(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

1 year ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 3,299 posts
  • 253 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by Nysbadmk8
  • Topic is favorited by 77 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
    52%
  • Xtra 25 votes
    48%

(52 votes)

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There are 3,299 posts in this topic. You are on page 65 of 66.
#3201 1 year ago

I’m no expert and I could be reading this wrong but it appears the CC companies would have to refund you if you reported within 60 days. Everyone is way beyond that

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/what-do-if-youre-billed-things-you-never-got-or-you-get-unordered-products

Also see “Disputing credit card billing errors after the 60-day dispute period ends”

13
#3202 1 year ago
Quoted from RobT:

That sucks, but is not surprising. I found it to be more surprising that people were being successful with their chargebacks.

You are always going to be successful with your card company when this kinda crap happens and is reported but do not think for a minute these companies don't do their homework! Once they see the details and the fact you signed Roberts basic "your fucked" contract, I would be very surprised if anyone gets to keep their refunds. Sorry to say this and I know everyone deserves it back however you had the opportunity to cash out and once you rolled the dice the credit card companies are off the hook. Lets hope in some circumstances they miss this! Fingers crossed for all of you!

#3203 1 year ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

You are always going to be successful with your card company when this kinda crap happens and is reported but do not think for a minute these companies don't do their homework! Once they see the details and the fact you signed Roberts basic "your fucked" contract, I would be very surprised if anyone gets to keep their refunds. Sorry to say this and I know everyone deserves it back however you had the opportunity to cash out and once you rolled the dice the credit card companies are off the hook. Lets hope in some circumstances they miss this! Fingers crossed for all of you!

This is an interesting argument. I can certainly imagine the disreputable credit card banks utilizing this logic to rescind refunds.

Nevertheless, it's a specious argument. This is because refunds were essentially predicated upon delays as opposed to nondelivery. In other words, a buyer's deposit remained the consideration given in exchange for a nondelivered product. The fact that a buyer passed on one or more refund opportunities (while foolish) does not alter the immutable money for goods dynamic of the transaction.

The credit card companies can hang their hats on a variety of straightforward factors, particularly the long passage of time, to deny charge-backs. They probably don't need to dig deep into a refund time-line analysis to do so, if they're so inclined.

If a credit card company is consumer-oriented, all that will matter is that the deposit was taken and the product was not delivered (and never will be, given the SEC revelations and the closure of the deeproot facility). I imagine that credit card customers who regularly charge large sums to their cards will succeed, particularly with AMEX, whereas other cardholders will fail to recoup their deposits.

-2
#3204 1 year ago
Quoted from ZNET:

This is an interesting argument. I can certainly imagine the disreputable credit card banks utilizing this logic to rescind refunds.
Nevertheless, it's a specious argument. This is because refunds were essentially predicated upon delays as opposed to nondelivery. In other words, a buyer's deposit remained the consideration given in exchange for a nondelivered product. The fact that a buyer passed on one or more refund opportunities (while foolish) does not alter the immutable money for goods dynamic of the transaction.
The credit card companies can hang their hats on a variety of straightforward factors, particularly the long passage of time, to deny charge-backs. They probably don't need to dig deep into a refund time-line analysis to do so, if they're so inclined.
If a credit card company is consumer-oriented, all that will matter is that the deposit was taken and the product was not delivered (and never will be, given the SEC revelations and the closure of the deeproot facility). I imagine that credit card customers who regularly charge large sums to their cards will succeed, particularly with AMEX, whereas other cardholders will fail to recoup their deposits.

CC companies just pass the loss on to us. Thanks for gambling RAZA owners, non-buyers lost, you get your money back.

#3205 1 year ago

Visa and Mastercard are independent entities from banks, (BofA, Wells, etc.). The card company (Visa) may issue a refund; however, the investigation of a fraudulent charge and final approval (excepting various appeals processes) falls on the bank. Hence why you have the situation where the card co (Visa) said Ok, but the card issuer (BofA) said 'wait a minute'. While there are a number of t's and c's that are fairly black and white (like how long you have to claim a refund) the signed agreement does add an interesting wrinkle.

I have no idea what the agreement says and, therefore, what preorder people actually bought. Did they buy a game or just the right to reserve a spot in line to procure a game at a given price, if and when the game was produced? If the later, then DR and the bank could reasonably argue that the obligation was met per the agreement the customer signed. (Regardless, as ZNET notes, the ability to obtain a refund wouldn't make any difference .)

#3206 1 year ago

Yeah, all speculation w/out knowing what was signed. But to me - ‘non-refundable’ deposit sure sounds like exactly that — doesn’t matter if customer pays remainder later and gets product, changes mind and doesn’t pay remainder and no product, or company isn’t able to deliver product within timeframe. They haven’t technically folded, so from a credit dispute standpoint they just haven’t delivered a product within a timeframe.

Was that part of the contacts? Refunds will be given on deposits if we don’t deliver games by xxxx date? Or if we don’t make games?

If you paid in full, that’s another story.. but still seems like contract dependent ?

#3207 1 year ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

You are always going to be successful with your card company when this kinda crap happens and is reported but do not think for a minute these companies don't do their homework! Once they see the details and the fact you signed Roberts basic "your fucked" contract, I would be very surprised if anyone gets to keep their refunds. Sorry to say this and I know everyone deserves it back however you had the opportunity to cash out and once you rolled the dice the credit card companies are off the hook. Lets hope in some circumstances they miss this! Fingers crossed for all of you!

I hope for the best for you all, AMEX backed me in a crowdfunding gone wrong situation, but yes, for other cards I don't expect you will get or can keep the refund.

#3208 1 year ago

No refunds policy goes out the window when deeproot doesn’t deliver the goods in timely manner promised.

#3209 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

No refunds policy goes out the window when deeproot doesn’t deliver the goods in timely manner promised.

Whats a timely manner? Deeproots schedule or a Visa appointed bean counter who will see that there is "a" deeproot company still in existence and deny.

https://www.deeproot.com/

#3210 1 year ago

So can we get a recap of cards to purchase pins on in the future?

AMEX refunds
B of A Doesn’t
Others?

#3211 1 year ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

So can we get a recap of cards to purchase pins on in the future?
AMEX refunds
B of A Doesn’t
Others?

Amex.

#3212 1 year ago

Capital One told me no refund due to the timeframe. Thankfully it was only the 10% deposit.

#3213 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

That sucks about your Credit Card company. But I appreciate your candor in posting about it publicly. It's helpful for others to know and I suspect most people in the same situation will remain silent or pretend all is good.
You're a stand up guy, TP.

Dang, Deeproot declined to refund my DR credits, not even for store credit. Man that sucks.

#3214 1 year ago

Maybe you can request front row seats to the SEC trial in exchange?

#3215 1 year ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Dang, Deeproot declined to refund my DR credits, not even for store credit. Man that sucks.

What store would you get credits for?

11
#3216 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

What store would you get credits for?

Lostco.

#3217 1 year ago

Robert needs a high profile legal representation. Entering courtroom in a cloud of smoke is Johnny Cochran. “Your Honor and Jury”, I won’t waste your time and will cut to the quick. “If it didn’t ship .... he must have quit….. and now you must acquit”. The defense rests its case and where do I submit my $1M invoice to be paid ahead of the chumps here?

#3218 1 year ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Dang, Deeproot declined to refund my DR credits, not even for store credit. Man that sucks.

They did offer refund, 3 months ago…

#3219 1 year ago
Quoted from gprotein:

They did offer refund, 3 months ago…

Not for Zidware credits.

#3221 1 year ago
Quoted from gprotein:

They did offer refund, 3 months ago…

Yes I had that option. Being in this game since 2012, I wasn't looking for a refund.
High five for many it seems (and not speaking of the ones taking the refund). Good for them. Sad for pinball.

#3222 1 year ago
Quoted from gprotein:

They did offer refund, 3 months ago…

No, that was the last email update. Refund options over by then. Refunds were like 6+.
Time passes fast doesn't it.

-6
#3223 1 year ago

After reading some of this, do y’all still wonder why the majority of pinball hobbyists consider Pinside toxic?

#3224 1 year ago
Quoted from Danzig:

After reading some of this, do y’all still wonder why the majority of pinball hobbyists consider Pinside toxic?

I read that for the longest time on RGP before I ever joined Pinside.

#3225 1 year ago
Quoted from Danzig:

After reading some of this, do y’all still wonder why the majority of pinball hobbyists consider Pinside toxic?

No, and they need to grow up.

#3226 1 year ago
Quoted from Danzig:

After reading some of this, do y’all still wonder why the majority of pinball hobbyists consider Pinside toxic?

No, but I do wonder why people say “y’all”.

#3227 1 year ago
Quoted from Danzig:

After reading some of this, do y’all still wonder why the majority of pinball hobbyists consider Pinside toxic?

RM is the toxic one here. Not pinside.

#3228 1 year ago

Pinside is a terrific place to communicate with other pinball people. Absolutely love it…..even the people I disagree with.
However, certain topics really flare up strong opinions and disagreements beyond the norm imho.
It’s all good though and still better than talking about work!!!

#3229 1 year ago
Quoted from kklank:

Pinside is a terrific place to communicate with other pinball people. Absolutely love it…..even the people I disagree with.
However, certain topics really flare up strong opinions and disagreements beyond the norm imho.
It’s all good though and still better than talking about work!!!

You should change jobs!

#3230 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

RM is the toxic one here. Not pinside.

Robert Mueller has never posted on this thread... that I am aware of.
But I could be wrong... that wouldn't be a first time.

#3231 1 year ago

Not in this thread but he has posted on Pinside. And he didn't do very well.

https://pinside.com/pinball/community/pinsiders/deeproot/forum
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#3232 1 year ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Robert Mueller has never posted on this thread... that I am aware of.
But I could be wrong... that wouldn't be a first time.

Here is relative. None of us would be here, in this thread, if it weren't for RM.

#3233 1 year ago
Quoted from Danzig:

After reading some of this, do y’all still wonder why the majority of pinball hobbyists consider Pinside toxic?

you-suck-at-the-internet-20050946 (resized).png

#3234 1 year ago

I remember getting in at the last moment. Thought I was getting this awesome looking pin with cool (imo)theme and i was so excited. Only to get ripped off by Robert Mueller and deeproot pinball. Buyer beware as I'm sure somebody else will come along and do it again.

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#3235 1 year ago
Quoted from tp:

I remember getting in at the last moment. Thought I was getting this awesome looking pin with cool (imo)theme and i was so excited. Only to get ripped off by Robert Mueller and deeproot pinball. Buyer beware as I'm sure somebody else will come along and do it again.
[quoted image][quoted image]

I'm sorry for your loss. I thought it was a cool looking game too.

#3236 1 year ago
Quoted from tp:

I remember getting in at the last moment. Thought I was getting this awesome looking pin with cool (imo)theme and i was so excited. Only to get ripped off by Robert Mueller and deeproot pinball. Buyer beware as I'm sure somebody else will come along and do it again.
[quoted image][quoted image]

The artwork does look cool, but I never cared for the smoothie style mixing of those themes.
There just isnt any real correlation between those genres.

#3237 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Not in this thread but he has posted on Pinside. And he didn't do very well.
https://pinside.com/pinball/community/pinsiders/deeproot/forum
[quoted image]

Name one thing that he has done well.

12
#3238 1 year ago
Quoted from RobT:

Name one thing that he has done well.

Attract the attention of the SEC?

#3239 1 year ago

Scam people, old and young!

Everything too good to be true, but ya gotta disregard the math, young and old..

#3240 1 year ago
Quoted from RobT:

Name one thing that he has done well.

Finding future ex-wives?

-2
#3241 1 year ago

You overgrown children prove my point so easily.

#3242 12 months ago
Quoted from Danzig:

You overgrown children prove my point so easily.

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#3243 12 months ago
Quoted from Danzig:

You overgrown children prove my point so easily.

Do you think DR was legit at any point? Remember, 300 retirees got scammed out of far more money than the people here did. I think it averages out to $190,000 per investor. RM and Jpoop suck and delivering pinball, but great at scams.

15
#3244 12 months ago
Quoted from Danzig:

After reading some of this, do y’all still wonder why the majority of pinball hobbyists consider Pinside toxic?

I’ve seen what passes for pinball discussion on Facebook and it’s just as toxic, except it’s harder to read and has much less knowledgeable people. You can only read so many “I have a light out what do I do” posts.

Is Pinside perfect? No, by the nature of the pinball demographic it has plenty of vitriol to go around. But at least you can formulate your thoughts and aren’t beholden to Zuckerbergs idea of how you should communicate.

#3245 12 months ago
Quoted from jwilson:

I’ve seen what passes for pinball discussion on Facebook and it’s just as toxic, except it’s harder to read and has much less knowledgeable people. You can only read so many “I have a light out what do I do” posts.

Agree 100%. I'm only there for Marketplace.

-1
#3246 12 months ago

Any Raza Preorder spots for sale yet?

To soon... ?

scnr

#3247 12 months ago

Yea man, I'll sell you my spot. Matter of fact why don't you stop over and pick it up in person.

#3248 12 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Any Raza Preorder spots for sale yet?
To soon... ?
scnr

Yeah YOU don’t get to make those jokes as you had contributed to the blind optimism.

#3249 12 months ago
Quoted from Scandell:

Yeah YOU don’t get to make those jokes as you had contributed to the blind optimism.

The only thing worse is if you worked for the blind optimist!

#3250 12 months ago

not beeing a total arse != blind optimism

I will admit tought that I didn't thought that really EVERY prejudice against Robert/ Deeproot would come/ be true.

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