I'm one of the Zidware people, and I'm getting ready to place my order for RAZA. Can Iceman or any of the other people that are following through from the Zidware Goodwill agreement chime in regarding the Indemnification agreement? I'd rather get a game (after all these years) than just get my deposit back (especially since I'm getting extra value), but until I have a game in hand, I'll always be nervous about this situation.

Does anything in the Indemnification agreement nullify or reduce their obligation as laid out in the Goodwill agreement? I figured the other thread was too toxic to ask this question (they'd all just call me an idiot for not requesting a check), but at the same time, I don't want an rose-colored-glasses-club-thread response either. I'm really hoping for some objective info on whether there are any risks introduced by the new agreement.

Yeah, it's RAZA or a refund check. And due to the order window, I need to make that decision without seeing if other people are getting games.

Goodwill satisfied upon expenditure of credit vs delivery of the game that credit "purchased" seems like a really shady distinction. UGH!

No, it's almost $2k more in credit than the refund check. I'm certainly not chipping in an additional $3K+ for the Xtra at this stage, even though I think it looks really cool. It's get my money back, or take a chance and get a modded Arcade that's "worth" almost $2k more than I put in all those years ago.

If I get a refund and they make the games (and they work), I'll feel like a dumb ass jumping out at the last second.
If I stay in for a game and they don't get made (or they get made but are a box of lights) then I'll feel like a huge dumb ass for not taking the hint and getting out.

Dumb if I do, dumb if I don't. I'm trending toward just leaning into it and finishing out the ride. It's just that there are so many good recent games that I would put this money straight into that makes the risk a more challenging decision.

OK...I can get the Arcade with most options ($6600) for Zidware credits + shipping, or I could get the Xtra for Zidware credits + $3K + shipping. Thoughts?

Part of me has an issue putting in any more money...for obvious reasons. However, the Xtra is much closer to what jpop sold as the RAZA vision all those years ago, and I love the color difference and lit side panels.

I'd be lying if I didn't admit there's an element of how can I come out the best in this as well. Seeing that deeproot will be selling leftover machines for $8K and $13K respectively makes me wonder if I'm leaving money on the table not going for the Xtra.

I just checked on 1 vs 2 games from Florida to Chicago a couple months ago, because I had the same memory as you. It wasn't exactly BOGO, but pretty damn close.

But why? You could add the extra GI option for $100 and it's incorporated into the game. This is literally the last game I would consider putting PS on because you can effectively get the same thing cheaper as a factory add-on.

I guess somebody had to be the guy.

I barely finished reading the email and you've already posted it online.

I'm all about objectivity, and being part of the Zidware people, I'm more jaded than most RAZA buyers. But posting this update is just feeding the trolls at this stage. But hey, RM knew someone would. Congrats on being the one I guess.

I don't think I agree with your first point. Even if they were ready to ship, that announcement would get upstaged by Spooky's double release if communicated this week. Based on that, I never expected an announcement this week no matter what. So, I'm not necessarily reading bad news as the cause for the delay.

That said, you're you're probably right regarding the content of the update. I'll be pleasantly SHOCKED if the announcement says delivery is remotely imminent.

I go into each subsequent update with a little more dread (am I gonna finally lose my money - I'm Zidware, so I've kinda already figured it was gone) mixed with a morbid curiosity over how Robert will "explain" the latest delay.

Jesus! Diving or not is not the point of his comment. The sentiment is the same...customers should not have to resort to reconnaissance missions to set their minds at ease regarding the secrecy and uncertainty around money we've spent on the company's failed promises.

I'm an original Zidware customer and I stuck in this for an Xtra, so I want this to come through literally as much or more than anyone still in on RAZA. But all you pie in the sky people are over the top. Why are there only 2 lanes here? It seems people are either in the toxic, hope everyone loses their money camp, or the Robert shits nothing but rainbows camp. I was hoping this pre-order thread would be full of more objectivity (versus blind optimism) but maybe there's too much effort spent defending against the toxicity to expect a middle ground perspective?

Anyway, I wish more people could hold onto good fortunes with one hand, and use the other hand to shield their eyes from the blinding light of hope. Calling a spade a spade shouldn't be too much to ask for. And again, this is coming from someone who is fully vested in the success of the project.

OK...hard to argue that.

At least the Zidware customers back in the day banded together with a sense of objectivity when things started obviously heading south. I'm not saying we need to form a coalition here, but when I start feeling WTF, it would be nice to know there are others to commiserate with. On the contrary, it feels like most of the current RAZA buyers would literally ride the train off the cliff before they admitted that there might be legit concerns.

What is this referring to?

I wonder this all the time about so many people around here (and basically internet forums on just about any topic). Without pointing figures at anyone in particular, some people must have incredibly pathetic and depressing lives. The constant attention paid by people regarding things they don't even like is beyond me. Whether it's ranting about a deeproot game you didn't purchase, constantly shitting on Stern/JJP/<any vendor> just so you can fan the flames, trolling / starting internet fights, or any other obsession about something you don't have any interest in - I categorically don't get it.

Hell, I get exhausted even thinking about catching up on an owners thread for a game I own (and care about), much less keeping tabs on things I don't like.

I guess I just don't understand the typical internet user mentality. I tend to live my life AVOIDING things I don't care about, if I can help it. To spend large percentages of your life spewing negativity on an internet forum just feels so sad. Why can't people find something they like and go do it! The number of people that would rather make enemies than friends baffles me. But I guess take a look at the world these days and I don't understand why I continue to be surprised.

Fair enough...

And yet, last I checked, that other thread isn't full of sympathy and well-wishes. It's full of angst and hostility. Which was the basis of my point. Why? These people HAVE to have more constructive things to do.

This was no doubt caused by the ineptitude, dishonesty, and incompetence of those you mention. But the toxicity is heavily buoyed by the vitriol of the people posting on Pinside.

In general, I agree. I've never felt their misdeeds should be swept under the rug, but after literally thousands of posts, how exactly is all the venom spewing helping anything? I have not bothered to go in the other thread in many months, but what else can there possibly be to say anymore? And this is my point. I'm in the middle of this (I have money on the line) and I have WAY better things to do than rant to a bunch of people online about what isn't happening. How can this possibly be an enjoyable endeavor for anyone, especially those who aren't directly impacted? I'll never get it.

If this really was about people wanting to help out and provide "consequences" for what's gone down, then maybe set up a picket line outside deeproot headquarters, or put up a "JPOP is an asshat and stole my money" billboard down the block from them, or TP Robert's lawn. Anything would have to be more constructive than jerking each other off in an isolated thread on Pinside.

LOL. I don't believe this. What has there been, 2 or 3 virtually non-updates in 7 months? It's not like there's any new information coming out. It's not like we don't all know what probably *isn't* happening at deeproot. And yet that thread is on fire every day for 7 months? For reasons unclear to me, this topic seems to be self-sustaining. Honestly, if deeproot continued to give non-updates once every 3-6 months for the next 4 years, somehow that thread would continue to be on fire. It makes no sense. What can be said, has been said. And frankly, I agree with a lot of the cynicism and disbelief regarding what's gone down. I just posted recently that I don't understand the people on the other side in this thread that feel all rainbows and unicorns about things either. It's the constant and perpetual beating the negativity into the ground that feels so petty.

Hey, we agree on something.

And this is obviously completely uncalled-for! Internet fights and people puffing their chests from behind keyboards are beyond lame. Sorry you have to put up with shit like this. This is kinda the same "so many people on the internet act like losers" argument I was making before. Different target group with different details, but the same sentiment. WTF people. Threats?!? Give me a break.

Oh god! I don't have a consistent political leaning, but this is one of a few terms that tell me more than I need to know about a person.

smh - I guess give them points for creativity this time if nothing else.

Does anyone have a bridge to sell me? You don't even need a compelling sales pitch, apparently.

I'm an original Zidware customer, burned by Jpop. I decided to gamble on deeproot. Went for it with the Xtra. Figured even if I didn't like it, it was rare and I could sell it for a modest profit as compensation for my pain and suffering. Whoops!

I'm pissed, but whatever. I'd be REALLY pissed if I didn't realize it was a gamble I decided to take (could be read as my ignorance).

So anyway. Idiot alert! Send me your hugely expensive scams, I'm sure I'll bite.

Paging any Princes from Nigeria - I'll pay you cash for that check you can't cash.

Nah...didn't tell her yet. LOL!

She approved the "investment" so she'll just call me a dumbass. No argument from me, she's right.

Wow, and from someone I really respected in the industry. Disappointing!

Hating on John / RM and relishing them going down in flames? Obviously.

Enjoying some of the more *vocal* RAZA cheerleaders losing out? I guess I can see that, maybe.

But rando dudes who either bought into deeproot RAZA, or took a chance after the Zidware screwing, and have pretty much silently rode this nightmare out? That's entertaining to you? That's a pretty asshole perspective.

If you said you have absolutely no sympathy - totally fair. You shouldn't. But savoring them getting screwed is kind of a dick move. But you do you I guess.

I'm not looking to argue, but it certainly does not read that way. If he said, "I hate John/RM, and the things they're doing are so toxic, that for the benefit of the community, I want them to fail at all costs. Too bad RAZA buyers - you're collateral damage." That would be what you're saying. Saying "I also enjoy seeing people who bought into Deeproot's bullshit LOSING THEIR MONEY" is rooting for the misfortune of those consumers (along with John/RM).

Whatever, he's entitled to feel however he wants. I don't actually know what he feels, I just know how it reads.

Anyway, I'm moving on to other things. No matter what, everything surrounding this topic, company, and the people involved is depressing. Maybe I need one of those bidets you're going on about.

No way. It's one thing to rip off a bunch of pinball nerds for a few grand a piece. It's another to rob the life savings from a few hundred seniors. Unforgivable.