(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

10 months ago

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  • 3,272 posts
  • 248 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 days ago by ronaldvg
  • Topic is favorited by 89 Pinsiders


Topic poll

“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
  • Xtra 25 votes

(52 votes)

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Post #2440 Link to SEC filings story. Posted by BMore-Pinball (58 days ago)

Post #2468 Story of SEC indictment Posted by DakotaMike (58 days ago)

Post #2527 DR never owned the Zidware entity per report. Posted by wcbrandes (58 days ago)

Post #2676 Summary of DR outlandish things. Posted by TheFamilyArcade (57 days ago)

Post #2864 Charging back a RAZA preorder Posted by Mr68 (50 days ago)

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#248 9 months ago

I got the opportunity to watch some game play of RAZA recently. The code and gameplay looks surprisingly very good.
If this game was being sold by Stern, I think it would sell in large numbers. The only things holding it back is the combination of a new start up company and the Jpop aura hanging around. If the game plays as good as it looks and plays reliably, those 2 things will quickly disappear.
For this reason, I’m in on RAZA and am willing to take a chance because of the CODE.

With this same logic, I’m assuming Deep Root knows that they have one chance to get this right or their reputation and their company will be toast. With the attention they seemed to have put into this game, this looks like a winner. I dig it.

Full disclosure, I’m also in on a LZ but it’s purely because it’s Zeppelin. Playfield looks sparse. But the playfield looked sparse in SW and still turned out to be a lot of fun. If it turns out to be shit code like Munsters, everybody will be dumping their LZs no matter how great Zeppelin is. (And I’m huge fan of Zeppelin.) IMHO.

#249 9 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Has anyone seen any clips on the video mods they show?

no. What video mods are you talking about?

#251 9 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Sorry meant video Modes. In the rather awesome in depth coverage on game and code This Week in Pinball one of the later sections shows some video modes like "Attach of the Saucers" which looks similar to the one in AFM or missile command.
Pretty much Everything you would want to know about Raza gameplay:

I watched this video and it talked briefly about a mode or two,
“Raza ruleset playtime with Bowden and Johnson”.
Man o man, the photos of the artwork on the playfield are just off the hook in that TWIP article. I’m excited!

#442 9 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Lol, crazy preorder bastards maybe. Fairly certain Most did not buy this with any intension to find that elusive POTC investment opportunity simply a really amazing looking game that looks Fun. Sadly this title and company had some Big size baggage to overcome and I personally Fully respect those that apposed this startup but in the end, I personally think this Is a great game and Innovation spark that Will move this hobby we love Forward to new and positive direction. Will it be a value decision or even a successful bet? Time will tell. Past words and statements aside, Now is when the history of This company is decided!

Agreed! What an exciting time for Deep Root!
I’d love to hear an interview where the main topic is about assembling games on a mass scale within a startup company. I’d have so many questions to ask.
I have my fingers crossed that Deep Root succeeds!
It’s such a great time to be in this hobby.

#478 9 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

No update as of yet though it is only 1 day in. My expectation was February personally. Any updates I get will certainly be shared as well as an open invite to anyone near this area when they arrive to try it out. Already have some mod ideas on in layout for this interesting concept.

Did someone say mods?!!! That’s the icing on the cake. I call dibs! Your mods are always high quality and fit a theme very well. I’m excited.

#525 9 months ago

Tried the other RAZA thread. Wow. That was a real drag. The speculation of how Deep Root is going to fail was horrible.
F-that. Let’s stay positive! This machine is going to be fantastic! I wish all the people at Deep Root nothing but success and an amazing 2021!!!
Can’t wait to get that RAZA!

#530 9 months ago

So I’m really interested to see how I’m going to like this lowdown bar with the touch screen built into it.
More importantly, the redemption of tickets during gameplay. Part of me makes me think I don’t want to stop gameplay to do that but the other part of me thinks it’s a really neat concept.

#604 9 months ago

This is another one of those games that come along and looks very special. I hope everyone gets their game and myself included!
I can’t wait to see the cabinet and backbox artwork in person. I’m excited!

#619 9 months ago

Raza is done. You’ll never see it again.
This is a marketing model they should stick to with every game.
It’s brilliant!

#638 9 months ago


Lot of speculation on how Deep Root should run their business. One thing I do know is that it must be a hell of a lot of stress but also a lot of fun to create your company’s first pinball machine and one of this caliber. (I know, it hasn’t happened yet!) But making one single amazing machine doesn’t make a company.

Having a manufacturing assembly line THAT PRODUCES MACHINES IN A TIMELY FASHION is absolutely critical to the success of a PROFITABLE and LONG TERM company. By offering a limited run, this gives your company the opportunity to go through this process from cradle to grave and then identify what you did wrong, problem solve and make adjustments.

Hopefully the well doesn’t run dry and they make it happen.

I’ve already commented earlier why having a limited run is the perfect marketing model in regards to “marketing” your product when starting a pinball company.
If their first machine plays great and is reliable, their next machine(even Food Truck) will be sold out. This is similiar to Spooky’s model. It works.
Plus Deep Root will have most of the capital necessary to produce their next machine by selling out immediately. ZERO SPECUALTION is the other key that’s critical to the SHORT TERM success of a pinball company imo. (First 10 years).

I’m blown away by the quality of the product offering fo a company’s first machine. Very excited.

#682 9 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

My pinball tech Mike was over today to install Mark Gs Alien apron. It’s an unreal mod!
He has his shop at the place where they streamed Raza and prob has more time on it than anyone outside of DR
He’s a really good player and he thinks Raza is fantastic and we won’t be disappointed

Wow. That's some positive feedback. Thanks Ice.
Now the only question is.........when does the first machines ship?????

1 month later
#816 7 months ago
Quoted from FlawlessJS:

Dear RAZA Customer:
We hope all is well. As promised before we want to provide an update over what happened in February and where things are now.
As some of you might know, the winter storms in Texas last week resulted in prolonged power and water outages. The office was closed and all of us faced varying degrees of outages. The outages also impacted the Lab doing our UL/CE certifications. We hope those of you impacted are doing well and getting back to normal.
Obtaining a full system certification (rather than relying on an non-compliant cascade certification from just the power supply) is important for us to be able to offer a quality, compliant, and reliable product. The primary goal for us for RAZA in February was to get the UL/CE certifications done. Unfortunately the weather prevented that from happening. The last update we received prior to the lab closing was that US UL was close to being done. The Canada UL needed a few minor corrective measures. And the CE was about 75% done. Since we have been unable to work with the lab for the last two weeks, we are hoping to get back in the schedule early next week and finish the outstanding requirements. We are still being told it will take 4-5 weeks for the final certification and report once all certifications pass. That puts us into mid April (or sooner if we can).
As an update, we have the lockbar (not pinbar as reported) and lighted side panel vendors remedied. The last engineering task (to improve the stability of the kickstand) is going to be complete next week which will be the last assembly parts to be sourced. Part orders continue to come in and small parts and sub assemblies will start as last posted. We received some criticism in reply to the last update about putting an expectation of mid-March for first shipments. It was meant as an internal goal and external expectation, not a promise of delivery. We are sorry for not better communicating that. Since the certifications and receiving all parts are critical to the start of shipments, we will not put another expectation here other than to say we want to ship as quickly as we can provide a quality well-QA'ed RAZA machine in a box. We thank you again for your patience. We plan to update customers again by the end of March. If you have any questions, please contact us at [email protected] or by visiting the website.
Best! -Robert J. Mueller

Very excited about getting your new machine when it’s finished Robert! You’re getting closer! Stay positive!
It’s going to happen and it’s going to be spectacular.

#825 7 months ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

No. The thing is we have an inkling of how hard this would be to do and would hopefully be a bit more self aware.

Who’s “we”? You got a mouse in your pocket?
Seriously, what is your background on owning a pinball company. Not being sarcastic, I’d actually love to hear from others that have owned a pinball company and get a better understanding of the pitfalls.

#831 7 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

I only wish I was as smart as you. Thanks for sharing.

Lmao. I mistakenly read your comment as “ I only wish I was a smart ass like you. Thanks for sharing.”

#857 7 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Ok, if you can read that other thread and Not see hate, slander, and assumption from Many (NOT ALL) we must be reading a different thread of 15,000 posts. Your reply is actually a good point though you like many have Made your point. Do we need to kneel to you and say you are right? Is it at least Possible maybe your wrong? Maybe these games Will be made? You as many are not buying a product? Why are you So invested in proving us wrong???? Its confusing but I wish you well.

Ignore that guy. It’s a complete waste of time. He Loves to argue and he just goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on......
He thinks he’s in debate class. Lol.

#864 7 months ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Well you chose to quote me and spew more crap when I have already told you I did not order a RAZA and have no skin in the game. You are a very sensitive person to be bothered by that.

Well then if you haven’t ordered a Raza, what the fuck are you doing in this thread???
I don’t give a shit what you have to say pal. Bounce!!

#865 7 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I think its unfortunate that many of you are cherry picking only the titillating posts and focusing on them. There have been some solid comments that seem to go ignored here. I mean I understand your frustrations and the sense you're being ganged up on. But you guys only seem able to justify Deeproot's actions instead of artfully defending them.
I'm amazed that not a single one of you critically analyzed the latest Deeproot update or the one before it. As I said before, some of the anger here I believe is misplaced.
And if you believe games finally shipping will be vindication for you, its not that simple. There are way too many layers to this saga still to come and past predictions from the sceptics have already proved true.

Have your pre ordered a RAZA?????

#866 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Simple.. I'll repeat myself -- "if you want to put your head in the sand or just want to ignore it, that's your prerogative, but don't claim people manufacture hate or other non-sense simply because they call a spade a spade while you pray for happy thoughts."
Instead of people just saying "I'm ok with the risk" (which you have said prior) instead supporters are trying to rewrite and label doubters as people with agendas ("burning down the company") or distorting reality ("manufacturing hate") simply because they will not give DR the free pass you have. It's the textbook example of people trying to paint the opposition as some sort of boogie man because they don't follow the same path as you.

Did you pre order a RAZA???

#874 7 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I did not. But that doesn't exclude me from commenting on an open forum.

No it doesn’t BUT did you read the name of this thread??

It’s called the RAZA Pre-order “CLUB”.
This thread is created for people that have placed a PRE-ORDER for a RAZA.

Go to the Deep Root thread. Share your vast world of knowledge and opinions. I’m sure they will shower you with compliments.

#877 7 months ago
Quoted from Tomass:

I am rooting for all the guys who ordered and I want to see this game come to market. Who are you to tell me where I can post anyway?

Do what you want. But I’m pretty sure none of the guys who ordered need you to “root” for us. We’re grown men.
Jesus, this isn’t a life or death situation. It’s a small down payment for a pinball machine. It’s just a hobby. Chillax. Lol.

3 weeks later
#941 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

We can all theorize (seems there's a thread for that....) but we may never know what the original plan was (nor are we owed that story). Will only say from my world of manufacturing last year going into this year ALL time lines and expectations are Way off. Lead times for something as simple as a Molex plug are out weeks if not months so I'm personally not surprised there was a plan shift. As stated, like many in the past, pitches, rumors, marketing, etc mean nothing to me. The clock starts the day the order desk is Open. Not when the dialog starts. Last I checked there was no TPF last year let alone Any product shows so I don't think many were expecting a whole lot.

Agreed. It’s nice to hear information from someone that has some background in manufacturing and amazing pinball skills.

#951 6 months ago

I had no idea that these giant lead times for certain parts were happening.
Is this strictly because of Covid?

#965 6 months ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Well clearly games are not ready for shipping, that's a given. It would be broadcast everywhere by now.
I'm just hoping it'll have a little more detail that previous updates.
I can wait. Hell I've been in it since my first payment in 2012! What's another few months. I'd just like to "really" know where things stand.

I can’t imagine being in on a machine since 2012. That’s................amazing. I really hope you get that Raza. I’m excited. Can’t wait to get this machine.
The artwork on this game just blows me a way. Gameplay looks like a ton of fun. Looks like a classic Williams with new touches.

1 week later
#1018 6 months ago

As long as jpop is part of dr, the company is part of the theft.

Respectfully, this makes zero sense. Jpop is not a stockholder. Deeproot had nothing to do with jpop when he pulled his shenanigans.
That is a fact.

#1021 6 months ago

So excited to see this game become a reality. It really looks spectacular.
That guy playing the game in the video giving instruction is great to listen to and he’s a good player.

It’s crazy how strong the negativity is on this company. It’s just pinball. Lol.
People constantly telling you the sky is going to fall. So what if it does?
I’m keeping the faith in DR though. Great for pinball to add another pinball company cranking out games even in small volume.

3 weeks later
#1108 5 months ago

Just bought an iPad yesterday and won’t be delivered until the end of June.

#1110 5 months ago

Just watched the Stev Bowden gameplay and rules video on DR website . Man does it look like a fun game to play.
Fingers and toes crossed. I hope this happens. This will be such a fun game. Let’s get er done!!!
Good Luck to Deep Root!

#1214 5 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

To those that think moving on to a different title is a good idea...
Terrible idea! RAZA has to happen first or deeproot is done. There has to be that first title that proves themselves and shows they can do it. No matter what title is first, sales will be abysmal, it does not matter. There are not enough risk takers regardless of the title to make their first offering a big success.
Then, and only then, can other titles follow once they have gained the pinball community’s confidence that they are for real and can deliver. Yes, they have a long road ahead of them, but not an impossible road.

Well I suppose but it’s just an opinion.

#1217 5 months ago

I will take anybody’s slot if they want out. Shoot me a pm. I’m all in baby.
Seriously, I’ll take your slot, I’ll confirm with RM if it’s okay to do so.
This game and it’s rules look REALLY good.
Why? Because I like taking chances and I don’t care what other people think.

You show them RM! Stay strong and forge on.
I don’t blame him for saying “if you want out , fine..no problem, here’s your refund..hit the the bricks!”
Well at least that’s what I picture in my mind. Lol!!!

If this comes out and is good as it looks, he‘’ll be able to tell all the naysayers to go pound sand.
Or it fails and I lose all my money! Lol. Oh well. Life goes on.

#1218 5 months ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I was being totally serious. I have to admit I learned a lot about how Stern builds pinball machines. That was an incredible video about Stern. I was super impressed by the process. After seeing it I realized just how hard it really is to build one of these things. Kaneda for example keeps saying for JJP to hire more people... its not that easy. Building pinball machines is simply NOT easy.
But Deeproot knew that otherwise why would they take your money. I do give credit where credit is due, designing and building the prototype is hard but not that hard... the hard part is manufacturing.
It’s NOT easy.

I agree. 100%.

#1219 5 months ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

well in all fairness, part of that logic is very sound. If you take a refund/money, that is a 100% chance you will never get a game. Very true.
It's interesting that RM has not only not showed any progress pictures in nearly 6 months now, but has explicitly not mentioned anything about what they could have been doing during this time, waiting for parts.. like "playfields are cut and printed, ready to go!" or "100 cabinets are completed with art".. "Shipping cartons are in and ready for games" or even - "there has been a lot of RAZA downtime while waiting on parts and UL cert, which has been poured into our second title which is playable and close to being revealed" .. something along those lines, anything. Sure he doesn't "have to" do this, but ya'd think logically anyone in his position WOULD do this if things were actually happening on Raza.

Not all business owners have the same business model in terms of communication.
For example:
Damian from Haggis: big communicator. Awesome.
Gary Stern and Stern pinball as a whole: very little communication.
Is Jersey Jack giving announcements why they’re behind on production?

I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m just saying that there’s nothing to read into because he doesn’t offer specifics.

#1221 5 months ago
Quoted from wamonkey:

Wow - you are a gambler. I have a deposit in and I am hardly that confident. I see this as 50-50 at best...I just don't have a lot on the line so I am deciding what to do.

Those are great odds at Vegas!
Yeah no I hear ya. It’s tough but I refuse to stress over a pinball machine.
If I do, I need to find another hobby!

That’s part of the adventure of buying into a start up company. You get to be part of something that may end up being very special. It’s fantastic!
Sometimes you get a turd too though...but that’s okay! Lol.

#1224 5 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

I'm sorry, sometimes I forget I'm talking to boomers on here

What’s a boomer?
Is that a compliment or an insult?

#1278 5 months ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

No one here is an owner. I didn’t realize the threads were so exclusive , yeesh

Yeah we get it, no one is an owner but The name of this thread is “Raza pre-order club”. Did you order a Raza?

#1288 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

I have no regrets talking to Ice like that. He’s tries to shout people down. Plus he’s a big boy. There’s no animosity between us.
Something about middle aged men being called boomers really triggers some of them though. I’ve gotten modded for it a few times now lol. People hate being compared to their parents.

I think I get the whole Boomer thing now.
It seems like it’s used at times by a younger person to be dismissive to someone older at times. Not ALL the time though.
But I’ve seen a number of times that term used in different threads and it’s never been a compliment.
There’s a lot of extremely intelligent people on Pinside that are very strong at debate. Flynnibus comes to mind. I don’t agree with most of the stuff he throws out there but I respect his opinion.
When I see someone call someone else a Boomer, I feel that person has given up on articulating their position and throws out the “Boomer” comment. Basically showing their weak, immature and have no intellect. In other words, a pussy. Lol!

#1292 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Ok boomer
In the context of what was being said, it was Ice escalating it and me playfully poking him back. If I wanted to be an actual asshole, I’d be an asshole. Instead I even end my boomer post with an apology.
I was just a bit surprised I got to be the example of a troll compared to some others. I try to be respectful to everyone who behaves respectfully or when I defer to their expertise.

Again you think that’s playful. But it’s not to everyone.
It’s a dismissive term.
I’ll tell you what. I won’t call anybody on Pinside a pussy and you don’t call anybody a boomer on Pinside.

#1295 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

How about we not use any dismissive language at all? Wouldn’t that be grand.

Well I tried.
Back on topic.
So which RAZA did you place an order? Arcade Edition or The Extra Edition?

#1300 5 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

Its just if you're going to write off my comment, at least don't totally miss the point because I said the word "bro" and you're out of touch. Thats big boomer energy. Obviously, not directed at you, Yelobird. I have no hard feelings for anyone, but it just seems easier to say "boomer" than to explain why the obvious joke went over somebodies head. "You see sir, there is this thing on the internet called a meme. There exists a meme where you say bro a lot and it is meant to mock people who are trying hard to convince another person of something. Therefore when I said bro multiple times, it was in jest, as I do not normally speak in such a manner. It was merely in reference to the "please bro" meme as a means to better explain my point"
Whats more, its highly recommended not to respond to the accusation of being a boomer with desperate attempts to explain why you are, in fact, not a boomer (I can beat you in a foot race haha!) That just creates even more comedy and in itself is more boomer energy. Sorry though, I'm not trying to cause more trouble just explaining why boomer may have got tossed around perhaps more than it should have.

Refer to post 1288.

#1307 5 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Well I’ve been focused on rehabbing a total knee replacement since April 1st and then getting through another tax season.
It’s nice to see nothing has changed other than the “combative” stuff has spilled over to this club thread. Lol
For the guys still hanging in I’ll remind you that the local guy that has more hours on this pin than any non employee really likes it a lot and puts it up there with my top games.
So we will see and I’ll wait to watch some heads twist off now.
I realize even the haters are getting tired of hearing themselves chatter and begging DR to put an end to it.

He’s back! Nice.
Sorry to hear about the knee. Rehabbing a knee has to be a very tough process. Stay strong!

#1312 5 months ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

I've given this a lot of thought since the recent "update".
I've been in this since 2012. In 9 mths it will be a decade.
I've given Deep Root $90 in addition to "Zidware Credits" to cover the shipping cost.
Why would I quit now? No way. It's survive or sink with the ship.
Rooting for success!!

That’s fantastic. It’ll happen. Keep the faith!

#1340 5 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

I get everyone wants this machine to be made and I'm one of them. But if you read the fine legal print rm said refu do are fist come first serve. To me that indicates a co.pany going g bankrupt. Also it's been said people are not getting paid. I in good conscience can not support a company that does not pay their employees. Just saying

No I don’t what you’re saying because you got some crazy typos going.

#1352 5 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

I'm not here to start shit but facilitate a true discussion on the possibility that this is never going to happen and that people who need to get their money out do. I support anyone going for the ride and hopefully suceed. I hope I kick myself later.

That’s much appreciated. And I do understand.......with that said............

Now who wants to roll the dice and keep going??!!!!!!!!!
Hell yeah baby I’m going all the way to RAZA town!

#1355 5 months ago

My take is completely different.
I feel RM is sick and tired of all the naysayers. So he’s saying “you want out? No problemo. Here’s your refund. I’ve got people lined up to take your spot.
I don’t see it as a sign of folding at all but more of a sign of being sick and tire of the delay due to shortages and maybe some mistakes due to lack of experience. Regardless, he’s pissed and can’t wait to prove some people wrong.
Either way, it’s fun to be a part of the journey.

#1359 5 months ago

I’m a crazy Boomer!

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#1361 5 months ago
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#1362 5 months ago

Look out! Here come the memes! Lol

#1368 5 months ago

These ladies are not canceling.

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#1390 4 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

The equivalent of sitting at home, alone in your underwear playing online poker for real money. If that entertains you, rock on. For most people, gambling is about the camaraderie.

Yeah that's a big waste of time as well. I don't care what y'all do with your money, and these replies are all the time I have invested here. I just think it's nutty to compare preordering a pinball machine to a night on the town or at the stadium. Y'all are doing this for status, to own a rare game... not because the process is fun. Stop fooling yourselves.

Status? Fooling myself? Get the heck out of here.
Take the negativity and go somewhere else.
We just want to play a kick ass game. What’s wrong with having some fun and being optimistic about a new game?
Oh I’m sorry, I forgot, I’m just doing this for status. Yep. I’m just dying to be be the one that everyone that looks up to in the mighty world of pinball. Lmao!!
By the way, I’m having a lot of fun. I hope you do too.

#1418 4 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Ok pot….
But that was the discussion (the deposit) and was current. Don’t like it… scroll on. You are the most hypocritical to try to call broken record mr “its my decision…”

Ok pot. Haha. I get it now, pot calls the kettle black. I’m slow. haHa!!
I was thinking it was a typo.

#1419 4 months ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Did it occur to you that some of these people think it will be a fun game and something they will enjoy owning? Maybe they even like the idea of getting something a little different. I don't get the mentality of those that only think of pins as investments. These are games for entertainment. If you see no entertainment value in a game find something else that does.

Yeah I’m with you. I don’t get it either.
I want this game because I love the theme, the gameplay with Bowden on Deep Root website, watching him play is so entertaining....I like that guy. I hope to meet him someday, shake his hand and thank him for putting together the rules.
The artwork is just stunning. Soooooo beautiful.
The pin bar is totally innovative imho.
And finally the game looks like a blast to play.
If the game becomes a collector...great.
It the game doesn’t become a collector....great.
I really don’t care.
I play a lot of pinball and I constantly rotate my games.
Me, Iceman, Yelobird, Bowden and Robert Mueller will have a party and you’re all invited. I’ll bring the good stuff, Keystone Light. And we’ll do some Pappy Van Winkle shots to warm up the belly!
Love this hobby. Lots of fun!

#1423 4 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Wrong. I ordered RAZA because I like what I see and want something fresh and different. I don’t care if they make 130 or 130,000. Rarity means nothing to me, status means nothing to me, owning something I think looks cool and fun to play does! From the very first RAZA teaser where they talk about, and I’m paraphrasing, an amusement park built next to a nuclear power plant which happens to sit on an old graveyard, I was hooked. I’m an amusement park enthusiast, I love the horror genre, and the same goes for sci-fi. That coupled with the deeproot platform made this something I wanted, so I put a deposit down...period.
The entire industry is stagnant in my opinion. I have spent countless hours helping, as a pinball tech, at a very well known establishment in the Pittsburgh area and have seen and worked on pretty much everything. Here are my thoughts on some of deeproot’s competition and why I want deeproot to succeed. These views/opinions are mine, they are not meant to be disrespectful/confrontational or will I debate them or discuss them any further. Cargument time!...it would be like me trying to convince a Ford or Chevy man why the old Mopars were the best of the muscle car era...pointless debate and discussion as we would never agree. That being said...
Stern - By far the best playing and shooting pins on the market. The flippers are awesome, they secure top licenses, and they are the 800lb gorilla and just a fine tuned machine. Everyone else is just fighting for the scraps. Their downside is they take very few risks, many of their playfield layouts are redundant, and are all about BOM and profit margin, which I don’t fault them for as they are very good at what they do.
JJP - Absolutely beautiful and impressive looking pins, but I hate the feel of their flippers (yes I’ve tinkered with them), and just don’t like the gameplay of their pins in general. This includes GnR, I’m a fan of the band, but the pin, not so much.
Spooky - Love the company, most of their themes, and what they have accomplished, but I’m not impressed with their quality. The mechs on many of their games, such as the guillotine on ACNC, are junk. R&M has great theme integration, but is one of the worst shooting pins I can remember and just feels cheap. Not Cosmic Carnival cheap, but cheap nonetheless.
AP - Mediocre themes, poor artwork, but good build quality from what I remember. Hot Wheels is fun with an improved art package, but the lighting for the inserts is pretty bad and the car on a stick is awful.
CGC - Flippers suck, but cool they are remaking the beloved 90s titles. Me personally, I’ll take an original every time.
P3 - Definitely innovative, but because of the limitations of the platform, there is very little to do on the lower half of the playfield. Cool stuff, just not for me.
Haggis - Time will tell. They seem to have promise, but have many challenges ahead of them. Also, I own an original Fathom so nothing they have interests me at this time.
PB - Time will tell. What will game #2 be???
The point of all my rambling...other than RAZA, there is not one pin from any manufacturer that excites me other than Stern’s Elvira, but I don’t feel that pin is worth the price of admission. My wife and I have only bought one nib pin, a Catwoman Edition BM66, and I don’t plan on us spending that kind of money again. My Pinside wishlist is all older pins, as there is just nothing newer I want other than RAZA. If deeproot fails, I believe it will be a long time before someone else tries to do something unique and creative and it will be just more of the same with a different license slapped on it. So that is why I want RAZA, not for rarity or anything like that, but because I’m tired of the same thing over and over again. The price on the RAZA Ae was also very attractive, more features than a Stern Premium, but at a lower cost than a Stern Pro. I’m glad we have so many options right now and this is a tough industry to be in, I wish all of the above manufactures nothing but success. There is just very little out there currently being offered that interests or excites me.
I think I used my allotted word count for quite some time. I’ll see all of you after the next RAZA update!


2 weeks later
#1470 4 months ago

I am going to leave mine in the box and play yelobird’s raza.
I’ll play it until that shooter lane looks like a zombie’s ass.

1 week later
#1493 3 months ago

Can’t wait for the next update! I got a good feeling.
You can do it Robert Mueller!
Me and Yelobird will road trip down to Texas and bring some Portillos and brews for all your employees.

#1496 3 months ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Rotfl. The buyers are feeding the employees now. Employees that aren’t making anything.

Hey everybody, it’s........negative guy.
Just gotta love the negative guy. They’re so fun to hang out with. Great for parties.
Just wind them up and let them ramble on. Lol.

1 week later
#1527 3 months ago
Quoted from Makakka:

RAZA is only the beginning only one part of the triptych RAZA MG AIW. Without all 3 in one room RAZA is an incomplete pin. Like in the old alchemy books magic only happens when all components align.

Uh.......yeah whatever you say. Lol.

I’ll feel plenty complete with Raza in my basement.

#1540 3 months ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

I feel like it doesn’t really matter how Robert explains delays. He could keep saying parts delays till the new year, or continued pinbar source issues, whatever. Goodwill customers are on the full ride no matter what. And most others have stated fairly similarly. So the updates don’t mean a whole lot until the one comes that says shipping is imminent or the one comes that says the towel is being thrown in.

I agree wholeheartedly.

#1548 3 months ago
Quoted from frankmac:

After watching and ordering a Spooky Ultraman and how Spooky does BIZ waiting for any info as a costumer of Deeproot I feel like I am the real asshole here.

Don’t be so hard on yourself and hang in there. RM will come through.

#1597 3 months ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Reality - if Robert wanted the 133 pins built, he’d find a way. Can’t find parts is bullshit. That excuse is only legit if Robert was trying to build games and not pay above previous market prices. Maybe he expects to locate coils for $10 or have someone supply metal rails for $50 a set. That approach won’t work now and this is more like a Custer’s last stand situation. If Robert offered me $1 Million profit and was willing to pay $1/2 Million in parts and $1/2 Million for services, I’d have all RAZA’s built by end of year. I’d fly to Rome and hire Michael Angelo to handcraft each one. For $2 Million, 133 games would get made. Instead, we’ve seen 6.5 months pass and Deeproot spend $2 Million in salaries and we are no closer to RAZA # 1 rolling off the line.
The odd thing is that building RAZA’s will not create trust in the company nor spur future sales because building the second game will require a completely different approach. Right now with deposits and some paid in full, Robert needs to build the games any way he can. Regroup for game 2 and plan to use contract manufacturing. If all RAZA’s are not built by August 31, Robert will be gone and Deeproot will be in the throes of a death rattle.

“Throes of a death rattle”...??!! First I’ve gotta compliment you on your writing skills. Seriously. Sounds like it’s right out of a novel.
I agree with you in terms of doing whatever it takes to get the machines out the door. It’s a great opportunity to learn from all your mistakes and create successful systems in manufacturing.
If RM gets these machines out and they play as good as the videos of gameplay I’ve seen, people will be lined up out the door for the next one though.
Without a doubt in my mind.
I can’t wait to crack a couple cold ones, get together with some good friends and play the hell out of this game. Fingers crossed. Should be a blast!

#1608 3 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

I read this thread mostly because less noise than the other one. Have no interest in a RAZA, but also zero hate. Those who keep exclaiming about "haters" need to get a life LOL it's just pinball. This has been the most interesting slo-mo trainwreck of a pinball release I've ever seen, and that's the only reason I'm (sorta) keeping up with it. At this point I have NFI whether the games get built... if they do, that's cool, another game to play. If not, no skin off my back.
No hate, just morbid curiosity.

Awesome. Fantastic. Good to know. I’d ask your opinion more about this game on the Raza preorder club thread but like you said, you have no interest in one.

#1615 3 months ago

Didn’t Ben use to work with Jpop at zidware? Falling out??

#1626 3 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

Ben's name was in the original game's title!
"Ben Heck's Zombie Adventureland"

I wasn’t aware of a lot of this.
I met Ben once at one of Terry’s parties at Pinball Life(which were stellar parties by the way) and I thought he was a terrific guy.

#1649 3 months ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

That poster proves how bat shit crazy Jpop is. And why Ben ran away screaming. And why everyone else should have. “Mystery Mechs”, “super goodie bag”, DIY pinball kit, “play the trailer”, “Two Shooters”. Jesus H. Christ, stop the madness.

Was Ben and Jpop the first ones to come up with the “goodie bag”. Now Haggis, Stern and Spooky all do it but they call it “swag”. Lol.
And now it’s called a “membership”! I love it. Great way to raise cash.
They just need to be a little more creative with the swag bag.

#1654 3 months ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Goodie Bags have been in pinball machines for decades.

Yeah I get it. But not “Super Goodie Bags”.

#1668 3 months ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Robert M’s decision to delay an update was a mistake. He promised the community they would get an update and then didn’t provide it. It would have been easy to provide one. By missing another deadline, Robert gets a strike for lying. Granted this is a minuscule one and more of one of poor planning. But Robert has a credibility problem and this didn’t help.
In the one decision, he also made a mistake by linking being able to report meaningful progress with releasing the update. He never told us that was what he was doing but it likely was what he meant. So Robert was unclear with his intent too. The problem with waiting to report something until there is significant progress is the unpredictability it causes. So if event doesn’t occur, you rationalize, it will happen in a few weeks and then you’ll report. Well the thing you are waiting for inevitably takes forever to occur, and so when you give that update three months have gone by.
Until now our understanding of Robert running the company was he had raised tons of capital and he could continue at will for as long as the funds hold up. That is still unchanged but know that he has investors and a board to answer to. Once one of them sees the money suck going on and puts their foot down. The operation will be shut down. I believe this is already occurring and this is why I selected Aug 31 as important. That is not any official date but would be a reasonable point in Deeproot’s timeline to be shipping games or laying everybody off. Robert M’s background is making profitable investments and were he to look at his own books, he’d have to see it is time to give up. While you may be tempted to look at what was spent to get here, it is better to focus on what the future looks like. Those tea leaves are saying run Forrest, run!

Ahhh the old armchair quarterback statement and evaluating a company’s history. Lol.

#1684 3 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Very true and appreciated. Yes, I have been around pinball for MANY years and long ago there were NO spares for Anything yet we always managed to get the games going. Cosmic just like the Alien I owned have never really been all that hard to figure out and with the knowledge sharing in forums like this I have yet to come across a bricked forever game. As long as code is playable (which looks very much the case in this title) the rest is simple tinkering if anything goes wrong. I own games from United, Chicago Coin and dozens more long since out of business and they still play like new. I have absolutely NO concern with this game.

Don’t forget you hired my services to do repairs for you………because of my incredible skill set.

#1688 3 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Yeah I do recall that not every time I hit the flippers my toilet flushes. Lol

Some people prefer to have their toilet flush when they hit their flippers. Or possibly, real actual smoke coming out of your backbox while you play.
Or even that electrical burning smell where one of your coils are locked up. All of these are my specialty, my services aren’t cheap or my repairs. Lol!

#1691 3 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Wilhelm at deeproot indicated that according to Robert a RAZA update was likely this week. I do not think this will be the “now shipping” update everyone is hoping for, however, I do think this will be a very significant update with specifics as to their progress. Maybe wishful thinking...thoughts anyone???

Yeah I think you nailed it right on the head. I feel it’s unlikely they will be shipping games but a significant update with their progress and we should then be in the home stretch.

#1695 3 months ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

But he DID delay an update DS_Nadine--Robert said after the 4th of July holiday he'd give an update. That was two weeks ago now. I feel like it's disingenuous to pretend that we're still in "after-the-holiday-weekend" territory here. It's obvious this is another missed deadline from Robert (albeit a minor one). Unless we're no longer supposed to take Robert's statements at face value?
I don't know why Robert even bothers to put dates on things, it just gives him another timeline to miss. And sure, the follow-up email did say an update would be coming this week (no specific day), but the email also implied that an update could be even sooner. Which obviously didn't happen.
So while deeproot still has plenty of time to get an announcement out this week, no matter what day they release an update, it will certainly be at least a bit later than we could have expected based on Robert's last communication. Not that it really matters of course, but it is another in a long line of broken promises and missed deadlines from deeproot.

That sounds like quite the pipedream! But if the next update does include those things, then I'll happily make an extra donation to Pinside as a show of penance!

I gave you a thumbs up because there was a point when you said “not that it really matters”. That’s where’s you nailed it. Lol.

#1702 3 months ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

So in addition to the July 4th non-update, the forecasted July 19th update was missed too? Now we have Wilhelm at Deeproot promising an update this week. If that doesn’t happen, does Deeproot miss another deadline or does that one not count because Robert never posted it himself, in writing? Sorry, I’ll sit quietly for a few days to give Robert time to deliver his state of the union.

You’re hilarious. Just trolling’ huh?
Don’t you have better things to do with your time?

#1712 3 months ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Your premise is flawed. This is beyond “things people don’t like”. This is a decade long story of our friends and fellow hobbyists being taken for a ride. The story is what it is. Its toxicity is purely on those who created the problem. There’s nothing wrong with discussing it. Actions have consequences, and people who do bad things shouldn’t be ignored - it just allows them to continue hurting people. We all just want this thing to reach a conclusion. It’s bad for the hobby in a multitude of ways, not just for those who “bought” one.

I completely understand where you’re coming from.
No disrespect but this is the RAZA pre-order Club thread. It’s for people that actually placed an order. So I come to this thread to talk to other people that have placed an order. It’s a “Club” thread.
For example, I don’t go to JJP Guns and Roses Club thread and take a shit on it. You know why? It’s because I don’t OWN one.
I don’t waste my time and pretty sure the GNR club thread doesn’t care about my thoughts of where JJP stands. Nor would I want to rain on anyone’s parade.

I think you’re looking for the Deep Root Thread.

#1736 3 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Come on it’s all love. I know my arcade will always be open to anyone that wants to give it a flip. It’s only pinball.


#1743 3 months ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Where you see angst and hostility, I see a bunch of people just having fun with an obvious shit show.
...and can we please knock off the whole "I'm on a pinball message board criticizing people for how they spend their time on it while I spend my time on it criticizing people for spending time on it it!". Do you not have more constructive things to do? C'mon...we're all here talking about pinball. Calling out people's posting habits is silly projection.

What you call "vitriol', others might call "holding people accountable for their patterns of bad behavior".

Oy, the hyperbole! "Venom spewing" = discussing the situation.

Jpop has screwed a lot of people & RM has bragged a lot and insulted an entire industry. Simple schadenfreude, really. It's enjoyable to see bad people fail.

I mean....the internet was pretty much invented for jerking off.

Cuz we're all pinbuddies, maybe of us have witnessed and been part of this mess since MG was announced & it's fun to talk to each other? If Jpop had quit pinball & RM had never bragged about how he was going to destroy everyone in the industry, we'd have nothing on this topic to talk about. That's on them.

From my perspective, the only true negativity I've seen has come from the RAZA buyer side in the form of truly despicable threats toward me and my family....because I dare to question a failed designer and the blowhard that employs him.

Thanks for keeping people “accountable”. We don’t know what we’d do without you.
Keep talking.
If it makes you feel better, we’ll listen.

#1750 3 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

I'm still a pre order who hates RM. What disappoints me more are so called savy lawyers/ cpas. No I didn't take anything so I can bash at will. RM is a prick. Take my don't care he's still a scumbag. It's not jpop. But I'm sure he's in it somewhere. As a preorder I'm allowed to say they are all dueche bags.

As a Preorder, I completely respect your opinion.
I personally don’t have any hatred for anybody in pinball really. For me, it’s just business.
If I get my machine…..fantastic. If I don’t, we’ll that’s one in the loss column. Win some, you lose some. No big whoop.

#1774 89 days ago
Quoted from metallik:

I'm here as a pre-player. You'll get your precious club when dr ships a game. Complain to them, not us.

What in the fuck is a “pre-player”??????

#1778 89 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:A brief intermission from recent wave of Raza analysts... Our playfield (2) showed up today donated by DR to Project Pinball to support Gilbert Elijah and his family. The Mod Couple is Proud to support the amazing efforts and kindness of the Project Pinball team. Amazing people!!!! Now we have an uncut and prototype Raza on display autographed by the team at DR. Both look spectacular and remarkably all the inserts are well defined and look great. lol
Fun project: The other thread can use this as a "Wheres Waldo" hunt to see which names are new or old from 1 year ago! Have fun!
[quoted image][quoted image]

Let me see here………….I’ve got a used Dolly playfield, Big Game and Harlem Globetrotters And new Quicksilver playfield I’ll trade you for the prototype.

#1797 88 days ago

This thread has certainly been interesting. Lol.

I don’t get it but to me it’s just pinball. All fun stuff.

Hey Yelobird,
What kind of beer you want when you come over and play this machine when it finally comes out?
I’m going to have some Miller Lite bottles and some Pappy Van Winkle I got as a gift for a special occasion. Maybe over the rocks.
The maybe some Pineapple Guppy IPA after.

#1805 88 days ago
Quoted from metallik:

That, and the fact the other deeproot thread is now about groceries. This thread is the last stand for RAZA.
I would honestly be quite happy if dr came out of the blue and said they've been quietly building machines with what parts they could get, and they're ready to ship the first couple dozen. This project-turned-joke's gone on long enough, time for closure. Git 'r done.

Grocery Liist
Loaf of Bread
Big Bowl of Shut the Hell Up
Lots of Baloney

#1965 79 days ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

All we've got now is memes and lols.
And nothing personal, but the "This is fine" meme just always pops into my head when we get more bad news and you make a point of saying how much you don't mind.
But like I said, it's all good. I only have bad feelings towards Robert and whoever else is running the show over there.

So you express that by calling out another pinsider in a meme.
Kind of a dousche move.

#2017 73 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

[quoted image]

Just like school in the summer………No Class.

#2023 73 days ago

It’s over??
Nothing is over.
Did they say it was over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor??
Hell no!!
Leave him alone….he’s on a roll.

Has there been any announcement that this project is over? Or are we just reading the tea leaves.
I’m not giving up!!
Cmon RM!! Crank out a machine for me!!

#2039 72 days ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

What’s mind blowing is that Icey got taken in every major pinball scam.

What’s mind blowing is you tracking “Icey’s” spending habits. Get a life.

#2040 72 days ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

RM’s “cranking one out” alright…

Ha! True.

#2041 72 days ago
Quoted from Scandell:

I think he has mentioned on a few different occasions that he is very wealthy and can afford all pinball related risks. I think….


#2042 72 days ago
Quoted from Frax:

Stockholm Syndrome is real.
Also....missing one of the key points of the biggest war in history is uh.....wow.

Have you seen Animal House?? It was a JOKE!………..uh………wow. But thanks for your history lesson. Lmao.

#2043 72 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Sad to see the BFF partnership lost. You two looked so happy and playful designing Raza.
[quoted image]

Wait a second…….Ben, we’re you going to tell everybody you guys were best buds?? Lol.

#2052 72 days ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Tracking? You mean reading Pinside? He probably has 5,000 posts alone shilling the various scams. Tracking….

Good point.

#2053 72 days ago
Quoted from Frax:

No, actually, I haven't. And I wasn't the first person to mention that so what the hell ever, man.
I couldn't care less that you were trying to make some asinine joke that fell on it's face. Use the sarcasm tag if you're joking. Otherwise, I assume you're an idiot. Expecting that every person on the face of the earth is going to get your reference to a 40+ year old movie is.....ignorant at best.

I’ll promise to pull out some Justin Beaver references for you.
Use the sarcasm tag??!! Yeah I’ll get right on that. Oh wait, I’m sorry……I should’ve used the sarcasm tag.

#2065 72 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Yes, how may I help you? Need another history lesson lol.

it’s all good….just don’t be THAT guy.

#2097 71 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

John never created a contract or "use of likeness" agreement with me back when the game was BHZA. He just says "I'm gonna make a game about you!" and starts commissioning art.
Ya'll have hitched your wagon to a HORSE WITH NO LEGS. RAZA might be the most ill-conceived game ever. Why not just spray paint Cyclone purple, toss on some glitter while it's still wet and call it good?

Yeah it’s rough stuff but it is what it is. I guess we’ll see exactly how committed and how much money RM actually has.
Jpop has absolutely nothing to do with the financing of this project at this point. None. Zip. Yeah I get it he’s still a dick.
Closing off social

Quoted from Roostking:

We are doing the public a service, by educating and warning them.
Some are grateful.
Why lie about your pin purchases? You clearly stated you bought 2 xtras, did you lie then to sound cool, or are you lying now, to sound smart? At least we all agree it's a mess!

I think we all agree you’re acting like a fuckin’ jagoff. Stop harassing people.
This is ridiculous.
Did you even place an order or are you just here to follow people around.
What is your purpose?
Nobody gives a shit. This clearly gets you jazzed up to bother people. STOP being THAT guy.

#2098 71 days ago
Quoted from mrgone:


No, you, and others here are the ones that continue to support people who commit theft, fraud, wire fraud.etc.
So, by supporting and condoning these actions you yourself are culpable in and for these actions.
All the good people here are sick snd tired of seeing good people get cheated because YOU, and others continue to support snd protect known liars, cheats, and conman.

Get the fuck out of here.
What are you? The court of public opinion?
You are hilarious.
All the good people??
Do you even read your shit before you post?

Please list the evidence that RM committed theft, fraud and wire fraud.
I’m waiting.........
You talk like a child.

#2099 71 days ago
Quoted from mrgone:Don’t worry man. I will never buy any of your mods so we are good. Be well.

Don’t worry man. Nobody gives a shit. So we’re good. Be well.

#2160 70 days ago
Quoted from gliebig:

Can we get back to discussing this Germany/Pearl Harbor thing?

Boom! Now you’re talking! Lmao.
It’s never over.
I’m going down with the ship baby!

#2241 68 days ago

I’m not sure how many pre-order people are on this thread anymore.
As far as I can tell, DR has announced they are in the middle of a lawsuit and they shut down social media.
Those are the facts. Nothing else.
I’m not sure why mostly everybody thinks they are done yet.
They are not out of business yet.
These machines can still be made. Time will tell.

#2243 67 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

By which employees? The ones who are furloughed, or the ones who didn't get paid? Serious question.

Quoted from Roostking:

By which employees? The ones who are furloughed, or the ones who didn't get paid? Serious question.

No interest in answering a single fucking question you ask me.

#2282 67 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Then quit posting stupid shit, that begs the questions, to be answered.
You said they will be built. I'm assuming by you, since you can't answer the question...

Quoted from Roostking:

Then quit posting stupid shit, that begs the questions, to be answered.
You said they will be built. I'm assuming by you, since you can't answer the question...

Keep begging for your questions to be answered.
I simply won’t answer a fucking question you give me.
You’re not worth it.
You called me out in another thread. I don’t even communicate on that thread EVER. You have zero class in that respect.
Keep attacking. The more you speak, the less credibility you have on this thread and on Pinside.
I placed a pre-order. That’s why I’m here. Did you???
If not, why are you here? To educate me and everyone else about DeepRoot and how to avoid future scams for the good of the hobby? Please……………stop.

I come here to be positive and hopeful with others like me that made an investment with actual money. It’s my hobby and it’s enjoyable to talk with others that are in the same position. Whether the Raza get made or not. There’s no secret agenda. No insider information.
Why are you here? What….to “tell me how it is”?
That’s laughable……..seriously…….it’s laughable.

#2283 67 days ago
Quoted from littlecammi:

There is no point in anyone with just a deposit down pulling out now. It is still the same gamble they were willing to take back in December 2020. They either get their RAZA (very rare and collectible), get a refund forced on them if Deeproot pulls the plug and blames any one of countless available reasons, or lose their deposit if Deeproot declares bankruptcy. The pre-order guys are not oblivious to deeproot's troubles and the numerous delays. They just hope to somehow get their game before deeproot pulls the plug. They Figure the fewer RAZAs produced the more their rare game will be worth.

Wow. It’s amazing how you know exactly what I’m thinking about my pre-order and possibly getting a Raza machine.
But is it possible you’re completely dead fuckin’ wrong?
Is it possible that I just want this machine because I’ve watched the gameplay videos and just love the potential fun this game can offer me?
Is it possible that the future value of this game is on the bottom of my list of reasons for getting this game?
Is it possible that I want to see another start up, survive and eventually thrive just like my own business I started 24 years ago? Same as the case in buying Haggis, Pinball Brothers, Heighway Pinball and Dutch pinball games as well for me?
Nope. You got us all pre-order guys figured out. Thanks for the input. What a bunch of garbage. It’s sad how skeptical some of the thinking is around here.

#2284 67 days ago
Quoted from metallik:

I'm glad you liked it. It was pretty good, but for me was the beginning of their decline. Their first 4.5 albums were special; the black album and following records just didn't have the same oomph. Bob Rock fixed the shitty sound that Justice suffered from, but also started them down the commercial rock road...

Yeah, as cheesy as that whole album was, it had some pretty damn good music. Could listen front to back and not get bored. I put it among Crue's best.

Totally agree on the Motley Crue.
That other song Girls, Girls, Girls (different album) was always cranking in the gym when I’d got to workout back in the day. I’m not a music pin guy but I wonder if they’ll ever make a Crue pinsomeday.

#2290 67 days ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

If it plays kickstart my heart on repeat, yeah! What else is there? Shout at the devil? Lol

Too Fast For Love
Live Wire
Smoking in the Boys Room
Girls Girls Girls

But yeah, the list of tunes isn’t massive compared to Zeppelin or even AC/DC imho.

#2299 67 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Hell yeah, sign me up for Pink Floyd!

Quoted from Tranquilize:

Okay, live wire I guess. Maybe too fast for love.. maybe. The rest would get old quick.

Yeah I’ve got to agree with you.

#2301 67 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Huh. So a non-answer, means you don't have any idea how they could be built.
Losing cred? I and others have seen this as a joke since day one and tried to warn people. You on the other hand cheer dr and post supposed insider info that the games will be built, yet won't disclose what you know. Who has no cred again?

Keep rambling. It’s no working. You’re time is up. Time to go back to the DR thread. Feel free to talk negative about myself or pinsiders that pre-ordered on the other thread. That’s your style.
You sir…..have lost all credibility.

Do you deny calling me out in the other thread? Seriously……what is wrong with you.
Have you placed a pre-order???
Yeah…….I didn’t think so.
You have zero value in this thread.

#2307 67 days ago
Quoted from benheck:Yeah I WISH I had had some real involvement. The game would have gotten made for one thing.
A lot of my frustration is due to the fact my name was associated with the Zidware mess. One of the many reasons I wish RAZA, one way or another, would be put to bed.

I gotta ask you a question Ben. Isn’t their a small part of you that would like to see this game be made?
I mean I completely understand your position on why you hate Jpop but you were involved in this originally and I think it would be somewhat rewarding,albeit in a twisted fashion, to see this get done.
It seems like you’ll always be connected to Raza so why not end on a note that could possibly make you feel good inside because you were one of the original guys involved.
Personally, I just think it’s good for the soul? You know what I mean?

#2313 67 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

I wish it would get made, if only to finally put it to rest. I don't hate Jpop, I pity him, but it's aggravating to see how much energy is wasted on these ancient, ill-conceived games of his.
If deeproot made RAZA, great! Then it's done. If they fail... then people still are clinging to hope. "Someone might buy the assets" etc. IT NEVER ENDS.

I agree. Let’s hope Robert Mueller gets it done and puts it all to rest.
The game itself, separating from all the heartache and drama, still looks like a lot of fun and your input, however long ago, would never be forgotten.

#2317 67 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Yea, I probably did, you clearly deserved it. It's nuts to think people like yourself think I don't want you to get a game. Of course we do, it's just seems completely obvious it won't happen. Zidware 2.0. This thread will soon be re-titled, RAZA post-scammed.
To be clear, I hope you and every buyer get your game. I don't have your money.

I deserved it huh. You keep telling yourself that while you go back to the DR thread to justify your inability to show some decent etiquette.

#2318 67 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Wasn’t a guess Mike. I had updated code being worked on then. And yes I lost a bet being way too early.
It was happening back then. Don’t take my word for it. Cointaker would confirm it
Sometimes things take a LOT longer to play out.
That’s my point. As poorly as its gone thus far, the DR saga is far from over brother!
And I’ve said many times, my pin buddy has played Raza more than any non DR person. He hosted the “What’s Brewing” event. He’s an excellent player and I respect his opinion.
It’s why I stayed in on the game.

I agree. This is not over yet.

1 week later
#2501 58 days ago
Quoted from UnholySpectacle:I just hope somebody picks up Steve Bowden.

This is whole reason I went in on trying to get a RAZA. The gameplay in the video looks terrific and Steve Bowden just seems like a terrific guy.
This is very sad.
My guess is RM’s accounts are frozen right now for possible embezzlement.
I hate seeing any company not succeed because there is generally a lot of terrific employees with families that get burned.
For me, I’ll just chalk one up in the loss column but for the employees, that’s a horrible and very frustrating situation.
I also hope Steve Bowden gets picked up somewhere else, it seems like he would be a huge asset.

#2530 58 days ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Ha, Klank didn't seem to be taking it in stride with that one.
I brought it up again because it was a dickish post and attitude. He was super self-righteous and as it turns out, completely wrong.
So yeah, not very mature of me I suppose, but I hate it when people shout aggressively at others online. Especially, when the person they're shouting at is actually right.
It definitely sucks that people lost money on this deal. A LOT of people as it turns out. And it's super gross what Robert was doing with investor money. Talk about no class.

I can dish it out and I can take it as well. Let me have it. That’s cool. Lol.
You’re more than welcome to say I told you so.

This doesn’t make you a better person by rubbing someone’s face in it after the fact playing the armchair quarterback.
It kind of comes across as a dickish post with attitude and super self righteous. No?
Look I’m kidding. It’s a hobby. Nothing personal.

I lost money in this whole deal. What did you lose?
There are so many people on pinside that hide behind their avatar with no skin in the game and point fingers. I’ll say it again.
No Skin in the Game. But talk a lot of smack.

The only time I post a “dickish post” is when some dude posts some shit, acts like Nostradamus with Zero skin in the game.
Anything is easy if you’re not vested. Literally anything.

This one goes in the the loss column. Not a big deal. Move on to Haggis! Lol.
I’m sure you’re a terrific guy but do you or anybody like having someone look over your shoulder when you buy just about anything? Heck no.
That’s originally what this thread was designed for. Pre-order dudes talkin’ to pre-order dudes.

I gotta ask. Did you place a pre-order? Just curious. Did you have skin in the game? (And I don’t mean this in a malicious way of any kind).
Usually when I ask and someone doesn’t answer, it means no.

If you lost out like I did. I’m sorry you lost money as well.

#2531 58 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Well I think you probably understand the context of Klank’s comments and the frustrations involved Mike?
It did get a bit old the non stop drum beat that just continued to spill over to the “pre order thread”
It’s over now and yes the only people that will ever “let it go” are the ones that got stuck. Or maybe not, I suppose they could file a lawsuit against Robert personally. Maybe reach out to Mitchell for some legal help?
Ok, ice chest is full in the golf cart, time to pop a top and enjoy life and be thankful I’m not Robert!

Ahhhhhh….a chest full of beers in the golf cart. Sounds delish. About to head out on my golf trip to Michigan very soon.
Do you got the blue tooth speaker in the cart as well? I started doing that too. It’s relaxing.
Toss some Johnny Cash on or some Stones. It’s fantastic!

#2536 58 days ago
Quoted from frolic:Fair. Might they have sold more games if there hadn't been a tire fire thread? Quite possibly.

They said they sold out. How is that possible?

#2585 57 days ago
Quoted from benheck:I also enjoy seeing people who bought into Deeproot's bullshit LOSING THEIR MONEY.

You know, I thought you were a terrific guy when I met you a long time ago at Terry’s party at Pinball Life but that kind of statement is simply not necessary. And completely over the top.
Honestly, I don’t follow this stuff as much as you but I thought the game looked fun because of seeing Steve Bowden’s enthusiasm for the game. So I took a chance.
Now you say I deserve to lose my money. Why?

#2589 57 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

I also enjoy seeing people who bought into Deeproot's bullshit LOSING THEIR MONEY.

I read this statement again and I still don’t understand why you would put out a statement like this that is so terrible.

We’ve all said stuff that is argumentative and been harsh to one another. In the end, I think everyone here on Pinside are terrific people that have passion for a hobby but this is a whole new level.

#2595 57 days ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Call it “tough love”. We presented so many facts & tried to warn those of you who refused to see it…but many of you became enraged at people like us & turned into a cult - defending RM & Jpop at every turn. Some of you even placed blame on Ben for this debacle. What’s he supposed to do, pat you on the head and say “Oh no, you never saw this coming, poor lad”.

No I won’t call it “tough love”. You did.

I want to know why, DIRECTLY from Ben why he enjoys seeing ME, that bought into Deep Root, LOSE MY MONEY.
What did I ever do to you?

#2597 57 days ago
Quoted from kklank:

No I won’t call it “tough love”. You did.
I want to know why, DIRECTLY from Ben why he enjoys seeing ME, that bought into Deep Root, LOSE MY MONEY.
What did I ever do to you?

Where the fuck are you at Ben?

#2603 57 days ago
Quoted from Beechwood:

I could be wrong, but even after all the warnings, red flags, and pleading, the only way this finally goes away is if hard lessons are learned. And apparently the only way that was going to happen at this point was for people to lose their deposits.
It sucks, and it sounds harsh, but it's reality.

I’ve said it before. I’m okay with losing money at times. And I’m okay with the I told you so’s.

But don’t defend what Ben said. That is simply WRONG.
Completely over the top.

What kind of a person says “I also enjoy seeing people who bought into Deeproot's bullshit LOSING THEIR MONEY.”

He doesn’t even know these people that took a chance.

#2604 57 days ago
Quoted from davjoszie:

I prefer to think of it as they "deserved" to lose their money.

You’re kidding right???

#2611 57 days ago
Quoted from davjoszie:

Nope I'm as serious as a four hour erection. Sending preorder money to DR was equal to flushing it down the toilet. I am hopeful at this point people will begin to accept and realize that.

Lol. Okay that was funny. The 4 hour correction.

#2615 57 days ago
Quoted from roffels:

Maybe he didn't think you'd take it so personally?

Maybe we should let Ben speak.

I’m not a mind reader. Are you?

#2624 57 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:You want empathy after the way you went after people? lol

I hear what you’re saying Flynn. I can dish it out and I can take it, within reason.
This, imho, was unnecessary to attack a lot of people he doesn’t know in that manner.

#2626 57 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Your choice - but remember in life Karma's a bitch. Just sayin…

Quoted from benheck:

Been proven TIME AND TIME AGAIN - no manufacturing ready = YOU WILL LOSE MONEY.
A sea of red flags and you still threw money into it. That's on you, and yes, I'm gonna laugh.

Okay Ben. That’s your position.

#2629 57 days ago

Yeah this is a dead duck.
I respect all your opinions.
Best wishes.
I’m out.

#2820 52 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I don’t think anybody who ordered a RAZA this time around has anybody to blame but themselves. I mean most of the buyers were pretty clear they knew they were “rolling the dice” and strapping in for the ride. I don’t remember any evangelicals this time around trying to talk anyone else into taking the plunge.
And even if there were there were a chorus of “are you nuts?!?!” Ringing throughout the land when deep root finally started asking for money.

I’ve stated before that I knew I was taking a chance and rolling the dice. I also agree 110% that I have nobody to blame but myself. I lost out on Raza.
The thing I wasn’t aware of was that I had no idea RM was a thief.

I also have nobody to blame but myself for receiving an email that my Alien will be arriving any day now and I’m very excited because I rolled the dice. So I’m
1 for 2. I’m in no way suggesting that I know more than anybody else about pinball. Far from it, I just decide to take a chance.
I also bought into Haggis. I may lose my money there too. We’ll see.

#2822 52 days ago
Quoted from hank527:

Why? He was vocal at convincing others to support Deeproot. I like him as a person though his views were way skewed and he shares some responsibility in this mess.

He shares some responsibility in this mess?
That’s a bit of a stretch, don’t you think.
Yelobird is solid and very helpful to everyone in this hobby. He along with everyone else simply wasn’t aware that RM was embezzling.
There is one person and one person only that is responsible and that is Robert Mueller.
The stockholder of the company bears the sole responsibility to make sure no one plays with the working capital in the operating account.
The employees most likely had no access to the operating account and had no idea either what was happening. And either did Yelobird.

#2823 52 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Just remember you can always pick up a SternBar in the future that mimics the Pinbar. Coming soon on Stern games….

I rather just pick up a Snickers Bar and grab a brew and call it a day.

#2824 52 days ago

I keeping hearing this $750,000/month burn rate in terms of monthly payroll.
That seems really really high.
How many employees did rm have specifically at deep root pinball?

#2830 52 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

And you deserve all that comes your way.
Serious question, do you know what hydrofoils and Andrew Heighway have in common? Have you fully read up on Alien and its pitfalls? I hear someone is looking to get out of TB,L you could be that lucky someone!

As I’ve already stated, I agree with you.
As for Alien, I’ve owned the original and now am getting the new one. It’s a terrific game.
I can see you don’t like to take a lot of risks because you own one game. That’s cool.
TB,L??? You mean The Big Lebowski?? I’ve owned 2 Lebowskis. That game is spectacular. Terrific code, just needs a little more depth.

#2832 52 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Read the whole sewer thread, as you come across as uneducated. As a vocal pre-order supporter, you probably would not have asked this question, if you had. We were asking the question when RM put that $$$ out there, which I guess he thought would impress? It didnt..

Yeah no it didn’t. But I don’t follow this whole thing as close as others. I just simply wanted a game.
My reaction to the money he through out(750k burn) was that he was stretching the truth to include all of his employees that were under the Deep Root thread.
Basically to make it sound like Deep Root pinball was bigger than it actually was. Which imho was the case.

#2834 52 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Cool, I have yet to see either and Alien or TBL(Damn grammar Nazis when on a small kb) anyway. As far as 1 or 100 pins, I dont speculate on the value of pins. Youve got the $$$ to buy and sell on a whim, thats cool man. I prefer to not lose money...

The funny thing about all these new games. I’ve done okay(meaning I haven’t lost money) on Alien and TBL. I always came in at the end of the cycle not the beginning.
It’s all the Sterns and restoring older games that I lose money on. Nobody wants to pay you for what you put into a restored game.

#2836 52 days ago
Quoted from Yoreland:

This is very true. I couldn't give Munsters pro away it seemed. I took a big hit on that.

Lol. Yeah I only lost a couple hundred bucks but I bought and sold that game within 3 days. That’s the only time I’ve ever sold a game so quick. For me anyway, I could immediately tell the code was not for me.

#2840 51 days ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

Very true about restored games. Unless you are HEP, then people wanna pay you lol. But those games usually take a bit of a hit too when time to see to the next person.
Regarding the $750/month burn — that was pretty early on, when Robert had hired a bunch of designers, funding all the animations and in a large expensive building. Nobody knows what he was actually burning of course but who the f, as a new company with no product to sell, brags about burning $$$ like that? It was absurd at the time, and more absurd now that we know he was bragging about blowing thru stolen cash. There was zero effort to control or manage any costs so I wouldn’t be that surprised if $750k a month wasn’t that far off from reality

Yeah I disagree.
I could be wrong but I feel he was counting ALL of his employees from ALL of his companies into that specific 750k a month for payroll comment not just “Deep Root Pinball”.
So if he said just “Deep Root” was spending that 750k a month in payroll, he may have been telling the truth because that meant all the employees under the Deep Root umbrella but nobody picked up on it which is what everyone is confused about.
That’s why it would be great to hear an ex-employee say how many people worked there.
Even if you’re including some gigantic space of say 20,000 square feet, the cost per square foot is probably only like 12 bucks a foot/gross or 8 bucks triple net. So you’re only adding maybe an extra 20k a month to total monthly overhead. (Haggis for example, moved into their new and much bigger space and it was 12,000 square feet.)
Easy enough to figure out, just look at the PPP loans he received and the different Deep Root companies should be itemized with individual amounts cash amounts he was granted. It’s been a while, but the amount received would have been for 8 weeks of payroll with a max of 100k/employee(anything over that amount, the govt. wouldn’t grant that money to the company)so the calculation wouldn’t be a 100% correct but probably close.

#2889 50 days ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

I did just that, and Ice, I owe you an apology. I was wrong for saying that you said the 575 wasn't funding the pinball division. Quite the opposite, you said that it likely was indeed funding it. I could explain why I thought you had said it didn't, but it doesn't matter. I was wrong. My bad man

That’s a nice gesture Haymaker. (Not being sarcastic). Thumbs up in my book.

#2921 49 days ago
Quoted from Manic:

This doesn't make any sense unless I'm missing something. The FIRST thing DR did to try to get rid of some of the stench of Jpoop was to offer full refunds to his earlier "customers" (read:victims). When you've been taken for 5, 10, 20K and now you can get your money back? How often in life does this happen? In my estimation anyone with any sense at all would thank god and jump on that refund. Pronto. A miracle. And many did. No more "100% loss".
The ones that didn't? Well they took a gamble that they may end up with a "valuable, limited" collectable that they could flip later. Since nobody knew what it would play like... what other reason could there be? For the art? Whatever... but that was their choice.
Point is they certainly didn't need you to buy anything to "make them whole". In fact it could be argued that your confidence and positive vibes throughout this scam may have led some to later buy into the final pre-order and truly be unable to get that money back. But hey... they're adults and know the risk of a pre-order with a completely untested entity.

I hear what you’re saying but the pre-order slots sold out in a matter of minutes so, in my opinion, I don’t think it was possible to have much influence. Deep Root didn’t offer any more slots to buy later on if my memory serves correct.

#2982 48 days ago

The “woke” culture has come to Pinside!
Everyone is culpable. Everyone must apologize.
Everyone must be canceled! Lol.
The people the pre-ordered must be privileged! Fuck em! Grab your pitchforks!!
Crazy town.

I’m just joking……or am I. Get a grip people.

Heck with this. I’m going golfing tomorrow like I did today.

Super happy a lot of people are getting refunds.

#3042 46 days ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

No, I don't think so.Ben was giddy and pompous about guys losing money on games. Damn Happy about it.
I felt that was a douche move.
I also don't think I threatened him.
I implied that Everyone is watching your posts Ben. For a moment he was forgetting he's still in the industry.
AND.....That post is from 11 days ago, where you been, your late.

It was a douche move.

#3111 45 days ago
Quoted from bmegar:

I put the deposit down when deeproot was taking preorders.I used a credit card.So even after 8 months I can still get a refund?

Yes absolutely.

#3148 43 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Here’s speculation- that now requires a tattoo![quoted image]

Why would you go through someone’s posts from 2 years ago and repost. That is so UNCOOL.
What in the heck is wrong with you?

#3150 43 days ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Ice makes Pinside fun. When he comes back, I will celebrate.


#3152 43 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

I didn’t- someone posted in ASOA thread today douchebag. Not cool to assume.

My apologies.

#3154 43 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

I didn’t- someone posted in ASOA thread today douchebag. Not cool to assume.

So you took a post from another person from another thread and posted in this thread?

#3156 42 days ago
Quoted from kklank:

So you took a post from another person from another thread and posted in this thread?

And the Deep Root thread??

#3162 42 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Yep! Gotta warn the next generation, not to be dum dums.
So did you really get a refund, or are you lying?

Seriously…..can you just stop being so antagonistic.
Multiple people have asked you to stop or take it down a notch.

#3165 42 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Riddle me this. Did you read all 20,000+ posts before Yelo bought your machine for you? Did you have any idea what a shit show it was, yet still allowed Yelo to once again use clout(and your cash) to try and jump ahead in line by fully paying? What's it like to lose 10gs when you have years of reality staring you in the face. Are you and Yelo still friends?

Blah blah blah.
I stopped reading after riddle me this.
Nobody listens to your garbage anymore………..Nobody.

#3167 42 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

No you didn't.
And no you didn't read these 20,000 posts.
Maybe still friends. Thanks for the response!

Didn’t read one word.

#3169 42 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

You are welcome. Glad you agree people need to be warned.

Again. Didn’t read a word. Blah blah blah.

#3171 42 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Please don't take after Yelo. He lies. You read at least 1 word.
Anyhow, what's it like losing 10gs on this? Gotta hurt?

Are you still talking? It might be more productive to communicate elsewhere. Again, nobody is listening.

#3173 42 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

You are. How was your weekend? Get any over time in to keep the wife happy, after losing 10gs?


#3191 38 days ago
Quoted from hank527:

I’d like to know as well as I want a premium or want to trade for one.

Aren’t Premiums coming out in December?

#3211 32 days ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

So can we get a recap of cards to purchase pins on in the future?
AMEX refunds
B of A Doesn’t


#3228 26 days ago

Pinside is a terrific place to communicate with other pinball people. Absolutely love it…..even the people I disagree with.
However, certain topics really flare up strong opinions and disagreements beyond the norm imho.
It’s all good though and still better than talking about work!!!

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