(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

11 months ago


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  • 3,298 posts
  • 253 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 days ago by jeffspinballpalace
  • Topic is favorited by 89 Pinsiders

You

Topic poll

“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
    52%
  • Xtra 25 votes
    48%

(52 votes)

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There are 3,298 posts in this topic. You are on page 66 of 66.
#3251 59 days ago
Quoted from Scandell:

Yeah YOU don’t get to make those jokes as you had contributed to the blind optimism.

Just curious…
Did Robert have a Secretary?

#3252 58 days ago
Quoted from jwilson:

I’ve seen what passes for pinball discussion on Facebook and it’s just as toxic, except it’s harder to read and has much less knowledgeable people. You can only read so many “I have a light out what do I do” posts.
Is Pinside perfect? No, by the nature of the pinball demographic it has plenty of vitriol to go around. But at least you can formulate your thoughts and aren’t beholden to Zuckerbergs idea of how you should communicate.

or the overly touchy mods in the FB groups on top of the overly touchy people. At least they are wise enough to ban Cornelius out of pretty much every pinball group, I'll give them credit for that

EDIT- You say his name one time and he unblocks me on FB to ask why I am "obsessed" with him. Glad to see you're still watching us Corny. Hey, remember when you threatened to report me to IFPA and say that I could be a danger to "shoot up" a pinball event, because you were so outraged at my disparaging comments about Deeproot, a company that stole millions of dollars from little old ladies? Fun stuff. Maybe you can go back to calling everyone racist or homophobic while at the same time insinuating that I am gay and that it would be a bad thing if I was. Never change, sir.

24
#3253 57 days ago

I had an original pre-order. Spent 5 min on the the phone 2 weeks ago with Amex, and today got a letter from them letting me know that the investigation has concluded, and I got a full refund.

#3254 57 days ago
Quoted from Jarson:I had an original pre-order. Spent 5 min on the the phone 2 weeks ago with Amex, and today got a letter from them letting me know that the investigation has concluded, and I got a full refund.

Ok, is the lesson learned buy with Amex versus any other credit card?

21
#3255 57 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:Ok, is the lesson learned buy with Amex versus any other credit card?

THat's like lesson 504 out of this whole thing.

The "lesson learned" is don't buy games that don't exist from companies that have produced nothing but promises and hot air.

#3256 56 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

THat's like lesson 504 out of this whole thing.
The "lesson learned" is don't buy games that don't exist from companies that have produced nothing but promises and hot air.

That lesson will not be learned..

#3257 56 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The "lesson learned" is don't buy games that don't exist from companies that have produced nothing but promises and hot air.

Exactly!

Even the hot air wasn't very good on this one.... Holy Crappy Caper Batman.

#3258 56 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

Exactly!
Even the hot air wasn't very good on this one.... Holy Crappy Caper Batman.

That hot air was RM talking out of his ass.

#3259 56 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

THat's like lesson 504 out of this whole thing.
The "lesson learned" is don't buy games that don't exist from companies that have produced nothing but promises and hot air.

My point is don’t buy any existing or non existing game without using Amex card period.

#3260 55 days ago

Pretty soon schemers will wise up and quit accepting AXE payments ??? With keys to business accounts, American Express does what American Express wants. Moral of the story, don’t F with AXE. .

#3261 55 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

My point is don’t buy any existing or non existing game without using Amex card period.

I think Levi's point was Don't buy a Non Existing Game - Period.

I agree with him on that one. Pinball buying 101

Just don't do it.

Keep your cash, put away your credit card and don't trade away your books of S&H Green stamps on any Non Existent game.

-24
#3262 55 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

I think Levi's point was Don't buy a Non Existing Game - Period.
I agree with him on that one. Pinball buying 101
Just don't do it.
Keep your cash, put away your credit card and don't trade away your books of S&H Green stamps on any Non Existent game.

Define „non existent“.

When they opened order banks the game existed. (Well, two machines that is.)

The machines for sale were not made yet, but so is every Stern you preorder before it is at retailers.

There won‘t be any new manufacturers if they have to deliver machines to retailers before orders and money come in.

41
#3263 55 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Define „non existent“.
When they opened order banks the game existed. (Well, two machines that is.)
The machines for sale were not made yet, but so is every Stern you preorder before it is at retailers.
There won‘t be any new manufacturers if they have to deliver machines to retailers before orders and money come in.

We are still playing this dumb game? Really?

A couple cobbled together prototypes does not mean a game exists, this has been proven time and time again in pinball scam after pinball scam. This was pointed out by countless people countless times during this con.

You sent these losers money and defended them for years with extreme conviction without seeing ANY evidence they could mass produce and ship a pinball machine. That was a mistake. Will you do it again sometime someone wows you with a flashy half-working prototype and 5 years worth of bullshit?

Comparing the RAZA scam to Stern "pre-order" is a pathetic rationalization and just makes it look like you haven't learned anything and are eager to get ripped off again. If you really can't understand the difference between what Deep Root was doing and what Stern does several times a year I'm hoping someone else has the keys to your bank account.

#3264 55 days ago

This feels like the longest charge dispute in history. Still going strong...

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#3265 55 days ago
Quoted from NashtyFunk:

This feels like the longest charge dispute in history. Still going strong...
[quoted image]

I'm sorry to see that, it's my understanding these things take 30-40 days to resolve. What credit card did you use?

#3266 55 days ago

I used my Citi Prestige Card. It used to be a great card. They got rid of a lot of the concierge stuff they used to have. I should have used AMEX.

Quoted from Mr68:

I'm sorry to see that, it's my understanding these things take 30-40 days to resolve. What credit card did you use?

#3267 55 days ago

JPOP designed vehicle really has it all. Now we know what John was working on…. a souped up JPOOPER. A production model will be offered in one color …. jpurple.
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#3268 54 days ago
Quoted from NashtyFunk:

I used my Citi Prestige Card. It used to be a great card. They got rid of a lot of the concierge stuff they used to have. I should have used AMEX.

No, you shouldn't have put money into this in the first place.

Maybe a hard and expensive lesson to learn. Serious question, given the facts, if the next new shiny appeared and the story was similar, would you buy in?

-1
#3269 54 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

No, you shouldn't have put money into this in the first place.
Maybe a hard and expensive lesson to learn. Serious question, given the facts, if the next new shiny appeared and the story was similar, would you buy in?

Yup with an Amex card for a deposit. Low to no risk baby!

#3270 51 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Define „non existent“.
When they opened order banks the game existed. (Well, two machines that is.)
The machines for sale were not made yet, but so is every Stern you preorder before it is at retailers.

I think the point you are trying to make is pre-ordering Stern tables isn't zero risk either. This is true. However, I wouldn't use a 35 year old company with leading numbers of annual pinball tables produced and sold around the world as an equivalent risk comparison to Deeproot.

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

There won‘t be any new manufacturers if they have to deliver machines to retailers before orders and money come in.

This is how legitimate business works. A new company secures start-up capital, uses that money to develop and produce a product that gets sold to distributors, then use those sales to sustain and grow the business.

#3271 48 days ago
Quoted from Flipstream:

I think the point you are trying to make is pre-ordering Stern tables isn't zero risk either.

No, that was not the point. The point is how you'd define "non existent". You can be pretty sure you'll get a "non existent" ( = not yet manufactured and sitting in a retailers warehouse) Stern, but there's a lot of ground (companys) inbetween Stern and Deeproot.

Quoted from Flipstream:

This is how legitimate business works. A new company secures start-up capital, uses that money to develop and produce a product that gets sold to distributors, then use those sales to sustain and grow the business.

That is correct but according to that noone besides Stern is a legitimate business. You'll pay preoder money in full oder in part everywhere, and didn't JJP collect in full upfront when working years on Woz?

Point is, other companys have nice machines as well and if you want one you're in for a more or less risky ride.
Like, is "Fathom Revisited" a "non existent" game? It was anounced when Hagis barely shipped out the first games (wich is significantly more then Deeproot ever did). Is Big Lebowski existant (it's like Schrödinger's cat)? Everyone decides for him/herself if he/she is willing to take the risk.

#3272 46 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

That is correct but according to that noone besides Stern is a legitimate business.

What he meant was is that a business should not take money like all proper companies, not only Pinball companies. Nowadays there are more and more "businesses" trying to get money before having done through crowdfunding but that is not how it is supposed to go. A business takes the risk of making money or not, NOT the customer. Sell something when you have built it (in sufficient quantities) and you know it works, not before.

The great thing for these so called "companies" that want money upfront is, when they do make a lot of money, they get the profit, but if they fail the customer has to take the loss. Compare it to anything else you buy. Would you pre-pay a kitchen to someone that never made a kitchen and not even has any tools to make or even install that kitchen?

Everybody should just stop sending money to these clowns. Let them take the risk, they choose to start the company.

2 weeks later
47
#3273 26 days ago
Quoted from Ferret:

I'm also not happy that a bunch of good work of David Thiel, and Barry Oursler, and Steve Bowden, and many other good employees, is likely lost forever.

and so am I unhappy. Thanks for the thought Joe. I can't and won't say much. I will say this, as a distance collaborator I never understood how Deeproot was funded. When the SEC suit was revealed I was shocked and dismayed.

While I am frustrated with JJP's POTC being the last machine with a contribution from me rest assured that early next year there will be a new pin that has the best work I have done so far and I can hardly wait for the reveal.

I am out there working to provide the best audio for the pinball experience that I can and hopefully pinball players will be playing some new work soon.

David Thiel
Pinball Audio Artist.

#3274 26 days ago
Quoted from daudioguy:

and so am I unhappy. Thanks for the thought Joe. I can't and won't say much. I will say this, as a distance collaborator I never understood how Deeproot was funded. When the SEC suit was revealed I was shocked and dismayed.
While I am frustrated with JJP's POTC being the last machine with a contribution from me rest assured that early next year there will be a new pin that has the best work I have done so far and I can hardly wait for the reveal.
I am out there working to provide the best audio for the pinball experience that I can and hopefully pinball players will be playing some new work soon.
David Thiel
Pinball Audio Artist.

Who's game is early next year David? Will keep my ears open!

#3275 25 days ago
Quoted from daudioguy:

David Thiel
Pinball Audio Artist

My children are at the age where they’re starting to think of being a “doctor” or an “engineer” or even an “astronaut.” My reply will now be, why not shoot for the stars and go for “Pinball Audio Artist”… Hands down the most fantastic title I’ve ever seen.

Love your work David. (and especially Alien!)

#3276 25 days ago

If anyone hears whispers of another company going after the Goonies license for a game, and making one of their own, let me know. (I can also help get the license with WB if needed.)

#3277 25 days ago
Quoted from TicTacSeth:

If anyone hears whispers of another company going after the Goonies license for a game, and making one of their own, let me know. (I can also help get the license with WB if needed.)

I’ll be producing one in the back alley of my apartment building. Hell’s Kitchen Pinball’s The Goonies. Shipping Q2 2022.

Send money now!

#3278 25 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Hell’s Kitchen Pinball

A much better company name than deeproot ever was!

#3279 25 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll be producing one in the back alley of my apartment building. Hell’s Kitchen Pinball’s The Goonies. Shipping Q2 2022.
Send money now!

Haha, let’s do this!

#3280 25 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll be producing one in the back alley of my apartment building. Hell’s Kitchen Pinball’s The Goonies. Shipping Q2 2022.
Send money now!

I heard about a building in San Antonio that was recently vacated you might be able to rent pretty cheap. I think it would be perfect for pinball manufacturing. Might even have a SMD pick 'n place along w/a reflow machine just sitting there. And 4 Harbor Freight workbenches.

#3281 25 days ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

I heard about a building in San Antonio that was recently vacated you might be able to rent pretty cheap. I think it would be perfect for pinball manufacturing. Might even have a SMD pick 'n place along w/a reflow machine just sitting there. And 4 Harbor Freight workbenches.

Gotta pay to clean the gym. Not cheap!

#3282 24 days ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

And 4 Harbor Freight workbenches.

Quad manufacturing set up and ready to go!

1 week later
#3283 17 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Pretty soon schemers will wise up and quit accepting AXE payments ??? With keys to business accounts, American Express does what American Express wants. Moral of the story, don’t F with AXE. .

Might it be that Amex is taking the loss themselves rather than having DR refunded Amex the money?

#3284 14 days ago
Quoted from rai:

Might it be that Amex is taking the loss themselves rather than having DR refunded Amex the money?

I'm pretty sure they have an insurance for that.

#3285 14 days ago

Might be asked before. But the games that where build and tested at the shows where are they ?

#3286 13 days ago
Quoted from AMSNL:

Might be asked before. But the games that where build and tested at the shows where are they ?

That’s a big unknown. I don’t know that there was more than 1 completely working Game tho?

#3287 12 days ago

I’m sorry have not followed the story lately, what has Ben happened at DR have any pins been shipped at all?

#3288 12 days ago
Quoted from rai:

I’m sorry have not followed the story lately, what has Ben happened at DR have any pins been shipped at all?

lol

#3289 12 days ago
Quoted from rai:

I’m sorry have not followed the story lately, what has Ben happened at DR have any pins been shipped at all?

Sorry this was an auto correct situation, I didn't mean to type Ben.

I was trying to ask

What has been happening at DR.. but the auto correct came out What has Ben happened at DR

#3290 12 days ago
Quoted from rai:

Sorry this was an auto correct situation, I didn't mean to type Ben.
I was trying to ask
What has been happening at DR.. but the auto correct came out What has Ben happened at DR

Read the key posts in the other thread....should be pretty self explanatory.

#3291 12 days ago
Quoted from rai:

Sorry this was an auto correct situation, I didn't mean to type Ben.
I was trying to ask
What has been happening at DR.. but the auto correct came out What has Ben happened at DR

oh you were serious!?

Yes, go read the other thread holy crap I don't even know where to start. No games got released. No games got finished even. Robert is under investigation by the SEC for stealing from old ladies. The buisiness was nothing more than Robert and his friends making horrible pie in the sky business decisions. THX sound, virtual reality assembly, holy crap there is just so much. Its the wildest story ever and everyone who bought in to any of his claims was a complete idiot, but even more than anyone could have ever imagined.

#3292 12 days ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

oh you were serious!?
Yes, go read the other thread holy crap I don't even know where to start. No games got released. No games got finished even. Robert is under investigation by the SEC for stealing from old ladies. The buisiness was nothing more than Robert and his friends making horrible pie in the sky business decisions. THX sound, virtual reality assembly, holy crap there is just so much. Its the wildest story ever and everyone who bought in to any of his claims was a complete idiot, but even more than anyone could have ever imagined.

Oh wow, I hadn't looked at the other thread. Last I saw was when they were doing the announcements and the game features (PinBar etc.) I saw that and was not feeling anything good. I figured that they would have been shipping some (like Alien) but then ran into production hell.

#3293 12 days ago
Quoted from rai:

I’m sorry have not followed the story lately, what has Ben happened at DR have any pins been shipped at all?

I talked to Robert on the phone. He assured me everything is okay and I trust him cause he seems like a good guy. Send money.

#3294 11 days ago

Time to change subtitle of thread title to …. a whale-sized tale of ponzi-like fraud, arrogance, intimidation, incompetence and JPOP with a Texas rub plus AMEX bangbacks

#3295 10 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Time to change subtitle of thread title to …. a whale-sized tale of ponzi-like fraud, arrogance, intimidation, incompetence and JPOP with a Texas rub plus AMEX bangbacks

Don't forget the enablers and pumpers in this thread.

#3296 10 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Time to change subtitle of thread title to …. a whale-sized tale of ponzi-like fraud, arrogance, intimidation, incompetence and JPOP with a Texas rub plus AMEX bangbacks

On the bright side, I think RM and other similar examples in the last few years are helping me recognize this personality type and the trouble they can cause. Hopefully I can stay well clear of them.

Probably safest to apply the old adage, "How can you tell if they're lying? Their mouth is moving."

#3298 9 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Don't forget the enablers and pumpers in this thread.

We’re going to need a bigger subtitle space.

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