(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

10 months ago


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  • 3,272 posts
  • 248 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 12 days ago by ronaldvg
  • Topic is favorited by 89 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
    52%
  • Xtra 25 votes
    48%

(52 votes)

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There are 3272 posts in this topic. You are on page 62 of 66.
#3051 55 days ago
Quoted from Ferret:

I believe this thread has officially jumped the shark when posters are discussing whether they’ve received a totally different game from a totally different company.

What else is there? It’s turned into the hate thread. Raza is FINITO and people need an outlet for their misplaced rage. Simple as that

Everybody has gotten their refunds via CC

Might as well lump Lebowski into it and go after all those involved now. Mob rule. You all know it’s true.

The people that will downvote this post know it. Same group

Nobody ever really cares about a solution.

#3052 55 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

What else is there? It’s turned into the hate thread. Raza is FINITO and people need an outlet for their rage
Might as well lump Lebowski into it and go after all those involved now. Mob rule. You all know it’s true.
The people that will downvote this post know it. Same group

Raza is dead, but the aftermath is just beginning. There's easy 15-25k more posts to come on this thread.

#3053 55 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Me too. Can’t get there unless they are in the game

The fact that no one agrees with this says it all.

#3054 55 days ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Raza is dead, but the aftermath is just beginning. There's easy 15-25k more posts to come on this thread.
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If this is true it is a sad day in America.

I hope people have more in their lives than this.

#3055 55 days ago
Quoted from Ferret:

I believe this thread has officially jumped the shark when posters are discussing whether they’ve received a totally different game from a totally different company.

Because there is no more pinball moderators anymore.

Anything and everything is fair game these days.

And like they say everyone’s got one …is that aholeo or opinions ?? and everyone has to be right!

#3056 55 days ago

Since RAZA preorder topic is no longer abides let’s talk about what you are getting for Xmas! This thread should be good for that long now!

I’m planning on 2 new pinball machines….and YOu??

20
#3057 55 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Everybody has gotten their refunds via CC

Oh? Did the retirees get their money back via their CC company? Tone deaf.

#3058 55 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Since RAZA preorder topic is no longer abides let’s talk about what you are getting for Xmas! This thread should be good for that long now!
I’m planning on 2 new pinball machines….and YOu??

I’m getting a Cactus Canyon and Elwin game.

And happy to see a Lubbock guy getting his TBL today

#3059 55 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I’m getting a Cactus Canyon and Elwin game.

I too am getting CC.

#3060 55 days ago

I’m also interested in what AP and Nordman produce this fall.

#3061 55 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I’m getting a Cactus Canyon and Elwin game.
And happy to see a Lubbock guy getting his TBL today

I am getting another TBL (helping those EA's out) and an Aliens.

PS - great to see Lubbock's guy onboxing - way cool!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club/page/268#post-6473792

#3062 55 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

I am getting another TBL (helping those EA's out) and an Aliens.
PS - great to see Lubbock's onboxing - way cool!

You’ve had Aliens before and know how great it is!

Anyone that buys a TBL, for $12,500 nonetheless, is helping an EA get there game eventually.

Anyone that doesn’t like that can go pound sand.

TBL and Alien are two of my favorite pins of all time. It’s amazing how a tiny team created these pins. Is it any wonder why someone could imagine DR making a single pin? With all that money and people.

Pinball Brothers, Barry, AP and Haggis are doing it.

#3063 55 days ago

Oh and check out the Halloween thread too. Looks very cool with the new code update. That one makes #3 for me

-2
#3064 55 days ago

Glad to see most Raza customers are getting a refund on their credit card. My prediction that Deeproot Pinball would do forced refunds did not happen. No surprise there, since that would of been the honorable thing to do.
Overall the years I have not given Dutch Pinball a pass on their we will look after our early achievers. This shit continues on with very few pinball machines going out to them, while they pump out new sales. They should find another investor & finally get these people made whole. Talks about hiring more staff for future projects does not go over well with games sold & very few EA made whole.

#3065 55 days ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

They should find another investor & finally get these people made whole

This sounds like Deeproot thinking

"hey, put in all this money for no sales! invest now!" *facepalm*

Why would anyone invest to speed up EA sales? The company has already proven they are basically free of the EA burden and are doing it purely on their own merit.

Again with this bizarro world thinking...

#3066 55 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

What else is there?

There is nothing else. That is exactly my point in saying that this thread has jumped the shark.

If you wanna talk about American Pinball #4, or Alien, or Cactus Canyon, or Halloween, or Elwin's next game, or whatever, there are threads for that.

In this thread, seems like there's nothing else to discuss other than advising pre-order folks to claim refunds from their credit card companies. And feeling terrible for the retirees who have lost huge chunks of their retirement savings.

-1
#3067 55 days ago
Quoted from Ferret:

There is nothing else. That is exactly my point in saying that this thread has jumped the shark.
If you wanna talk about American Pinball #4, or Alien, or Cactus Canyon, or Halloween, or Elwin's next game, or whatever, there are threads for that.
In this thread, seems like there's nothing else to discuss other than advising pre-order folks to claim refunds from their credit card companies. And feeling terrible for the retirees who have lost huge chunks of their retirement savings.

Let’s discuss it. Over and over.

It’s not gonna end. Ever. Feel free to come up with something new.

But yeah, if you’d like to let us know what AP has in store for us next I’d MUCH rather hear that because this saga has been beaten into a pulp of collective shit

13
#3068 55 days ago

I am coming up with new things. Things that will actually be playable pinball games that get delivered to customers. That's my job.

But I'd rather discuss those things on appropriate threads.

#3069 55 days ago
Quoted from Ferret:

I am coming up with new things. Things that will actually be playable pinball games that get delivered to customers. That's my job.

Make an Ozzy pin

#3070 55 days ago
Quoted from Ferret:

I am coming up with new things. Things that will actually be playable pinball games that get delivered to customers. That's my job.

I know. Stick to it. I like my Oktoberfest a lot.

When you feel like jamming up DR people that did NOT get games delivered, not much else to say that hasn’t been beaten to death already. Unless you have something new to add here

Ideas?

13
#3071 55 days ago

Just to be clear, I am not at all happy that deeproot customers are not getting their games. The whole situation with this company is bad for our small industry overall, and bad for deeproot customers, and REALLY REALLY BAD for deeproot "575" investors.

I'm also not happy that a bunch of good work of David Thiel, and Barry Oursler, and Steve Bowden, and many other good employees, is likely lost forever.

-1
#3072 55 days ago

So what are others getting for Xmas?
Which pinball did you order?

#3073 55 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

So what are others getting for Xmas?
Which pinball did you order?

@ the guy with the HoHoHo avatar - Take it to the X-mas thread.

-1
#3074 55 days ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

[quoted image]

You may not understand it -and it is a stretch- but Iceman is right.

The way it is, there'll be new TBL games fr everybody and if the make enough money they will be able to fulfill EA Orders.

Yes it would be great if they could poop out money and just deliver the EA games this instant, but with the leftovers they have now they may deliver some of that games and then close down for good. What we have now is far better then anyone could have anticipated.

#3075 55 days ago

What I have learned from this thread:

#1. Don't invest in a start-up. Wait until they produce a pin.

#2 Refrain from sending pro-order money. If you do, use a credit card that allows charge backs.

#3 Don't ever buy into anything JPOP. He has proven time and time again to be a COMPLETE failure at producing pins.

#4 Spend less time on Pinside and more time enjoying the hobby and life in general. But while on Pinside, try to state your opinions without making
personal attacks.

#5 Pinball is HARD.

#3076 55 days ago

Seriously, can you imagine if DR had George Gomez instead of JPOP? What he could have done with tens of millions of dollars...

#3077 55 days ago
Quoted from Beechwood:

Seriously, can you imagine if DR had George Gomez instead of JPOP? What he could have done with tens of millions of dollars...

I don't know if any pinball company could dig out of a hole of tens of millions of dollars.

#3078 55 days ago
Quoted from Beechwood:

What I have learned from this thread:
#1. Don't invest in a start-up. Wait until they produce a pin.
#2 Refrain from sending pro-order money. If you do, use a credit card that allows charge backs.
#3 Don't ever buy into anything JPOP. He has proven time and time again to be a COMPLETE failure at producing pins.
#4 Spend less time on Pinside and more time enjoying the hobby and life in general. But while on Pinside, try to state your opinions without making
personal attacks.
#5 Pinball is HARD.

1. As a consumer - yes, if you ant to be safe. As an investor you have to to take a risk. But the difference here is that the investors didn't know what the money was invested in. -_-;

2. That ~1000$ for most here wouldn't kill them (different to the 200k from the original investors), but yeah. CC or order over a distributor.

3. Well he DID design a Zizzle pin.

4. Spend NO time on pinside. (Wait, what? Why am I here?!)

5. Srsly pinball is easy... IN COMPARISON to a car, wich much more parts walk into... but also is much more optimized/ standardized manufacturingwise.

-1
#3079 54 days ago
Quoted from Beechwood:

Seriously, can you imagine if DR had George Gomez instead of JPOP? What he could have done with tens of millions of dollars...

I wasn't there but from all my experience setting up car manufacturing "circumstances" I'd say it's mostly a management error, so related to RM.

The game itself (Raza) was more or less fully playable since 1,5 years ago.

#3080 54 days ago
Quoted from frolic:

I don't know if any pinball company could dig out of a hole of tens of millions of dollars.

I meant if George was there from the start.

#3081 54 days ago
Quoted from Beechwood:

I meant if George was there from the start.

Srsly it wouldn't have change the outcome a bit. That would've required RM to LISTEN.

Edit: And since this is pretty obvious someone like GG would've never went there (and in fact didn't).

#3082 54 days ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

AND.....That post is from 11 days ago, where you been, your late.

Excuse the hell out of me. I'm in the middle of moving houses and already at 14 hours of overtime for the week.

#3083 54 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Frax has to keep the hate flowing. They can’t let it go
Remember, they are protecting us poor dummies from ourselves. Lol

Please. I'm a hell of a lot nicer than you are most days.

10
#3084 54 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

@ the guy with the HoHoHo avatar - Take it to the X-mas thread.

Thanks Quarters!

Now what do you want for Xmas? Santa hears you want a Lawerence Welk pinball…

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#3085 54 days ago

Know deeproot did people wrong all around but....

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#3086 54 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

The way it is, there'll be new TBL games fr everybody and if the make enough money they will be able to fulfill EA Orders.

We all hope that proves to be true but just like with RAZA, some of us see red flags and have now become skeptics about TBL. I guess the DP believers and the naive will now label us as the mob and haters for that.

I hope I'm wrong, but right now it's shaping up to be a Ponzi scheme that ultimately can not sustain itself.

My compliments to Jeffspinballpalace who said it best.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

There is 0% transparency by Dutch Pinball’s progress filling orders for EA machines.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

My theory is they haven’t done this because if you put their numbers on paper, you’ll see their plan won’t work. Instead they will make and sell as many TBL’s at $12.5k and then declare bankruptcy. The number of EA’s left holding their IOU’s will number over 100. This might get take another year before it happens but when new buyers dry up, the fat lady will be done singing.

#3087 54 days ago
Quoted from Frax:

Please. I'm a hell of a lot nicer than you are most days.

I like you Frax despite your sometimes negative outlook. A fellow Texan. If you are ever down here in SA sometime come by and play some pinball and hang out. You’ll get to see the real Iceman that local pin guys know and my other friends on here.

What do you want for Xmas!

#3088 54 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I like you Frax despite your sometimes negative outlook. A fellow Texan. If you are ever down here in SA sometime come by and play some pinball and hang out. You’ll get to see the real Iceman that local pin guys know and my other friends on here.
What do you want for Xmas!

I'm purely talking about board behavior. I don't believe we have ever met in person, and I mostly keep to myself at TPF. I can tell you based on prior years' experiences I will not be wasting my time going to Wild Pitch or whatever this coming year, assuming it happens.....it always just ends up being my weird introvert ass with social anxiety hanging around the edge of the room with my wife and not talking to anyone. Total waste of time for me. ~_~ And I've made an actual effort to be less of an ass since my prior hiatus. I'm always down for meeting other Pinsiders, so if you're in Dallas (I don't travel much, odds of me ever being in SA for anything other than a game pickup are nearly zero) for TPF or whatever, just ping me and we can play a few games.

I also don't "do" Christmas. I hate receiving gifts from people more than I hate trying to figure out what someone else wants. I'd much rather just have a genuine honest conversation with someone than have them give me more junk I don't need. I'm hoping for a new job and to be fully moved and settled in by the end of the year...that would be more than enough for me!

#3089 54 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Thanks Quarters!
Now what do you want for Xmas? Santa hears you want a Lawerence Welk pinball…

[quoted image]

Only “squares” go for Welk. I’m a hip cat who knows Dick Contino is where it’s at.

#3090 54 days ago
Quoted from Mr68:

We all hope that proves to be true but just like with RAZA, some of us see red flags and have now become skeptics about TBL. I guess the DP believers and naive will now label us as the mob and haters for that.
I hope I'm wrong, but right now it's shaping up to be a Ponzi scheme that ultimately can not sustain itself.
My compliments to Jeffspinballpalace who said it best.

All perfectly possible but this still is our best hope that they'll eventually manage to pump all games out.

At least they (well "him" now) have proven that they're not giving up.

That's all LEAGUES above Deeproot!

#3091 54 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

All perfectly possible but this still is our best hope that they'll eventually manage to pump all games out.

Hope means nothing if you don’t have reality to back it up. Let’s say they have 100 EA games still to make. That’s 100 games they have to eat the cost on…are there that many more $12.5k TBLs that can sell to cover that? And even if so, how many decades will that take? Sorry - but we’re in DR territory in the sense that the numbers just don’t add up, and there is no definitive plan presented to the buyers that they can trust.

#3092 54 days ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Hope means nothing if you don’t have reality to back it up. Let’s say they have 100 EA games still to make. That’s 100 games they have to eat the cost on…are there that many more $12.5k TBLs that can sell to cover that? And even if so, how many decades will that take? Sorry - but we’re in DR territory in the sense that the numbers just don’t add up, and there is no definitive plan presented to the buyers that they can trust.

So based on this logic you are saying F the EAs- claim bankruptcy now, reorganize and come back stronger position like PB/Aliens is doing. That is the easiest path for DP. And with a great game like Aliens proves people will buy again - same would happen for Lebowski pin.

Why slug it out for years to try to make whole on your commitments - just give up now? Dang that sounds to admirable.

Instead bash them into bankruptcy? Again while I get the past is not ideal (& we can bitch about it - but we can’t change it) the only thing we can change is how we move forward. DP is trying to do the right thing - albeit to slowly at least they are trying.

And DP is not in DR territory- not even close. DP has a manufacturing line producing games!

I just don’t get people. WTF
Bitch bitch bitch.

#3093 54 days ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Hope means nothing if you don’t have reality to back it up.

You have. It's in the dictionary!

#3094 54 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999: And DP is not in DR territory- not even close. We have a manufacturing line producing games!

"We" - What's that about ? You have a production line in your garage you didn't tell me about ?

Wrong thread anyway. This WAS the Raza preorder thread.

All this Lebowski stuff is just like your opinion man.....

#3095 54 days ago

NOTHING is ever good enough for some of these whiners and complainers.

#3096 54 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Thanks Quarters!
Now what do you want for Xmas? Santa hears you want a Lawerence Welk pinball…

[quoted image]

Again wrong thread - but thanks. Unfortunately I now have some doubts about Welk getting made by Stern.

Apparently they took Welk from John Borg and gave it to Steve Ritchie. Steve got a little mad about it and quit Stern over the issue and went to JJP. Guess Steve didn't like it being the "old" guy and Gomez figuring he should be the one on Welk as he could relate most to the theme. Oh well.

Maybe somebody like AP can pick up on this theme and if so I'll be in ! I know they would do a great job.

#3097 54 days ago

I put the deposit down when deeproot was taking preorders.I used a credit card.So even after 8 months I can still get a refund?

#3098 54 days ago
Quoted from bmegar:I put the deposit down when deeproot was taking preorders.I used a credit card.So even after 8 months I can still get a refund?

Why are you asking us?

Call your credit card company.

#3099 54 days ago
Quoted from bmegar:

I put the deposit down when deeproot was taking preorders.I used a credit card.So even after 8 months I can still get a refund?

Only one way to find out

#3100 54 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

Again wrong thread - but thanks. Unfortunately I now have some doubts about Welk getting made by Stern.
Apparently they took Welk from John Borg and gave it to Steve Ritchie. Steve got a little mad about it and quit Stern over the issue and went to JJP. Guess Steve didn't like it being the "old" guy and Gomez figuring he should be the one on Welk as he could relate most to the theme. Oh well.
Maybe somebody like AP can pick up on this theme and if so I'll be in ! I know they would do a great job.

I have been working on the bubble topper for Welk pinball for the last 3 months.

I think Stern is still doing this theme. Did it go to AP now?

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