(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

11 months ago


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  • 253 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 days ago by jeffspinballpalace
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“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
    52%
  • Xtra 25 votes
    48%

(52 votes)

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#2151 3 months ago
Quoted from arcademojo:

I thought this was the pre-oreder club?
So how many people that didn't pre-order just jump in here to start trouble for those that did?

It gets boring circle jerking with the same people after a spell.

13
#2153 3 months ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

There’s no legit factory that’s going to make games & the head of the company has gone into “hiding”, so the point is moot. If you’re concerned about people making trouble for the pre-orderers, take it up with RM & JP…they’re the cause of any and all troubles.

There is no legit company that is going to make anything on a contract basis. Supply constraints, lack of workers and logistics costs are all real. In my industry, shipping a container has gone for 3500 to 20,000 in just a couple of years. We have other manufacturers reaching out to us to private label, something we are known for doing, it is a no. We are now allocating orders based on past history, something we have never done.

I don’t know how else to say this but DR has nowhere to turn. Every manufacturer is at capacity, supply chain is broken and acquiring parts is impossible. DR not setting up supply chain with vendors is the straw that broke the back.

Also I really dislike the I told you so. I hate seeing the vitriol in this thread. I hope that DR delivers RAZA and makes everyone who has sent them money whole. Robert’s arrogance is very distasteful, but the dislike for him shouldn’t carry over those who decided to purchase.

#2154 3 months ago

This is why I love you brother Ted! . And other reasons like just being a good dude

But titties come in handy when you need them

#2155 3 months ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Just posting what I may know or not towards RAZA. Anyone in on it can decide for themselves. I will be around to guide groups if they seek out my pinball knowledge. Which is what I am doing now. There are likely a number of new pinball upstarts in 2022 with games. The waters are not cold anymore! Just like new Fathom games, & others in the pipeline.

No offense, but you keep offering your services. 1. They aren't going to take you up on it, and 2. Why the eff would you tie yourself to this disaster?

19
#2156 3 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Can they complete games and ship them out going forward? All it takes is more money.

ICE - I respect your opinion, but this is where you are wrong.
Takes a lot more than just cash to get a manufacturing company off the ground.
As long as Robert is captain, the ship is going to sink no matter how much money they load onboard

#2157 3 months ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

ICE - I respect your opinion, but this is where you are wrong.
Takes a lot more than just cash to get a manufacturing company off the ground.
As long as Robert is captain, the ship is going to sink no matter how much money they load onboard

Totally agree here. Obvious blind-spot shared here between Ice and RM. It takes much more than money to get things done. The individual with the deep pockets needs to have the ability to hire the right people. Needs to know how to distinguish between the walkers and the talkers. This is RM’s #1 mistake. This is why he ended up with an entire board of decision makers at Deeproot Studios that couldn’t agree on anything.

15
#2158 3 months ago

Can we get back to discussing this Germany/Pearl Harbor thing?

#2159 3 months ago
Quoted from gliebig:

Can we get back to discussing this Germany/Pearl Harbor thing?

#2160 3 months ago
Quoted from gliebig:

Can we get back to discussing this Germany/Pearl Harbor thing?

Boom! Now you’re talking! Lmao.
It’s never over.
I’m going down with the ship baby!

#2161 3 months ago

Food Fight!!!!

#2162 3 months ago
Quoted from gliebig:

Can we get back to discussing this Germany/Pearl Harbor thing?

Sure. Here it is for you guys that somehow missed it over the last 40 plus years.

#2163 3 months ago

Might as well have some of Robert's excuses to go along with that last video...

#2164 3 months ago

Classic!!

#2165 3 months ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

I just want to hear RM say this before he closes the doors “Pinball is very fkn difficult”

Oh I would much rather hear Ben say... " "

#2166 3 months ago

Oops wrong topic, I feel sorry for you guys....

16
#2167 3 months ago

This is my daughter Jill and her dog Tartine. Tartine is a attention hound. Long live Deeproot and may it never close

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#2169 3 months ago

Was that the dude that was going to make that ridiculous Cthulu pin with the trim on the BACK of the head, and everyone told me I was full of it when I said that thing will never be released? I can't even keep these a-holes straight anymore.

#2170 3 months ago
Quoted from Frax:

Was that the dude that was going to make that ridiculous Cthulu pin with the trim on the BACK of the head, and everyone told me I was full of it when I said that thing will never be released? I can't even keep these a-holes straight anymore.

LOL, nah, Vonnie D was making something called "Pinball Gremlins"...it crashed and burned pretty quickly with a failed Kickstarter and one of the two guys involved went to jail. Not sure whatever happened to Vonnie D...but the other guy is now an anti-vax maniac trying to launch a social media platform now...because, of course.

The Cthulu thing was from something called "The Rebel Unit"...not sure what happened to that. Probably nothing. They haven't had an update since 2015.

#2171 3 months ago
Quoted from Frax:

Was that the dude that was going to make that ridiculous Cthulu pin with the trim on the BACK of the head, and everyone told me I was full of it when I said that thing will never be released? I can't even keep these a-holes straight anymore.

He was the guy that took over $100,000 of Kickstarter money to make something called Pinball Gremlins and ended up doing time for canaboids.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2065029795/pinball-gremlins-pinball-machine

#2172 3 months ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

LOL, nah, Vonnie D was making something called "Pinball Gremlins"...it crashed and burned pretty quickly with a failed Kickstarter and one of the two guys involved went to jail. Not sure whatever happened to Vonnie D...but the other guy is now an anti-vax right-wing maniac trying to launch a social media platform now...because, of course.
The Cthulu thing was from something called "The Rebel Unit"...not sure what happened to that. Probably nothing. They haven't had an update since 2015.

Remember the Vonnie D playfield insert cut outs? Looked like they used a hacksaw. Poorly.

#2173 3 months ago

Never give up!

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#2174 3 months ago

So my other group has gone radio silent over 12 days ago. They were really picking my brain on production of new pinball machines. I still have a firm believe that they are either starting up or possible contractor for Deep Root. Deep Root has not been in official talks with me since the early days when I was interested in working remotely from Canada. If someone buys out Deep Root, likely games could be built in 6 - 12 months either by the new owners or contractors.
The group that bought out my playfield & glass business are up to interesting things. Should be a interesting announcement later this year. Also I will continue to guide any upstarts or existing pinball companies towards better production of playfields, & other parts.
Things have drastically changed since WMS exited the pinball market. There is room for more smaller upstarts, if they are properly funded & managed. If you look at Spooky & Haggis as a example you start at that maximum size or 50%. Grow the production from there. Wish there were inside pictures of Bader who works on Spooky games. But Spooky & Stern are keeping some secrets on playfield production to themselves. Put the heat on JJP, & Mirco!

#2175 3 months ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

So my other group has gone radio silent over 12 days ago. They were really picking my brain on production of new pinball machines. I still have a firm believe that they are either starting up or possible contractor for Deep Root. Deep Root has not been in official talks with me since the early days when I was interested in working remotely from Canada. If someone buys out Deep Root, likely games could be built in 6 - 12 months either by the new owners or contractors.
The group that bought out my playfield & glass business are up to interesting things. Should be a interesting announcement later this year. Also I will continue to guide any upstarts or existing pinball companies towards better production of playfields, & other parts.
Things have drastically changed since WMS exited the pinball market. There is room for more smaller upstarts, if they are properly funded & managed. If you look at Spooky & Haggis as a example you start at that maximum size or 50%. Grow the production from there. Wish there were inside pictures of Bader who works on Spooky games. But Spooky & Stern are keeping some secrets on playfield production to themselves. Put the heat on JJP, & Mirco!

Question - why so “vague” on who?

-1
#2176 3 months ago

Both groups want to remain quiet at this time. One is very active that bought me out & are getting prepared just like early Spooky stage. The other one could be Deep Root, a new up start company, or maybe someone is pulling a joke on me! Very strange with that group in that we were talking when things still seemed ok with Deep Root. Then Deep Root goes into the shitter & they pull out of talks. How coincidal is that along with some other facts I will keep quiet on for now.

Pinball is hard, but it can be done. A new upstart could sell 1000+ if everything looks mostly there. Or someone could buy out Deep Root & deep six anything they had planned. Time will tell likely next year.

I should of included all the other pinball companies, along with Stern that have manufactured games. Shows that most can do it, along with a few dreamers who failed (JPOP) & scammers.

#2177 3 months ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Both groups want to remain quiet at this time. One is very active that bought me out & are getting prepared just like early Spooky stage. The other one could be Deep Root, a new up start company, or maybe someone is pulling a joke on me! Very strange with that group in that we were talking when things still seemed ok with Deep Root. Then Deep Root goes into the shitter & they pull out of talks. How coincidal is that along with some other facts I will keep quiet on for now.
Pinball is hard, but it can be done. A new upstart could sell 1000+ if everything looks mostly there. Or someone could buy out Deep Root & deep six anything they had planned. Time will tell likely next year.
I should of included all the other pinball companies, along with Stern that have manufactured games. Shows that most can do it, along with a few dreamers who failed (JPOP) & scammers.

Ah ok, imho, I would think you should let the topic fade so you don’t expose anyone or anything more.

#2178 3 months ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Then Deep Root goes into the shitter...

Please elaborate. Do you have actual facts to back this up or is this just more speculation?

#2179 3 months ago

Well it seems like Deep Root is in the shitter from their recent actions. What more do you need. They are not showing any production pictures, claiming major legal issues, furlough their employees, & no recent drive by the headquarters. Not a expert but seems like it is dire now! Maybe they should roll out the Raza built games that are there to inside the glass doors. That would be a sign that there still alive!

-5
#2180 3 months ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Well it seems like Deep Root is in the shitter from their recent actions. What more do you need. They are not showing any production pictures, claiming major legal issues, furlough their employees, & no recent drive by the headquarters. Not a expert but seems like it is dire now! Maybe they should roll out the Raza built games that are there to inside the glass doors. That would be a sign that there still alive!

So just more speculation...got it.

#2181 3 months ago

No pins, no employees, legal issues, the building crumbled to the ground and burned but the roof is somewhat intact. Must be more speculation

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#2182 3 months ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

No pins, no employees, legal issues, the building crumbled to the ground and burned but the roof is somewhat intact. Must be more speculation
[quoted image]

That's a great gif. Implodes so elegantly.

I thought the worry *this* time also had to do with them scrubbing their FB account, LinkedIn account, etc...

24
#2183 3 months ago

Probably nothing to worry about. Normal companies ramping up to release their first product do so successfully by removing all their social media just prior to launch

41
#2184 3 months ago

Am I the only one that has to read greatwichjohn’s posts twice and I still remain utterly confused? Total space cadet.
You seem nice man! But WHAT in blue blazes are you talking about?!

10
#2185 3 months ago
Quoted from Scandell:

Am I the only one that has to read greatwichjohn’s posts twice and I still remain utterly confused? Total space cadet.
You seem nice man! But WHAT in blue blazes are you talking about?!

Ok have to agree with that one. Thought I was the only one that didn’t have a clue what he was talking about post after post. Lol

#2186 3 months ago
Quoted from Scandell:

Am I the only one that has to read greatwichjohn’s posts twice and I still remain utterly confused? Total space cadet.
You seem nice man! But WHAT in blue blazes are you talking about?!

Seems clear to me, the people he thought might be helping him help deeproot have suddenly disappeared from his life, kind of how deeproot has disappeared from all your lives. This coincidentally happened right when dr disappeared it's social media.

Then a hint the people who bought his business out are close to announcing something.

Then some "pinball isn't that hard if you actually use your head" bits.

-8
#2187 3 months ago

What I am saying is if you think Raza is totally dead you could be wrong in the long term. Only if Deep Root goes under, or if someone buys out the remains & shelves everything that was done over the years. We find out that Raza still needs more money to get it fully working (no pinbar), & fully coded.

A new upstart is likely to start with 1 or more other pinball projects of their own to get their name going. Raza if available & money backing could be done when ready. Either a small amount 100, or 1000+ run. Most new companies will follow the model of a title in production run only once & done. Move on to the next title for production, & never go back to it.

So if you are following there is likely 1 - 5 new companies getting into the pinball field for 2022. Not hard to believe with past history & the increased demand going on all over the world. Also you would think that all the big players will announce more production & titles soon moving forward. Dutch Pinball should increase their production even more & plan on another title next year. Homepin is a wild card for next year.

#2188 3 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

So just more speculation...got it.

It is, but at this point, closing down Facebook & LinkedIn profiles as well as their service number, there should be at least an "we're still alive and just restructuring" update.

11
#2189 3 months ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Homepin is a wild card for next year.

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#2190 3 months ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

So if you are following there is likely 1 - 5 new companies getting into the pinball field for 2022.

OK, but how many of them will actually *produce* pins?

I can bet JPop will be involved in at least one of them.
As a cat, he's got 9 lives and only burned 3 so far (Zidware, AP, Deeproot).
And there is ample supply of nostalgics ready to fund the next fantasy of The Great Man.
Next title should be JPop in Wonderland.

11
#2191 3 months ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

Probably nothing to worry about. Normal companies ramping up to release their first product do so successfully by removing all their social media just prior to launch

Spot on. When you’re a no name, no where, no account company looking to make a splash, the first thing you do is scrub as much online presence as possible. They’ve also studiously avoided any further mention of the next title, which is super shrewd, since they’ve already closed orders on RAZA. They’re smart enough not to tease and antagonize their existing customer base of 85 (plus Robert x 22) by touting Food Truck or “80’s Title” at this time. They are wisely putting the clamps on any unnecessary DeepRoot “chatter” or publicity, which is the LAST thing any upstart company needs. Going stealth 5 years in is brilliant.

This is next level thinking folks. I’m just glad - and humbled - to be able to watch from the sidelines and maybe learn a few things.

#2192 3 months ago

I think the title of this thread should be changed. "Pre" means previous to; before. I guess if one waits for RAZA until infinity, this could be true. But the reality of the situation seems to be one of this game not being made. Ever.

I still don't understand why DR, with all their money available to produce RAZA, didn't set up an escrow that was legally obligated to holding deposits, and only releasing funds to DR when games were completed, or in the event they failed to do so the deposit returned to the payer.

Oh, that's right. That isn't how scams work.

#2193 3 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

So just more speculation...got it.

It seems like nothing short of a personal phone call from Robert stating that the games will not be made will convince you... or would you still doubt that and still just wait indefinitely? Deeproot is dead, and Robert isn't going to state this plainly any time soon, or possibly ever. Sorry man.

#2194 3 months ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Spot on. When you’re a no name, no where, no account company looking to make a splash, the first thing you do is scrub as much online presence as possible. They’ve also studiously avoided any further mention of the next title, which is super shrewd, since they’ve already closed orders on RAZA. They’re smart enough not to tease and antagonize their existing customer base of 85 (plus Robert x 22) by touting Food Truck or “80’s Title” at this time. They are wisely putting the clamps on any unnecessary DeepRoot “chatter” or publicity, which is the LAST thing any upstart company needs. Going stealth 5 years in is brilliant.
This is next level thinking folks. I’m just glad - and humbled - to be able to watch from the sidelines and maybe learn a few things.

This is just Deeproot innovating marketing the same way they did manufacturing....

#2195 3 months ago
Quoted from parsonsaj:

This is just Deeproot innovating marketing

Octo-marketing

#2196 3 months ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

What I am saying is if you think Raza is totally dead you could be wrong in the long term. Only if Deep Root goes under, or if someone buys out the remains & shelves everything that was done over the years. We find out that Raza still needs more money to get it fully working (no pinbar), & fully coded.
A new upstart is likely to start with 1 or more other pinball projects of their own to get their name going. Raza if available & money backing could be done when ready. Either a small amount 100, or 1000+ run. Most new companies will follow the model of a title in production run only once & done. Move on to the next title for production, & never go back to it.
So if you are following there is likely 1 - 5 new companies getting into the pinball field for 2022. Not hard to believe with past history & the increased demand going on all over the world. Also you would think that all the big players will announce more production & titles soon moving forward. Dutch Pinball should increase their production even more & plan on another title next year. Homepin is a wild card for next year.

Dude stop. WTF would anybody buy dr, just to scrap everything. You don't make much sense man.

dr is not hiring you.

#2197 3 months ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

It seems like nothing short of a personal phone call from Robert stating that the games will not be made will convince you... or would you still doubt that and still just wait indefinitely? Deeproot is dead, and Robert isn't going to state this plainly any time soon, or possibly ever. Sorry man.

This thread is an interesting study case in denial.

#2198 3 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Dude stop. WTF would anybody buy dr, just to scrap everything. You don't make much sense man.

If you can buy the assets without any liabilities whatsoever, then why not? Most likely the RAZA game is closer to being ready to ship, than everything a new startup has already in their pocket.

But do not get me wrong, I also see zero chance that someone would pick up anything from DR, if they have to make the current debtors or preorder people "whole"

#2199 3 months ago
Quoted from Biv:

If you can buy the assets without any liabilities whatsoever, then why not? Most likely the RAZA game is closer to being ready to ship, than everything a new startup has already in their pocket.
But do not get me wrong, I also see zero chance that someone would pick up anything from DR, if they have to make the current debtors or preorder people "whole"

Agreed. No startup would pick up these assets even at $0. Why ? They are toxic assets. You have a heap of bad vibes that will follow and dog the company even if they literally give the machines away and try to make whole. Too much money, too much time, not nearly enough return. If only DR had started with a clean slate they might have gotten somewhere

#2200 3 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Dude stop. WTF would anybody buy dr, just to scrap everything. You don't make much sense man.
dr is not hiring you.

GWJ is turning conventional wisdom - and ten years of experience - on its head. But maybe the third (RAZA rescue) time is the charm.

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