Does anyone know who ends up paying when a credit card company refunds money? Does Amex stand in line with the other creditors?

Really hope not. Their contribution to pinball is the gold standard and Jeff is a really great guy.

While I'm glad people are getting their money returned, I view the past year of the Deeproot emotional roller coaster as a big loss for you guys. Pinside skeptics were often shameful IMO but pre-order guys dished some of the ugliness right back. The emotional grind between anger and hope, leading to hunkered down silence the past several months had to have been draining on pre-order people.

Sorry about my misguided part but it all traces back to Deeproot to state the obvious. And Pinside gonna be Pinside.

So was the calculated wager on RAZA really worth it even with getting your money back? Something is better than nothing but for what Deeproot put you guys through, I have to wonder.

genuinely happy for you. Also the more pinball people that can claw their funds back the better.

Yup.

Pinball was such an ancillary con here, and such a tiny drop in the bucket. I mean, it seriously seemed like Mueller was doing everything he could to DISCOURAGE people from buying into RAZA. The disastrous September launch (no Tex Mex buffet!), followed by the 20 day ordering window with the ridiculous NDA and waiver of refund in December. Plus, he tried to convince the remaining die hards to take refunds just a month or so ago. I don't think he really wanted to get any deeper into this pinball scam, he had bigger fish to fry and a bigger mess to clean up behind him. By this point, we are just a tiny footnote and afterthought.

Maybe I'm getting the timeline jumbled, but based on the Chernobyl photos we saw with the calendars and countdown clocks frozen in time, was the "RAZA FOMO" window in December happening when the Deep Root offices were already completely closed and no employees at all - whether "famous pinball designers" or lowly janitor - were still parking their cars in the lot?

Yes they do, and they are last as an unsecured creditor. They take the hit.

I’m curious under what policy a credit card company like Amex refunds a customer for a deposit (or paid in full) when the company doesn’t deliver the goods, particularly after some time has passed. I’d think the cc company would want to investigate before refunding. I don’t think it as easy as just calling the credit card company and saying I want my money back and the next day it’s in your account….or maybe (probably) I’m wrong here. It’s different than purchase protection AFAIK, such as when you buy something and it breaks or is stolen. Moreover, I thought there were limits on the protection in dollar terms and time, often like $1000 and 90 days. I couldn’t find anything on the Amex website. I’d be interested to learn about it. It might make me change my use of credit cards for large purchases.

Glad yelobird was able to get his funds back, seems Amex has some great customer service protection in place! I might have to get that card.

The REAL tragedy, RIP Texas Taco Town

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27 year member AMEX here. Very Loyal customer and the miles add up to 3 or 4 plane tickets per year.
Amex settled with us with in 24 hours of our covid vacation last year that got cancelled.
American Aiines only would do store credit, Amex fixed that too.

Tough to answer. For Me, (not speaking for others!) I made my decision and it was as easy as that. The emotion roller coaster you speak of (that I see) was the 30,000 plus posts of almost obsession. So if anything I felt no sorrow or remorse as I will simply buy a different toy. As for the “ugliness” you speak of yes there were a few that went over the top and oddly felt the need to make it personal with buying individuals which really was unnecessary. I admit I didn’t need to respond to a few of those individuals defensively but it was just simply Unnecessary to make this so personal! I nor Any DR Raza buyer took anyone’s money and I won’t be the guy to inappropriately poke the BHZA, Raza, Etc buyers for making a mistake. It’s just pinball. Just going to move on to the next game and enjoy time with family and friends.

Easy to say when you have 38 pins

Touché! Lol. Actually 39 Alien finally arrived! Such an addictive hobby.

I do think you could use some humility in all of this though.

I *could* go back in this very thread and start cherry picking posts that you made about how confident you were about getting your game, and how others who were critical were doing nothing but creating "FUD", and was nothing more than speculation etc.

In hindsight, can you at least admit that your confidence in getting your RAZA was misplaced?

I absolutely was confident based on the facts I was given including an airline ticket paid for by DR to visit. Things change so what? If you need an “I told you so” to feel good you win the game. Again, my decision wasn’t to sell you anything Or convince you otherwise hence (my decision). I was and still am confident I was not going to loose anything in trying!

"Lose."

?

What happens is a charge back. Deeproot would have been set up with merchant processing (credit card processing). Typically they take a card as payment and within a day or so Deeproot would have gotten a deposit in their bank account. In this case on a charge back the money would be taken from Deeproots bank account by the merchant processor to give back to the credit card company.

Come on…it’s a write off

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I wrote it off with Jpop right outta the gate. Kinda wish I payed more attention to what was going on... yet another pinball soap opera. pinbar seemed kinda neat i guess.

This doesn't make any sense unless I'm missing something. The FIRST thing DR did to try to get rid of some of the stench of Jpoop was to offer full refunds to his earlier "customers" (read:victims). When you've been taken for 5, 10, 20K and now you can get your money back? How often in life does this happen? In my estimation anyone with any sense at all would thank god and jump on that refund. Pronto. A miracle. And many did. No more "100% loss".

The ones that didn't? Well they took a gamble that they may end up with a "valuable, limited" collectable that they could flip later. Since nobody knew what it would play like... what other reason could there be? For the art? Whatever... but that was their choice.

Point is they certainly didn't need you to buy anything to "make them whole". In fact it could be argued that your confidence and positive vibes throughout this scam may have led some to later buy into the final pre-order and truly be unable to get that money back. But hey... they're adults and know the risk of a pre-order with a completely untested entity.

.

Great show on Kanedas podcast! up there with the Python TOPcast interview.

I hear what you’re saying but the pre-order slots sold out in a matter of minutes so, in my opinion, I don’t think it was possible to have much influence. Deep Root didn’t offer any more slots to buy later on if my memory serves correct.

Bingo. Then he goes away until he gets his money back while others are not so lucky. Because of his gamble someone other than deeproot will pay.

Many of the pre-order group were the so called voice of reason for others to rest assured and order. We are not rewriting this history.

Wrong. Deeproot gave weeks to order. They just had a cutoff date and only sold 100. No limit as I think they thought a thousand and I'm sure Robert was going to use this to pay other debts.

Right, but what if there is no money in the account they have registered with the cc company or closed the account and moved the money elsewhere? Given the spending by RM that was detailed in the SEC brief, I’d guess that deposit money was long gone. Weren’t deposits taken over 8 months ago?

The credit card processing company eats it if they can't get the money back from a bank account....depending on the amount they could go after the merchant (Deeproot).

You didn't make a mistake. You made a bet. You also lied. Why lie? I know you were hoping to get your game and have dr shut down, thus you bought 2. Quit trying to play the victim, you are as culpable as anybody in this thread if people lost money. And you'll do it again if history is any sort of judge.

Yeah, I'm sorry...it just doesn't sit right with me that somebody could put complete and utter stupidity on display, ignore all the warning signs that there was something fishy going on, ignore all the dirtbag stuff that Robert and DR were doing that was out in the open, wag their finger at us for saying negative things (ThInK oF tHe PoOr EmPlOyEes), start their own little hug box safe space, ect, ect the list goes on of downright scummy behavior exhibited by many of the buyers, just so they could get their shiny little game.

Then, when it turns out not only was the obvious correct, but it was far worse than imaginable (and thats saying something!) the smugness continues. No big deal guys. I didn't lose any money. I have zero remorse. Zero regrets. I didn't lose anything and it doesn't matter that I was complicit in supporting an obvious scam. Got my money back, time to go about my day and just pretend nothing happened and that I don't look like a moron for getting in on this and screw everyone else as long as at the end of the day I'm made whole again.

Am I a bad guy for feeling this way? Like, I'm trying to have empathy but honestly it makes me kind of sick to my stomach.

I'm fighting with chase visa. They don't understand this was a deposit with no timeliness on when the machine was to be delivered etc.

He did originally provide shipping timelines, all of which were missed. Hopefully providing those will be enough.

Bingo. And where is the apology from Iceman for his loud, arrogant and insulting behaviour. By far he was the biggest Deeproot cheerleader and the worst offender. He shows no sign of contrition and instead he's making excuses as if he knew all along.

Maybe he is too busy shredding documents furiously.

It gets charged back to the seller

He shows no sign of contrition and instead he's making excuses as if he knew all along.</blockquote

I wasn't aware that you have to apologize to Pinside for comments made here ?
its over ... nothing to see here ... move along !
total debacle , as confirmed by all

Every time I type gas lighting in google, it autocorrects to Iceman

I've made mistakes on Pinside of which I have apologised for both in public and in private. It's what adults do.

I just keep checking back in because Ice said we were only in the 3rd inning of this whole ordeal a couple of weeks or so ago. Are we in the 4th inning now? Has the game been cancelled on account of rain? I'm trying to keep score here.

This is still currently on deeprootpinball.com (get it while it's hot!). Could be helpful.

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"We plan to ramp up our lines in a slow, controlled manner..."

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I was cautiously optimistic when I saw Fliptronic's Twitch stream with a functional, playable table. The business history and too many red flags like the NDA previews (Review embargoes are never a good sign), the PinPod announcement (Really?), and general lack of communication or manufacturing pictures/updates still kept me from preordering. Delays in manufacturing happen, more so with COVID and chip shortages, although it would be expected that they would attempt to keep up hype with media posts. In hindsight it all makes sense.

Putting all the drama aside it's still a bummer. The table looked interesting and seemed like a CV 2.0, and JPop designed some of my favorite tables.

Agreed, although it felt more like a solution in search of a problem. I'm all for companies innovating, although if I were an operator I'm not sure a touch screen is something I'd want on a table. Talking to local arcade owners and hearing horror stories of kids hanging off of extended plungers and bending rods, drinks/food over glass...yikes. Seems like it would be expensive to replace, and doesn't add enough value over the current flipper button, start/action, LCD/DMD display process that currently exists.

I liked that the cabinet was visually different, although they invested a ton into the cabinet side art technology which is usually sandwiched between other machines. Same with the short LED screen. Why do machines need a backglass in this era? JJP has the right idea, just make the whole backbox a display with speakers and be done.

The stuff they showed looked great. The wrap around look on the backbox was very cool.

I need you to apologize for saying you apologised.

I blame spell checker.

F off.

Some of you people need to let it go and not have DR run and control your daily lives.

Kind of pathetic really. Doesn’t surprise me though.

Glad to see Yelo pop back up and get your Amex refund.

I was going to come find you and have a few beers with you to celebrate but we can do that at TPF if you come

As for Jeff at TWIP, there were some you blaming him for NOT uncovering this sooner and being too positive in his coverage. Idiots that I’m sure were behind some of the anonymous threats

If any of you have the balls, send me a pm and I’ll give my cell phone # if you have something specific you’d like to get off your chest. Because it’s making you sick or something. I’d hate for that to continue.

^^^^^^^
Let's imagine how both threads would be flowing right now if RAZA's had been shipped.

I’m not allowed to PM you

Imagine the shit show had they built them but hadn’t shipped them yet, then the SEC came knocking on the door.

beg pardon much?

This is just a depressing thread, and the deeproot part is sadly the least part of it.

Yelobird finally discusses his situation, and the attitude seems more "throw him on the fire too!" than anything else.

Customers wanting a game, are the least to blame. The pyramid that flattened us, starts at the top, and heads downward. People who preordered and cheerleaded are NOT complicit in fraud, no matter what past histories existed with the massive baggage of this company.

I have no clue, and DO NOT CARE, what the sideline critics here that did NOT preorder a game do with their money, their lives, their occupations, other interests, etc. So why on earth do they seem to relish self congratulatory back slapping via kicking a fellow enthusiast, and long time modder, and all around pretty positive forum member?

People that worked and got paid, somewhat complicit in this shitstorm, but largely there is ONE person responsible for this mess, and it certainly isn't anyone that bought into his grandiose ideas and claims, and hoped to buy a game.

Only on Pinside/online can people get screwed over, and then told they need to repent and apologize for being screwed. What in the ever living fuck???

The mob tried to cancel TWIP and they may have been successful. Why?

You said it, “What in the ever living fuck”

I had a game coming from DR as a result of getting F Ed by Jpop in 2014.

Apologize for that? F that.

All the Debbie Downvoters can vote away. Like I said, have some balls and pick up the phone if it disturbs you that much.

Yelo? Way too nice of a guy and I commend him for basically just letting it go while he gets piled on by the mob

My Alien came yesterday and it is terrific. Going through a distributor isn't a risk.

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Yeah....but that game overcame many hurdles for it finally to arrive at your doorstep. Not exactly the best counterpoint, like getting a Stern.

Besides why does your joy at getting a game need to illustrate again, that other people got cornholed? Is that a fun analogy to make?

(Somewhat illusory point, but I'm fortunate to live in an area of the country that isn't suffering to wildfires and hurricane induced flooding. Events that almost happen annually, sadly, at this point. Should I take joy in their suffering?

I never understand when people live in coastal areas, and then disasters occur seemingly year after year, but....I feel fortunate I don't suffer from those occurrences, and it's upsetting that someone's entire fucking HOUSE and everything in it, and those in it, can be lost. So a pinball game not getting to me, right now...not so much the worst thing.)