Can anybody talk about the extras they added to their Arcade Editions? I'm trying to keep this thing on a budget and not blow up the price to a crazy amount. This is how I'm thinking of kitting mine out. What did everyone else do for theirs?

Trim & Legs: Stainless
Coin Door: Black
PinBar Screen Protector: none
Rings: Standard
Shaker Motor: None
Toys: Upgraded Toy Package (+$125)
GI Lighting: Installed (+120)
Glass: Standard
Topper: Standard Topper (+$300)
Standard PinKit Care Package: None
Support Package: Standard
Warranty Package: Standard
Shipping Container: Normal Box

Subtotal came to $6440. I'm questioning whether I really need the GI Lighting / Pinstadiums, as I generally play in a well-lit room, but the cost for them isn't too much really compared to actual pinstadiums. I opted not to get the neon rubbers, as I could always add them in later myself if I really felt like it. I also didn't add a shaker, as I don't care for them a whole lot to be worth the extra $100 to me.

I'm still debating whether to pull the trigger or not, as I'm also tempted to go in on an Alien instead, or try to wait for CGC's next game or for CGC to run some more MM SE's. And I'm also instead thinking about holding out for a nice used Wonka LE or a maybe even a Ghostbusters. Too many options on the table right now. It's a good time for Pinball I think!

Does anyone know how easy or hard it will be to change the glass on Raza? I've all ready got Invisiglass, so it seemed redundant to order RAZA with it, since i could just use my own, but now I'm wondering if it might be difficult to swap the glass?

Another question, does anyone know the dimensions of RAZA? Specifically, how wide is the backbox? I've got some narrow doorways, and a lot of times I end up having to unhinge backboxes to bring them in/out. New Sterns are narrow enough that I'm fine, but I wasn't sure if anyone knew how wide RAZA's are?

Yeah, I just wondered what the actual dimensions were, since the DR backbox is a different shape than a Bally/Williams. Although, it's still generally square I suppose.

I nearly pre-ordered a RAZA, but decided to wait for a different DR game. The features of the platform excited me, but the actual game...not so much. I hope that we actually get more games from DR, and that we get them in a timely fashion. Their current track-record is terrible, and I don't understand how they are keeping the doors open. The revenue from 160 games sold won't come close to making the company financially viable. Especially, when you consider that DR probably doesn't even really know how much it will cost them to make each game.

I'd love to see DR's next game, but I'm honestly afraid that may be another year or more away.

How could anyone be confident that DR won't at least ship some Razas? By all accounts they are near the finish line. And no one but DR employees and insiders really knows what's going on in there. Even Steve Bowden, who works there, made it sound like he had no clue when Raza would ship.

A better bet would be will DR make any games after Raza? Or will their next game be out by the end of 2021. Those are bets ICE would get takers on.

Yeah, June sounds like a fair estimate to me. It's been a looooong wait. I'm getting anxious to actually see games go out the door.

Well, it feels like a long wait since deeproot started. And I keep expecting them to be almost ready to ship, and then months more go by. So it feels like a long wait to me.

Also, I firmly believe that RAZA wasn't supposed to ship with the Pinbar, and instead the Pinbar would've debuted on a subsequent game. I think RM decided to add it once the pandemic hit. It's the only way that I can explain the huge delay between last March's TPF "5 days" event and last Fall's failed event.

Yikes! Who bit your butt?!

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Let's see...

Haggis has actually shipped games to customers. Damien (the owner) has garnered a lot of goodwill and positive feelings due to his enthusiastic personality. They've seemingly cracked the code on how to make dimple-free playfields that are good-looking (no orange peel). They haven't tried to totally reinvent the wheel with Fathom (just incremental improvements). And, they haven't repeatedly trashed their competitors.

Hmm...none of those things can said of deeproot. So I'd say it's unlikely Haggis will take the same heat as RM/deeproot.

Just remember, limited doesn't automatically make a pin valuable or desirable. Only 150 America's Most Haunted were made, and they are frequently bought and sold for under $5k.

We have one on location here, and it's always down for one reason or another. Mostly minor stuff, but it adds up. Don't think the early Spookys are particularly robust machines.

The RZ is at The Bonus Round bar in downtown Sioux Falls.

Ain't no owners here. Maybe someday...

Cool. Any idea of when?

I nearly went in on a RAZA, got as far as the cart before changing my mind. So serious question to those that did go in, what do you think of this lengthy delay, and especially what do you all think of Robert?

To me, Robert seems to be either a liar or grossly incompetent:

1) Robert said that this wasn't a pre-order, and yet after 7 months games still haven't shipped. So I'd say by any definition, this IS a pre-order.

2) Robert said that Deeproot's money was HIS money, and yet he's taken over a million dollars in PPP loans. So clearly that statement is also false.

While I do appreciate that deeproot gave refunds, I'm very concerned that Robert is the one making the decisions, given just a small sample of his track record. So I'd love to know if you guys share these concerns or what?

It's not about liking or not liking the man, its about trusting his decision-making and his planning abilities. He's the owner/founder and he seems to be the one calling all the shots for deeproot. The company will live and die by calls that he makes. So it matters quite a bit if he's naive, or a liar, or incompetent.

I never criticized dr for taking PPP loans, I get that it was a business decision. Same as taking all the tax breaks you can. The point was that taking the PPP loan went against Robert's previous statements on the company's finances.

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So far, all I'm getting is that the wait doesn't bother you guys at all. That Robert's abilities and honesty don't matter at all either. All that matters is that someday you get RAZA, which you're confident that you will, for some reason. And that apparently longterm parts support doesn't concern you at all? Deeproot Pinball has to exist in order for you to get parts and technical support. Unless of course RAZA will magically be the only pinball machine in history to never have any bespoke parts break or wear out. Just ask Alien 1.0 owners what happens when the company that made your super limited game goes under and things start breaking.

What about UL certification? We don't know whether or not that is still an issue too.

Well, deeproot set the expectations that games would begin shipping in Feb/Mar. So if anyone had expectations of getting their games by now, then it was because they trusted what Robert Mueller said.

You apparently expected DR to be very late on their promised delivery dates. Which makes one wonder why you'd get into bed with a company that you know had such gross misconceptions of their own abilities and of the realities of pinball manufacturing.

But I suppose, like many have said, it's a relatively small gamble if you're only in on a deposit.

You the man Ice! Our eyes on the ground!

You keep saying Yelobird that you only care about eventually getting the game, and that none of the other stuff matters. Except that it's not enough to just get the game, you need to be able to get spare parts when stuff breaks. You need to be able to get technical support, especially with a brand new platform. And so deeproot pinball needs to still exist to get that stuff.

Just talk to Heighway Alien owners about what happens when the boutique manufacturer of your bespoke game goes belly up.

Well, fair enough if that works for you. I know there will be many that won't have that same comfort level.

I'm wondering about their boardset. Do we know what they are using? All the old pins used very simple boards with easily replaced through-hole components. I feel like a lot of modern boardsets aren't as easily repairable. Especially when so many companies don't include proper schematics.

But he DID delay an update DS_Nadine--Robert said after the 4th of July holiday he'd give an update. That was two weeks ago now. I feel like it's disingenuous to pretend that we're still in "after-the-holiday-weekend" territory here. It's obvious this is another missed deadline from Robert (albeit a minor one). Unless we're no longer supposed to take Robert's statements at face value?

I don't know why Robert even bothers to put dates on things, it just gives him another timeline to miss. And sure, the follow-up email did say an update would be coming this week (no specific day), but the email also implied that an update could be even sooner. Which obviously didn't happen.

So while deeproot still has plenty of time to get an announcement out this week, no matter what day they release an update, it will certainly be at least a bit later than we could have expected based on Robert's last communication. Not that it really matters of course, but it is another in a long line of broken promises and missed deadlines from deeproot.

That sounds like quite the pipedream! But if the next update does include those things, then I'll happily make an extra donation to Pinside as a show of penance!

I love how asking questions and pointing out facts makes one part of the sewer. Us "sewer rats" wouldn't have any ammunition if deeproot would stop missing their own self-generated timelines, and would just get the games out the door.

Hmm...I wonder if the update will be that they've moved into a new facility?

Hey man, lighten up, you're taking this waaaay too seriously! Just laugh it all off and don't take the comments personally. Robert is the one you should be upset with. All of this is more or less his fault.

Besides, I haven't actually seen anyone calling preorder folks idiots. I've questioned your guys' confidence, and your seemingly unending patience with deeproot's delays.

I'd happily shake hands (metaphorically, at this point) with any of you in real-life. Especially Yelobird, with whom I've sparred with the most.

Tick...tick...tick...the clock is ticking down. Not much time left in the week of the 19th for an announcement.

Although, I suppose some will still try to defend and claim that the email promising this week was "not official".

Not sure what's so hard about just admitting that deeproot missed yet another deadline. It's farcical at this point.

But I guess there are still a like 7 hours left in the business day. So there's still time, I suppose.

Oh I agree, this situation is very LOL all right! But I don't think we're laughing for the same reasons. And I do have a hard time believing that at least few RAZA pre-order people aren't just a smidge bothered by the lack of communication or the continuing delays.

Part of the reason I even post here is because I was very nearly a pre-order person myself. I had the game in my cart and everything, but I decided against it at the last moment. So part of my interest is in imagining what I'd be going through if I had actually completed that order, and I certainly wouldn't be a happy camper!

Yelobird did about 3 posts up.

Sorry Iceman, I guess I was feeling a bit honery at the time and couldn't help myself. Deeproot is such a joke at this point, it's gone into parody.

And I don't need anyone to say anything. Watching this whole fiasco play out is just as interesting as watching a TV show. Plus, we've got a new puppy in the house, so I'm stuck outside in the yard waiting for him to go to the bathroom quite often. So perusing Pinside helps pass the time.

Ha, oops! Ornery isn't a word I spell too often.

It's funny, cuz preorder folks COULD open a private FB group, but there'd be nothing to talk about. The group would be pretty quiet until the next update. And who knows how long till the next one.

Couldn't help myself Yelobird, you make the perfect "This Is Fine" meme example. All in good fun!

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All we've got now is memes and lols.

And nothing personal, but the "This is fine" meme just always pops into my head when we get more bad news and you make a point of saying how much you don't mind.

But like I said, it's all good. I only have bad feelings towards Robert and whoever else is running the show over there.

unnamed (resized).jpg

And if you've been following the thread, then you know my meme was on point!

Hey Yelobird, is it really true that you're on the hook for two paid-in-full XTRA editions? By the way you've been talking this whole time, I assumed that you were just down for a deposit.

Man, you'd have to be a really wealthy guy to not sweat the thought of losing 20 grand to deeproot.

Okay, the rumor is you paid-in-full for 2 games. And there's even a screenshot of a supposed quote of you saying as much. Guess people are getting overexcited and just making stuff up at this point.

Huh? You're a confusing dude. I just asked if you really paid for two games in full, cuz I found that surprising/ballsy, if true.

But apparently you didn't, I guess? I don't know. Your posts are contradictory. Obviously, what you choose to share on Pinside is your business, but I find it very strange that you'd be posting that you paid for games when you didn't. Doesn't compute. I guess I should just take whatever you say with a grain of salt going forward?

I don't know what's happening, but this thread has taken a very weird turn.

Plenty of other great threads on Pinside. Lots of positive, helpful, and informative ones.

Again you guys put the blame on Pinsiders. The blame should be on Robert and deeproot missing all their deadlines and failing to provide substantive updates. That's the actual problem; the negative comments are just a symptom.

This thread was pretty quiet, and mostly just actual preorder folks for a long time. It started getting active again after Robert missed the last deadline, and then really picked up following the latest communication.

They might if deeproot paid for their relocation expenses, and if Robert promised the paychecks were just around the corner.

Couldn't age any worse than Robert's many ridiculous public comments.

Still...anything could happen. I hope you get your games. You've got a real optimistic attitude. Although optimism in the face of mounting evidence can start to seem like delusion.

Hey Ice, I always enjoy your posts here--I rank you up there with Odin and vid1900. I only used you as an example, nothing personal. But let's get real here--anyone could have made a guess that Alien would have been remade at some point. It was a highly desirable title that ended way before it's time. It doesn't take a Nostradamus to make that guess.

However, last time I checked, didn't you guarantee that Alien would start shipping again by the end of 2019? And Alien didn't start start shipping again until Spring/Summer 2021. So yeah, I call BS on your insider information on that one. Is it possible that you were basing everything off what known liar and scammer Jonathan Demare was telling you?

Either way, my point was that if there was any new and important information pertaining to the pre-order buyers, it would get out. That's all.

Hard to say how fun RAZA will actually be to play. According to Cary Hardy it wasn't that fun...but everyone has different tastes when it comes to pinball. And deeproot certainly has had the time to tweak the game for the better since last Fall.

Yep, no shortage of comments that haven't/won't age well around here.

You gotta admit, functionalty-aside, that original Houdini LOOKS amazing aesetically.

Ouch, forgot about this one.

Ha, Klank didn't seem to be taking it in stride with that one.

I brought it up again because it was a dickish post and attitude. He was super self-righteous and as it turns out, completely wrong.

So yeah, not very mature of me I suppose, but I hate it when people shout aggressively at others online. Especially, when the person they're shouting at is actually right.

It definitely sucks that people lost money on this deal. A LOT of people as it turns out. And it's super gross what Robert was doing with investor money. Talk about no class.

Look, it's all good. All I originally posted was "Ouch", and only after someone else dug up your post from a little while back. I didn't go hunting for it. Then Iceman played white knight, which prompted me to elaborate. I think most would agree in hindsight that it was an "ouch" statement!

You call it rubbing people's faces in it, I call it accountability. People should be responsible for what they say, even online. I've certainly written things online that I regret, and when someone else brought it up (even in a positive way), it made me cringe and I vowed to be more careful. My wife has a personal rule of only writing positive, or at least informative, comments online. I'm not there yet, but it's a good goal.

My "skin in the game" is that I was almost a RAZA buyer. My wife and I watched the reveal videos, and talked about whether we should go in on one. Her reaction was that RAZA was too many themes in one, and it didn't really interest her. So her reaction, combined with my realization that what I like about RAZA was the innovation, not the actual game, led me to end up not ordering. If you look back to my first post in this thread, it was asking other pre-order people which version they were going for. I was very nearly taken in by this scam. So yeah, my "skin-in-the-game" is that I was nearly one of you, and it pisses me off to think I was nearly a victim too. And so every delay and crappy excuse and setback from deeproot/RM hits me almost as if I was a pre-order buyer.

BTW, I'm in on a Fathom too! Go figure!

I'm afraid that you're behind the times. That used to be true, but it's been almost a year since you could by newish Stern Pros for that kind of money.

I know, because that was always my strategy. Bought a barely used SW Comic Pro for $4900. Bought a barely used Elvira Prem. for $7k. Those days are gone...at least for now.

LOL. True. The clip mods are often touted as being easily reversible, but desoldering a wire isn't really here hard thing.

But I get it. It certainly is easier to just clip on. And it's generally fine as long as the game is stationary, and doesn't have a shaker!

Well, the thing is, a lot of these scammers are good at convincing people that everything is fine. Especially over the phone. That's one of their tricks.

People always came away feeling great after talking to Andrew Heighwey.

Ah, this old trope again. If new people don't keep buying TBLs, then old buyers won't get their games. Now I'm not current in whether Dutch is still actually making the Early Adopters whole or not. But that's the theory anyway. So don't make new buyers feel bad.

Well, Levi wasn't exactly wrong. Pinball Bros. is still kinda the same company. Same dudes running the show, minus Andrew plus some Italians.