(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

3 years ago


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“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
    52%
  • Xtra 25 votes
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#3001 2 years ago
Quoted from DoorCounty:

You are conveniently assuming everyone is on Pinside or constantly researching the company they bought something from!

constantly researching?

so if I send you to a website and create a news articles about my brand new cool product you'll just send me 7-10k dollars direct?

Keep re-reading what you wrote until you realize how naive that makes someone look.

17
#3002 2 years ago

Enjoyed these threads a lot more before it became everyone attacking each other

#3003 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Enjoyed these threads a lot more before it became everyone attacking each other

I'm sure some people enjoyed the fantasy ride a lot more than when reality came knocking... Or the SEC...

-1
#3004 2 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

You didn't buy anything from anyone, you sent someone preorder money. And yea, it's normal due diligence to research something like a brand new pinball company, considering the failures of certain other brand new pinball companies, not to mention jpop himself.
If you're claiming to have done no research before sending money, you're pretty much admitting you're either lazy or stupid.

So are you calling those little old ladies stupid for not doing there research? Certainly they should have before investing their life savings into a company like DR!

FYI I do get what you are saying from my perspective as I research the hell out of stuff. My friends have told me many times you waste your time.

So bottom line I learned over the years, very few people do well their due diligence including those little old ladies!

#3005 2 years ago

What I ask myself to humour me:

1. Could anyone of us actually do worse then Deeproot given 30 million dollars?

2. So if next, let‘s say Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk discover their love for pinball and try to get JPops „it’s nearly done, 4th time‘s the charm, srsly now“ games built, would they go broke too? - Reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Homer get‘s to design a car and the company immediately goes bancrupt.

#3006 2 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

What I ask myself to humour me:
1. Could anyone of us actually do worse then Deeproot given 30 million dollars?
2. So if next, let‘s say Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk discover their love for pinball and try to get JPops „it’s nearly done, 4th time‘s the charm, srsly now“ games built, would they go broke too? - Reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Homer get‘s to design a car and the company immediately goes bancrupt.

Fastest way to become a millionaire? Start out as a billionaire and launch a pinball company!

#3007 2 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

1. Could anyone of us actually do worse then Deeproot given 30 million dollars?

That would be really difficult. For what there is to show after all the money spent... it was literal destruction of wealth.

#3008 2 years ago

I'm a Prime member with free shipping so I'll take Bezos

#3009 2 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

What I ask myself to humour me:
1. Could anyone of us actually do worse then Deeproot given 30 million dollars?
2. So if next, let‘s say Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk discover their love for pinball and try to get JPops „it’s nearly done, 4th time‘s the charm, srsly now“ games built, would they go broke too? - Reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Homer get‘s to design a car and the company immediately goes bancrupt.

....I tend to think that even if RM bought an existing company, with manufacturing capabilities like Spooky or Haggis for $[xx] million, he would have still run it into the ground through poor management.

17
#3010 2 years ago

As I noted a while ago, some of those who pre-ordered RAZA from deeproot during the very limited order window period were not stupid or uninformed. They didn't need the Pinside warnings. By that time they recognized that DR had no chance of financial success. They just hoped DR would squeeze out a few RAZAs before going under. The smartest of these paid in full in order to get their game moved to the top of the production order, to insure getting their RAZA in case only a very few were ever made. And they paid by credit card to lessen the risk so they would have a good chance of disputing the charge if they never got their game.

With this group now getting refunds from the credit card companies, rather than this discourage them from ordering from another unproven pinball startup, it could embolden them to do the same thing on the next new company's game no matter how sketchy the company looks. Figuring they'll either get a rare (and possibly collectible and/or valuable) game or they'll get their money back through their credit card.

22
#3011 2 years ago

The little old ladies, in many cases through investment advisors, invested in a fund that was based on buying up life insurance policies and using the death benefit to guarantee returns of 5% or 7%. Any due diligence they would have done, would NOT have shown he was a crook. Robert then took that money to fund his personal life style and his 'hobbies'. This is what the SEC is coming down on him for, not for pretending to be a pinball company. It is pretty cut and try that he did not do what he was legally required to do. Certainly some of those investment advisors are going to be in trouble for their lack of due diligence and follow up.

Robert clearly thinks he is the smartest guy around, which is obviously laughable. He likely thought, I can do what I want with this money as long as those old ladies get their 5% and pinball is easy, so no big deal. In a year, we will release multiple machines, will be printing money and everyone will be happy.

A few issues --

First and foremost, it is illegal to take that money and use it for something other than what investors were told. Even though he had a 10% 'can do other investments', he obviously went, way, way, way beyond that. Even beyond that, using it for personal expenses is obviously against he law, period, no ifs ands or buts.

Second issue -- pinball is NOT easy and there is long list of failed companies that prove that. It is also clearly way, way harder than he thought, especially given his total lack of knowledge and experience. He clearly had not clue how to build a manufacturing company as he tried to re-invent a world, he did not even understand to the slightest degree.

As far as JPOP, he is a creative flake and an opportunist, who has some kind of a jedi mind trick ability to convince people to see things that are not there. Probably one of the things Robert likes about him, they are kindred sprits in that way. They can can create vision that people want to be a part of, while the whole thing is just vapor. While his is a totally responsible for the zidware fiasco, he is not responsible for this financial fraud. He is in no way smart enough.

Any original zidware person who did not take the money when they had the chance and let it ride, well, hard to understand that. You got burnt, and then through a freaking miracle you had a chance to get your money back and you passed on it? Not sure what you were thinking, but you have no one to blame but the person looking back at your in the mirror and I think they all get and accept that.

Those who jumped in later, the red flags were everywhere, as Robert had yet to deliver on a single promise, commitment, anything what so ever that he ever said, other than refunding zidware folks who wanted it. The cherry on top was asking for trivial about of money on deposits -- why would he go back on the 'never take pre-order', for nickels and dimes? -- that to me was the biggest red flag of all. Getting on the roller coaster ride with him given all of that is just crazy, but seems most had an escape hatch via the credit card, so, I hope they enjoyed the ride and no one got hurt.

Hopefully Robert gets what he truly deserves. While I think the SEC stuff, will not be as bad for him as many think (e.g. probably won't put him in prison), I am sure the IRS, justice department, state attorney generals, the state bar associations, other government agencies and those little old ladies, will be lining up to get their shot at him, and those things will make the SEC stuff seem like a day in the park and will likely land him in prison for a long time.

#3012 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Enjoyed these threads a lot more before it became everyone attacking each other

Agreed.

#3013 2 years ago
Quoted from spoke:

The little old ladies, in many cases through investment advisors, invested in a fund that was based on buying up life insurance policies and using the death benefit to guarantee returns of 5% or 7%. Any due diligence they would have done, would NOT have shown he was a crook. Robert then took that money to fund his personal life style and his 'hobbies'. This is what the SEC is coming down on him for, not for pretending to be a pinball company. It is pretty cut and try that he did not do what he was legally required to do. Certainly some of those investment advisors are going to be in trouble for their lack of due diligence and follow up.
Robert clearly thinks he is the smartest guy around, which is obviously laughable. He likely thought, I can do what I want with this money as long as those old ladies get their 5% and pinball is easy, so no big deal. In a year, we will release multiple machines, will be printing money and everyone will be happy.
A few issues --
First and foremost, it is illegal to take that money and use it for something other than what investors were told. Even though he had a 10% 'can do other investments', he obviously went, way, way, way beyond that. Even beyond that, using it for personal expenses is obviously against he law, period, no ifs ands or buts.
Second issue -- pinball is NOT easy and there is long list of failed companies that prove that. It is also clearly way, way harder than he thought, especially given his total lack of knowledge and experience. He clearly had not clue how to build a manufacturing company as he tried to re-invent a world, he did not even understand to the slightest degree.
As far as JPOP, he is a creative flake and an opportunist, who has some kind of a jedi mind trick ability to convince people to see things that are not there. Probably one of the things Robert likes about him, they are kindred sprits in that way. They can can create vision that people want to be a part of, while the whole thing is just vapor. While his is a totally responsible for the zidware fiasco, he is not responsible for this financial fraud. He is in no way smart enough.
Any original zidware person who did not take the money when they had the chance and let it ride, well, hard to understand that. You got burnt, and then through a freaking miracle you had a chance to get your money back and you passed on it? Not sure what you were thinking, but you have no one to blame but the person looking back at your in the mirror and I think they all get and accept that.
Those who jumped in later, the red flags were everywhere, as Robert had yet to deliver on a single promise, commitment, anything what so ever that he ever said, other than refunding zidware folks who wanted it. The cherry on top was asking for trivial about of money on deposits -- why would he go back on the 'never take pre-order', for nickels and dimes? -- that to me was the biggest red flag of all. Getting on the roller coaster ride with him given all of that is just crazy, but seems most had an escape hatch via the credit card, so, I hope they enjoyed the ride and no one got hurt.
Hopefully Robert gets what he truly deserves. While I think the SEC stuff, will not be as bad for him as many think (e.g. probably won't put him in prison), I am sure the IRS, justice department, state attorney generals, the state bar associations, other government agencies and those little old ladies, will be lining up to get their shot at him, and those things will make the SEC stuff seem like a day in the park and will likely land him in prison for a long time.

Good post.

Couple of things though. As someone who didn’t take the $$$ as an original Zidware customer I can give you my reasons.

I had already written off the loss on my tax return and would have to recognize those refunds as income. PITA

Also, mentally, the $4950 was long gone and I didn’t NEED the funds so I rolled the dice with house money

Additionally, I knew, like many others knew, as I posted here MANY times, that DR pinball was being funded by the 575 fund and not Robert.

Finally, I liked the game especially after that last stream and wanted to keep it.

There was one point in time over a year ago after Bobby threatened me that I tried to give my game to the Pinball Project or he could shove it up his ass. Via emails

What changed? I had a conversation with his lawyer and just let it go. “Bobby was under great stress and went too far”

As far as funding some other game like Haggis, which I didn’t, but if I like the game I wouldn’t hesitate to do it again. See Yelobird explanation. Ditto that

As for the SEC being bad? Yeah it’s the tip of the spear that lays the predicate for everything else coming down on him.

Jpop? Who cares, he’s meaningless, to even act like he matters plays right into his ego

#3014 2 years ago
Quoted from littlecammi:

As I noted a while ago, some of those who pre-ordered RAZA from deeproot during the very limited order window period were not stupid or uninformed. They didn't need the Pinside warnings. By that time they recognized that DR had no chance of financial success. They just hoped DR would squeeze out a few RAZAs before going under. The smartest of these paid in full in order to get their game moved to the top of the production order, to insure getting their RAZA in case only a very few were ever made. And they paid by credit card to lessen the risk so they would have a good chance of disputing the charge if they never got their game.
With this group now getting refunds from the credit card companies, rather than this discourage them from ordering from another unproven pinball startup, it could embolden them to do the same thing on the next new company's game no matter how sketchy the company looks. Figuring they'll either get a rare (and possibly collectible and/or valuable) game or they'll get their money back through their credit card.

You said it before and now are saying it again. Spot on. People can’t seem to grasp it though

Squeeze out some Razas before going under. I figured they could last another year or two and would have but for the SEC

Based on what he did, I’m happy they shut him down when they did even though it meant the end of these games. So what, we all have plenty of other games to play!

19
#3015 2 years ago

Got my $10,769 back. Thank God for credit cards.
Also got my Big Lebowski in this week, which was racing RAZA. Dutch Pinball wins.

#3016 2 years ago
Quoted from NashtyFunk:

Got my $10,769 back. Thank God for credit cards.
Also got my Big Lebowski in this week, which was racing RAZA. Dutch Pinball wins.

"Early" Achiever?

#3017 2 years ago

Nah, just bought from cointaker last year in November.

Quoted from Bumper:"Early" Achiever?

#3018 2 years ago
Quoted from wesman:

I never understand when people live in coastal areas, and then disasters occur seemingly year after year, but....I feel fortunate

I don't live in a coastal area and we get hit by a huge natural disaster year after year. It's called winter. Not a joke. Winter costs a fortune. We don't notice it because it is part of the economy.

#3019 2 years ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

Hey Ben, what company you doing a gig for right now, contract, whatever? Full employee, part time, only contract?
Just remember, people remember. And I kind of now the people over there at CGC to.
I know it's pinside, but this isn't the wild west, everybody's looking. See what I did there.

Threatening someone's livelihood is even more of a douche move than anything he'd said to this point.

Quoted from cooked71:

Do you think there’s an alternate reality where Robert ends up in a special state correctional facility where instead of inmates making number plates they make pinball machines and all 122 RAZA owners are made good?

Is Robert the Loki of pinball?

remember when saying Jpoop was a bannable offense here? I do.

Quoted from DakotaMike:

People always came away feeling great after talking to Andrew Heighwey.

Ew? Really? When I went to IFPA Nationals in Vegas, he was there at the show. Dude seemed utterly zoned out and incapable of making a coherent statement. What little he said was gibberish, and as I stood there being underwhelmed by that motorcycle game (I can't even remember the name!!) he didn't even try to explain anything, or show off anything.

Good god I'm still 2 days behind on this thread...

#3020 2 years ago
Quoted from NashtyFunk:

Got my $10,769 back. Thank God for credit cards.
Also got my Big Lebowski in this week, which was racing RAZA. Dutch Pinball wins.

Congrats you are gonna love that TBL!

#3021 2 years ago
Quoted from NashtyFunk:

Got my $10,769 back. Thank God for credit cards.
Also got my Big Lebowski in this week, which was racing RAZA. Dutch Pinball wins.

Dutch still owes tons of people games that were paid for in 2014. You skipped the line & won your new shiny. Many are still suffering due to their lies & incompetence.

#3022 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Dutch still owes tons of people games that were paid for in 2014. You skipped the line & won your new shiny. Many are still suffering due to their lies & incompetence.

Ah, this old trope again. If new people don't keep buying TBLs, then old buyers won't get their games. Now I'm not current in whether Dutch is still actually making the Early Adopters whole or not. But that's the theory anyway. So don't make new buyers feel bad.

#3023 2 years ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Ah, this old trope again. If new people don't keep buying TBLs, then old buyers won't get their games. Now I'm not current in whether Dutch is still actually making the Early Adopters whole or not. But that's the theory anyway. So don't make new buyers feel bad.

Yes, they do their best and the Early Achievers get a machine worth at least $12,000 for which they only paid $8,500 (without tax during that time).

#3024 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Good post.
...

As far as funding some other game like Haggis, which I didn’t, but if I like the game I wouldn’t hesitate to do it again....

In some good news for boutique pinball, I know of two people who just received their new in box "celts" Haggis Pinball yesterday. Granted, I live in Australia, so shipping from Haggis pinball is quicker.

#3025 2 years ago
Quoted from Bumper:

Yes, they do their best and the Early Achievers get a machine worth at least $12,000 for which they only paid $8,500 (without tax during that time).

That's all on paper, and there are many many EA's still waiting, and will continue to wait for years. Don't make it sound like this is some financial windfall for them lol.

#3026 2 years ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Ah, this old trope again. If new people don't keep buying TBLs, then old buyers won't get their games. Now I'm not current in whether Dutch is still actually making the Early Adopters whole or not. But that's the theory anyway. So don't make new buyers feel bad.

LOL it’s not a trope. Dutch just wants dat new pin cash without taking more responsibility for their F up. They’ve only made like 10 EA games over the last year. They’re almost out of the 60s. I have a friend who’s like #170. He’ll be dead before he gets a game.

Not trying to make new buyers feel bad, but any time they’re like “my game finally showed up” or “why’s it taking so long”…I think they need some perspective.

#3027 2 years ago

It sounds like Dutch just gives out enough EA games to keep people quiet. Whatever happened to the one in three or one in four ratio that would be EA games?

I sure would not be putting Dutch on a pedestal just yet.

13
#3028 2 years ago
Quoted from cliff_clavin:

It sounds like Dutch just gives out enough EA games to keep people quiet. Whatever happened to the one in three or one in four ratio that would be EA games?
I sure would not be putting Dutch on a pedestal just yet.

There is 0% transparency by Dutch Pinball’s progress filling orders for EA machines. How many new games are being built and how many EA games have been delivered? How many games are actually being directed to EA’s. Example - If there are 160 ea games owed and 100 TBL’s have shipped in total and 5 of them went to EA’s and this has taken one year …. Something like this pinpoints where Dutch Pinball is. Dutch Pinball owes it’s creditors some answers after so many years of being jerked around.

My theory is they haven’t done this because if you put their numbers on paper, you’ll see their plan won’t work. Instead they will make and sell as many TBL’s at $12.5k and then declare bankruptcy. The number of EA’s left holding their IOU’s will number over 100. This might get take another year before it happens but when new buyers dry up, the fat lady will be done singing.

13
#3029 2 years ago

It’s pretty fucked up. They obviously have very little incentive to give games to the people they screwed 5 years ago so here we are.

Just another ongoing pinball scam. We can’t get enough, can we?

#3030 2 years ago
Quoted from littlecammi:

As I noted a while ago, some of those who pre-ordered RAZA from deeproot during the very limited order window period were not stupid or uninformed. They didn't need the Pinside warnings. By that time they recognized that DR had no chance of financial success. They just hoped DR would squeeze out a few RAZAs before going under. The smartest of these paid in full in order to get their game moved to the top of the production order, to insure getting their RAZA in case only a very few were ever made. And they paid by credit card to lessen the risk so they would have a good chance of disputing the charge if they never got their game.
With this group now getting refunds from the credit card companies, rather than this discourage them from ordering from another unproven pinball startup, it could embolden them to do the same thing on the next new company's game no matter how sketchy the company looks. Figuring they'll either get a rare (and possibly collectible and/or valuable) game or they'll get their money back through their credit card.

Just a fyi, what I learned (as a non-preorder RAZA pinsider) is ANY machine (or deposit on one or final payment on one, etc.) I buy from ANY distributor is going on CC for this purpose alone. Great advice to ALL pinball buyers in the future.

Protect yourself in these expensive transactions.

#3031 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

LOL it’s not a trope. Dutch just wants dat new pin cash without taking more responsibility for their F up. They’ve only made like 10 EA games over the last year. They’re almost out of the 60s. I have a friend who’s like #170. He’ll be dead before he gets a game.
Not trying to make new buyers feel bad, but any time they’re like “my game finally showed up” or “why’s it taking so long”…I think they need some perspective.

Understand, but I think people should respect what DP is doing (no matter how slow it is, especially EA's).

The EASY path (which 99% of people would have taken) is to declare bankruptcy and just go back into business under a new Pinball company PERMANTENLY screwing overall ALL EA's...period.

You say - well no one would buy from them....lol....because look at Alien (and yes PB was involved in that one before it went under).

#3032 2 years ago
Quoted from cliff_clavin:

It sounds like Dutch just gives out enough EA games to keep people quiet. Whatever happened to the one in three or one in four ratio that would be EA games?
I sure would not be putting Dutch on a pedestal just yet.

Certainly not a pedestal...........but respect what they are trying to do, because most people would not (they would hit the "EASY BUTTON"...bankruptcy).

#3033 2 years ago

But if they did that they wouldn't be able to make money selling lots of new $12,500 machines

-14
#3034 2 years ago

The DP situation is a win win for everybody.

To try and characterize any other way is just wrong, unless you don’t trust Cointaker either

#3035 2 years ago

It would if they kept their promise of 25% of new games go to EA but they’re so far from that number.

11
#3036 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The DP situation is a win win for everybody.

Marty-McFly.gifMarty-McFly.gif
22
#3037 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The DP situation is a win win for everybody.

JFC. Another Iceman endorsement.

-2
#3038 2 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

Threatening someone's livelihood is even more of a douche move than anything he'd said to this point.

No, I don't think so.Ben was giddy and pompous about guys losing money on games. Damn Happy about it.
I felt that was a douche move.
I also don't think I threatened him.
I implied that Everyone is watching your posts Ben. For a moment he was forgetting he's still in the industry.
AND.....That post is from 11 days ago, where you been, your late.

#3039 2 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

It would if they kept their promise of 25% of new games go to EA but they’re so far from that number.

Be appreciative it could be 0% like RAZA.
Or would you rather they fold shop and give in?

#3040 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

[quoted image]

I see you are confused as usual. . Along with the same handful of downvote haters that thrive on other people’s loss

TBL gets made, EAs get games and no bankruptcy.

Cointaker recoups some of their losses on TBL and Raza

Not that hard to grasp really. Barry hate?

#3041 2 years ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

No, I don't think so.Ben was giddy and pompous about guys losing money on games. Damn Happy about it.
I felt that was a douche move.
I also don't think I threatened him.
I implied that Everyone is watching your posts Ben. For a moment he was forgetting he's still in the industry.
AND.....That post is from 11 days ago, where you been, your late.

Frax has to keep the hate flowing. They can’t let it go

Remember, they are protecting us poor dummies from ourselves. Lol

#3042 2 years ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

No, I don't think so.Ben was giddy and pompous about guys losing money on games. Damn Happy about it.
I felt that was a douche move.
I also don't think I threatened him.
I implied that Everyone is watching your posts Ben. For a moment he was forgetting he's still in the industry.
AND.....That post is from 11 days ago, where you been, your late.

It was a douche move.

#3043 2 years ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

I implied that Everyone is watching your posts Ben. For a moment he was forgetting he's still in the industry.

Did you see the thumbs on your post? Bright eyed and bushy tailed Ben Heck is a National treasure!

#3044 2 years ago
Quoted from Kneissl:Did you see the thumbs on your post? Bright eyed and bushy tailed Ben Heck is a National treasure!

Maybe joe biden can pin a medal on the

20210402_155650 (resized).jpg20210402_155650 (resized).jpgScreenshot_20210902-210904_Chrome (resized).jpgScreenshot_20210902-210904_Chrome (resized).jpg
#3045 2 years ago

Happy to report BOA is issuing me a full refund of $614.40

Hopefully one day I can donate it to RM cellmate.

#3046 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I see you are confused as usual. . Along with the same handful of downvote haters that thrive on other people’s loss
TBL gets made, EAs get games and no bankruptcy.
Cointaker recoups some of their losses on TBL and Raza
Not that hard to grasp really. Barry hate?

No, as usual, your opinions seem just a bit...odd and a little off-base.

You're taking a negative situation, trying to put a positive spin on it like everything is all sunshine and rainbows and all problems are in the past, yet in reality, there are still significant and serious hurdles & issues that still need to be addressed.

That situation seems kind of like a guy in a race who celebrates too early and falls over before crossing the finish line.

the-price-of-early-celebration.gifthe-price-of-early-celebration.gif
-6
#3047 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

No, as usual, your opinions seem just a bit...odd and a little off-base.
You're taking a negative situation, trying to put a positive spin on it like everything is all sunshine and rainbows and all problems are in the past, yet in reality, there are still significant and serious hurdles & issues that still need to be addressed.
That situation seems kind of like a guy in a race who celebrates too early and falls over before crossing the finish line.[quoted image]

You are taking a positive situation and putting a negative spin on it. YOU are ODD and way off base. Always have been. Terrible attitude

That’s ok. Something is better than nothing.

There’s no finish line celebration with DP, just progress. And as they say, “progression is not linear”

You can’t get to the finish line if you aren’t in the race! You and little Kimmy don’t understand that?

Call Cointaker If you have an issue.

I’m going to enjoy playing my TBL right now

#3048 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

You are taking a positive situation and putting a negative spin on it. YOU are ODD and way off base. Always have been. Terrible attitude
That’s ok. Something is better than nothing.
Call Cointaker If you have an issue.
I’m going to enjoy playing my TBL right now

Well, once all the EAs are made whole, I'd be perfectly happy to celebrate with you.

#3049 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Well, once all the EAs are made whole, I'd be perfectly happy to celebrate with you.

Me too. Can’t get there unless they are in the game

19
#3050 2 years ago

I believe this thread has officially jumped the shark when posters are discussing whether they’ve received a totally different game from a totally different company.

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