(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

11 months ago


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“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
    52%
  • Xtra 25 votes
    48%

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#1201 6 months ago
Quoted from BertoDRINK1:

Take your wisdom to the other thread, so you can get the pointless "Up Votes" you are after.
I'm in and not worried about it. I'm helping the original buyers hopefully get their games by not pulling out.

#1202 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Good for you making your own decisions! Never figure out how this ever became personal buyers vs the non-buyers debate? Dislike the company but hard to see how this needs to be personal against us or our decision. Odd though not concerning.

Thanks! And this really was my own decision, not one made for me by the deeproot cult that some think exists! Lol

#1203 6 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

To those that think moving on to a different title is a good idea...
Terrible idea! RAZA has to happen first or deeproot is done. There has to be that first title that proves themselves and shows they can do it. No matter what title is first, sales will be abysmal, it does not matter. There are not enough risk takers regardless of the title to make their first offering a big success.
RAZA HAS TO HAPPEN FIRST...
Then, and only then, can other titles follow once they have gained the pinball community’s confidence that they are for real and can deliver. Yes, they have a long road ahead of them, but not an impossible road.

Building 30 or 130 razas after all this money down the drain and delays doesn’t really prove shit. As long as Robert is running the ship, you can be assured that it’s a chaotic mess at DR. They aren’t gaining the pinball community confidence by managing to scrap together less than 150 RAZAs after spending millions and millions with no profit and hardly any games made, come on.

If they could get a second decent game shipping before end of 2022, that would be a shock and maybe turn a few heads. We’ve watched half the things they promised disappear into the ether like they never existed. Indestructible playfields, octo manufacturing, 5 days of Deeproot, multiple titles available to ship at launch, free giveaways, designers coming to your home, no pre-orders, games ready to ship imminently.. I know I’m missing more. It seems likely they may be calling to cancel all the custom builds they promised as well if they build any, because that is nearly as insane as some of the other things that disappeared from a realistic manufacturing point of view. The only saving grace there, is that with so few numbers there’s less chance to f up too orders so maybe they’ll stick with it.

The deposits aren’t that much to gamble away and if y’all get the rare games, that’s cool. I don’t think anyone can pretend that delivered games is guaranteeing too much regarding the future of DR though, at least at this juncture. It’s a shame too, cause I do like the lift system and would be interested to at least try the pinbar.

#1204 6 months ago

Lots of opinions out there on this - at least it’s exciting.

Appreciate the optimism and the critical thought on the topic, in the end it’s a personal decision.

If I was paid in full or a Zidware customer wishing to finally wrap this chapter up there is a lot more to be upset about, but just a $500 deposit is gambling. That could be a single bet in Vegas...

-1
#1205 6 months ago

Stern made 100 new in box pinball games yesterday, yeah in one day. Months and months after Deeproot took orders for 100 games TOTAL I'm just wondering does ANYONE have their game yet?

Just a suggestion to Robert... check out that video with Jack Danger Sterns behind the scenes "HOW STERN MAKES GAMES". Maybe you'll at least get the basics down I mean it can't hurt right? You could watch that video while you continue to apply for UL approval.

I guessing your game won't be made prior to Chicago Expo, so why not pre-buy Stern factory tour experience. At this point NOTHING can hurt.

#1206 6 months ago
Quoted from noitbe1:

Making no progress might be related to manufacturing issues. Anyway that’s conjecture...

That is possible but it doesn‘t really matter.

Yes he refrained from giving info like before, that they‘re on track with this and that. But it‘s better to do it this way imho than allways spreading the hope and fail again (2 weeks Andrew Heighway style).

And he is right with one thing undoubtedly, while they‘re waiting and trying to solve issues the market and prices for parts are wild. It‘s hard(er) for anyone now.

So basically now it‘s „it‘s done when it‘s done“ but at least they‘re still on it.

#1207 6 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

That is possible but it doesn‘t really matter.
Yes he refrained from giving info like before, that they‘re on track with this and that. But it‘s better to do it this way imho than allways spreading the hope and fail again (2 weeks Andrew Heighway style).
And he is right with one thing undoubtedly, while they‘re waiting and trying to solve issues the market and prices for parts are wild. It‘s hard(er) for anyone now.

I disagree with the idea than this update is better than nothing. The last two updates were, part of it, about refund and exchange ticket. I don’t think it’s a good idea to open the door for a way out knowing a lot of preorder were with small values and you don’t inspire confidence doing that.
I don’t know what would have been the best way, but I agree with the idea that be more transparent with their manufacturing and other things would have been a good way to quiet the critics and ease the long wait. IMO. What with he says : we have made a lot of progress but we can’t share it. WTF. I still hope they release something of course, but I hope they will learn with their mistakes quickly.. time is money I guess.

#1208 6 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

The price point for RAZA was insane considering the features. There is twice as much “stuff” as a Stern Pro which costs more. The RAZA Ae was $5899 if I remember correctly. They were never going to make much money on this title at that price point which leads me to my next point.

This was actually the main reason I didn't take a chance on the deposit. If there were a healthier profit margin, they would be more motivated to ship on time and deliver a quality product with good software. But with lower margins, it would seem there could be less motivation for shipping something decent since the payoff is mainly an intangible like reputation. BTW, that's not to say it can't work... for example, WOZ was inexpensive and high quality.

In many industries, companies price high for early adopters and then drop the price as they sell more, as the startup & fixed costs can be spread across more units.

#1209 6 months ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I'm just wondering does ANYONE have their game yet?

Are you though?

Quoted from drfrightner:

Just a suggestion to Robert... check out that video with Jack Danger Sterns behind the scenes "HOW STERN MAKES GAMES". Maybe you'll at least get the basics down I mean it can't hurt right? You could watch that video while you continue to apply for UL approval.
I guessing your game won't be made prior to Chicago Expo, so why not pre-buy Stern factory tour experience. At this point NOTHING can hurt.

I'm sure Robert is super interested to hear all about this, unlike the rest of us in this thread. Here is a link to the deeproot contact page for your convenience: https://deeprootpinball.com/contact

#1210 6 months ago
Quoted from noitbe1:

I disagree with the idea than this update is better than nothing.

I do too. Who said that?

I just said he's not "hiding" problems just because he doesn't tell you in detail each single one they have.
It is obvious they have problems, otherwise the game would be out in the wild.

The rest, yeah, well... they should propably share something, but they haven't up until now, so why start now?
And if their problems are bigger then they made it sound it would also fall back on them.

But time IS money indeed...

#1211 6 months ago
Quoted from BertoDRINK1:

Take your wisdom to the other thread, so you can get the pointless "Up Votes" you are after.
I'm in and not worried about it. I'm helping the original buyers hopefully get their games by not pulling out.

Bro lol, this is why theres even people who are still owed games. Just stay in on MG,RAZA,AIW bro, it'll be fine bro, don't pull out or we'll all miss out on our games bro.

Then it was sign up with DR or take a refund and Don't take the money bro, DR is going to make everything OK, don't take the refund or you'll never get your game!

Good luck

#1212 6 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

Bro lol, this is why theres even people who are still owed games. Just stay in on MG,RAZA,AIW bro, it'll be fine bro, don't pull out or we'll all miss out on our games bro.
Then it was sign up with DR or take a refund and Don't take the money bro, DR is going to make everything OK, don't take the refund or you'll never get your game!
Good luck

You lost me at "Bro"

12
#1213 6 months ago

well in all fairness, part of that logic is very sound. If you take a refund/money, that is a 100% chance you will never get a game. Very true.

It's interesting that RM has not only not showed any progress pictures in nearly 6 months now, but has explicitly not mentioned anything about what they could have been doing during this time, waiting for parts.. like "playfields are cut and printed, ready to go!" or "100 cabinets are completed with art".. "Shipping cartons are in and ready for games" or even - "there has been a lot of RAZA downtime while waiting on parts and UL cert, which has been poured into our second title which is playable and close to being revealed" .. something along those lines, anything. Sure he doesn't "have to" do this, but ya'd think logically anyone in his position WOULD do this if things were actually happening on Raza.

#1214 6 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

To those that think moving on to a different title is a good idea...
Terrible idea! RAZA has to happen first or deeproot is done. There has to be that first title that proves themselves and shows they can do it. No matter what title is first, sales will be abysmal, it does not matter. There are not enough risk takers regardless of the title to make their first offering a big success.
RAZA HAS TO HAPPEN FIRST...
Then, and only then, can other titles follow once they have gained the pinball community’s confidence that they are for real and can deliver. Yes, they have a long road ahead of them, but not an impossible road.

Well I suppose but it’s just an opinion.

#1215 6 months ago
Quoted from NoMonkey:

I'm sure Robert is super interested to hear all about this,

I was being totally serious. I have to admit I learned a lot about how Stern builds pinball machines. That was an incredible video about Stern. I was super impressed by the process. After seeing it I realized just how hard it really is to build one of these things. Kaneda for example keeps saying for JJP to hire more people... its not that easy. Building pinball machines is simply NOT easy.

But Deeproot knew that otherwise why would they take your money. I do give credit where credit is due, designing and building the prototype is hard but not that hard... the hard part is manufacturing.

It’s NOT easy.

#1216 6 months ago

reading through this topic is really sad.
RAZA looks actually really cool, but all this that is happening around that pin in the moment....

has anyone contacted deeproot for an update? i quess when you make a preorder, they obviously should answer and give information right?

hope that all ends well.

#1217 6 months ago

I will take anybody’s slot if they want out. Shoot me a pm. I’m all in baby.
Seriously, I’ll take your slot, I’ll confirm with RM if it’s okay to do so.
This game and it’s rules look REALLY good.
Why? Because I like taking chances and I don’t care what other people think.

You show them RM! Stay strong and forge on.
I don’t blame him for saying “if you want out , fine..no problem, here’s your refund..hit the the bricks!”
Well at least that’s what I picture in my mind. Lol!!!

If this comes out and is good as it looks, he‘’ll be able to tell all the naysayers to go pound sand.
Or it fails and I lose all my money! Lol. Oh well. Life goes on.

#1218 6 months ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I was being totally serious. I have to admit I learned a lot about how Stern builds pinball machines. That was an incredible video about Stern. I was super impressed by the process. After seeing it I realized just how hard it really is to build one of these things. Kaneda for example keeps saying for JJP to hire more people... its not that easy. Building pinball machines is simply NOT easy.
But Deeproot knew that otherwise why would they take your money. I do give credit where credit is due, designing and building the prototype is hard but not that hard... the hard part is manufacturing.
It’s NOT easy.

I agree. 100%.

-1
#1219 6 months ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

well in all fairness, part of that logic is very sound. If you take a refund/money, that is a 100% chance you will never get a game. Very true.
It's interesting that RM has not only not showed any progress pictures in nearly 6 months now, but has explicitly not mentioned anything about what they could have been doing during this time, waiting for parts.. like "playfields are cut and printed, ready to go!" or "100 cabinets are completed with art".. "Shipping cartons are in and ready for games" or even - "there has been a lot of RAZA downtime while waiting on parts and UL cert, which has been poured into our second title which is playable and close to being revealed" .. something along those lines, anything. Sure he doesn't "have to" do this, but ya'd think logically anyone in his position WOULD do this if things were actually happening on Raza.

Not all business owners have the same business model in terms of communication.
For example:
Damian from Haggis: big communicator. Awesome.
Gary Stern and Stern pinball as a whole: very little communication.
Is Jersey Jack giving announcements why they’re behind on production?

I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m just saying that there’s nothing to read into because he doesn’t offer specifics.

#1220 6 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

I will take anybody’s slot if they want out. Shoot me a pm. I’m all in baby.
Seriously, I’ll take your slot, I’ll confirm with RM if it’s okay to do so.
This game and it’s rules look REALLY good.
Why? Because I like taking chances and I don’t care what other people think.
You show them RM! Stay strong and forge on.
I don’t blame him for saying “if you want out , fine..no problem, here’s your refund..hit the the bricks!”
Well at least that’s what I picture in my mind. Lol!!!
If this comes out and is good as it looks, he‘’ll be able to tell all the naysayers to go pound sand.
Or it fails and I lose all my money! Lol. Oh well. Life goes on.

Wow - you are a gambler. I have a deposit in and I am hardly that confident. I see this as 50-50 at best...I just don't have a lot on the line so I am deciding what to do.

#1221 6 months ago
Quoted from wamonkey:

Wow - you are a gambler. I have a deposit in and I am hardly that confident. I see this as 50-50 at best...I just don't have a lot on the line so I am deciding what to do.

Those are great odds at Vegas!
Yeah no I hear ya. It’s tough but I refuse to stress over a pinball machine.
If I do, I need to find another hobby!

That’s part of the adventure of buying into a start up company. You get to be part of something that may end up being very special. It’s fantastic!
Sometimes you get a turd too though...but that’s okay! Lol.

#1222 6 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

Those are great odds at Vegas!
Yeah no I hear ya. It’s tough but I refuse to stress over a pinball machine.
If I do, I need to find another hobby!
That’s part of the adventure of buying into a start up company. You get to be part of something that may end up being very special. It’s fantastic!
Sometimes you get a turd too though...but that’s okay! Lol.

Lets hope for no turds -

-1
#1223 6 months ago
Quoted from BertoDRINK1:

You lost me at "Bro"

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bro-please-bro-just-try-it

I'm sorry, sometimes I forget I'm talking to boomers on here

#1224 6 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bro-please-bro-just-try-it
I'm sorry, sometimes I forget I'm talking to boomers on here

What’s a boomer?
Is that a compliment or an insult?

#1225 6 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bro-please-bro-just-try-it
I'm sorry, sometimes I forget I'm talking to boomers on here

zzzaerhhaaeh (resized).jpg
11
#1226 6 months ago

I'm officially out! Hoping they do honor the refund they're offering.

#1227 6 months ago
Quoted from TaTa:

I'm officially out! Hoping they do honor the refund they're offering.

Good luck wish you well.

#1228 6 months ago
Quoted from TaTa:

I'm officially out! Hoping they do honor the refund they're offering.

Did you receive a response from Robert on that? I made an inquiry for details but have not received a response.

#1229 6 months ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Did you receive a response from Robert on that? I made an inquiry for details but have not received a response.

Oh no no no, Robert's far to busy going down that huge list of people just waiting to get their money in. After he finishes the list of thousands, I'm pretty sure he will get right back to you cause he's a swell kinda guy !

#1230 6 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

The whole point of RAZA is proof of concept, manufacturing, delivery, customer service, and everything that comes after customers have the pins in their homes. If they pull this off, even with a very small production run, the tide will turn in deeproot’s favor.

Are you trolling or are you actually being serious? Product development is incredibly expensive. Do you seriously think that, in a competitive market, any company can afford to develop a complete title just to get their feet in the water?

Things like creating game-specific artwork, game-specific code, game-specific animations, game-specific parts, production tooling, game-specific prototypes, several years of wages of the design team cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not more) and are very difficult to recoup for a single machine. Let alone developing 2 machines with the goal of only selling 1 one them.

#1231 6 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

I will take anybody’s slot if they want out. Shoot me a pm. I’m all in baby.
Seriously, I’ll take your slot, I’ll confirm with RM if it’s okay to do so.

RM said not to ask him about this yet because the list has already grown from what it was before.

#1232 6 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

The last post RM was saying it was the U/L certification. This time not even a mention of it. But now blaming a labor shortage. But what about the U/L cert. No update on that. This is getting frustrating.

I agree that the UL certification should have been addressed at a minimum given the prior comments about it being one of the things that was (supposedly) slowing them down.

But if you wanted a real/meaningful update, and DR was capable of giving one, it would consist of something to show that they were actually making real progress on getting the pin made, even if well behind schedule.

For example, they could have shown pics of stacks of playfields that they obtained from their supplier (I assume they aren't making the pf's themselves?), or empty cabinets, or even just boxes of various mechanisms that were going to being going into the game. A stack of backglasses perhaps?

Instead they show absolutely nothing. Objectively, there is zero proof that DR is anywhere near being ready to actually build RAZA. None. Zip. Nada.

The question is why haven't they shown any of these things?

#1233 6 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

I agree that the UL certification should have been addressed at a minimum given the prior comments about it being one of the things that was (supposedly) slowing them down.
But if you wanted a real/meaningful update, and DR was capable of giving one, it would consist of something to show that they were actually making real progress on getting the pin made, even if well behind schedule.
For example, they could have shown pics of stacks of playfields that they obtained from their supplier (I assume they aren't making the pf's themselves?), or empty cabinets, or even just boxes of various mechanisms that were going to being going into the game. A stack of backglasses perhaps?
Instead they show absolutely nothing. Objectively, there is zero proof that DR is anywhere near being ready to actually build RAZA. None. Zip. Nada.
The question is why haven't they shown any of these things?

I didn't know that when you guys signed the NDA it meant no information to you from DR.

#1234 6 months ago

I'm still in on this, and will be patiently waiting. The update in April already told us there would be no news really for the May update. I'm expecting things to start flowing in mid-summer. I only put down the 10% deposit, which I have no worries about. It proves my resolve, to guarantee my spot in the line. Its a new company and I have faith in the people involved and will be happy when I have an extremely rare machine that is really fun to play.

#1235 6 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

Not all business owners have the same business model in terms of communication.
For example:
Damian from Haggis: big communicator. Awesome.
Gary Stern and Stern pinball as a whole: very little communication.
Is Jersey Jack giving announcements why they’re behind on production?
I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m just saying that there’s nothing to read into because he doesn’t offer specifics.

I see your point, but when confidence is down on your company and skepticism is high, what do you do? Sit there emailing out ‘updates’ that give little info and show no valid progress for 6 months on something that was set to ship 5 months ago? Stern and jjp have nothing to prove, all confidence is with them despite delays. There is no question GnR games will ship, stern is a manufacturing machine. And Haggis is doing it right, for a startup.

Not to mention for all of Roberts ego, don’t you think as a new company you’d be proud to post pictures of all these playfields , cabs, and translites ready to go?? Manufacturing line????! Unless.... somethings amiss? We all know the octo manufacturing was bullshit. There’s no trade secrets to hide, only what isn’t happening.

#1236 6 months ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Oh no no no, Robert's far to busy going down that huge list of people just waiting to get their money in. After he finishes the list of thousands, I'm pretty sure he will get right back to you cause he's a swell kinda guy !

Actually he’s always responded to any email.

-4
#1237 6 months ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

I see your point, but when confidence is down on your company and skepticism is high, what do you do? Sit there emailing out ‘updates’ that give little info and show no valid progress for 6 months on something that was set to ship 5 months ago? Stern and jjp have nothing to prove, all confidence is with them despite delays. There is no question GnR games will ship, stern is a manufacturing machine. And Haggis is doing it right, for a startup.
Not to mention for all of Roberts ego, don’t you think as a new company you’d be proud to post pictures of all these playfields , cabs, and translites ready to go?? Manufacturing line????! Unless.... somethings amiss? We all know the octo manufacturing was bullshit. There’s no trade secrets to hide, only what isn’t happening.

You have each shared your Same point. If you want pictures or more info just go buy one! Sheesh you guys Really need to find a new hobby other then days of Deeproot.

#1238 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

You have each shared your Same point. If you want pictures or more info just go buy one! Sheesh you guys Really need to find a new hobby other then days of Deeproot.

Lol - we’ve all made the same points over and over again. all the drama is here, and I’m very interested to see what happens. I think this is simply discussion, no one repeated the exact same thing. But if you prefer the thread can sit dormant again till July.

Also I can’t go buy one until they all ship..

#1239 6 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bro-please-bro-just-try-it
I'm sorry, sometimes I forget I'm talking to boomers on here

Any time you feel like a 40 yard foot race or push up challenge let me know. I ain't no boomer.

#1240 6 months ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

Lol - we’ve all made the same points over and over again. all the drama is here, and I’m very interested to see what happens. I think this is simply discussion, no one repeated the exact same thing. But if you prefer the thread can sit dormant again till July.
Also I can’t go buy one until they all ship..

Thanks see you in a few months. Silence has more value then the continuous drum beating of jibberish.

21
#1241 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Thanks see you in a few months. Silence has more value then the continuous drum beating of jibberish.

Pinside would be a very boring place if no one posted and there were no discussions. You have the ability to ignore or drain if you don't want to read someone's different opinion than your own. I don't understand people's need to try and silence others. Either don't read or dont comment if you wish. Or continue to comment, but others have the right to comment and discuss as well, even if you don't agree. You are welcome to heed your own advise if you want...

#1242 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Thanks see you in a few months. Silence has more value then the continuous drum beating of jibberish.

Awesome, value your contributions to forum discussions too, thanks

-2
#1243 6 months ago
Quoted from Calfdemon:

Pinside would be a very boring place if no one posted and there were no discussions. You have the ability to ignore or drain if you don't want to read someone's different opinion than your own. I don't understand people's need to try and silence others. Either don't read or dont comment if you wish. Or continue to comment, but others have the right to comment and discuss as well, even if you don't agree. You are welcome to heed your own advise if you want...

In the Owners thread, No I don't care about your view, opinion, as a non owner. Thanks.

#1244 6 months ago
Quoted from boustrophedonic:

This was actually the main reason I didn't take a chance on the deposit. If there were a healthier profit margin, they would be more motivated to ship on time and deliver a quality product with good software. But with lower margins, it would seem there could be less motivation for shipping something decent since the payoff is mainly an intangible like reputation. BTW, that's not to say it can't work... for example, WOZ was inexpensive and high quality.
In many industries, companies price high for early adopters and then drop the price as they sell more, as the startup & fixed costs can be spread across more units.

Fair points.

26
#1245 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

In the Owners thread, No I don't care about your view, opinion, as a non owner. Thanks.

Ain't no owners here. Maybe someday...

#1246 6 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

Bro lol, this is why theres even people who are still owed games. Just stay in on MG,RAZA,AIW bro, it'll be fine bro, don't pull out or we'll all miss out on our games bro.
Then it was sign up with DR or take a refund and Don't take the money bro, DR is going to make everything OK, don't take the refund or you'll never get your game!
Good luck

Go away...bro.

#1247 6 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

I will take anybody’s slot if they want out. Shoot me a pm. I’m all in baby.
Seriously, I’ll take your slot, I’ll confirm with RM if it’s okay to do so.
This game and it’s rules look REALLY good.
Why? Because I like taking chances and I don’t care what other people think.
You show them RM! Stay strong and forge on.
I don’t blame him for saying “if you want out , fine..no problem, here’s your refund..hit the the bricks!”
Well at least that’s what I picture in my mind. Lol!!!
If this comes out and is good as it looks, he‘’ll be able to tell all the naysayers to go pound sand.
Or it fails and I lose all my money! Lol. Oh well. Life goes on.

#1248 6 months ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Ain't no owners here. Maybe someday...

Very true. The investors thread. IE, already made the decision. The all things to hate about Deeproot thread is already there for all to beat the drum. To be honest at this point deposit or otherwise I only want DR to make this game for one single reason. To smile and watch that group crawl back under a rock. Again, Why this has become such a "holly then thou" thing for some in that group taking swipes at people that simply bought something They Want is absolutely comical. Dislike what you wish but crap on them not us. I do not follow angry mobs to take a side, I choose my own path and make my own decisions. As everyone in this thread has.

#1249 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

In the Owners thread, No I don't care about your view, opinion, as a non owner. Thanks.

No one here is an owner. I didn’t realize the threads were so exclusive , yeesh

#1250 6 months ago
Quoted from TaTa:

I'm officially out! Hoping they do honor the refund they're offering.

Sorry to see you go...but I do understand...take care!

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