govt to just have even the few DR employees get their unemployment straight from them instead of PPP funds? The idea was to use PPP to keep businesses and employees…

I think people would be shocked at all the businesses that applied and received PPP.

Sure we can be concerned and uncertain, but I have concerns about Tesla or Amazon too one is successful and DR is not.

I have stated this before I like the theme of RAZA, but I have a small deposit down on a game that is all.

Hell, if I really thought I had to only buy things that met my ideal business standards I would be living in a cave. You could not have a cell phone or any modern convenience because some part of everything is made in China and I doubt made 100% responsibly. Seriously, it could be the ink on the packaging or the box or paper or the computer chips.

I guess morality has its limitations versus daily life and the conveniences we are all accustomed to.

Does that make RM any less of egomaniac for what he said - No. But, do people think Steve Jobs or Bill Gates have nice guy reputations. Does that make RM a good manager or give him an excuse for not delivering a machine - also No.

It’s just a deposit, I am not marrying the guy or following him and Jim Jones down to Central America.

The July update will announce more delays I am sure. So what…

Yeah - it might not be BBB, always wanted one of those…

I don’t disagree, I am just saying PPP may end up as a loan. Many so so businesses took the money, they had no business to speak of prior to COVID and post Covid they have no business. The money will likely make them hold in for a while longer, or it could help them actually produce a few games.

DR just keeps hanging on if it was not PPP they would have kept hanging on by some other way.

That is what this forum has been saying for a million posts. No one can believe they keep hanging on without producing anything.

I think holding out now is all anyone can do, like all of you I feel less excited and just hold out now because I don’t have much on the line. Hard not to feel stupid still holding on when everyone from the other forum is constantly warning us. Should I care no, but now I think it is more about just seeing if it gets built.

I wanted a Rick and Morty (still do) but a Halloween or Ultraman were not high on my list, Ultraman would be preferred for me. I can’t see holding out for months for these games even if getting them built is certain…still waiting…for any title lowers excitement.

I am not so confident in the next update, I am sure delays and excuses will be all we will hear. But again, it’s just a small deposit.

Maybe just maybe - DR - throws out the pinbar and builds the pinball without it, just to get it done.

It’s not like choices could not be done with flippers or an app on a phone.

Just a guess on the pinbar, I think the fact that the small number of total orders likely split be between the two editions makes for a very crazy production. The two editions have different play fields, different cabinets, etc. and in any real business management would try to simplify production as much as possible. I get the pinbar is key to Deeproot but with 120-150 games wouldn’t you push to one cabinet, one playfield…dump the Pinbar to save costs on a losing investment in RAZA.

But, I think it’s pretty clear this company may either never finish a production game or just RAZA and then could be done. It’s ok to stumble in the beginning but I think all of us, even people who bought in, have doubts where this goes.

I would have outsourced this production a long time ago and put this behind them if they were smart.

I still hope it works out but I guess we will see what the next update brings.

Who said we are not bothered by it - I would say quite the contrary, but what can you do. It is a gamble on a small deposit now and that is what it has been for a while. Very concerned...but what can you do?

Hard not to believe Ben Heck this thing died a while ago no one called the coroner to confirm the time of death or notify the next of kin.

Well that’s his opinion - nothing wrong with expressing concern

Oh trust me - I would be worried to just pay up without seeing something.

Hard not to think with this missed deadline that this is not good. I heard the idea By Kenada that it’s a sample to bring people in for the investment, and the lack of a response kind of underwhelmed.

Who knows…

The other DR forum is lit up - have to agree not a good sign

I don't think there was anyone left .... just JPOP

People fade when checks stop flowing. I know lots of hate for RAZA / DR bummer though at least some machines were not made.

Just guessing since there were Zidware settlements that maybe 80-90 of the "supposed" 120 +/- orders were actual deposits with a blend of Arcade and XTRA editions that at the most he had was maybe $100K in deposits.

Its not like this was a big scam to get rich, even if he hoped for more, this was just a guy who loved pinball and tried to make a run for it as a manufacturer (maybe to sell the company later, sell it as part of a fund, god knows). He may have been well intentioned but ego, bravado, micro-management made production unlikely if not impossible. I am sure the funds to operate dried up (from wherever that money came from) and he may have some dream of still making these games but I think the reality is maybe some deposits (just DR deposits - not Zidware) might come back because it is not much money and would cost more to fight then to pay out, if he cares to save somewhat of a reputation or his professional name. Zidware people are the ones out the most unless they took the cash right away when offered.

Just not much money on the line for a deposit for an Arcade - not even $700. If it is gone it is gone....not happy about it but not going to lose sleep over it. I will take all the I told you so's in order, I guess I deserve it.

Seriously - over $100K in deposits - maybe...

Call me a fool but I will not spend hundreds to get my $600 back - It was a bet, I lost, move on. Shit I have dumped more then that into a restore of a pinball and never recovered it.

I genuinely thought the theme was interesting, I liked the art, etc. I did not look at this as some FOMO limited edition non-playing Magic Girl to make $$$ on.

Zidware were full machine deposits, this was 10% down. Just would not be worth the effort for most. I think you remove Zidware claimants you got a handful of paying deposits a mix of the cheaper Arcade and XTRA units just not huge losses here.

I am sure everyone is not happy about this but I knew there was a risk and I accepted that when I put a non-refundable deposit down.

Zidware was a bet on the RAZA - easy to understand they considered the money lost already. Hindsight is great.

Yes - but this time I think when you close down all your contact pages Facebook, Linked in, and even push company contact to email that ain't good.

Prove us wrong - you can't - bad communication abounds....

It’s not a ton of money from everyone I think to save his own ass he may just pay it out. He is young enough to care about his professional life and his own reputation in other areas not pinball.

This is civil not criminal in any stretch no one goes to prison.

I was speculating that things are bad and the latest changes mean it is over and no one should consider a machine actually being produced any time soon.

Is there a chance something happens, maybe, I thought Dutch Pinball was done for but it is still eking out machines. You never know, they might dump JPOP focus on just building a few games to live up to their commitment.

Like Dutch pinball sometimes people who run it can’t live with themselves but are just in so deep they can’t get out. Maybe this will happen for DR.

The problem is bravado and ego does not buy people grace and consideration.

Sounds dumb but I think deposits come back or games may still end up getting built but I don’t think it is any time soon for either. Complete guess on my part…

I think they should close down the website, take down the option for people to see people's info.

They have scrubbed their presence from elsewhere if they want to keep in touch with buyers for whatever reason create a private Facebook users group which has been mentioned before.

I like the original Houdini art more too bad JPOP can’t stick to art and not be the poison he is to anything really being accomplished.

I agree he picks interesting art