I’m no expert and I could be reading this wrong but it appears the CC companies would have to refund you if you reported within 60 days. Everyone is way beyond that

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/what-do-if-youre-billed-things-you-never-got-or-you-get-unordered-products

Also see “Disputing credit card billing errors after the 60-day dispute period ends”

You are always going to be successful with your card company when this kinda crap happens and is reported but do not think for a minute these companies don't do their homework! Once they see the details and the fact you signed Roberts basic "your fucked" contract, I would be very surprised if anyone gets to keep their refunds. Sorry to say this and I know everyone deserves it back however you had the opportunity to cash out and once you rolled the dice the credit card companies are off the hook. Lets hope in some circumstances they miss this! Fingers crossed for all of you!

This is an interesting argument. I can certainly imagine the disreputable credit card banks utilizing this logic to rescind refunds.

Nevertheless, it's a specious argument. This is because refunds were essentially predicated upon delays as opposed to nondelivery. In other words, a buyer's deposit remained the consideration given in exchange for a nondelivered product. The fact that a buyer passed on one or more refund opportunities (while foolish) does not alter the immutable money for goods dynamic of the transaction.

The credit card companies can hang their hats on a variety of straightforward factors, particularly the long passage of time, to deny charge-backs. They probably don't need to dig deep into a refund time-line analysis to do so, if they're so inclined.

If a credit card company is consumer-oriented, all that will matter is that the deposit was taken and the product was not delivered (and never will be, given the SEC revelations and the closure of the deeproot facility). I imagine that credit card customers who regularly charge large sums to their cards will succeed, particularly with AMEX, whereas other cardholders will fail to recoup their deposits.

CC companies just pass the loss on to us. Thanks for gambling RAZA owners, non-buyers lost, you get your money back.

Visa and Mastercard are independent entities from banks, (BofA, Wells, etc.). The card company (Visa) may issue a refund; however, the investigation of a fraudulent charge and final approval (excepting various appeals processes) falls on the bank. Hence why you have the situation where the card co (Visa) said Ok, but the card issuer (BofA) said 'wait a minute'. While there are a number of t's and c's that are fairly black and white (like how long you have to claim a refund) the signed agreement does add an interesting wrinkle.

I have no idea what the agreement says and, therefore, what preorder people actually bought. Did they buy a game or just the right to reserve a spot in line to procure a game at a given price, if and when the game was produced? If the later, then DR and the bank could reasonably argue that the obligation was met per the agreement the customer signed. (Regardless, as ZNET notes, the ability to obtain a refund wouldn't make any difference .)

Yeah, all speculation w/out knowing what was signed. But to me - ‘non-refundable’ deposit sure sounds like exactly that — doesn’t matter if customer pays remainder later and gets product, changes mind and doesn’t pay remainder and no product, or company isn’t able to deliver product within timeframe. They haven’t technically folded, so from a credit dispute standpoint they just haven’t delivered a product within a timeframe.

Was that part of the contacts? Refunds will be given on deposits if we don’t deliver games by xxxx date? Or if we don’t make games?

If you paid in full, that’s another story.. but still seems like contract dependent ?

I hope for the best for you all, AMEX backed me in a crowdfunding gone wrong situation, but yes, for other cards I don't expect you will get or can keep the refund.

No refunds policy goes out the window when deeproot doesn’t deliver the goods in timely manner promised.

Whats a timely manner? Deeproots schedule or a Visa appointed bean counter who will see that there is "a" deeproot company still in existence and deny.

https://www.deeproot.com/

So can we get a recap of cards to purchase pins on in the future?

AMEX refunds
B of A Doesn’t
Others?

Amex.

Capital One told me no refund due to the timeframe. Thankfully it was only the 10% deposit.

Dang, Deeproot declined to refund my DR credits, not even for store credit. Man that sucks.

Maybe you can request front row seats to the SEC trial in exchange?

What store would you get credits for?

Lostco.

Robert needs a high profile legal representation. Entering courtroom in a cloud of smoke is Johnny Cochran. “Your Honor and Jury”, I won’t waste your time and will cut to the quick. “If it didn’t ship .... he must have quit….. and now you must acquit”. The defense rests its case and where do I submit my $1M invoice to be paid ahead of the chumps here?

They did offer refund, 3 months ago…

Not for Zidware credits.

Yes I had that option. Being in this game since 2012, I wasn't looking for a refund.
High five for many it seems (and not speaking of the ones taking the refund). Good for them. Sad for pinball.

No, that was the last email update. Refund options over by then. Refunds were like 6+.
Time passes fast doesn't it.

After reading some of this, do y’all still wonder why the majority of pinball hobbyists consider Pinside toxic?

I read that for the longest time on RGP before I ever joined Pinside.

No, and they need to grow up.

No, but I do wonder why people say “y’all”.

RM is the toxic one here. Not pinside.

Pinside is a terrific place to communicate with other pinball people. Absolutely love it…..even the people I disagree with.
However, certain topics really flare up strong opinions and disagreements beyond the norm imho.
It’s all good though and still better than talking about work!!!

You should change jobs!

Robert Mueller has never posted on this thread... that I am aware of.
But I could be wrong... that wouldn't be a first time.

Not in this thread but he has posted on Pinside. And he didn't do very well.

https://pinside.com/pinball/community/pinsiders/deeproot/forum
zdeeproot (resized).png

Here is relative. None of us would be here, in this thread, if it weren't for RM.

you-suck-at-the-internet-20050946 (resized).png

I remember getting in at the last moment. Thought I was getting this awesome looking pin with cool (imo)theme and i was so excited. Only to get ripped off by Robert Mueller and deeproot pinball. Buyer beware as I'm sure somebody else will come along and do it again.

Screenshot_20210916-202744_Samsung Internet (resized).jpg

Screenshot_20210918-073355_Samsung Internet (resized).jpg

I'm sorry for your loss. I thought it was a cool looking game too.

The artwork does look cool, but I never cared for the smoothie style mixing of those themes.
There just isnt any real correlation between those genres.

Name one thing that he has done well.

Attract the attention of the SEC?

Scam people, old and young!

Everything too good to be true, but ya gotta disregard the math, young and old..

Finding future ex-wives?

You overgrown children prove my point so easily.

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Do you think DR was legit at any point? Remember, 300 retirees got scammed out of far more money than the people here did. I think it averages out to $190,000 per investor. RM and Jpoop suck and delivering pinball, but great at scams.

I’ve seen what passes for pinball discussion on Facebook and it’s just as toxic, except it’s harder to read and has much less knowledgeable people. You can only read so many “I have a light out what do I do” posts.

Is Pinside perfect? No, by the nature of the pinball demographic it has plenty of vitriol to go around. But at least you can formulate your thoughts and aren’t beholden to Zuckerbergs idea of how you should communicate.

Agree 100%. I'm only there for Marketplace.

Any Raza Preorder spots for sale yet?

To soon... ?

scnr

Yea man, I'll sell you my spot. Matter of fact why don't you stop over and pick it up in person.

The only thing worse is if you worked for the blind optimist!

not beeing a total arse != blind optimism

I will admit tought that I didn't thought that really EVERY prejudice against Robert/ Deeproot would come/ be true.