(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

11 months ago


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  • 3,298 posts
  • 253 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 12 days ago by jeffspinballpalace
  • Topic is favorited by 89 Pinsiders

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“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
    52%
  • Xtra 25 votes
    48%

(52 votes)

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#2801 3 months ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I wonder if Jpop had anything to do with killing Zizzle?

Wouldn't think so. The hurdle Zizzle faced is it was made for the toy market rather than commercial electronics. Vastly different rules in play with the manufacturer assuming the responsibility for unsold inventory (so they reskin the same product and put it out again). High volume is a necessity as the markup is that much lower and the chainstore distributors dictate the terms. Even Nintendo lost millions this way by marketing the Game & Watch as a 'toy'.

#2802 3 months ago
Quoted from NevadaNutJob:

And , as always , vote with your wallet . When you feel it’s too much - don’t buy it .

That’s a good point. If you are comfortable paying $5k for nib then you’ll need to wait a year and pickup a huo game. Not only will it cost less than msrp, but you avoid sales tax. Many benefits to this approach including ability to inspect playfield.

#2803 3 months ago
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

Wouldn't think so. The hurdle Zizzle faced is it was made for the toy market rather than commercial electronics. Vastly different rules in play with the manufacturer assuming the responsibility for unsold inventory (so they reskin the same product and put it out again). High volume is a necessity as the markup is that much lower and the chainstore distributors dictate the terms. Even Nintendo lost millions this way by marketing the Game & Watch as a 'toy'.

The size of the toy alone made it a massive uphill climb. They could put a dozen moderately priced smaller toys on a shelf instead of the one (relatively) super expensive toy. It’s no surprise they eventually sold them for sub $100 just to clear out space in stores.

#2804 3 months ago
Quoted from frolic:

Despite the promise of "Ferrari at Kia prices" the deeproot prices were above market, and rising fast (they announced the pre-order prices were "intro").

Fair point in regards to deeproot.

I do think alien at 7777$ looks better when a premium stern is at 9k.

#2805 3 months ago

I put in an order with Yelobird to help support him in these trying times

#2806 3 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

I put in an order with Yelobird to help support him in these trying times

Why? He was vocal at convincing others to support Deeproot. I like him as a person though his views were way skewed and he shares some responsibility in this mess.

#2807 3 months ago
Quoted from hank527:

Why? He was vocal at convincing others to support Deeproot. I like him as a person though his views were way skewed and he shares some responsibility in this mess.

I don’t think anybody who ordered a RAZA this time around has anybody to blame but themselves. I mean most of the buyers were pretty clear they knew they were “rolling the dice” and strapping in for the ride. I don’t remember any evangelicals this time around trying to talk anyone else into taking the plunge.

And even if there were there were a chorus of “are you nuts?!?!” Ringing throughout the land when deep root finally started asking for money.

10
#2808 3 months ago
Quoted from hank527:

Why? He was vocal at convincing others to support Deeproot. I like him as a person though his views were way skewed and he shares some responsibility in this mess.

Yelo was buying an investment, 100% and paid full for 2x xtras, hoping to get to the front of the line and get his pins before dr folded, making his pins the rarest.. He lost the bet, x2

#2809 3 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Yelo was buying an investment, 100% and paid full for 2x xtras, hoping to get to the front of the line and get his pins before dr folded, making his pins the rarest.. He lost the bet, x2

But hey, he can get Stern’s version of the pinbar just announced today! Coming soon…advertisements and ability to order your bar food through it! Beer please..
6CC82354-BDC4-46BB-ACAF-62A5BB6ACFFF (resized).pngFC7C04E5-F562-4997-A2BD-C68B1F08001B (resized).png

#2810 3 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

But hey, he can get Stern’s version of the pinbar just announced today! Coming soon…advertisements and ability to order your bar food through it! Beer please..
[quoted image][quoted image]

I want a burrito, ordered through the SternBar(tm) and delivered by a local, highly rated Food truck.

#2811 3 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

But hey, he can get Stern’s version of the pinbar just announced today! Coming soon…advertisements and ability to order your bar food through it! Beer please..
[quoted image][quoted image]

Would you be so kind as to post this info Into the dr positive vibes thread? It may have sunk dr, but Stern is gonna give it a go, so that's a positive, right?

#2812 3 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Would you be so kind as to post this info Into the dr positive vibes thread? It may have sunk dr, but Stern is gonna give it a go, so that's a positive, right?

No positive here, less about pinball and more about other sources of revenue.

#2813 3 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

No positive here, less about pinball and more about other sources of revenue.

Dr positives, are actually negatives. As in, well, dr may have stolen from grandma, but there's a good chance, it wasn't from YOUR grandma

#2814 3 months ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

That’s a good point. If you are comfortable paying $5k for nib then you’ll need to wait a year and pickup a huo game. Not only will it cost less than msrp, but you avoid sales tax. Many benefits to this approach including ability to inspect playfield.

I'm afraid that you're behind the times. That used to be true, but it's been almost a year since you could by newish Stern Pros for that kind of money.

I know, because that was always my strategy. Bought a barely used SW Comic Pro for $4900. Bought a barely used Elvira Prem. for $7k. Those days are gone...at least for now.

#2815 3 months ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

I'm afraid that you're behind the times. That used to be true, but it's been almost a year since you could by newish Stern Pros for that kind of money.
I know, because that was always my strategy. Bought a barely used SW Comic Pro for $4900. Bought a barely used Elvira Prem. for $7k. Those days are gone...at least for now.

Yeah buy HUO save a couple hundred bucks these days. If you are lucky enough that the original owner didn’t pack the game with alligator clip garbage they expect you to pay for.

#2816 3 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

I want a burrito, ordered through the SternBar(tm) and delivered by a local, highly rated Food truck.

I think you mean chimichanga........

#2817 3 months ago
Quoted from Plungerboy:

I think you mean chimichanga........

Yup, Deadpool delivers it in person

#2818 3 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yeah buy HUO save a couple hundred bucks these days. If you are lucky enough that the original owner didn’t pack the game with alligator clip garbage they expect you to pay for.

Hey now, I’ve gotten some good repair money off fixing alligator clip mods that shorted the game out after being jostled during shipping.

Long live lazy mod installers

#2819 3 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Hey now, I’ve gotten some good repair money off fixing alligator clip mods that shorted the game out after being jostled during shipping.
Long live lazy mod installers

LOL. True. The clip mods are often touted as being easily reversible, but desoldering a wire isn't really here hard thing.

But I get it. It certainly is easier to just clip on. And it's generally fine as long as the game is stationary, and doesn't have a shaker!

#2820 3 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I don’t think anybody who ordered a RAZA this time around has anybody to blame but themselves. I mean most of the buyers were pretty clear they knew they were “rolling the dice” and strapping in for the ride. I don’t remember any evangelicals this time around trying to talk anyone else into taking the plunge.
And even if there were there were a chorus of “are you nuts?!?!” Ringing throughout the land when deep root finally started asking for money.

I’ve stated before that I knew I was taking a chance and rolling the dice. I also agree 110% that I have nobody to blame but myself. I lost out on Raza.
The thing I wasn’t aware of was that I had no idea RM was a thief.

I also have nobody to blame but myself for receiving an email that my Alien will be arriving any day now and I’m very excited because I rolled the dice. So I’m
1 for 2. I’m in no way suggesting that I know more than anybody else about pinball. Far from it, I just decide to take a chance.
I also bought into Haggis. I may lose my money there too. We’ll see.

#2821 3 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

I’ve stated before that I knew I was taking a chance and rolling the dice. I also agree 110% that I have nobody to blame but myself. I lost out on Raza.
The thing I wasn’t aware of was that I had no idea RM was a thief.
I also have nobody to blame but myself for receiving an email that my Alien will be arriving any day now and I’m very excited because I rolled the dice. So I’m
1 for 2. I’m in no way suggesting that I know more than anybody else about pinball. Far from it, I just decide to take a chance.
I also bought into Haggis. I may lose my money there too. We’ll see.

Just remember you can always pick up a SternBar in the future that mimics the Pinbar. Coming soon on Stern games….

#2822 3 months ago
Quoted from hank527:

Why? He was vocal at convincing others to support Deeproot. I like him as a person though his views were way skewed and he shares some responsibility in this mess.

He shares some responsibility in this mess?
That’s a bit of a stretch, don’t you think.
Yelobird is solid and very helpful to everyone in this hobby. He along with everyone else simply wasn’t aware that RM was embezzling.
There is one person and one person only that is responsible and that is Robert Mueller.
The stockholder of the company bears the sole responsibility to make sure no one plays with the working capital in the operating account.
The employees most likely had no access to the operating account and had no idea either what was happening. And either did Yelobird.

#2823 3 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Just remember you can always pick up a SternBar in the future that mimics the Pinbar. Coming soon on Stern games….

I rather just pick up a Snickers Bar and grab a brew and call it a day.

#2824 3 months ago

I keeping hearing this $750,000/month burn rate in terms of monthly payroll.
That seems really really high.
How many employees did rm have specifically at deep root pinball?

#2825 3 months ago

I mean, in fairness, many of us were assuming the money was coming from the investors in deeproot funds. It was the only logical explanation. The only reason we had to doubt it at all was because iceman kept saying it wasn't happening.

#2826 3 months ago
Quoted from Plungerboy:

I think you mean chimichanga........

DeadPools chimis did deliver!!

#2827 3 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

I’ve stated before that I knew I was taking a chance and rolling the dice. I also agree 110% that I have nobody to blame but myself. I lost out on Raza.
The thing I wasn’t aware of was that I had no idea RM was a thief.
I also have nobody to blame but myself for receiving an email that my Alien will be arriving any day now and I’m very excited because I rolled the dice. So I’m
1 for 2. I’m in no way suggesting that I know more than anybody else about pinball. Far from it, I just decide to take a chance.
I also bought into Haggis. I may lose my money there too. We’ll see.

And you deserve all that comes your way.

Serious question, do you know what hydrofoils and Andrew Heighway have in common? Have you fully read up on Alien and its pitfalls? I hear someone is looking to get out of TB,L you could be that lucky someone!

#2828 3 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

And you deserve all that comes your way.
Serious question, do you know what hydrofoils and Andrew Heighway have in common? Have you fully read up on Alien and its pitfalls? I hear someone is looking to get out of TB,L you could be that lucky someone!

What’s TB,L

#2829 3 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

I keeping hearing this $750,000/month burn rate in terms of monthly payroll.
That seems really really high.
How many employees did rm have specifically at deep root pinball?

Read the whole sewer thread, as you come across as uneducated. As a vocal pre-order supporter, you probably would not have asked this question, if you had. We were asking the question when RM put that $$$ out there, which I guess he thought would impress? It didnt..

#2830 3 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

And you deserve all that comes your way.
Serious question, do you know what hydrofoils and Andrew Heighway have in common? Have you fully read up on Alien and its pitfalls? I hear someone is looking to get out of TB,L you could be that lucky someone!

As I’ve already stated, I agree with you.
As for Alien, I’ve owned the original and now am getting the new one. It’s a terrific game.
I can see you don’t like to take a lot of risks because you own one game. That’s cool.
TB,L??? You mean The Big Lebowski?? I’ve owned 2 Lebowskis. That game is spectacular. Terrific code, just needs a little more depth.

#2831 3 months ago

My bad. I have rights to the 4th dr game, TB. To Be Determined. I fat fingered this..

All pre order, kickstart, go fund me can be sent to: [email protected].

thx!

-1
#2832 3 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Read the whole sewer thread, as you come across as uneducated. As a vocal pre-order supporter, you probably would not have asked this question, if you had. We were asking the question when RM put that $$$ out there, which I guess he thought would impress? It didnt..

Yeah no it didn’t. But I don’t follow this whole thing as close as others. I just simply wanted a game.
My reaction to the money he through out(750k burn) was that he was stretching the truth to include all of his employees that were under the Deep Root thread.
Basically to make it sound like Deep Root pinball was bigger than it actually was. Which imho was the case.

#2833 3 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

As I’ve already stated, I agree with you.
As for Alien, I’ve owned the original and now am getting the new one. It’s a terrific game.
I can see you don’t like to take a lot of risks because you own one game. That’s cool.
TB,L??? You mean The Big Lebowski?? I’ve owned 2 Lebowskis. That game is spectacular. Terrific code, just needs a little more depth.

Cool, I have yet to see either and Alien or TBL(Damn grammar Nazis when on a small kb) anyway. As far as 1 or 100 pins, I dont speculate on the value of pins. Youve got the $$$ to buy and sell on a whim, thats cool man. I prefer to not lose money...

#2834 3 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Cool, I have yet to see either and Alien or TBL(Damn grammar Nazis when on a small kb) anyway. As far as 1 or 100 pins, I dont speculate on the value of pins. Youve got the $$$ to buy and sell on a whim, thats cool man. I prefer to not lose money...

The funny thing about all these new games. I’ve done okay(meaning I haven’t lost money) on Alien and TBL. I always came in at the end of the cycle not the beginning.
It’s all the Sterns and restoring older games that I lose money on. Nobody wants to pay you for what you put into a restored game.

#2835 3 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

The funny thing about all these new games. I’ve done okay(meaning I haven’t lost money) on Alien and TBL. I always came in at the end of the cycle not the beginning.
It’s all the Sterns and restoring older games that I lose money on. Nobody wants to pay you for what you put into a restored game.

This is very true. I couldn't give Munsters pro away it seemed. I took a big hit on that.

#2836 3 months ago
Quoted from Yoreland:

This is very true. I couldn't give Munsters pro away it seemed. I took a big hit on that.

Lol. Yeah I only lost a couple hundred bucks but I bought and sold that game within 3 days. That’s the only time I’ve ever sold a game so quick. For me anyway, I could immediately tell the code was not for me.

#2837 3 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

The funny thing about all these new games. I’ve done okay(meaning I haven’t lost money) on Alien and TBL. I always came in at the end of the cycle not the beginning.
It’s all the Sterns and restoring older games that I lose money on. Nobody wants to pay you for what you put into a restored game.

Very true about restored games. Unless you are HEP, then people wanna pay you lol. But those games usually take a bit of a hit too when time to see to the next person.

Regarding the $750/month burn — that was pretty early on, when Robert had hired a bunch of designers, funding all the animations and in a large expensive building. Nobody knows what he was actually burning of course but who the f, as a new company with no product to sell, brags about burning $$$ like that? It was absurd at the time, and more absurd now that we know he was bragging about blowing thru stolen cash. There was zero effort to control or manage any costs so I wouldn’t be that surprised if $750k a month wasn’t that far off from reality

#2838 3 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

We were asking the question when RM put that $$$ out there, which I guess he thought would impress? It didnt..

It didn't? I was really impressed by the stupidity. Even with no (pinball)business experience at all, I couldn't get the numbers to make any sense. Sell 5000 games a year at a price of 1500 higher than variable costs each (and that at KIA prices for a Ferrari ) and they'd still lose money each year. How many games was RM thinking of selling?
Did he do any math at all?

#2839 3 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

But hey, he can get Stern’s version of the pinbar just announced today! Coming soon…advertisements and ability to order your bar food through it! Beer please..
[quoted image][quoted image]

That first image shows OJ lit up - do you get Orange Juice or does a infamous killer come to your machine ??

Which one are you going to get ?

-1
#2840 3 months ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

Very true about restored games. Unless you are HEP, then people wanna pay you lol. But those games usually take a bit of a hit too when time to see to the next person.
Regarding the $750/month burn — that was pretty early on, when Robert had hired a bunch of designers, funding all the animations and in a large expensive building. Nobody knows what he was actually burning of course but who the f, as a new company with no product to sell, brags about burning $$$ like that? It was absurd at the time, and more absurd now that we know he was bragging about blowing thru stolen cash. There was zero effort to control or manage any costs so I wouldn’t be that surprised if $750k a month wasn’t that far off from reality

Yeah I disagree.
I could be wrong but I feel he was counting ALL of his employees from ALL of his companies into that specific 750k a month for payroll comment not just “Deep Root Pinball”.
So if he said just “Deep Root” was spending that 750k a month in payroll, he may have been telling the truth because that meant all the employees under the Deep Root umbrella but nobody picked up on it which is what everyone is confused about.
That’s why it would be great to hear an ex-employee say how many people worked there.
Even if you’re including some gigantic space of say 20,000 square feet, the cost per square foot is probably only like 12 bucks a foot/gross or 8 bucks triple net. So you’re only adding maybe an extra 20k a month to total monthly overhead. (Haggis for example, moved into their new and much bigger space and it was 12,000 square feet.)
Easy enough to figure out, just look at the PPP loans he received and the different Deep Root companies should be itemized with individual amounts cash amounts he was granted. It’s been a while, but the amount received would have been for 8 weeks of payroll with a max of 100k/employee(anything over that amount, the govt. wouldn’t grant that money to the company)so the calculation wouldn’t be a 100% correct but probably close.

#2841 3 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

I could be wrong but I feel he was counting ALL of his employees from ALL of his companies into that specific 750k a month for payroll comment not just “Deep Root Pinball”.
So if he said just “Deep Root” was spending that 750k a month in payroll, he may have been telling the truth because that meant all the employees under the Deep Root umbrella but nobody picked up on it which is what everyone is confused about.

I think it was very muddy, because it seemed like Robert's plan all along was for the animation studio to create video games (most likely an app) that took those same assets that were for pinball to be used in a game. It's sort of akin to nintendo making super mario, and then also making a pinball machine (except the other way around). It's a hell of an ego to think that was going to work out, but I think in his mind he had so many businesses he figured why not do the same when it comes to creating entertainment.

#2842 3 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

But hey, he can get Stern’s version of the pinbar just announced today! Coming soon…advertisements and ability to order your bar food through it! Beer please..
[quoted image][quoted image]

Aprons now will look like crap. I do not want it at all. This plus jacking up premiums a grand more. After Godzilla I am done. Was going to trade in my MBr SE for Jurassic Park premium. It is going to be an even trade.

But Now reconsidering because I now will have to pay a grand out of pocket because of price increase and not sure if the movie mod will even work now with new code to support that stupid QR code reader.

Should have been a stupid add on that comes with a new apron like stern did with Stranger Things UV kit

#2843 3 months ago
Quoted from Yoreland:

This is very true. I couldn't give Munsters pro away it seemed. I took a big hit on that.

Funny now you can’t find a Munsters pro for sale. I wanted Munsters on theme alone and played it, hated it. That’s why I try before I buy if I can. Halloween is my first purchase without trying it first. Fingers crossed.

#2844 3 months ago
Quoted from BallyKISS1978:

I try before I buy if I can. Halloween is my first purchase without trying it first. Fingers crossed.

So you're saying that for you Halloween could turn out to be a trick or a treat?

#2845 3 months ago

Dunning and Kruger may be able to shed some light on what’s happened here.

https://www.verywellmind.com/an-overview-of-the-dunning-kruger-effect-4160740

“Essentially, low ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their own capabilities.”

#2847 3 months ago

Anyone paying a deposit for a start up company pin is making a foolish decision.

Haggis, DP, PB, anyone who haven't yet built a large number of pins

Roll the dice guys. Hope it works out. But things can happen... Car accidents, illnesses, unforeseen problems. Not saying it won't work out, but why even take the chance at this point. Makes no sense from everything we have all seen.

Just wait then buy. You won't miss out on anything.

#2848 3 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

I mean, in fairness, many of us were assuming the money was coming from the investors in deeproot funds. It was the only logical explanation. The only reason we had to doubt it at all was because iceman kept saying it wasn't happening.

What are you talking about? That’s all I said from day one, posted the SEC filings every year, that it was coming from the 575 fund and not Robert personally

#2849 3 months ago
Quoted from Beechwood:

Anyone paying a deposit for a start up company pin is making a foolish decision.
Haggis, DP, PB, anyone who haven't yet built a large number of pins
Roll the dice guys. Hope it works out. But things can happen... Car accidents, illnesses, unforeseen problems. Not saying it won't work out, but why even take the chance at this point. Makes no sense from everything we have all seen.
Just wait then buy. You won't miss out on anything.

I agree there is more risk dealing with the boutiques or newbie companies. Usually a deposit is put down to reserve the game and this amount is at risk of being lost. Read again this is 100% at risk. But when final payment is required at the time of manufacturing, it is at this point when the risk of a con comes into play. The company collects money and then they must build and ship the game. You have faith that they have parts, skill, availability and integrity to build your pin. This critical step is the most dangerous point in time because at this time, every single pinball con has gone bad. They receive the money and then nothing gets built.

So your relationship with that boutique or newbie manufacturer is critical. You need to support only those whom are legit and sincere and ones that won’t lie to you. If they say we are ready to build your pin are they telling yo the truth? For that reason, I only deal with new companies when they have proven themselves or who at least appear legit. I don’t deal with dishonest companies/people. Those usually come with many red flags if you keep your eyes open. Don’t ignore the red flags, rather pivot and run the opposite direction. If you fall into a trap, admit defeat, change direction and try to get your money back. By doing this my record is 6-0.

Predator Never sent deposit to Pirate of PinCONning, despite loving theme Win
RAZA Never sent deposit to JPOP under Zidware because JPOP too scatterbrained Win
TBL Sent full payment to Phil. Phil left and Credit card returned payment Win
Alien Sent deposit under HP. Credit card returned deposit Win
Alien Purchased PB built game from CoinTaker shipment & received game Win
RAZA Never sent deposit to deeproot Win

Currently have a deposit on Fathom remake, and I will be verifying games are shipping before paying balance due because Haggis is a new unproven company. Also have deposit on H and have played sample games, so no worries about it being produced by Spooky.

#2850 3 months ago

People did say Raza will not work out.. But understand that Robert always responded to my emails and was positive about what the Deeproot team was working on. This is the reason 119 out of 122 will lose $$$ on this.. Myself included.

This was my last email from Robert on 8-11-21.

602C5DB0-6E94-45FB-8430-488ECC4B7124 (resized).jpeg
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