(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

3 years ago


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  • 3,299 posts
  • 253 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Nysbadmk8
  • Topic is favorited by 73 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
    52%
  • Xtra 25 votes
    48%

(52 votes)

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#1501 2 years ago

Did anyone ask for a refund?
Did anyone receive a reply email or funds back?

#1502 2 years ago

Of course not. These are going to ship soon.

#1503 2 years ago
Quoted from Deez:

Of course not. These are going to ship soon.

Cool. Any idea of when?

#1504 2 years ago
Quoted from frankmac:

Did anyone ask for a refund?
Did anyone receive a reply email or funds back?

I inquired just to find out what the option was for folks like me with Zidware credits.
If I wanted out, no problem.

I'm going to post some nice pics of the PinPod opening.

#1505 2 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

I inquired just to find out what the option was for folks like me with Zidware credits.
If I wanted out, no problem.
I'm going to post some nice pics of the PinPod opening.

Do you have info on a shipping timeline..

22
#1506 2 years ago

I took the refund, came through just fine. Didn't make sense with 10k+ in for an Xtra on a machine I expected in February and no other recource.

Ordered a TMNT on 6/3 received it from Hemispheres less than a week later with mods installed and ready to play. Call me spoiled, but that's how RAZA should have been done too.

I just can't make sense of the thought process in December 2020 that laid out timelines with critical paths like UL/CE certifications and sourced parts being giant unknowns.

I like the idea of Deeproot and what they offer, and I'm not burned on the overall experience. It's cool they offered straight refunds, regardless of reason, but I'll never put money down again without finished machines rolling off a line.

#1507 2 years ago
Quoted from frankmac:

Do you have info on a shipping timeline..

None.

#1508 2 years ago

I nearly went in on a RAZA, got as far as the cart before changing my mind. So serious question to those that did go in, what do you think of this lengthy delay, and especially what do you all think of Robert?

To me, Robert seems to be either a liar or grossly incompetent:

1) Robert said that this wasn't a pre-order, and yet after 7 months games still haven't shipped. So I'd say by any definition, this IS a pre-order.

2) Robert said that Deeproot's money was HIS money, and yet he's taken over a million dollars in PPP loans. So clearly that statement is also false.

While I do appreciate that deeproot gave refunds, I'm very concerned that Robert is the one making the decisions, given just a small sample of his track record. So I'd love to know if you guys share these concerns or what?

#1509 2 years ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

I nearly went in on a RAZA, got as far as the cart before changing my mind. So serious question to those that did go in, what do you think of this lengthy delay, and especially what do you all think of Robert?
To me, Robert seems to be either a liar or grossly incompetent:
1) Robert said that this wasn't a pre-order, and yet after 7 months games still haven't shipped. So I'd say by any definition, this IS a pre-order.
2) Robert said that Deeproot's money was HIS money, and yet he's taken over a million dollars in PPP loans. So clearly that statement is also false.
While I do appreciate that deeproot gave refunds, I'm very concerned that Robert is the one making the decisions, given just a small sample of his track record. So I'd love to know if you guys share these concerns or what?

No concerns at all and have personally waited more then 5 months for much lessor titles. I for one am well aware of all he has said in the past as it’s been replayed by many hundreds of times and personally could care less. I bought a pinball machine not a relationship/partnership with RM. I’m not in love with Gary Stern yet I buy every game. Still have little concern on this project no matter how much people love to doubt our decision. Luckily my decision is all that matters.

#1510 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

No concerns at all and have personally waited more then 5 months for much lessor titles. I for one am well aware of all he has said in the past as it’s been replayed by many hundreds of times and personally could care less. I bought a pinball machine not a relationship/partnership with RM. I’m not in love with Gary Stern yet I buy every game. Still have little concern on this project no matter how much people love to doubt our decision. Luckily my decision is all that matters.

Well said Yelo.

And it’s gonna be a damn good pin too. The ones that are left like us are excited to get it.

As for Robert, it is what it is and he is who he is and it doesn’t really matter.

I’m not sure Gary and Jack are pillars of truth and ethics either. In fact, we know better.

#1511 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

No concerns at all and have personally waited more then 5 months for much lessor titles. I for one am well aware of all he has said in the past as it’s been replayed by many hundreds of times and personally could care less. I bought a pinball machine not a relationship/partnership with RM. I’m not in love with Gary Stern yet I buy every game. Still have little concern on this project no matter how much people love to doubt our decision. Luckily my decision is all that matters.

But I‘m sure Gary loves YOU for that!

#1512 2 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

But I‘m sure Gary loves YOU for that!

Possible but likely not. He (his team) makes a product I buy a product I like. No love just a mutual interest.

#1513 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Possible but likely not. He (his team) makes a product I buy a product I like. No love just a mutual interest.

He loves the fruit of your labour then, as do you.

#1514 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Possible but likely not. He (his team) makes a product I buy a product I like. No love just a mutual interest.

Glad to see your posting are you checking your emails? I have an issue with one of your mods not working thanks

-3
#1515 2 years ago

Just one comment on PPP loans - OMG - everyone needs to ignore that stuff basically any business could get the money and some will end up becoming free money and some will be low interest loans.

Some business needs were legit needs and many were questionable but the requirement for repayment was the retention of employees.

It’s is such a stupid comment, millions of businesses applied for PPP and many still failed. I am sure we can all look at ourselves and say people who got Covid relief funds personally from the government should return that money too.

It’s has no relation to DR, the airlines took billions and now are raking in a rebound in traffic but the funds helped them pay staff when no one travelled. No one can say what would have happened to the larger economy if PPP was not available. Many businesses could likely have done without and still been ok and others could not.

Avoiding politics as much as I can, the govt poured money everywhere don’t criticize DR for applying like everyone else did.

Millions of American families got COVID money too, it was not need qualified it was just sent out. Does the govt now own those families too like people claim the taxpayers own parts of DR?

It just does not relate, PPP funds, we’re just one of the extraordinary measures the govt took during Covid, Why shouldn’t businesses apply for it? Easy to look back and say they did not need it or they never produced anything from the outside. Or does everyone prefer the govt to just have even the few DR employees get their unemployment straight from them instead of PPP funds? The idea was to use PPP to keep businesses and employees…

I think people would be shocked at all the businesses that applied and received PPP.

#1516 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

As for Robert, it is what it is and he is who he is and it doesn’t really matter.
I’m not sure Gary and Jack are pillars of truth and ethics either. In fact, we know better.

It's not about liking or not liking the man, its about trusting his decision-making and his planning abilities. He's the owner/founder and he seems to be the one calling all the shots for deeproot. The company will live and die by calls that he makes. So it matters quite a bit if he's naive, or a liar, or incompetent.

Quoted from wamonkey:

Just one comment on PPP loans - OMG - everyone needs to ignore that stuff basically any business could get the money and some will end up becoming free money and some will be low interest loans.
Some business needs were legit needs and many were questionable but the requirement for repayment was the retention of employees.
It’s is such a stupid comment, millions of businesses applied for PPP and many still failed. I am sure we can all look at ourselves and say people who got Covid relief funds personally from the government should return that money too.
It’s has no relation to DR, the airlines took billions and now are raking in a rebound in traffic but the funds helped them pay staff when no one travelled. No one can say what would have happened to the larger economy if PPP was not available. Many businesses could likely have done without and still been ok and others could not.
Avoiding politics as much as I can, the govt poured money everywhere don’t criticize DR for applying like everyone else did.
Millions of American families got COVID money too, it was not need qualified it was just sent out. Does the govt now own those families too like people claim the taxpayers own parts of DR?
It just does not relate, PPP funds, we’re just one of the extraordinary measures the govt took during Covid, Why shouldn’t businesses apply for it? Easy to look back and say they did not need it or they never produced anything from the outside. Or does everyone prefer the govt to just have even the few DR employees get their unemployment straight from them instead of PPP funds? The idea was to use PPP to keep businesses and employees…
I think people would be shocked at all the businesses that applied and received PPP.

I never criticized dr for taking PPP loans, I get that it was a business decision. Same as taking all the tax breaks you can. The point was that taking the PPP loan went against Robert's previous statements on the company's finances.

--‐----------
So far, all I'm getting is that the wait doesn't bother you guys at all. That Robert's abilities and honesty don't matter at all either. All that matters is that someday you get RAZA, which you're confident that you will, for some reason. And that apparently longterm parts support doesn't concern you at all? Deeproot Pinball has to exist in order for you to get parts and technical support. Unless of course RAZA will magically be the only pinball machine in history to never have any bespoke parts break or wear out. Just ask Alien 1.0 owners what happens when the company that made your super limited game goes under and things start breaking.

#1517 2 years ago

There will be less of these than BBB.
Believers will be rewarded.

#1518 2 years ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

It's not about liking or not liking the man, its about trusting his decision-making and his planning abilities. He's the owner/founder and he seems to be the one calling all the shots for deeproot. The company will live and die by calls that he makes. So it matters quite a bit if he's naive, or a liar, or incompetent.

I never criticized dr for taking PPP loans, I get that it was a business decision. Same as taking all the tax breaks you can. The point was that taking the PPP loan went against Robert's previous statements on the company's finances.
--‐----------
So far, all I'm getting is that the wait doesn't bother you guys at all. That Robert's abilities and honesty don't matter at all either. All that matters is that someday you get RAZA, which you're confident that you will, for some reason. And that apparently longterm parts support doesn't concern you at all? Deeproot Pinball has to exist in order for you to get parts and technical support. Unless of course RAZA will magically be the only pinball machine in history to never have any bespoke parts break or wear out. Just ask Alien 1.0 owners what happens when the company that made your super limited game goes under and things start breaking.

Sure we can be concerned and uncertain, but I have concerns about Tesla or Amazon too one is successful and DR is not.

I have stated this before I like the theme of RAZA, but I have a small deposit down on a game that is all.

Hell, if I really thought I had to only buy things that met my ideal business standards I would be living in a cave. You could not have a cell phone or any modern convenience because some part of everything is made in China and I doubt made 100% responsibly. Seriously, it could be the ink on the packaging or the box or paper or the computer chips.

I guess morality has its limitations versus daily life and the conveniences we are all accustomed to.

Does that make RM any less of egomaniac for what he said - No. But, do people think Steve Jobs or Bill Gates have nice guy reputations. Does that make RM a good manager or give him an excuse for not delivering a machine - also No.

It’s just a deposit, I am not marrying the guy or following him and Jim Jones down to Central America.

The July update will announce more delays I am sure. So what…

#1519 2 years ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Serious question to those that did go in: what do you think of this lengthy delay, and what do you all think of Robert?

People need to stop questioning or criticizing those who pre-ordered RAZA. They are taking a chance on getting a cool looking and very rare pinball machine, period. No one is saying Robert has shown great leadership, communication skills or decision making.

Quoted from pinballrockstar:

There will be less of these than BBB. Believers will be rewarded.

I agree there will be fewer RAZAs than BBBs. And it will certainly be a nice collectible. But RAZA is no Big Bang Bar.

#1520 2 years ago
Quoted from littlecammi:

People need to stop questioning or criticizing those who pre-ordered RAZA. They are taking a chance on getting a cool looking and very rare pinball machine, period. No one is saying Robert has shown great leadership, communication skills or decision making.

I agree there will be fewer RAZAs than BBBs. And it will certainly be a nice collectible. But RAZA is no Big Bang Bar.

Yeah - it might not be BBB, always wanted one of those…

#1521 2 years ago

I bought into the BBB re-pop with Gene Cunningham #111 back in 2004/05.

I'm in on RAZA AE. It's been a long ride, but I've got to let this one "ride out it out".

Honestly, this one is a scarier ride... but I'm hanging in there.

#1522 2 years ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

It's not about liking or not liking the man, its about trusting his decision-making and his planning abilities. He's the owner/founder and he seems to be the one calling all the shots for deeproot. The company will live and die by calls that he makes. So it matters quite a bit if he's naive, or a liar, or incompetent.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut. The incompetence is irrelevant at this point. He has screwed up on a massive scale thus far and yet Covid PPP saved his ass for now. There is plenty of talent to make DR pins happen in this crazy market right now.

It's just NOT about him whether he thinks it is or not. He does nothing really and has MUCH bigger fish to fry and be accountable for.

#1523 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

There will be less of these than BBB.
Believers will be rewarded.

Cosmic Carnival - 25 produced in 2019.

#1524 2 years ago

RAZA is only the beginning only one part of the triptych RAZA MG AIW. Without all 3 in one room RAZA is an incomplete pin. Like in the old alchemy books magic only happens when all components align.

#1525 2 years ago

I pre ordered Raza in 2012. $5k plus likely gone.

John P has never successfully made a pinball game. Never, unless you count zizzle or Vacation America.

I sure hope Norris or Oursler helped him fix Raza like at WMS when others saved his games.

#1526 2 years ago
Quoted from hank527:

Vacation America.

That was John T.

#1527 2 years ago
Quoted from Makakka:

RAZA is only the beginning only one part of the triptych RAZA MG AIW. Without all 3 in one room RAZA is an incomplete pin. Like in the old alchemy books magic only happens when all components align.

Uh.......yeah whatever you say. Lol.

I’ll feel plenty complete with Raza in my basement.

#1528 2 years ago
Quoted from kklank:

Uh.......yeah whatever you say. Lol.
I’ll feel plenty complete with Raza in my basement.

“DeepRoot, you complete me!” Said no one ever!

#1529 2 years ago
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#1530 2 years ago
Quoted from wamonkey:

Just one comment on PPP loans - OMG - everyone needs to ignore that stuff basically any business could get the money and some will end up becoming free money and some will be low interest loans.
Some business needs were legit needs and many were questionable but the requirement for repayment was the retention of employees.
It’s is such a stupid comment, millions of businesses applied for PPP and many still failed. I am sure we can all look at ourselves and say people who got Covid relief funds personally from the government should return that money too.
It’s has no relation to DR, the airlines took billions and now are raking in a rebound in traffic but the funds helped them pay staff when no one travelled. No one can say what would have happened to the larger economy if PPP was not available. Many businesses could likely have done without and still been ok and others could not.
Avoiding politics as much as I can, the govt poured money everywhere don’t criticize DR for applying like everyone else did.
Millions of American families got COVID money too, it was not need qualified it was just sent out. Does the govt now own those families too like people claim the taxpayers own parts of DR?
It just does not relate, PPP funds, we’re just one of the extraordinary measures the govt took during Covid, Why shouldn’t businesses apply for it? Easy to look back and say they did not need it or they never produced anything from the outside. Or does everyone prefer the govt to just have even the few DR employees get their unemployment straight from them instead of PPP funds? The idea was to use PPP to keep businesses and employees…
I think people would be shocked at all the businesses that applied and received PPP.

The reason deeproot stands out verse millions of other PPP loans is deeproot had no business/sales to be interrupted. They didnt need a loan to offset lost business… or retain employees they would otherwise need to layoff. They obviously took the money because it was easy cheap money and they could…

They were responsible and had planned to cover their expenses all during their time well through their first sales. And their delay in shipping is not due to covid….

Thats why them taking PPP is more notable then any random business that basically had their industry turned off…

#1531 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The reason deeproot stands out verse millions of other PPP loans is deeproot had no business/sales to be interrupted. They didnt need a loan to offset lost business… or retain employees they would otherwise need to layoff. They obviously took the money because it was easy cheap money and they could…
They were responsible and had planned to cover their expenses all during their time well through their first sales. And their delay in shipping is not due to covid….
Thats why them taking PPP is more notable then any random business that basically had their industry turned off…

I don’t disagree, I am just saying PPP may end up as a loan. Many so so businesses took the money, they had no business to speak of prior to COVID and post Covid they have no business. The money will likely make them hold in for a while longer, or it could help them actually produce a few games.

DR just keeps hanging on if it was not PPP they would have kept hanging on by some other way.

That is what this forum has been saying for a million posts. No one can believe they keep hanging on without producing anything.

#1532 2 years ago
Quoted from kklank:

I’ll feel plenty complete with Raza in my basement

For sure step by step. As for the update odds:

The last Cary Hardy deeproot video stated the pinbar was the main reason for the delay. According to the last official updates this is not a a problem anymore.
Hardy said another rerason was not having a senior engineer. We saw a working prototype + the January update stated the quad lines were already rolling.

The official May update said 3 problems have to be solved. Part supply, part cost increase and labor shortage. Part cost increase should be covered at least by the covid loans. Labor shortage is done since the covid support in Texas ended no free money anymore.

Only problem in sight therefore is part supply. Maybe this (also) is out of the way after 7 months of parts gathering.

Had a nightmare tonight my mobile was trickstolen on the street.

Dream analysis is saying its the fear of a massive trust breach and disappointment. Its the fear we get another disfunctional update another bummer.

-1
#1533 2 years ago
Quoted from Makakka:

The official May update said 3 problems have to be solved. Part supply, part cost increase and labor shortage.

What about UL certification? We don't know whether or not that is still an issue too.

#1534 2 years ago
Quoted from Makakka:

Had a nightmare tonight my mobile was trickstolen on the street.
Dream analysis is saying its the fear of a massive trust breach and disappointment. Its the fear we get another disfunctional update another bummer.

You are into some weird voodoo shit lol

#1535 2 years ago

Next update is supposed to be out soonish, right?

At least they’re still kicking: There‘s some new rules stuff at Fun with Bonus.

#1536 2 years ago

If there was good news (machines going out shortly) that would have been said. I predict the delayed update is because there's only so many ways they can explain more delays. That Spooky had an incredible day makes it even more embarrassing for the update.

#1537 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

If there was good news (machines going out shortly) that would have been said. I predict the delayed update is because there's only so many ways they can explain more delays. That Spooky had an incredible day makes it even more embarrassing for the update.

I don't think I agree with your first point. Even if they were ready to ship, that announcement would get upstaged by Spooky's double release if communicated this week. Based on that, I never expected an announcement this week no matter what. So, I'm not necessarily reading bad news as the cause for the delay.

That said, you're you're probably right regarding the content of the update. I'll be pleasantly SHOCKED if the announcement says delivery is remotely imminent.

I go into each subsequent update with a little more dread (am I gonna finally lose my money - I'm Zidware, so I've kinda already figured it was gone) mixed with a morbid curiosity over how Robert will "explain" the latest delay.

12
#1538 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

If there was good news (machines going out shortly) that would have been said. I predict the delayed update is because there's only so many ways they can explain more delays. That Spooky had an incredible day makes it even more embarrassing for the update.

I feel like it doesn’t really matter how Robert explains delays. He could keep saying parts delays till the new year, or continued pinbar source issues, whatever. Goodwill customers are on the full ride no matter what. And most others have stated fairly similarly. So the updates don’t mean a whole lot until the one comes that says shipping is imminent or the one comes that says the towel is being thrown in.

#1539 2 years ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

I feel like it doesn’t really matter how Robert explains delays. He could keep saying parts delays till the new year, or continued pinbar source issues, whatever. Goodwill customers are on the full ride no matter what. And most others have stated fairly similarly. So the updates don’t mean a whole lot until the one comes that says shipping is imminent or the one comes that says the towel is being thrown in.

You nailed it!

#1540 2 years ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

I feel like it doesn’t really matter how Robert explains delays. He could keep saying parts delays till the new year, or continued pinbar source issues, whatever. Goodwill customers are on the full ride no matter what. And most others have stated fairly similarly. So the updates don’t mean a whole lot until the one comes that says shipping is imminent or the one comes that says the towel is being thrown in.

I agree wholeheartedly.

#1541 2 years ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

Based on that, I never expected an announcement this week no matter what.

Actually a delay update would have been perfectly timed yesterday in the spooky craze. If no update this week it tends to be good news to put some gravity behind when the spooky dust settled.+ the funwithbonus RAZA update is a good sign.

So you are saying you never expected an update with bad news.

#1542 2 years ago

I start to believe RM wishes to have a new set of RAZA buyers that are not worn out by broken promises/failed timelines so he welcomes any refund application. He stated he has a large preorder waiting list.

18
#1543 2 years ago
Quoted from Makakka:

He stated he has a large preorder waiting list.

RM says a lot of things.

#1544 2 years ago
Quoted from Makakka:

I start to believe RM wishes to have a new set of RAZA buyers that are not worn out by broken promises/failed timelines so he welcomes any refund application. He stated he has a large preorder waiting list.

A large pre-order waiting list of people that weren’t interested at half the price for the whole month of ordering opportunity, but are in line now to pay double? Sounds like RM all right.

#1545 2 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

A large pre-order waiting list of people that weren’t interested at half the price for the whole month of ordering opportunity, but are in line now to pay double? Sounds like RM all right.

Half price? Wow so they are worth 20k now awesome must have missed that news.

#1546 2 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

A large pre-order waiting list of people that weren’t interested at half the price for the whole month of ordering opportunity, but are in line now to pay double? Sounds like RM all right.

Makakka lives his life by tides and moons and whatnot. Whats in that German beer!

#1547 2 years ago

After watching and ordering a Spooky Ultraman and how Spooky does BIZ waiting for any info as a customer of Deeproot I feel like I am the real asshole here.

Tired.

-1
#1548 2 years ago
Quoted from frankmac:

After watching and ordering a Spooky Ultraman and how Spooky does BIZ waiting for any info as a costumer of Deeproot I feel like I am the real asshole here.
Tired.

Don’t be so hard on yourself and hang in there. RM will come through.

#1549 2 years ago
Quoted from frankmac:

After watching and ordering a Spooky Ultraman and how Spooky does BIZ waiting for any info as a costumer of Deeproot I feel like I am the real asshole here.
Tired.

Couldn’t agree more. I ordered a Halloween, only my second nib and first from Spooky, and it was refreshing knowing they will deliver. Halloween has always been my grail theme so it’s definitely made my excitement for RAZA diminish almost to the point I don’t care anymore. It’s part of why I kicked Ned to the curb as my avatar. Now that being said, I’m still in the “game” and maybe we will get pleasantly surprised at some point in the near future??? I have just put RAZA on the back burner mentally for the time being. But yes, I too feel like an asshole at times, you are not alone.

#1550 2 years ago
Quoted from frankmac:

After watching and ordering a Spooky Ultraman and how Spooky does BIZ waiting for any info as a costumer of Deeproot I feel like I am the real asshole here.
Tired.

I think you're a decent man and someone I've grown to like and respect around Pinside.
But I take your point. Been there, done that myself.

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