(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

11 months ago

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Topic Stats

  • 3,298 posts
  • 253 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 days ago by jeffspinballpalace
  • Topic is favorited by 89 Pinsiders


Topic poll

“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
  • Xtra 25 votes

(52 votes)

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Topic index (key posts)

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Post #2440 Link to SEC filings story. Posted by BMore-Pinball (3 months ago)

Post #2468 Story of SEC indictment Posted by DakotaMike (3 months ago)

Post #2527 DR never owned the Zidware entity per report. Posted by wcbrandes (3 months ago)

Post #2676 Summary of DR outlandish things. Posted by TheFamilyArcade (3 months ago)

Post #2864 Charging back a RAZA preorder Posted by Mr68 (3 months ago)

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#2227 3 months ago
Quoted from Biv:

If you can buy the assets without any liabilities whatsoever, then why not? Most likely the RAZA game is closer to being ready to ship, than everything a new startup has already in their pocket.

This may be the funniest post I've ever read. Anywhere.

#2232 3 months ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

You guys are a laugh. People hate JPOP I get it. But someone will step up when the dust settles to roll the dice on what they either did or did not do all these years. .

I will bet whatever is left of the very large bottle you are drinking that you are wrong.

#2286 3 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Think a Motley Creu pinball would sell? Serious question.
Real pinball companies always on the lookout for new themes.

Music pins always sell. That’s why they keep making them.

I always thought the crue sucked monkey ass so not for me, but there’s tons of other 40-60 year old dudes who would be happy to take my place in line.

#2364 3 months ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

Any word when RAZAs will be released? I thought it was supposed to be earlier this year?

Is there something in the water?

I hope not. Because we are drinking the same water.

#2369 3 months ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

Most likely - it's troll water.

I thought it might be from the moat!

#2416 3 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Surely no employees means these are being built, right?

I think it’s like the end of Gung Ho where management bravely assembles product by hand, inspiring their once-demoralized workforce into joining them, triumphantly pulling victory from the jaws of defeat and competing the task seconds before the deadline, saving not only the factory but in fact the entire town!!!

#2469 3 months ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Posting this here for any preorder folks that didn't see it yet. No longer just rumors and hearsay now.

So you’re saying there’s a chance gif

#2482 3 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Well, that got old quickly…
I still think RM believed his own words, wanted to make himself some pinball and own shitloads of money as a side effect. Since, you know, pinball is easy. - And why wait and not spend that money right now, when you know you‘ll ship more games then anyone else!?
It‘s srsly sad, since there was actually a lot of creative investment there. I hope not all will be lost.

He never intended to produce pinball machines. It was always a scam. If anything, the incompetence we saw at every turn - the horrible layout, the stupid malfunctioning pinbar, the pinpod that won’t fit through your door - all that stuff was probably More of a feature than a bug.

Ever seen “The Producers?”

The game, and everything about this project, was so awful it seemed like it was DESIGNED to fail.

Well, maybe it actually was!

#2609 3 months ago

Why are people “taking a chance” or “rolling the dice!” On whether or not a pinball machine gets made and they get anything besides a bad story for their money?

This shit has got to stop, and that attitude has got to be buried forever.

Buy pinball machines that exist, from companies that won’t steal your money. It’s so simple! And you have so many options in 2021, it’s not like 1999 when it was Striker Extreme or bust.

Stop lusting after fantasy when you can settle for reality. It’s a choice we all make many times a day about everything in life. It’s not as exciting, but it makes a lot more sense, and you’ll sleep better at night.

#2614 3 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Time to close this thread down - no more Pre-order.
Time to send a note to Pinsider moderators.

Well, the pre-orders still exist.

#2692 3 months ago

I sense a “why do you guys want RM in jail?! How is that gonna help us get out games!” Post a brewin’.

I remember that was the Predator “owner” sentiment for a while.

#2694 3 months ago
Quoted from bigehrl:

Maybe the SEC reads Pinside and will chime in on that thread. Because, as it turns out, they're the primary group that wants him in jail.

Well when are they planning to pinch this asshole?

I gotta think he’s a pretty big flight risk. Lock down the hydrofoils!!

#2710 3 months ago
Quoted from NoMonkey:

Or call it being an egomaniacal douche.

You say Potato, I say Potaaato....

#2714 3 months ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

Guessing he will meet his fourth wife in prison while he's trying to figure out where he went wrong!

I don’t think that kind of shit happens where he’s going. He may want to brush up on his tennis game though.

#2751 3 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

The odds are much better on literally anything in Vegas, and the returns are probably greater. This was pure madeness to "gamble" on. The whole rolling the dice thing is such a sad cope.

Right. The implication is that somehow it was "worth the thrill."

We ALL took the same high-adrenaline thrill ride. Some of us just got on the ride for free while others spent thousands of dollars.

#2780 3 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

His opening proposition of how many games he would build never made sense from day 1 (being a business- not just a homebrew guy). It’s like the 750k/m burn rate moment for deeproot. It made no sense what so ever to make a viable business — yet people refuse to face simple maths that show the story was untenable.
People need to stop burying basic maths about business plans simply because they really want to believe and think ‘this guy is different!’
Everyone has bills to pay… and the money isn’t free. That doesn’t change because they have a cool idea…. The maths need to work or the course is set.

Yeah but the "needle-mover" is that his guy was "rich." "Rich" trumps logic for many, many people, which we've seen over and over again over the last few years.

The fact that he could be a fraud, that math still applies, that the rules of science still apply does not seem to enter into anybody's mind.

"This guy is rich!!! Of course this pinball company that makes ridiculous promises and can't possibly survive at the rate it's going mathmatically will be a success!!"

#2807 3 months ago
Quoted from hank527:

Why? He was vocal at convincing others to support Deeproot. I like him as a person though his views were way skewed and he shares some responsibility in this mess.

I don’t think anybody who ordered a RAZA this time around has anybody to blame but themselves. I mean most of the buyers were pretty clear they knew they were “rolling the dice” and strapping in for the ride. I don’t remember any evangelicals this time around trying to talk anyone else into taking the plunge.

And even if there were there were a chorus of “are you nuts?!?!” Ringing throughout the land when deep root finally started asking for money.

#2815 3 months ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

I'm afraid that you're behind the times. That used to be true, but it's been almost a year since you could by newish Stern Pros for that kind of money.
I know, because that was always my strategy. Bought a barely used SW Comic Pro for $4900. Bought a barely used Elvira Prem. for $7k. Those days are gone...at least for now.

Yeah buy HUO save a couple hundred bucks these days. If you are lucky enough that the original owner didn’t pack the game with alligator clip garbage they expect you to pay for.

#2875 3 months ago
Quoted from frankmac:

. (Supposedly this etching machine is in the factory)


The ease with which these pinball con men can lie to their marks borders on the sociopathic. We've seen it so many times now.

It really is such a thin line. It's so EASY to be a fuckin criminal and steal people's money. I've done ok in this hobby, but I can't help but wonder how much more wealth I would have acquired if I was just willing to lie to everybody, all of the time.

#2891 3 months ago

Buying a pinball machine isn’t supposed to be “a bet.”

I just don’t get this mentality. It promotes the continued creation of these unending pinball scams.

Glad you got your money back at least. I wonder if the elderly investors charged their $58 million via Amex.

#2896 3 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

The main takeaway from Yelobird's post for me is that AMEX kicks ass.

Wonder if anybody who paid with a lowly Visa card was able to claw back their “lottery ticket.”

#2905 3 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

genuinely happy for you. Also the more pinball people that can claw their funds back the better.


Pinball was such an ancillary con here, and such a tiny drop in the bucket. I mean, it seriously seemed like Mueller was doing everything he could to DISCOURAGE people from buying into RAZA. The disastrous September launch (no Tex Mex buffet!), followed by the 20 day ordering window with the ridiculous NDA and waiver of refund in December. Plus, he tried to convince the remaining die hards to take refunds just a month or so ago. I don't think he really wanted to get any deeper into this pinball scam, he had bigger fish to fry and a bigger mess to clean up behind him. By this point, we are just a tiny footnote and afterthought.

Maybe I'm getting the timeline jumbled, but based on the Chernobyl photos we saw with the calendars and countdown clocks frozen in time, was the "RAZA FOMO" window in December happening when the Deep Root offices were already completely closed and no employees at all - whether "famous pinball designers" or lowly janitor - were still parking their cars in the lot?

#2981 3 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

As much as I'm not in love with the companies that ARE manufacturing games, issues and all, at least those companies have and will continue to deliver.


Fantasy is always more exciting than reality. But at least with reality you won’t get your money stolen and you’ll actually receive a game.

I think I remember saying this a few dozen times over the past few years...

#2986 3 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

The “woke” culture has come to Pinside!
I’m just joking……or am I. Get a grip people.

I'm gonna go with "or am I." Jokes are supposed to be funny.

#3029 89 days ago

It’s pretty fucked up. They obviously have very little incentive to give games to the people they screwed 5 years ago so here we are.

Just another ongoing pinball scam. We can’t get enough, can we?

#3098 88 days ago
Quoted from bmegar:I put the deposit down when deeproot was taking preorders.I used a credit card.So even after 8 months I can still get a refund?

Why are you asking us?

Call your credit card company.

#3104 88 days ago

This whole "people getting their money back from the credit card company" thing is kind of a shocking epilogue to this tale, one I wish had happened a little earlier as I did a podcast last week recounting my take on this entire sordid odyssey.

Has there ever been a similar pinball scam where the pinball victims actually got their money back?

I wonder if Deep Root even notices. It just doesn't seem like scamming pinball people was ever the objective here. Seems like Mueller would have been happy to get you all your pins even if it meant stealing more money from old ladies.

#3109 88 days ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I wasn't aware you were doing podcasts. Got a link?

Friend of mine does a gamer-related podcast, the JPop special ain’t out yet. I think it’s aimed at people who have never really heard anything about this so far. I’ll post a link when it’s out.

#3118 88 days ago

Yeah enough pinball scam refunds and I wonder if the credit card industry will sour on this whole pinball business.

It’s obviously high risk considering the staggering percentage of the business that is “like buying a lottery ticket!” Rather than just a consumer product.

Last I checked you can’t buy lottery tickets with a credit card.

#3136 86 days ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Well, Levi wasn't exactly wrong. Pinball Bros. is still kinda the same company. Same dudes running the show, minus Andrew plus some Italians.

Precisely. Ice was conned into believing CGC was remaking it from the ASOA scam, and he told EVERYBODY this was happening right around the corner with intense conviction, including sending me several terse drunken PMs to this effect. Even convinced Kaneda, who made the famous "Ass tattoo" bet to his legions of passionate followers, promising a Hilton buttcheek tat that I was making fun of and none of you hatin' buffoons apparently remember.

I was 100 percent correct that no different existing pinball company was going to be dumb enough to remake Aliens for all the reasons I stated. And of course they didn't; it was resurrected by remnants of the original cabal, and of course the game still seems to be a complete and total lemon based upon what I'm hearing, accompanied by the "who could see that coming" delays which will undoubtedly stretch into years for some lucky buyers.

So, long story short, kiss my Odin-tattooed ass! and I'll be happy to remind you I'm still the only person to actually collect on any of Ice's dumb bets, $100 worth of sweet, sweet Kentucky Bourbon, due to the fact that he was 100 percent wrong about his CGC Alien con and I was 100 percent correct.

Since some of you seem to have the memory of a goldfish, if you really want to relive the greatest hits of Pinside, here's the thread, which was originally titled "Is CGC Going to Manufacture Alien Pinball" Well, the answer of course, was no, and my posts have aged perfectly well:


#3144 86 days ago

Wait, Ice is leaving again?

Well, Happy Labor Day I guess. We will miss him. Again.

1 week later
#3195 78 days ago
Quoted from tp:Back to deeproot and Robert Mueller.
BOA and Mastercard have reversed their decision and WON'T BE refunding my money.
Lesson learned....cash is king...especially cash on the glass.
Wish I could burn deeproot also but I can't.
What's in your wallet?[quoted image]

Wow. What a Rollercoaster!

Anybody else get defeat snatched from the jaws of victory by their CC company?

3 weeks later
#3255 55 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:Ok, is the lesson learned buy with Amex versus any other credit card?

THat's like lesson 504 out of this whole thing.

The "lesson learned" is don't buy games that don't exist from companies that have produced nothing but promises and hot air.

#3263 54 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Define „non existent“.
When they opened order banks the game existed. (Well, two machines that is.)
The machines for sale were not made yet, but so is every Stern you preorder before it is at retailers.
There won‘t be any new manufacturers if they have to deliver machines to retailers before orders and money come in.

We are still playing this dumb game? Really?

A couple cobbled together prototypes does not mean a game exists, this has been proven time and time again in pinball scam after pinball scam. This was pointed out by countless people countless times during this con.

You sent these losers money and defended them for years with extreme conviction without seeing ANY evidence they could mass produce and ship a pinball machine. That was a mistake. Will you do it again sometime someone wows you with a flashy half-working prototype and 5 years worth of bullshit?

Comparing the RAZA scam to Stern "pre-order" is a pathetic rationalization and just makes it look like you haven't learned anything and are eager to get ripped off again. If you really can't understand the difference between what Deep Root was doing and what Stern does several times a year I'm hoping someone else has the keys to your bank account.

4 weeks later
#3277 24 days ago
Quoted from TicTacSeth:

If anyone hears whispers of another company going after the Goonies license for a game, and making one of their own, let me know. (I can also help get the license with WB if needed.)

I’ll be producing one in the back alley of my apartment building. Hell’s Kitchen Pinball’s The Goonies. Shipping Q2 2022.

Send money now!

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