(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

11 months ago


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  • 3,298 posts
  • 253 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 days ago by jeffspinballpalace
  • Topic is favorited by 89 Pinsiders

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“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
    52%
  • Xtra 25 votes
    48%

(52 votes)

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#1351 6 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

I'm not here to start shit but facilitate a true discussion on the possibility that this is never going to happen and that people who need to get their money out do. I support anyone going for the ride and hopefully suceed. I hope I kick myself later.

All of those that ordered received the same option to make up our own mind. Thanks.

#1352 6 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

I'm not here to start shit but facilitate a true discussion on the possibility that this is never going to happen and that people who need to get their money out do. I support anyone going for the ride and hopefully suceed. I hope I kick myself later.

That’s much appreciated. And I do understand.......with that said............

Now who wants to roll the dice and keep going??!!!!!!!!!
Hell yeah baby I’m going all the way to RAZA town!

#1353 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

All of those that ordered received the same option to make up our own mind. Thanks.

Dude no reason to be smug. Just stating some facts. Trying to give a different perspective. Sorry you don't approve

-3
#1354 6 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

Dude no reason to be smug. Just stating some facts. Trying to give a different perspective. Sorry you don't approve

I’m not being smug but Maybe consider coming back when your not drinking!

#1355 6 months ago

My take is completely different.
I feel RM is sick and tired of all the naysayers. So he’s saying “you want out? No problemo. Here’s your refund. I’ve got people lined up to take your spot.
Next!”
I don’t see it as a sign of folding at all but more of a sign of being sick and tire of the delay due to shortages and maybe some mistakes due to lack of experience. Regardless, he’s pissed and can’t wait to prove some people wrong.
Either way, it’s fun to be a part of the journey.

#1356 6 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

My take is completely different.
I feel RM is sick and tired of all the naysayers. So he’s saying “you want out? No problemo. Here’s your refund. I’ve got people lined up to take your spot.
Next!”
I don’t see it as a sign of folding at all but more of a sign of being sick and tire of the delay due to shortages and maybe some mistakes due to lack of experience. Regardless, he’s pissed and can’t wait to prove some people wrong.
Either way, it’s fun to be a part of the journey.

What boomer said!

12
#1357 6 months ago

it is odd that DR won’t even show pics of playfields , back glasses or bare cabs - anything- to instill some confidence . Whether assembly has begun or not if the game was originally scheduled to begin shipping in February surely the playfields and glasses / trans lights are printed . I’d love to see this built but Dr is definitely begging people to get out - seemingly so they don’t have to build it .

#1358 6 months ago
Quoted from NevadaNutJob:

it is odd that DR won’t even show pics of playfields , back glasses or bare cabs - anything- to instill some confidence . Whether assembly has begun or not if the game was originally scheduled to begin shipping in February surely the playfields and glasses / trans lights are printed . I’d love to see this built but Dr is definitely begging people to get out - seemingly so they don’t have to build it .

That's my point. I'm still on the fence on this. Again trying to facilitate a discussion. I'm not trying to bash anyone but trying to see the true writing on a wall. There is a fact that people are not getting paid down there. First rule is to make sure your employees are paid no matter what. If they are not getting paid how can there ever be a game. Just saying I've "Only Begun To Drink"

#1359 6 months ago

I’m a crazy Boomer!

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#1360 6 months ago
Quoted from NevadaNutJob:

it is odd that DR won’t even show pics of playfields , back glasses or bare cabs - anything- to instill some confidence . Whether assembly has begun or not if the game was originally scheduled to begin shipping in February surely the playfields and glasses / trans lights are printed . I’d love to see this built but Dr is definitely begging people to get out - seemingly so they don’t have to build it .

Odd yes and would be welcome but not required. If I was an owner/investor in the company yes but in a product not so much.

#1361 6 months ago
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#1362 6 months ago

Look out! Here come the memes! Lol

#1363 6 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

There is a fact that people are not getting paid down there. First rule is to make sure your employees are paid no matter what. Just saying I've "Only Begun To Drink"

Outside of this story telling forum can you show Proof of this statement? Again not from something on this forum.

#1364 6 months ago

#1365 6 months ago

Give it a listen. There are some convincing arguments in there. Keep in mind I want this too. But I have no inclination of giving money for someone else's benefit without something in return.

#1366 6 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

Give it a listen. There are some convincing arguments in there. Keep in mind I want this too. But I have no inclination of giving money for someone else's benefit without something in return.

You submitted for refund. You can now be happy and move on to something you can feel more confident in. Best to you.

-1
#1367 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

You submitted for refund. You can now be happy and move on to something you can feel more confident in. Best to you.

I haven't submitted shit so don't make assumptions on others actions.

#1368 6 months ago

These ladies are not canceling.

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#1369 6 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

These ladies are not canceling.
[quoted image]

Who would cancel them

#1370 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

You submitted for refund. You can now be happy and move on to something you can feel more confident in. Best to you.

Again. I'm not trying to bash shit but get people to collectively look at the language in these contracts. Contracts are legally binding. If you do not understand that go get a lawyer to interpret it for you.

#1371 6 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

My take is completely different.
I feel RM is sick and tired of all the naysayers. So he’s saying “you want out? No problemo. Here’s your refund. I’ve got people lined up to take your spot.
Next!”
I don’t see it as a sign of folding at all but more of a sign of being sick and tire of the delay due to shortages and maybe some mistakes due to lack of experience. Regardless, he’s pissed and can’t wait to prove some people wrong.
Either way, it’s fun to be a part of the journey.

There is nothing more than I would appreciate than that. I think we all appreciate that rebel attitude. But give me a teaser. It's been in UL testing. Not needed. Where was the mention of that. A pic. Something? Get me off the fence.

#1372 6 months ago
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#1373 6 months ago

So many Preordererers...

Whoops! I‘m gone...

#1374 6 months ago
Quoted from clempo:

Seems pretty simple, a pre-order is an order for something that is not available yet. Am I missing something?

Oh, it’s an ORDER for something that doesn’t exist? Gotcha.

Quoted from Mbecker:

True, common term. I think family arcade was just having a bit of fun and stating the term itself is a bit non sensical - the way it’s used, not just here.

Does that mean your a pre-order.. er, an order that will be asking for a refund?

Exactly. Think it’s a stupid concept. It’s either an order or not an order. The “pre” is utterly gratuitous. But there’s a lot of stupid shit in this world, so I guess I just gotta accept it.

Like the “word” “verticality” in basketball. Or my old favorite “physicality”. These “words” didn’t exist until some sports writer or announcer invented them. They still shouldn’t exist, lol.

But ok. A pre-order for something unavailable. Checks out!

#1375 6 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

It's not that just be careful. I don't want to see anyone screwed over. This isn't jpop. It's someone far more nefarious. Again read the statement. Refunds are first come first serve. That is a company folding. Its just business I get it.

I appreciate your concern, but will continue to make my own decisions and what’s best for me.

I am 100% in and riding this journey out. If RAZA never ships and I lose my $500...I can at least say I went after something I really wanted and it just didn’t work out. I’m at peace with that and will have no one to blame but myself for money lost as I took that risk, me, no one forced me to do anything. I will be more bummed a fantastic looking pin never came to fruition.

Take care and good luck to you!

#1376 6 months ago

The ironic part of this blathering Canary video is he starts out saying you are emotionally involved in this; he is not and can see this logically. Then he ends saying he is emotionally involved in this at end of the video.

Not saying he don’t have some points.

But that is 20 mins of nothing new for anyone that preordered if you read Pinside.

#1377 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

What boomer said!

“Big Boomer Energy” is Ourslers next game.

#1378 6 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

I appreciate your concern, but will continue to make my own decisions and what’s best for me.
I am 100% in and riding this journey out. If RAZA never ships and I lose my $500...I can at least say I went after something I really wanted and it just didn’t work out. I’m at peace with that and will have no one to blame but myself for money lost as I took that risk, me, no one forced me to do anything. I will be more bummed a fantastic looking pin never came to fruition.
Take care and good luck to you!

That’s the thing I don’t understand.
People go gambling and blow $500.
People go to a professional sports game and blow $500. (Or whatever your vice is.)

If you want to take a gamble on $500 no big deal. This may not be for me; but for preorders - I have to respect where you want to gamble. Lots of effort going into trying to convince you otherwise.

Oh btw people saying they are trying to save you are not. They are just trying to be RIGHT and support their view point.

#1379 6 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

That’s the thing I don’t understand.
People go gambling and blow $500.
People go to a professional sports game and blow $500. (Or whatever your vice is.)
If you want to take a gamble on $500 no big deal. This may not be for me; but for preorders - I have to respect where you want to gamble. Lots of effort going into trying to convince you otherwise.
Oh btw people saying they are trying to save you are not. They are just trying to be RIGHT and support their view point.

Amen.

#1380 6 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

What if the game comes out but theres no pinbar? Does that change anything for you guys?

Shhhh. Don’t give any ideas. lol

#1381 6 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

I haven't submitted shit so don't make assumptions on others actions.

Quoted from Stemmy:

Again I'm a soon to be x-preorder.

Hard not to when you post in other thread you are soon to be x-preorder.

#1382 6 months ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Oh, it’s an ORDER for something that doesn’t exist? Gotcha.

Exactly. Think it’s a stupid concept. It’s either an order or not an order. The “pre” is utterly gratuitous.
But ok. A pre-order for something unavailable. Checks out!

Having "pre-ordered" RAZA #4 from Zidware, and having sued Zidware and Jpop in Illinois for a refund (and having received restitution), I thereafter concluded that the "pre" in "pre-order" stands for "pretend." ;>

On a serious note, I suspect that like Magic Girl, a smattering of deeproot RAZAs will be made. However, from a purely objective standpoint, the odds on deeproot's survival quotient are dubious at best. Nevertheless, I will continue to root for you pre-order Pinsiders.

#1383 6 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

People go gambling and blow $500.
People go to a professional sports game and blow $500.

The act of standing at the gambling table placing bets and interacting with the dealer and other players is the value returned for that $500

Watching a sports event live amongst the crowd is the value returned for that $500

There is zero value returned for a pre-order that goes bust. All you get is disappointment. The only reason to pre-order is to try to get something difficult to obtain, and if you don't get that item, both your time and money are wasted.

#1384 6 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

The act of standing at the gambling table placing bets and interacting with the dealer and other players is the value returned for that $500
Watching a sports event live amongst the crowd is the value returned for that $500
There is zero value returned for a pre-order that goes bust. All you get is disappointment. The only reason to pre-order is to try to get something difficult to obtain, and if you don't get that item, both your time and money are wasted.

I would have to say this and the hater thread are very entertaining and I have not even spent a dollar.

Just think of the entertainment value per post in both threads. We have got months and years worth. Much cheaper than gambling!

#1385 6 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

The act of standing at the gambling table placing bets and interacting with the dealer and other players is the value returned for that $500

Watching a sports event live amongst the crowd is the value returned for that $500

There is zero value returned for a pre-order that goes bust. All you get is disappointment. The only reason to pre-order is to try to get something difficult to obtain, and if you don't get that item, both your time and money are wasted

This thread alone is worth $500.00
More power to those who took a chance ... when they get their games and they will.... they will have a hell of a story with their pins ..

#1386 6 months ago

Lastly , they work for their money...
Let them do as they please with it ...
I'm not a gambling fan, sports or concert goer ...
Doesn't give me the right to tell you that your wasting your money...

#1387 6 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

The only reason to pre-order is to try to get something difficult to obtain

Isn't that the definition of a bet? To obtain something IE a win??

Quoted from metallik:

both your time and money are wasted.

Kind of funny you have to admit. At least we have a bet down. Some have invested Hundreds of posts, hours, research, with No investment (skin in the game). Thats the definition of wasted time in my book lol. I tend to see a game I don't like shrug my shoulders and walk away. Not spend countless hours trying to convince others why they are wrong. I just see wasted time differently though I guess.

#1388 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Isn't that the definition of a bet? To obtain something IE a win??

The equivalent of sitting at home, alone in your underwear playing online poker for real money. If that entertains you, rock on. For most people, gambling is about the camaraderie.

Quoted from Yelobird:

Some have invested Hundreds of posts, hours, research, with No investment (skin in the game). Thats the definition of wasted time in my book lol.

Yeah that's a big waste of time as well. I don't care what y'all do with your money, and these replies are all the time I have invested here. I just think it's nutty to compare preordering a pinball machine to a night on the town or at the stadium. Y'all are doing this for status, to own a rare game... not because the process is fun. Stop fooling yourselves.

#1389 6 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

Y'all are doing this for status, to own a rare game... not because the process is fun. Stop fooling yourselves.

Or.... We enjoy pinball and this game looks fun? I'm sure your right though...

Quoted from metallik:

The equivalent of sitting at home, alone in your underwear playing online poker for real money. If that entertains you, rock on. For most people, gambling is about the camaraderie.

Yep, I will make it a point to become BFF's with my bookie next time I place a bet as I don't want to win I just want a buddy to hang out with.

#1390 6 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

The equivalent of sitting at home, alone in your underwear playing online poker for real money. If that entertains you, rock on. For most people, gambling is about the camaraderie.

Yeah that's a big waste of time as well. I don't care what y'all do with your money, and these replies are all the time I have invested here. I just think it's nutty to compare preordering a pinball machine to a night on the town or at the stadium. Y'all are doing this for status, to own a rare game... not because the process is fun. Stop fooling yourselves.

Status? Fooling myself? Get the heck out of here.
Take the negativity and go somewhere else.
We just want to play a kick ass game. What’s wrong with having some fun and being optimistic about a new game?
Oh I’m sorry, I forgot, I’m just doing this for status. Yep. I’m just dying to be be the one that everyone that looks up to in the mighty world of pinball. Lmao!!
By the way, I’m having a lot of fun. I hope you do too.

#1391 6 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

Look at it this way. You have an iron clad contact people can not back out of. Which is actually beautifully written. Now your giving people the option to back out of. How does that make sense? Get someone that understands contractual law. Do whatever. But RM has done a bunch of SEC fillings. If he does not offer refunds this opens him up to SEC scrutiny which is far worse than anything we could do because fraud would become involved.

As a lawyer myself that understands contract law and am here local, I could offer up a multitude of legal recourse options for all of us. It’s the LAST thing I worry about right now

But It won’t be needed. Refunds were an option and still are an option and ALWAYS will be an option.

Pinball is just one aspect of the Deeproot 575 fund that is not going “bankrupt”

Could they cease pinball operations? Sure. If they don’t start pumping out games you really can’t be called a pinball company can you?

RAZA will be built and the game is fun!

#1392 6 months ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

Lastly , they work for their money...
Let them do as they please with it ...
I'm not a gambling fan, sports or concert goer ...
Doesn't give me the right to tell you that your wasting your money...

I'm not telling anyone here what to do with their money. And I've been an advocate for the Zidware people since the very beginning.
But I'm processing the same information you guys are and I'm just baffled by our different conclusions, that's all.

#1393 6 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

Status? Fooling myself? Get the heck out of here.
Take the negativity and go somewhere else.
We just want to play a kick ass game. What’s wrong with having some fun and being optimistic about a new game?
Oh I’m sorry, I forgot, I’m just doing this for status. Yep. I’m just dying to be be the one that everyone that looks up to in the mighty world of pinball. Lmao!!
By the way, I’m having a lot of fun. I hope you do too.

I’m having FUN too brother. Let’s go!!

#1394 6 months ago
Quoted from ZNET:

Having "pre-ordered" RAZA #4 from Zidware, and having sued Zidware and Jpop in Illinois for a refund (and having received restitution), I thereafter concluded that the "pre" in "pre-order" stands for "pretend." ;>
On a serious note, I suspect that like Magic Girl, a smattering of deeproot RAZAs will be made. However, from a purely objective standpoint, the odds on deeproot's survival quotient are dubious at best. Nevertheless, I will continue to root for you pre-order Pinsiders.

Thx Bruce. It’s been a long journey but this ain’t no Magic Girl. Lol

You aren’t still one of the dwindling plaintiffs left are you? I hope you can pull some $$ out of him

#1395 6 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

Status? Fooling myself? Get the heck out of here.
Take the negativity and go somewhere else.
We just want to play a kick ass game.

What negativity? Just calling it as I see it.

There are plenty of kick ass games to buy and play right now. RAZA isn't even finished yet, so how can you say it's kick ass?

To say rarity has no influence in decisions to buy RAZA is to deny reality.. people have posted specifically they're holding out to own a rare game. Hey, more power to you...

#1396 6 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Thx Bruce. It’s been a long journey but this ain’t no Magic Girl. Lol
You aren’t still one of the dwindling plaintiffs left are you? I hope you can pull some $$ out of him

Welcome back from your surgery, Doug.

My case was resolved within about 2 weeks of my lawsuit filing, at the time Bill's Pintasia entered the scene. Seems like forever ago.

There are about a dozen plaintiffs who joined my suit. They each successfully obtained favorable judgments against one or more defendants.

When Jersey Jack began taking ECLEWOZ preorders about 10 years ago, I felt comfortable with that risk inasmuch as JJP was then in southern NJ, just an hour's drive from my house. I figured that if I had a contractual dispute, JJP was in my jurisdiction.

As a Texas attorney with litigation resources, I imagine that you feel similarly about deeproot. Your risk is somewhat lower than a RAZA preorder customer overseas, for example.

#1397 6 months ago

I guess I don't understand the gambling mentality here. You're gambling on the fact that a. The game actually comes out and b. Becomes a collectors item down the road. Theres so many rare games out there that don't bring big money. In fact, theres way more that are exceedingly rare but don't fetch big money vs collectors items. Everyone mentions mafia, and cosmic carnival, but think about all the weird european and South american games, most of the games from smaller us manufactirers, ect.

For example take like a Mac Attack from Mr. Game. Great analog to deeproot. Packed full of innovation, interesting cabinet, video screen integration, and super hard to find. They don't sell for much on the rare occasions they come up for sale and barely anyone wants one because parts and service are hard to come by.

I get theres a story here with deeproot, and there's the jpop factor, and more people are aware of this game vs Mr Game games but I guess I'm just saying even if it does come out, there's no guarantee it becomes a sought after collectable.

I wish you all luck. Buy the game because you like the game not because you think you'll be winning the lottery by having something desirable.

#1398 6 months ago
Quoted from ZNET:

Welcome back from your surgery, Doug.
My case was resolved within about 2 weeks of my lawsuit filing, at the time Bill's Pintasia entered the scene. Seems like forever ago.
There are about a dozen plaintiffs who joined my suit. They each successfully obtained favorable judgments against one or more defendants.
When Jersey Jack began taking ECLEWOZ preorders about 10 years ago, I felt comfortable with that risk inasmuch as JJP was then in southern NJ, just an hour's drive from my house. I figured that if I had a contractual dispute, JJP was in my jurisdiction.
As a Texas attorney with litigation resources, I imagine that you feel similarly about deeproot. Your risk is somewhat lower than a RAZA preorder customer overseas, for example.

Yep, hard to believe it was 10 years ago! Jack and Woz started this crazy pinball journey for me and many others.

Can’t say I’ve enjoyed every minute of it but pinball has really been a great hobby to get into all things considered.

That’s great that you guys got some restitution. Everybody should get made whole

I will be able to help anybody that needs it if it ever comes to that.

Robert has bigger overall concerns with that 575 fund and no way is he worried about walking away with a few pinball deposits. That will never happen.

He claims that money is sitting in some sort of escrow account and not part of the DR operating account?

I’m not even sure how involved he is now on a daily basis. Sounds like his meeting with Steve on his Bday was an “update meeting” for Robert as if he’s got other fish to fry. Who knows.

#1399 6 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

I wish you all luck.

Thanks, will let you know how it goes.

#1400 6 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

That’s the thing I don’t understand.
People go gambling and blow $500.
People go to a professional sports game and blow $500. (Or whatever your vice is.)

except $500 doesn't get you anything... except the opportunity to send a much bigger chunk of change later.

$500 is just the ante - it alone doesn't win you anything.

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