(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

10 months ago


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  • 248 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 days ago by ronaldvg
  • Topic is favorited by 89 Pinsiders

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“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
    52%
  • Xtra 25 votes
    48%

(52 votes)

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There are 3272 posts in this topic. You are on page 58 of 66.
#2851 58 days ago
Quoted from frankmac:

People did say Raza will not work out.. But understand that Robert always responded to my emails and was positive about what the Deeproot team was working on. This is the reason 119 out of 122 will lose $$$ on this.. Myself included.
This was my last email from Robert on 8-11-21.
[quoted image]

Yeesh. 9 days before the SEC release.

This also confirms the cell phone I found for him.

#2852 57 days ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

This also confirms the cell phone I found for him.

Well, he may have a cell phone now, but he won't have a phone in his cell at the end of all this.

#2853 57 days ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Yeesh. 9 days before the SEC release.
This also confirms the cell phone I found for him.

Is it active?
I would be calling to find out what’s up if I had a deposit.

#2854 57 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Is it active?
I would be calling to find out what’s up if I had a deposit.

Voicemail greeting was Robert. Didn't leave a message.

#2855 57 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Is it active?
I would be calling to find out what’s up if I had a deposit.

What's the point? Liar's gonna lie.

25
#2856 57 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

What are you talking about? That’s all I said from day one, posted the SEC filings every year, that it was coming from the 575 fund and not Robert personally

Yes you did, along with commentary.

Quoted from iceman44:

Despite Robert bringing much of the hate on himself they have the money and resources to finish this and continue on.

Quoted from iceman44:

Pinball is just one aspect of the Deeproot 575 fund that is not going “bankrupt”

Quoted from iceman44:

Robert has bigger overall concerns with that 575 fund and no way is he worried about walking away with a few pinball deposits. That will never happen.

12
#2857 57 days ago

Here's another.

Quoted from iceman44:

Wrong. There are no direct investors.

Report from FA Financial Advisor
"The scheme, which played out between 2015 and February 2021, involved nearly 300 investors, many of whom were retirees, the SEC said.

The SEC complaint alleged that Mueller and deeproot Funds were investment advisors to two pooled investment funds that Mueller created. According to the complaint, Mueller and deeproot convinced the investors to cash out annuities and individual retirement accounts they held with other investment companies and put the assets in his two funds."

#2858 57 days ago
Quoted from frankmac:

People did say Raza will not work out.. But understand that Robert always responded to my emails and was positive about what the Deeproot team was working on. This is the reason 119 out of 122 will lose $$$ on this.. Myself included.
This was my last email from Robert on 8-11-21.[quoted image]

You went to the source to get some answers and he was denying any big problems only a few weeks ago and that somehow this "legal mess" wasn't his creation and he could resolve it quickly. Days later the building is empty and of course we now know the scope of the "legal mess".

I'm curious, at the time you received his email, how did you receive his words then? Did you believe him?

10
#2859 57 days ago
Quoted from frolic:

You went to the source to get some answers and he was denying any big problems only a few weeks ago and that somehow this "legal mess" wasn't his creation and he could resolve it quickly. Days later the building is empty and of course we now know the scope of the "legal mess".
I'm curious, at the time you received his email, how did you receive his words then? Did you believe him?

Simple answers = Yes with doubts.

Reason for that is I had a very open direct line of communication with RM via dozens of email and phone conversations that always keep me hopeful with Deeproots progress. (No other options anyway)

The emails are very descriptive including the amount of games sold during the pre-order back in January. (#122)

We also discussed a few design options like limited color laser etched numbers on the apron of all machines so that the owners would have special machines. (Supposedly this etching machine is in the factory)

As far as I could tell the Deeproots team/employees were busy producing these pins and just a few key parts and shipping would begin. (Better then no news or bad news)

It really sounded like this was very close to happening.

-2
#2860 57 days ago
Quoted from frankmac:

Simple answers = Yes with doubts.
Reason for that is I had a very open direct line of communication with RM via dozens of email and phone conversations that always keep me hopeful with Deeproots progress. (No other options anyway)
The emails are very descriptive including the amount of games sold during the pre-order back in January. (#122)
We also discussed a few design options like limited color laser etched numbers on the apron of all machines so that the owners would have special machines. (Supposedly this etching machine is in the factory)
As far as I could tell the Deeproots team/employees were busy producing these pins and just a few key parts and shipping would begin. (Better then no news or bad news)
It really sounded like this was very close to happening.

Call me up. I can tell you what you want to hear too…

#2861 57 days ago
Quoted from frankmac:

It really sounded like this was very close to happening.

It's really unfortunate when we get betrayed by people. I certainly understand wanting to take someone at their word when they directly answer you. Hard to protect yourself from that type of deceit.

When I think about my time with jpop at Zidware, he stopped answering the questions he didn't want to answer. He dribbled out crumbs of art on a regular basis to show "progress". He never said he was weeks away from delivering my machine.

#2862 57 days ago
Quoted from LORDDREK:

Call me up. I can tell you what you want to hear too…

Thanks for the kind advise.

#2863 57 days ago

One common aspect of all cons is the immediate demand for money. There is a tight deadline given, usually now, and money is due if you want the product. There is not enough time allowed to wait around and see if the company is doing what it has promised. So you have to act blindly and with full faith. Conversely, if you find yourself in a pressure situation demanding that you act and spend money right away and you don’t feel comfortable, don’t act. Let the opportunity pass and see how things pan out and then make a move. There is always a chance to buy a HUO or even NIB pin later. The same goes for buying Stern nib. Make sure you want it before you buy it.

12
#2864 57 days ago
Quoted from frankmac:

This is the reason 119 out of 122 will lose $$$ on this.. Myself included.

Based on my experience, as long as you paid by credit card, you will get your money back. Or you should. When you protest a sizable charge to your CC company they ask for proof and you sending them the SEC indictment should easily cover that.
I'm not sure about Paypal but with such strong evidence it's more than worth trying.

2 of the pre-order guys I've spoken with have their appeals under way and their CC company's are already talking green light.

#2865 57 days ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Based on my experience, as long as you paid by credit card

The time frame here isn't years either. I'd say good odds.

#2866 57 days ago

Yeah if you purchased with a CC I’d be hitting up the CC Co, unless you still believe there’s a chance you’re getting a RAZA

BCDD2E70-068A-4A4E-87AD-24F1213BC6CA (resized).png

#2867 57 days ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

I put in an order with Yelobird to help support him in these trying times

I assume you’re just pulling our legs, and didn’t really place an order? Why would you tell us what you’re REALLY doing with your money? It’s none of our business, right?

#2868 57 days ago
Quoted from frankmac:

Simple answers = Yes with doubts.
Reason for that is I had a very open direct line of communication with RM via dozens of email and phone conversations that always keep me hopeful with Deeproots progress. (No other options anyway)
The emails are very descriptive including the amount of games sold during the pre-order back in January. (#122)
We also discussed a few design options like limited color laser etched numbers on the apron of all machines so that the owners would have special machines. (Supposedly this etching machine is in the factory)
As far as I could tell the Deeproots team/employees were busy producing these pins and just a few key parts and shipping would begin. (Better then no news or bad news)
It really sounded like this was very close to happening.

#2869 57 days ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

Yeah if you purchased with a CC I’d be hitting up the CC Co, unless you still believe there’s a chance you’re getting a RAZA
[quoted image]

Well, there’s always .....

#2870 57 days ago
Quoted from LORDDREK:

Call me up. I can tell you what you want to hear too…

Always 1 Assh**e in the group..

#2871 57 days ago
Quoted from BigBalls:

Always 1 Assh**e in the group..

Well, the thing is, a lot of these scammers are good at convincing people that everything is fine. Especially over the phone. That's one of their tricks.

People always came away feeling great after talking to Andrew Heighwey.

#2872 57 days ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

I assume you’re just pulling our legs, and didn’t really place an order? Why would you tell us what you’re REALLY doing with your money? It’s none of our business, right?

I have faith that he will deliver the product. I haven't received any shipping notifications yet though

#2873 57 days ago
Quoted from LORDDREK:

Call me up. I can tell you what you want to hear too…

Quoted from BigBalls:

Always 1 Assh**e in the group..

He's a correct asshole. Being willing to accept reassurances from the scammer is one key to getting scammed. Of course RM is going to tell you what you want to hear, he wants more of your money! What else is he going to say?

Folks need to listen to everyone, including the critics.

#2874 57 days ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Yes you did, along with commentary.

Man can Ice scrub and purge all of his all post???

#2875 57 days ago
Quoted from frankmac:

. (Supposedly this etching machine is in the factory)
.

LMAO..."factory"...

The ease with which these pinball con men can lie to their marks borders on the sociopathic. We've seen it so many times now.

It really is such a thin line. It's so EASY to be a fuckin criminal and steal people's money. I've done ok in this hobby, but I can't help but wonder how much more wealth I would have acquired if I was just willing to lie to everybody, all of the time.

#2876 57 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

LMAO..."factory"...
The ease with which these pinball con men can lie to their marks borders on the sociopathic. We've seen it so many times now.
It really is such a thin line. It's so EASY to be a fuckin criminal and steal people's money. I've done ok in this hobby, but I can't help but wonder how much more wealth I would have acquired if I was just willing to lie to everybody, all of the time.

Probably 58 million give or take..

#2877 57 days ago

Worked on this picture YEARS ago...

OPM script (resized).JPG
#2878 57 days ago
Quoted from frankmac:

Thanks for the kind advise.

Hey I’m sorry you took that the wrong way but I hope you understood what I’m saying regardless…

#2879 57 days ago
Quoted from BigBalls:

Always 1 Assh**e in the group..

Lol you read his post and think I’m wrong? You got some serious sensitivity between the legs man. Clearly smoke was being blown up his ass. Sorry my wise crack didn’t cup em the way you like…

#2880 57 days ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Yes you did, along with commentary.

All 100% spot f ing on!!!!

The SEC came in and stopped the Ponzi. Granted, I did not know how bad it really was. Nobody did. The employees certainly didn’t.

Hard to believe he was that stupid

I’ve got plenty of “commentary” on how this was funded and structured from day one

#2881 57 days ago
Quoted from Yesh23:

Man can Ice scrub and purge all of his all post???

Yeah I don’t need to purge anything. Go read em all from day one if it makes the haters happy.

Post em up. Every comment

#2882 57 days ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

Yeah if you purchased with a CC I’d be hitting up the CC Co, unless you still believe there’s a chance you’re getting a RAZA
[quoted image]

I haven’t talked to anyone that’s actually lost anything because of that. Maybe someone walked into DR with a bag of cash but I highly doubt it.

I know some of you guys get off on hoping people lose money here but if anybody did it’s “nominal”

The investors in DR, that’s another story and as I always said the MUCH BIGGER PICTURE

#2883 57 days ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Here's another.

Report from FA Financial Advisor
"The scheme, which played out between 2015 and February 2021, involved nearly 300 investors, many of whom were retirees, the SEC said.
The SEC complaint alleged that Mueller and deeproot Funds were investment advisors to two pooled investment funds that Mueller created. According to the complaint, Mueller and deeproot convinced the investors to cash out annuities and individual retirement accounts they held with other investment companies and put the assets in his two funds."

FFS!!! Ignorance is bliss right? If so you are some happy happy campers

No “direct investors” into the pinball company. Not ONE of those 300 had a clue. And I posted about many times for years

Go back and read the whole context but it appears you are having difficulty with reading comprehension.

And they still have the money to “finish it off”. The SEC rightly shut it down

#2884 57 days ago

Images.

9D6C8C2B-7137-4278-91C3-80CEDE186758 (resized).jpegDA364D4E-EE3A-480E-A80D-7D64598CABF1 (resized).jpeg
#2885 57 days ago
Quoted from hank527:

Images.
[quoted image][quoted image]

The clouds look great in that first picture.

EmotionalOnlyGoldfinch-size_restricted.gif
#2886 57 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

FFS!!! Ignorance is bliss right? If so you are some happy happy campers
No “direct investors” into the pinball company. Not ONE of those 300 had a clue. And I posted about many times for years
Go back and read the whole context but it appears you are having difficulty with reading comprehension.
And they still have the money to “finish it off”. The SEC rightly shut it down

#2887 57 days ago

You read my mind.

10
#2888 57 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Yeah I don’t need to purge anything. Go read em all from day one if it makes the haters happy.
Post em up. Every comment

I did just that, and Ice, I owe you an apology. I was wrong for saying that you said the 575 wasn't funding the pinball division. Quite the opposite, you said that it likely was indeed funding it. I could explain why I thought you had said it didn't, but it doesn't matter. I was wrong. My bad man

#2889 57 days ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

I did just that, and Ice, I owe you an apology. I was wrong for saying that you said the 575 wasn't funding the pinball division. Quite the opposite, you said that it likely was indeed funding it. I could explain why I thought you had said it didn't, but it doesn't matter. I was wrong. My bad man

That’s a nice gesture Haymaker. (Not being sarcastic). Thumbs up in my book.

14
#2890 56 days ago

So it appears DR will likely not pull out of this tailspin so as planned I simply executed the emergency chute (out plan) and in only 3 days AMEX confirmed the “lack of product delivered” and Fully refunded every penny. I waited for the full remittance of payment before advising which is now complete. So #kklank (the second order a few were so bothered by?) we are fully refunded without loosing a moment of sleep on or any investigation. We liked to call it a bet but in all honesty the wager bet was hedged with AMEX so it was a win either way. Deposit is already transferred to CCrLE so still ends up a win to me. Anyone with a CC deposit or full payment just call your CC company. Took Maybe 3 minutes to do! Simple.

As a closing statement I will answer (for Me) the why did I buy question. (Granted it was still my decision so it doesn’t matter?)
1. It was a cool ass game! I personally liked the changes and opted to judge it on My Opinion not that of others. I did however find it odd that so many called it crap, etc even though many were first round buyers or even in on the original project? Odd. Nonetheless I thought it would be an interesting title to share with friends and visitors.
2. Much like TBL. (For me) I viewed this long shot as a very small possibility to make those that invested (and lost) in Zidware Some chance to get Something for their loss. At the start of DR they had Nothing with only a 100% loss. My wager (like the current TBL) was IF enough people supported this game they Could possibly catch a Hail Mary and possibly be made whole to some extent. I (as was #kklank) willing to bet on Them. Sadly the play (wager) didn’t pan out but I would do it again!

We (KK and I) hedged a bet on DR. Didn’t loose any money but sadly his side investors (and past) did so still not a happy ending unfortunately.

53
#2891 56 days ago

Buying a pinball machine isn’t supposed to be “a bet.”

I just don’t get this mentality. It promotes the continued creation of these unending pinball scams.

Glad you got your money back at least. I wonder if the elderly investors charged their $58 million via Amex.

#2892 56 days ago
Quoted from kklank:

As I’ve already stated, I

People did say Raza will not work out.. But understand that Robert always responded to my emails and was positive about what the Deeproot team was working on. This is the reason 119 out of 122 will lose $$$ on this.. Myself included.
This was my last email from Robert on 8-11-21.[quoted image]

Either he's a liar asshole or a complete moron. Neither is good.

#2893 56 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

So it appears DR will likely not pull out of this tailspin so as planned I simply executed the emergency chute (out plan) and in only 3 days AMEX confirmed the “lack of product delivered” and Fully refunded every penny.

ED5150D4-77E4-40BF-B40E-1055DDAB2CD5.gif
#2894 56 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Buying a pinball machine isn’t supposed to be “a bet.”
I just don’t get this mentality. It promotes the continued creation of these unending pinball scams.
Glad you got your money back at least. I wonder if the investors charged their $58 million via Amex.

I said that jokingly as many were referring to it as a bet. I noted Why I bought a machine. I just buy what I like if it’s what I want. I bet on horses and in Vegas. As for the “other” fund management investors while sad not really something I or we had any control of.

19
#2895 56 days ago

The main takeaway from Yelobird's post for me is that AMEX kicks ass.

#2896 56 days ago
Quoted from RobT:

The main takeaway from Yelobird's post for me is that AMEX kicks ass.

Wonder if anybody who paid with a lowly Visa card was able to claw back their “lottery ticket.”

#2897 56 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Wonder if anybody who paid with a lowly Visa card was able to claw back their “lottery ticket.”

Yes. Another “buyer” friend used MasterCard same refund result. Apple Card I think?

#2898 56 days ago
Quoted from RobT:

The main takeaway from Yelobird's post for me is that AMEX kicks ass.

My takeaway (complaint) is that we sadly lost Jeff over this shit (as a final nail in the coffin it seems).

https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-hiatus/

#2899 56 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Buying a pinball machine isn’t supposed to be “a bet.”
I just don’t get this mentality. It promotes the continued creation of these unending pinball scams.
Glad you got your money back at least. I wonder if the elderly investors charged their $58 million via Amex.

Just like when I buy a pinball from other companies I could careless about who there investors are. Not my worry.

Do you track down Stern, JJP, etc investors??

Of course no one wants to see what happened to DR investors, but focus to your point on why you would buy a game. Not for a bet, not for investors, etc. Buy because it is a theme you like.

And buy on a CC is the lesson.

#2900 56 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

My takeaway (complaint) is that we sadly lost Jeff over this shit (as a final nail in the coffin it seems).
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-hiatus/

Well at least he didn't say it was permanent.

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