i couldn't disagree more. Led Zeppelin is considered the greatest rock n roll band in history and somehow you think people will lose more money on that game more so than a game only 100 or fewer people want to buy? Strange! LZ LE sell out in minutes, and you think somehow RAZA a game with no connection to a legendary rock band who's sold over 200 million records will beat out LZ in the long run. You know there are hundreds of titles from the 90's that you can snag for 2k to 4k, titles with no connection to a film or band like raza. How is it that you have a crystal ball to see this RAZA game won't fall into the same boat 10 years from now? Not one single person even knows if this company will be in business for the long run no one knows. Oktoberfest has sold about 200 copies or so but do you see the value of that game flying thru the roof? Just because something is rare doesn't mean it will be valuable.

Long after every band member of LZ is gone people will continue to celebrate them, and collect everything they can get their hands on. My post doesn't mean any disrespect to RAZA but c'mon what you said is complete disrespect for a legendary rock band or TNMT with millions of fans, or Stranger Things streaming's biggest hit ever. People might forget about Stranger Things 10 years from now but LZ no way in hell!

Tell all the KISS fans who snatched up basically every single KISS LE ... those people wouldn't sell you their KISS LE for any price. All the people who snatched up LZ LE on the first day, many being hard core LZ fans those games will never be re-sold.

The long term jury is still out on titles like Black Knight Swords of Rage to TNA to yes RAZA. Time will tell but don't compare a game that hasn't even been shipped with no single connection to any IP to Led Zep c'mon man. That just isn't being real.

Just for the record I'm not some major LZ fan, I'm just calling it honestly. IF LZ went back out on tour the tickets would sell for over 1000 each and might go as high as 5000 or 10k in the after market. The fans of LZ will buy those games and keep them forever and will constantly seek them out for decades. RAZA 10 years from now who knows that is just being honest. Get excited about your new game but also try to keep it real.

pinball isn't an investment its silly to think it is... every time you buy a game people expect to lose some money upon resale. In the rare occasions like JJP Pirates they skyrocket. We also see where Cactus Canyons got up to 20k now they're back down to the 10k range because of Chicago Gaming new machine coming soon. Big Lebowski was hitting legendary numbers now they're worth about what you paid.

You don't buy pinball hoping to hit it big like a stock no one does. That isn't the point. Furthermore its an insult to anyone's intelligence comparing a fringe 60's TV show that honestly never should have been made to a legendary Rock Band whos sold over 200 million records and are consistently ranked the greatest rock band in history. That just isn't a fair comparison.

LOL.

Led Zep is on GOD LEVEL for many people, I doubt Munsters is all that memorable for most. Universal has owned that IP and in 40 years never made a movie out of it that should tell you something. Stern shouldn't have ever made that title when they could have made Beetlejuice. Just saying.

Led Zep is on GOD LEVEL for many people, I doubt Munsters is all that memorable for most. Universal has owned that IP and in 40 years never made a movie out of it that should tell you something. Stern shouldn't have ever made that title when they could have made Beetlejuice. Just saying.

If you want my honest opinion i think Stern was thinking Adams Family when they decided on Munsters. Both are horror tv comedy from the same period I wonder if you can strike lightening twice. The difference is Adams Family was based on a movie and Munsters the TV Show that hardly anyone remembers. In the 1990's that pinball came out with the movie, this Munsters came out 50 years after a black and white TV Show.

You know what I find strange, people have been burned so many times by fringe pinball companies, why would you pay fifty cents towards a deposit?

Its a serious question!!! You're giving this money directly to the company how many times in the past has this worked out? I've been in business a long time and I don't pay for something that isn't ready for delivery upon payment.

If Deeproot is backed by this guy with all this money why does he need a big deposit why not 100 dollars? Who wants to pay 2k then wait for 2 years to get it? Maybe it doesn't take 2 years maybe it takes 2 months, 10 months whatever... you're dealing with a company that has never delivered a single pinball game to customers and you're giving them money in advance.

The safest path to me is pay for them when you can ship them or buy them from a distributor who has them on their shelf. I do hope everyone gets their pinball games, with no issues, and loves them. With that being said seems like there has been enough burned pinball buying stories to keep people going down that rabbit hole again.

I'll bet you everything you own (LOL) that RAZA will not be worth a LZ LE 5 years from now. NO WAY JOSE! It doesn't matter if LZ is a good pinball game or not its the THEME! After 50 years they get a pinball game with their music and you think somehow LZ fans will sell those games? How often do you see Kiss LE games for sale almost NEVER because Kiss fans have them. Once those games end up in a KISS collection they never leave.

RAZA is a concept game right now because they've never manufactured a game in their life. When you spend years and millions developing a game for and never produce anything then when you finally do you're only selling 100 copies tell me how does that company stay in business? That is a serious question. There is no line out the door to buy this game the same as for Oktoberfest.

If anyone is buying the game because they think it will be rare therefore valuable you might be sadly mistaken.

At the end of the day only time will tell. So we'll have to get a lot older to find out who's right but i'll bet on the legendary rock band all day long.

This company has been saying for how many years they're just around the corner. I think its fair to say you might hear the same thing about the manufacturing. They're only producing 100 for sure manageable but that means the owner of this company will be losing tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even your ego and pride at some point has to realize when it doesn't make sense.

I can only imagine how much money these people has sunk into this company and how much more to actually make these 100 machines. I just don't see how this company will stay in business no matter how much money you shovel in.

Just me... keep your deposit until they have games in the box ready to ship.

There is no hate spin... i'm just keeping it real this game will never be worth more than LZ that just isn't going to happen. This game is for hard core pinball collectors and outside of that group the general public will never have heard of the thing. That's a fact. I think its also fair to question if this company will last, if you should pay a deposit, how long it will take them to supply the games to your door, what kind of tech support they will have , etc.

I don't hate deep root I just hate the fact that so many people have been burned countless times from fringe pinball companies. This company here hired a guy with a track record of it so sorry if you think this is hate spin its not.

What is hate spin is for you to live in some sort of fantasy world where you think RAZA will be worth more than the biggest rock n roll band's pinball game... you'd have to be living in a fantasy world to believe that. LZ fans around the World will see to it. Guns N Roses fans have already dictated the price of the CE from JJP 20k plus. You'd have to be living on planet raza to think that is going to happen. LOL I love you ... you know that but we have to get on the same planet here.

agreed. buy the game because you want it not because you think it will be worth something later. btw i'm not a huge lz fan not at all... but they're more or less ranked the greatest rock band. personally i think guns n roses is better for pinball than LZ but it still works. its about the fans of the theme and there will be many.

You're 110% correct. Pinball is a manufacturing business. How many pinball games has deeproot manufactured and shipped so far? Anyone know?

I don't agree with that statement. Do you think any manufacturing company in history said lets get some orders then we'll build the plant? Building and setting up a plant can take years up to a decade to set up to manufacture something. Taking orders before setting up your systems is the same as putting the cart before the horse. Lets see... take orders then figure out later how to build it? That is crazy. A comment like that reminds me of those sites where someone has a good idea then you give them money to help them figure it out. LOL

With all that being said I think Big Papa is an amazing pinball designer, despite screwing all those people years ago. I think it was smart for Deeproot to hire someone with real sold pinball knowledge. Everything Papa does is different and creative. I love the artwork on every Papa game including this one.

Art is a big reason why you're attracted to a game... this game has amazing artwork. With that being said I don't trust these fringe pinball companies, giving them thousands of dollars because history tells me NOT to do that.

We'll see how it all works out.

Its a forum if you don't like something don't read it. Pretty simple. When people make comments like you gotta get orders before you figure out the HARDEST part of pinball... well I thought I would add some 'wisdom'. You know better than that c'mon. I can't wait to see how it goes and for the record I seriously HOPE it turns out awesome for you and everyone else. I don't want to see anymore people burned by fringe pinball companies.

We've seen this time and time again and here is hoping that doesn't happen again not from Deeproot or any other startup pinball company. I'd love to see Deeproot make it past the first one and then build Goonies... what a cool theme for pinball.

Cheers!

Yes I'm coming to your PINBALL CRIB... your collection is just out of this world which explains why you would want this game. You have some very rare pinball games and when its all said and done this game will be rare with less than 200 sold. With that being said my intent is NOT to beat anyone over the head, its to remind people this company I wouldn't trust at least not yet. They've proven nothing but it takes them multiple years to develop one single game. Manufacturing is the hard part we all know that, designing the pinball is the easier part. This is why I give a lot of credit to American Pinball they figure out the manufacturing, they just need a HIT to produce. Deeproot has bragged and bragged and bragged and produced nothing. Hey I'll believe it when I see it but honestly I don't want ANYONE to get hurt on this and I'm hoping for the best here for everyone.

Hopefully you see how this could end up being the next Aliens or Big Lebowski. The very guy who designed this game did the same thing with his magic girl. When these things happen you know who it really hurts future start ups because they're even given a chance out of fear the same thing will happen again.

I'm not against Deeproot, I'm SHOCKED they're asking for a $2000 deposit why not $500? Why not $1000? Why $2000?

Good luck and like I said the artwork is great. I'm not a fan of the floating head but overall the artwork looks cool. My fear is the future of this company.

Let me know if you get your game.

Does anyone know the details about Robert Muller promising to pay back coin taker $107,000 for cash given to Papa for this very game and getting screwed. Robert Muller supposedly promised to pay them back that debt now refusing. Is this true?. Here is what I find odd, kudos to Pinball Brothers for saying they’re going to try and make good on Alien customers who got screwed. Kudos to the the team behind Big Lebowski for doing all they’re doing to make good on those games to the people who got screwed. Why is it that Deeproot is going to take over a game like those other new companies and they won’t make good to a company like Coin Taker??

If Robert didn’t want to have ANYTHING to do with those debts why didn’t he just build his own game from scratch rather than taking a game that owes people and business six figures plus? Can anyone shed some light on that then explain how that is ethical. Hey these are some of the reasons why I doubt this company is either going to build these games, or run their business ethically. I think these are fair comments.

But again GOOD luck to EVERYONE but I personally wouldn’t DONATE money on an assumption you may or may not get your game. I really hope Deeproot pays back coin taker and every single buyer who got screwed by Papa deals. I really do hope they go on to produce amazing games and deliver but after they pay back every debt associated with RAZA. If you want respect you must earn it not demand it or assume it.

Maybe Deeproot can come on this very thread and explain their debt to Coin Taker and explain why they will or won’t pay them back that debt. So if they won’t pay back Coin Taker who’s to say they’ll pay back anyone else. For these reasons I won’t give them a red cent unless the owner can come on here and explain why he won’t pay back every single person and company who invested in this game the first time around.

Let’s see some pics of RAZA in your game room! What will be the ETA for that photo predict the year, month, decade and century. Let see who gets the closest.

I have a serious question for you guys who ordered.

If you pay 13k for the LE version do you get a letter of authenticity signed by Robert Muller? Is that a perk for ordering that version because that might put me over the edge and go for it.

Okay now you got me thinking ... alright Robert if you're watching this thread I'm down for a RAZA if you and Big Papa will both sign it (actually ships by March 2021)

Robert can take a photo of me handing him $13,000 one dollar bills and post it right here!!!! Make it rain baby!

LOL

In a past life you might have been a kamikaze pilot... fly that plane right thru a hail of bullets to reach the target. What I mean is you're totally fearless my man! Love it! Maybe 1 out of 100 Kamikaze hit their target but no matter its the fearless nature that counts. Send me those gameroom pics in March.

Like I said the artwork is badass!!! Can't wait to see it in action!

Do i get an invite to play? Please! I’ll bring my rising sun bandana. LOL

Let me see if I got this straight... this game has essentially been in production one way or another for what now an eternity and the new excuse is weather? Oh wait I'm sorry the real excuse is the UL approval... couldn't you have gotten that like 9 years ago or 8 or whatever. I guess the weather caused the delay. One day this games will be arriving at your home after the weather issue passes, the ul approval is cleared, and after they redesign something on the game for the 1 million time. Oh and if they ever figure out how to set up an assembly line. Its all going to fall into place one day.

The question is will anyone on this board be alive to see it happen?

Stern made 100 new in box pinball games yesterday, yeah in one day. Months and months after Deeproot took orders for 100 games TOTAL I'm just wondering does ANYONE have their game yet?

Just a suggestion to Robert... check out that video with Jack Danger Sterns behind the scenes "HOW STERN MAKES GAMES". Maybe you'll at least get the basics down I mean it can't hurt right? You could watch that video while you continue to apply for UL approval.

I guessing your game won't be made prior to Chicago Expo, so why not pre-buy Stern factory tour experience. At this point NOTHING can hurt.

I was being totally serious. I have to admit I learned a lot about how Stern builds pinball machines. That was an incredible video about Stern. I was super impressed by the process. After seeing it I realized just how hard it really is to build one of these things. Kaneda for example keeps saying for JJP to hire more people... its not that easy. Building pinball machines is simply NOT easy.

But Deeproot knew that otherwise why would they take your money. I do give credit where credit is due, designing and building the prototype is hard but not that hard... the hard part is manufacturing.

It’s NOT easy.