(Topic ID: 283944)

RAZA Pre-order Club: A Cautionary Tale

By NoMonkey

11 months ago


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  • 253 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 days ago by jeffspinballpalace
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“Which Edition Did You Order”

  • Arcade 27 votes
    52%
  • Xtra 25 votes
    48%

(52 votes)

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#1151 6 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Lol. Yes, pinside will be the reason dr fails. Thats why Zidware fai

They are out of $$. Id have my calendar set for june 1, to get that refund.

What’s sad is it really feels like they really want to make refund and maybe switch to the next pin for whatever reason ... yes maybe money.
I really thought Raza to have a good potential with great artworks... Now, getting a refund or not, real risk for sure.
The BBB stories showed that project could go to the end even after several years after schedule but what is strange here is they don’t seem to trust their own product.

11
#1152 6 months ago

If RM is going to call it quits on this machine just say so and give everyone a refund until they figure out the direction of there company. Otherwise this is feeling like a grift. I trust Ben Heck way more to begin with but tried giving these guys a chance for what looks like a sweet machine.

#1153 6 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

If RM is going to call it quits on this machine just say so and give everyone a refund until they figure out the direction of there company. Otherwise this is feeling like a grift. I trust Ben Heck way more to begin with but tried giving these guys a chance for what looks like a sweet machine.

There may be contractual issues with just dumping it, regarding the people that are "Being made right" from Jpop days. Or it's ego, and not wanting to admit straight up this is failing. Or no quitzees yet and they are going to keep waiting and hope $ doesn't run out before they can get all parts in, the game UL certified, manufacturing setup, people hired and trained, game testings done, and Razas shipped out the door w/enough money left to put into their next pin?

That's all I can think of? Because otherwise, if you know you are pulling the plug, AND you intended to move on - why waste another cent on Raza? Save all resources left to keep afloat with something else.

#1154 6 months ago

Still a race between TBL and RAZA...
At this point TBL in November may be the winner.

#1155 6 months ago
Quoted from NashtyFunk:

Still a race between TBL and RAZA...
At this point TBL in November may be the winner.

were you an EA or is this for a new order?

#1156 6 months ago

New on TBL from Cointaker. Nov of 2020.

Quoted from Mbecker:

were you an EA or is this for a new order?

14
#1157 6 months ago

Saw this thread was “on fire” so checked it out - another deeproot sob story. I like the tone in this one though. They’re basically like yes, we’re delayed but what’s new.

Dear customer - if you are an idiot and want to see this thing burn to the ground, it’s on you. If you want your money back (please take your money back as we can’t build this thing) here is your chance!

Seriously, anyone not taking their money back at this point is just someone who doesn’t give an F about money. What a complete train wreck.

#1158 6 months ago
Quoted from noitbe1:

What’s sad is it really feels like they really want to make refund and maybe switch to the next pin for whatever reason ... yes maybe money.
I really thought Raza to have a good potential with great artworks... Now, getting a refund or not, real risk for sure.
The BBB stories showed that project could go to the end even after several years after schedule but what is strange here is they don’t seem to trust their own product.

Well if someone had confidence in them and knew the next machine would be built and what it will be then that might make sense. BBB was special and a known quantity but still a huge risk, with some amazingly patient people.

But, RAZA interested me for the art, theme, etc. Game play looked good. I didn't really care if it had a Pinbar or not, to me, I just wanted something not Stern with a theme I liked - ship me a RAZA without a Pinbar I don't care (you could make game selections with flippers like other games do), your phone could be used for the other features with a QR code. I was just tired of Stern stuff and Mando continues to prove why I am done with Stern for a while. BTW - I said the same thing about LZ from Stern too, they are pumping out some junk in my opinion (yes - haters - I get at least they are putting something out).

Who knows maybe American Pinball will build somethings really compelling. Hot Wheels looks kind of neat just not the theme I hoped for.

I thought they were going to have some announcement soon....who knows that could drive refunds too.

Deeproot is just hard to understand why they do what they do. Refund everyone - have faith in your product like you said and sell it when it is ready. No one should be made to feel they are at risk if you are a legit business.

#1159 6 months ago
Quoted from wamonkey:

I think this is what it must be like to be looking at the BBB remakes

Nope, not even close. By this point in the BBB run, we had regular updates via a special forum, and Euro games had already shipped to meet RoHS deadlines.

BBB, we knew they wanted to get it done, just would there be enough cash to do it? Answer was Gene got it done.

RAZA folks are just screwing around with your money.

#1160 6 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

Nope, not even close. By this point in the BBB run, we had regular updates via a special forum, and Euro games had already shipped to meet RoHS deadlines.
BBB, we knew they wanted to get it done, just would there be enough cash to do it? Answer was Gene got it done.
RAZA folks are just screwing around with your money.

Yeah - you are likely right.

Zidware people should likely be the only ones to ride this out because they have nothing to lose that is not already lost.

#1161 6 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Satisfied with the May update from deeproot. It’s what I anticipated, no surprises. Let’s see what the July update brings!

You sir...are either rich, a fool or both.

#1162 6 months ago

I’m riding this out. The money isn’t really a concern. I believe some day I’ll get my game.
If I’m wrong it’s not gonna ruin my day.

#1163 6 months ago
Quoted from noitbe1:

This update says basically there is no update and, beside of the tone with « happy birthday » mention, it feels like RM is frustrated as well and is hiding things regarding probably manufacturing problems.
They are really acting like they no longer have trust on Raza and no longer root (no joke) for their first pin and maybe are already thinking of the 2nd title hoping the boat will still be afloat...
Seriously, i don’t think they could survive to a big fail regarding their first pin, they HAVE to make it right...

What is there to hide?

„We made no progress. You can have your money back if you don‘t want to wait. We‘ll sell those slots to others.“

He‘s avoiding getting shit, by refunding, while still planning to fulfill those orders (just to others).

Who‘d order their second game at this state?

#1164 6 months ago
Quoted from wamonkey:

Well if someone had confidence in them and knew the next machine would be built and what it will be then that might make sense. BBB was special and a known quantity but still a huge risk, with some amazingly patient people.
But, RAZA interested me for the art, theme, etc. Game play looked good. I didn't really care if it had a Pinbar or not, to me, I just wanted something not Stern with a theme I liked - ship me a RAZA without a Pinbar I don't care (you could make game selections with flippers like other games do), your phone could be used for the other features with a QR code. I was just tired of Stern stuff and Mando continues to prove why I am done with Stern for a while. BTW - I said the same thing about LZ from Stern too, they are pumping out some junk in my opinion (yes - haters - I get at least they are putting something out).
Who knows maybe American Pinball will build somethings really compelling. Hot Wheels looks kind of neat just not the theme I hoped for.
I thought they were going to have some announcement soon....who knows that could drive refunds too.
Deeproot is just hard to understand why they do what they do. Refund everyone - have faith in your product like you said and sell it when it is ready. No one should be made to feel they are at risk if you are a legit business.

I feel the same way as you do regarding the new « product » or «new way to do it » other than Stern and so on...
Something is sure and probably make all agreed on: DR should at least had hired someone to communicate better with a better approach with how to deal with customers and marketing stuffs...

#1165 6 months ago

After reading RM’s letter a few times I feel like he is ready to throw in the towel. Might have been different if he had 500 pins ordered. He just didn’t have his shit together. I feel bad but I will most likely take the refund. More stuff coming out down the road that will probably interest me.

#1166 6 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

What is there to hide?
„We made no progress. You can have your money back if you don‘t want to wait. We‘ll sell those slots to others.“
He‘s avoiding getting shit, by refunding, while still planning to fulfill those orders (just to others).
Who‘d order their second game at this state?

Making no progress might be related to manufacturing issues. Anyway that’s conjecture...

#1167 6 months ago

Now to address the elephant in the room. How many of us preorders are going to ask for a refund after this latest announcement?

#1168 6 months ago
Quoted from NashtyFunk:

I’m riding this out. The money isn’t really a concern. I believe some day I’ll get my game.
If I’m wrong it’s not gonna ruin my day.

Good for you -

The other forum says you are crazy. I realize your deposit is likely not a huge amount of money but no one wants to throw money away.

I think I want to reflect on this a bit. My guess is a solid # of a very small run is likely going to bail and if this is only for Zidware people what are they out? Nothing because they were going to get nothing anyway....or likely nothing at least....

Just seems foolish now....

#1169 6 months ago

I am in a no panic HODL pattern..

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#1170 6 months ago

As I read the email again RM says you can request the refund and they will start June 1st. I guess I read that as you can request the refund at any time, they will start processing requests on June 1st.

Not that you have to wait until the 1st to request.

I am reflecting on it now, someone convince me otherwise, but I think I will likely bail. This is the curse of pinball as people wait for pre-orders or the latest or greatest other stuff comes out you may want. I think it might be wise to just try and get that refund because for some reason I feel like that is what Deeproot wants and who knows the refund offer may not be fulfilled either way but not trying guarantees uncertainty and hanging on for an unknown schedule.

Before I said I was going to ride this out - now - hmmmm...

Doubt it.

#1171 6 months ago
Quoted from frankmac:

I am in a no panic HODL pattern..[quoted image]

To the moon!?!

#1172 6 months ago

If this latest message means they are just trying to get away from RAZA and move on to a game they feel will sell better, then they can issue refunds to those who bail and announce that there are too few orders left to justify making RAZA. The remaining few (including Zidware people) would then be given the choice of a refund or changing their order to the next game. You might ask why not just offer everyone this option now? Two reasons: (1) because they want to blame dropping RAZA on the people taking a refund, and (2) they intend to price the next game a lot higher now that they know they priced RAZA too low.

It's much worse if they are trying to get out from under RAZA but have no plans to move on to another title.

#1173 6 months ago
Quoted from NoMonkey:

Just wait for the mid-May update and then asses.

So the May update is followed by a collective mooning. I can't wait to learn what's in store following the July update. ; >

#1174 6 months ago

Oh boy! Not to sure about this company!

-2
#1175 6 months ago
Quoted from delt31:

Saw this thread was “on fire” so checked it out - another deeproot sob story. I like the tone in this one though. They’re basically like yes, we’re delayed but what’s new.
Dear customer - if you are an idiot and want to see this thing burn to the ground, it’s on you. If you want your money back (please take your money back as we can’t build this thing) here is your chance!
Seriously, anyone not taking their money back at this point is just someone who doesn’t give an F about money. What a complete train wreck.

Take your wisdom to the other thread, so you can get the pointless "Up Votes" you are after.

I'm in and not worried about it. I'm helping the original buyers hopefully get their games by not pulling out.

#1176 6 months ago

Crazy is always in the eye of the beholder. Granted buying a pin shouldn’t carry the same risk of say buying crypto or investing in stocks, but that’s how I have to look at this one.
Either I’m going to get something that I think is awesome, or I’m gonna be stuck holding an empty bag. Either way there’s nothing I can do to change what the eventual outcome is going to be, so might as well just ride it out.

Quoted from wamonkey:

Good for you -
The other forum says you are crazy. I realize your deposit is likely not a huge amount of money but no one wants to throw money away.
I think I want to reflect on this a bit. My guess is a solid # of a very small run is likely going to bail and if this is only for Zidware people what are they out? Nothing because they were going to get nothing anyway....or likely nothing at least....
Just seems foolish now....

#1177 6 months ago
Quoted from wamonkey:

My guess is a solid # of a very small run is likely going to bail and if this is only for Zidware people what are they out? Nothing because they were going to get nothing anyway....or likely nothing at least....

I get your point on the Zidware people but must differ. This is their second, multi-year long roller coaster ride from hell. And they have had their "deposit" in years before the new people did. True, they will return to their original financial loss but the anxiety they have suffered has taken an emotional toll. Most had reconciled the loss long ago, only to have their hopes raised and then crushed again.

The people on Jpops very long, uncollectable bankruptcy list got over it years ago. And they've had a much easier time of it without Deeproot's involvement.

#1178 6 months ago
Quoted from NashtyFunk:

Crazy is always in the eye of the beholder. Granted buying a pin shouldn’t carry the same risk of say buying crypto or investing in stocks, but that’s how I have to look at this one.
Either I’m going to get something that I think is awesome, or I’m gonna be stuck holding an empty bag. Either way there’s nothing I can do to change what the eventual outcome is going to be, so might as well just ride it out.

That is the way I look at it as well. I'm still in with my small deposit.

#1179 6 months ago
Quoted from littlecammi:

If this latest message means they are just trying to get away from RAZA and move on to a game they feel will sell better, then they can issue refunds to those who bail and announce that there are too few orders left to justify making RAZA. The remaining few (including Zidware people) would then be given the choice of a refund or changing their order to the next game. You might ask why not just offer everyone this option now? Two reasons: (1) because they want to blame dropping RAZA on the people taking a refund, and (2) they intend to price the next game a lot higher now that they know they priced RAZA too low.
It's much worse if they are trying to get out from under RAZA but have no plans to move on to another title.

They can announce 20 titles, they still have no way to manufacture 1 though. It will be RAZA all over again, and again. The 5 days of announcements!!

#1180 6 months ago
Quoted from NashtyFunk:

Crazy is always in the eye of the beholder. Granted buying a pin shouldn’t carry the same risk of say buying crypto or investing in stocks, but that’s how I have to look at this one.
Either I’m going to get something that I think is awesome, or I’m gonna be stuck holding an empty bag. Either way there’s nothing I can do to change what the eventual outcome is going to be, so might as well just ride it out.

What if you get it, and its not awesome, no parts to be had and nobody wants to buy it from you? Because that is in your future.

#1181 6 months ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

Big upvote on the Plymouth Road Runner ! Really Nice.

Thanks man...I really do appreciate that!

#1182 6 months ago
Quoted from NashtyFunk:

I’m riding this out. The money isn’t really a concern. I believe some day I’ll get my game.
If I’m wrong it’s not gonna ruin my day.

Same position for me. I have waited more then 5 months for Many lessor titles and luckily the decision is mine and not that of the collective. We received an update while not what we wanted a continuing update which is all I expect. Honestly may even scoop up another should the opportunity happen.

#1183 6 months ago

Then at least it’s pretty. That’s a risk I’m willing to take. Basically every pin I’ve ever bought has been sight unseen and without playing it and I’ve been very happy.
If I have a $10k piece of junk, then it is what it is and I’ll enjoy the rest of the collection.

Quoted from Roostking:

What if you get it, and its not awesome, no parts to be had and nobody wants to buy it from you? Because that is in your future.

#1184 6 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

The last post RM was saying it was the U/L certification. This time not even a mention of it. But now blaming a labor shortage. But what about the U/L cert. No update on that. This is getting frustrating.

I agree that the status of the U/L certification should have been addressed in this update.

#1185 6 months ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

They haven't hired anyone because of a labor shortage? Last time I checked a lot of people were out of work because of the pandemic??

The labor shortage is very real because “someone” thought it would be a good idea to increase and extend unemployment benefits til God knows when and as a result many people are making more money sitting at home than they would be working. It is a major problem right now.

#1186 6 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

The labor shortage is very real because “someone” thought it would be a good idea to increase and extend unemployment benefits til God knows when and as a result many people are making more money sitting at home than they would be working. It is a major problem right now.

So its the govt fault dr fails. I can see that actually, how many small businesses were put out of business, by "govt" this past year..

This is not why dr will ultimately fail though.

#1187 6 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

So its the govt fault dr fails. I can see that actually, how many small businesses were put out of business, by "govt" this past year..
This is nit why dr will ultimately fail though.

Appreciate your input and advise. We will let you know how it goes. Thanks again.

#1188 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Appreciate your input and advise. We will let you know how it goes. Thanks again.

Oops, thought I was posting in the reality thread to be honest. Either way...

#1189 6 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Oops, thought I was posting in the reality thread to be honest. Either way...

No worries. Join your reality and have fun!

#1190 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

No worries. Join your reality and have fun!

I like to spread reality to the masses, and it seems, some are waking up

#1191 6 months ago
Quoted from Scandell:

You sir...are either rich, a fool or both.

Neither. I am fully aware of all the red flags as I’ve said before and a $500 gamble hardly makes me rich. I’m just a regular dude that thinks RAZA looks cool, has a theme that really resonates with me, and is something different than what all the other manufacturers are doing. I appreciate your kind words.

#1192 6 months ago
Quoted from Stemmy:

Now to address the elephant in the room. How many of us preorders are going to ask for a refund after this latest announcement?

This update changed nothing for me...I’m still 100% in.

#1193 6 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

This update changed nothing for me...I’m still 100% in.

Good for you making your own decisions! Never figure out how this ever became personal buyers vs the non-buyers debate? Dislike the company but hard to see how this needs to be personal against us or our decision. Odd though not concerning.

#1194 6 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I get your point on the Zidware people but must differ. This is their second, multi-year long roller coaster ride from hell. And they have had their "deposit" in years before the new people did. True, they will return to their original financial loss but the anxiety they have suffered has taken an emotional toll. Most had reconciled the loss long ago, only to have their hopes raised and then crushed again.
The people on Jpops very long, uncollectable bankruptcy list got over it years ago. And they've had a much easier time of it without Deeproot's involvement.

I'll let you know the response to my "inquiry".

#1195 6 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

The labor shortage is very real because “someone” thought it would be a good idea to increase and extend unemployment benefits til God knows when and as a result many people are making more money sitting at home than they would be working. It is a major problem right now.

I still get stuff done at my company everyday. Do I get as much as I wish I'd get done? No. Do we still ship product. Yup.

You can name a million causes for delays since last April, but at the end of the day the rest of us small businesses have had to adapt, change, and overcome.

DR ain't special. They have just failed you guys over and over.

I hope you guys get your game's, but I'm happy I got cold feet and kept my 900 bucks. Because as I remember February was the expected ship date. Now your going to wait for another "insert economic or political based excuse here" to come in July from a company with a past like DR...

Good luck.

#1196 6 months ago
Quoted from wamonkey:

I am reflecting on it now, someone convince me otherwise, but I think I will likely bail. This is the curse of pinball as people wait for pre-orders or the latest or greatest other stuff comes out you may want. I think it might be wise to just try and get that refund because for some reason I feel like that is what Deeproot wants and who knows the refund offer may not be fulfilled either way but not trying guarantees uncertainty and hanging on for an unknown schedule.
Before I said I was going to ride this out - now - hmmmm...
Doubt it.

I would never try to convince anyone on what to do in this situation. You have to make the decision that’s best for you. That being said, here are my honest thoughts...

Deeproot did not sell as many RAZAs as they initially were hoping, but I don’t think they were surprised by it because of the negativity surrounding them, their many failed launches and delays, and the many other failed start-ups.

The price point for RAZA was insane considering the features. There is twice as much “stuff” as a Stern Pro which costs more. The RAZA Ae was $5899 if I remember correctly. They were never going to make much money on this title at that price point which leads me to my next point.

They no longer care how many RAZAs they manufacture and ship. Whether it’s 130 or 30, as long as they deliver some. They probably wouldn’t mind many getting refunds as there simply isn’t any money to be made on this title. If it seems like they are almost encouraging refunds, well, maybe they are?

The whole point of RAZA is proof of concept, manufacturing, delivery, customer service, and everything that comes after customers have the pins in their homes. If they pull this off, even with a very small production run, the tide will turn in deeproot’s favor. Which leads me to my final point.

They already disclosed future standard pricing. If I remember correctly it was $8k for the Ae and $13k for the Xtra. At those price points, with a title like Goonies, there will be real money to be made. And those price points are very competitive right now, especially when you consider all the additional features a deeproot pin has that their competition doesn’t.

In summary, RAZA is just to get their feet wet, learn the ropes, and show what they can do from a design and gameplay standpoint...not make money...that will come later “if” they can pull this off. I know one thing, if RAZA actually ships and deeproot survives, you will never be able to get a pin again with that many features at that price point and I’ll be happy to own one.

Final thought...I’d say we can put to rest the idea that this is some sort of elaborate scam. Deeproot already made whole some Zidware customers and are now offering RAZA refunds to those that want them...enough said.

#1197 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Good for you making your own decisions! Never figure out how this ever became personal buyers vs the non-buyers debate? Dislike the company but hard to see how this needs to be personal against us or our decision. Odd though not concerning.

Because we've seen people burned for 10s of thousands before by pinball con artists. JPOP is a suspect #1 in that category, but RM took him in, so they and dr are tied at the hip. People need to know the history. How inconvenient it might be.

Also, not personal. I dont think anyone doesn't want you to get a pin, but many people dont understand how anyone other than initial ZIDWARE buyers would touch this with a 10 foot pole. FOMO and potential scarcity make people do funny things with money.

Ive asked you before, what are the signs YOU see that makes you believe this will happen?

#1198 6 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

I would never try to convince anyone on what to do in this situation. You have to make the decision that’s best for you. That being said, here are my honest thoughts...
Deeproot did not sell as many RAZAs as they initially were hoping, but I don’t think they were surprised by it because of the negativity surrounding them, their many failed launches and delays, and the many other failed start-ups.
The price point for RAZA was insane considering the features. There is twice as much “stuff” as a Stern Pro which costs more. The RAZA Ae was $5899 if I remember correctly. They were never going to make much money on this title at that price point which leads me to my next point.
They no longer care how many RAZAs they manufacture and ship. Whether it’s 130 or 30, as long as they deliver.
The whole point of RAZA is proof of concept, manufacturing, delivery, customer service, and everything that comes after customers have the pins in their homes. If they pull this off, even with a very small production run, the tide will turn in deeproot’s favor. Which leads me to my final point.
They already disclosed future standard pricing. If I remember correctly it was $8k for the Ae and $13k for the Xtra. At those price points, with a title like Goonies, there will be real money to be made. And those price points are very competitive right now, especially when you consider all the additional features a deeproot pin has that their competition doesn’t.
In summary, RAZA is just to get their feet wet, learn the ropes, and show what they can do from a design and gameplay standpoint...not make money...that will come later “if” they can pull this off. I know one thing, if RAZA actually ships and deeproot survives, you will never be able to get a pin again with that many features at that price point and I’ll be happy to own one.
Final thought...I’d say we can put to rest the idea that this is some sort of elaborate scam. Deeproot already made whole some Zidware customers and are now offering RAZA refunds to those that want them...enough said.

Lol

Quoted from wrb1977:

I would never try to convince anyone on what to do in this situation. You have to make the decision that’s best for you. That being said, here are my honest thoughts...
Deeproot did not sell as many RAZAs as they initially were hoping, but I don’t think they were surprised by it because of the negativity surrounding them, their many failed launches and delays, and the many other failed start-ups.
The price point for RAZA was insane considering the features. There is twice as much “stuff” as a Stern Pro which costs more. The RAZA Ae was $5899 if I remember correctly. They were never going to make much money on this title at that price point which leads me to my next point.
They no longer care how many RAZAs they manufacture and ship. Whether it’s 130 or 30, as long as they deliver some. They probably wouldn’t mind many getting refunds as there simply isn’t any money to be made on this title. If it seems like they are almost encouraging refunds, well, maybe they are?
The whole point of RAZA is proof of concept, manufacturing, delivery, customer service, and everything that comes after customers have the pins in their homes. If they pull this off, even with a very small production run, the tide will turn in deeproot’s favor. Which leads me to my final point.
They already disclosed future standard pricing. If I remember correctly it was $8k for the Ae and $13k for the Xtra. At those price points, with a title like Goonies, there will be real money to be made. And those price points are very competitive right now, especially when you consider all the additional features a deeproot pin has that their competition doesn’t.
In summary, RAZA

I would never try to convince anyone on what to do in this situation. You have to make the decision that’s best for you. That being said, here are my honest thoughts...
Deeproot did not sell as many RAZAs as they initially were hoping, but I don’t think they were surprised by it because of the negativity surrounding them, their many failed launches and delays, and the many other failed start-ups.
The price point for RAZA was insane considering the features. There is twice as much “stuff” as a Stern Pro which costs more. The RAZA Ae was $5899 if I remember correctly. They were never going to make much money on this title at that price point which leads me to my next point.
They no longer care how many RAZAs they manufacture and ship. Whether it’s 130 or 30, as long as they deliver some. They probably wouldn’t mind many getting refunds as there simply isn’t any money to be made on this title. If it seems like they are almost encouraging refunds, well, maybe they are?
The whole point of RAZA is proof of concept, manufacturing, delivery, customer service, and everything that comes after customers have the pins in their homes. If they pull this off, even with a very small production run, the tide will turn in deeproot’s favor. Which leads me to my final point.
They already disclosed future standard pricing. If I remember correctly it was $8k for the Ae and $13k for the Xtra. At those price points, with a title like Goonies, there will be real money to be made. And those price points are very competitive right now, especially when you consider all the additional features a deeproot pin has that their competition doesn’t.
In summary, RAZA is just to get their feet wet, learn the ropes, and show what they can do from a design and gameplay standpoint...not make money...that will come later “if” they can pull this off. I know one thing, if RAZA actually ships and deeproot survives, you will never be able to get a pin again with that many features at that price point and I’ll be happy to own one.
Final thought...I’d say we can put to rest the idea that this is some sort of elaborate scam. Deeproot already made whole some Zidware customers and are now offering RAZA refunds to those that want them...enough said.

I had a whole wordy response ready, then figured, why? dr overpromised and still have not delivered anything.

They have spent millions and delivered nothing. They could spend that and still be as inept. Its crazy that you are looking at future pins to save them, when dr wont deliver on the first pin. I know nothing about pinball, but I know that making awesome animations is way easy, pinball is hard though. Yall throwing good money after bad. Take the bailout. I guarantee, you will find one of these in the wild if they are ever released.

#1199 6 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Because we've seen people burned for 10s of thousands before by pinball con artists. JPOP is a suspect #1 in that category, but RM took him in, so they and dr are tied at the hip. People need to know the history. How inconvenient it might be.
Also, not personal. I dont think anyone doesn't want you to get a pin, but many people dont understand how anyone other than initial ZIDWARE buyers would touch this with a 10 foot pole. FOMO and potential scarcity make people do funny things with money.
Ive asked you before, what are the signs YOU see that makes you believe this will happen?

Really? Not personal? Feel free to read your group chat including this thread for that groups call out of buyers, stupid, dopes, fools, cult, gullible, you can find the call outs yourself. Last I checked NOBODY on this buyers group took your or Anyones money. WE made a decision and NO I don't need to share why I made that decision with you! Why, because its really none of your business! I'm not here to sell you anything or persuade you with why I do anything. Trust me, by now we have ALL know the history, real, assumed, or other. Yet we made our decision. Save yourself time I personally don't need you to save me or convince me. I'm already convinced hence my Deposit! Come back to the thread in December with as many "I told you so's" as you like if that keeps you happy. Til then, you have all shared your wisdom and I personally thank you. I promise not to tell you what game you should or should not buy in the future. Promise!!

#1200 6 months ago

To those that think moving on to a different title is a good idea...

Terrible idea! RAZA has to happen first or deeproot is done. There has to be that first title that proves themselves and shows they can do it. No matter what title is first, sales will be abysmal, it does not matter. There are not enough risk takers regardless of the title to make their first offering a big success.

RAZA HAS TO HAPPEN FIRST...

Then, and only then, can other titles follow once they have gained the pinball community’s confidence that they are for real and can deliver. Yes, they have a long road ahead of them, but not an impossible road.

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