(Topic ID: 29902)

Raven - what makes it bad?


By Tighe

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 53 posts
  • 28 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by pinballslave
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 4 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

GENESIS_translite_LR.jpg
qssttng.jpg
raven.JPG
raven_translite.jpg

There are 53 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 6 years ago

Is it just the backglass? Cause I saw a really cool custom one on ebay, and I am not talking about the bikini one.

This one is awesone! Of course the leopard print on the cabinet would have to go! Maybe steel and riviots?

ebay.com link » Gottlieb Raven Pinball Custom Alternate Translite

Here is the photo bikini one everyone has seen:

ebay.com link » Raven Pinball Alternate Translite

#2 6 years ago

I have one.... if not set up well it can be a crap fest....

It can be a fun pin and its not easy either....if your trying to finish the ruleset...

but it must be dialed in just right to play well...

and have the strongest coils for the SYS80b in it....

the pop up sniper targets are COOL..... ie. Cactus Canyon....

I really like Gottlieb games, and have a pile of them.. Raven can be a great game for the $...

-1
#3 6 years ago

And to answer your other question, yes lots of people hate the translight and the artwork...

But i think it fits the game well, if the game is in nice condition, it looks OK...

The alternate translights are way better though, and make the game look WAY better...

#4 6 years ago

I like the translight

#5 6 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

I like the translight

I do too. It makes me think of the glory days of arcades. I'm not much of a fan of the game, but I'm sure somebody, somewhere thinks this games rules. Rock on!!!

#6 6 years ago

I think the bikini version is done really well and fits the theme. Never played the game though.

#7 6 years ago

I like the campy-ness of Raven.

#8 6 years ago

IMO it is one of the overall ugliest games ever made. (for the record Genesis is horrid as well)

#9 6 years ago

I'll be blunt: It's a Gottlieb.

Gottlieb turned to crap after 1982.

#10 6 years ago

Because Raven gets a bad rap, you can usually buy one for about the same price as an average EM, $650-$700 working. It's a lot of game for the money, plays fast and has some good shots. I swapped my translite out with a version that I sell. I'm a graphic artist so I get to apply my tools of the trade to my fav hobby. I've also done a Genesis, that's one bad piece of art direction! The machine itself is kind of cool.

raven_translite.jpg

#11 6 years ago

Man, I remember playing a Raven at the local bowling alley!! I never forgot those sniper targets popping up during game play, when the title was long forgotten for me, the sniper targets were still fresh in my mind...

#12 6 years ago

Its the translight.

Heres an improved version but i like the others posted better!

// Error: Image 52921 not found // raven.JPG

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from CreativeOne:

Because Raven gets a bad rap, you can usually buy one for about the same price as an average EM, $650-$700 working. It's a lot of game for the money, plays fast and has some good shots. I swapped my translite out with a version that I sell. I'm a graphic artist so I get to apply my tools of the trade to my fav hobby. I've also done a Genesis, that's one bad piece of art direction! The machine itself is kind of cool.

That is the art I linked to. That is awesome! I love it. I frequently see Raven selling for very cheap, like right now there is one in NH for $450.

nh.craigslist.org link

10
#14 6 years ago

it's a solid pin, but pin snobs hate gottlieb because they can't show off to their friends that they dropped 6k on the same fan layout again.

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from ButtonMash:

it's a solid pin, but pin snobs hate gottlieb because they can't show off to their friends that they dropped 6k on the same fan layout again.

+1 I have an ass load of Gott's and they are great, and with the gorung mod they have been pretty much bullet proof too...

#16 6 years ago

It is true there is a lot of pinsnobs that can't like a great game like Haunted House or Black Hole.

#17 6 years ago

Did you mean "Ground Mod"?

#18 6 years ago

Yes tons of them... i have a pile of SYS80B games, and i love em, and believe it or not the very snobs that are B/W guys like em too, but they would never throw them next to their MM, or CC..

sucks to be them !

for 8K i have 9 gottlieb's 2500 of that is in the Tx-Sector whitewood...

for 8K you get a shitty routed MM that needs work.... not for me ...i will take the Gott's all day long..

#19 6 years ago

Yes tons of them... i have a pile of SYS80B games, and i love em, and believe it or not the very snobs that are B/W guys like em too, but they would never throw them next to their MM, or CC..
sucks to be them !
for 8K i have 9 gottlieb's 2500 of that is in the TX-Sector whitewood...
for 8K you get a shitty routed MM that needs work.... not for me ...i will take the Gott's all day long..

I have no such qualms, while I don't have a Gottlieb I have an old Stern:

qssttng.jpg

#20 6 years ago
Quoted from CreativeOne:

Because Raven gets a bad rap, you can usually buy one for about the same price as an average EM, $650-$700 working. It's a lot of game for the money, plays fast and has some good shots. I swapped my translite out with a version that I sell. I'm a graphic artist so I get to apply my tools of the trade to my fav hobby. I've also done a Genesis, that's one bad piece of art direction! The machine itself is kind of cool.

Any chance of creating a new playfield overlay and plastics to go with your translite?

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from diskoboy:

I'll be blunt: It's a Gottlieb.
Gottlieb turned to crap after 1982.

Huh? Sounds like a narrow-minded view. Play a TX- Sector once or a Genesis once.. then get back to me.

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from Schusler:

Huh? Sounds like a narrow-minded view. Play a TX- Sector once or a Genesis once.. then get back to me.

+10000000000

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from CreativeOne:

I swapped my translite out with a version that I sell. I'm a graphic artist so I get to apply my tools of the trade to my fav hobby.

That is an excellent backglass, I don't have the machine and I want one.

#24 6 years ago

Gerry, I missed played your TX @ Expo! Don't you have the vitrigraph one as well? I was hounding somebody on RGP to sell theirs - no budging!

Sadly, Premier wasn't represented @ Expo this year. I put a butt-load of play on a Gottlieb Rock these past years and didn't even see that one....

#25 6 years ago

If you don't love the original Raven translite, I don't know what to tell you.

It would be like criticizing Ninja III: The Domination for lack of realism.

...although CreativeOne's translite is definitely nicer than the other one with the machine gun floating around

#26 6 years ago

No Vitro....

Mine is a whitewood..well you already know that.... LOL

I would like a standard production one as well go go along side the WW

next year i will bring it back for ya...

Maybe a Big House too...

And Robo War for that matter

#27 6 years ago
Quoted from ButtonMash:

it's a solid pin, but pin snobs hate gottlieb because they can't show off to their friends that they dropped 6k on the same fan layout again.

Damn - that was a serious callout. I love it!

#28 6 years ago
Quoted from CreativeOne:

Because Raven gets a bad rap, you can usually buy one for about the same price as an average EM, $650-$700 working. It's a lot of game for the money, plays fast and has some good shots. I swapped my translite out with a version that I sell. I'm a graphic artist so I get to apply my tools of the trade to my fav hobby. I've also done a Genesis, that's one bad piece of art direction! The machine itself is kind of cool.

650-700? you'll be sitting on it for years at that price. More like 300-400. You'll even have a hard time moving SF2 for $700.

#29 6 years ago

Wha - this game looks like awesome fun! I've got to find one.

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

650-700? you'll be sitting on it for years at that price. More like 300-400. You'll even have a hard time moving SF2 for $700.

Maybe in Wisconsin, or 4-5 years ago, but not today. SF pin has been on the uptick ever since the Street Fighter/fighting game resurgence thanks to SFIV. It now seems to be a solidly $1100 - $1300 pin in terms of easy-to-move price. And I was just at an auction where a half-working Monte Carlo went for almost $1300, so I'm betting a fully-working Raven would've done just fine.

#31 6 years ago
Quoted from JoeJet:

Its the translight.
Heres an improved version but i like the others posted better!

Hahah, that was actually mine that I brought to Allentown and sold Saturday. The story behind that is the backglass broke and the seller I bought it from didn't have the translight. I wanted to bring it to the show because it played well and would offset a ticket price. So I made that out of board (I had planned to do some other things like a drawn helicopter but ran short on time) The line you see faintly in the picture is from my 3 year old daughter thinking it was a good idea to color on lol

It got played well at the show. I'm not sure how many people noticed that I mounted leds under the rockets of the helicopter on the playfield and ran the wires to a flashing gi- it was kind of neat because in attract mode they would flash, and also when you nailed the spinner during gameplay. You can kind of see it in the picture.

On another note, that Dolly next to it was fun- I rolled that over on the first game I played on it.

#32 6 years ago

I have a nice Raven but I don't have the translight. I have been considering the one with the chick holding the M-4. I like the WW2 nose art style one posted but I am not so sure it really fits. After all the the play field on the raven has a girl carrying an M-16. Just an overlay of the bonus multiplier circle with some sort of WW2 plane or the girl would make for a nice re theme.

Does raven use glass or plastic for the translight?

#33 6 years ago
Quoted from ButtonMash:

Maybe in Wisconsin, or 4-5 years ago, but not today. SF pin has been on the uptick ever since the Street Fighter/fighting game resurgence thanks to SFIV. It now seems to be a solidly $1100 - $1300 pin in terms of easy-to-move price. And I was just at an auction where a half-working Monte Carlo went for almost $1300, so I'm betting a fully-working Raven would've done just fine.

In my area, SF is still a $700 pin all day long. I've passed on two at that price. $1K+ is dreaming.

#34 6 years ago

The little blue score displays are the all time worst.Terrible sound,just not a great pin.Now the Gottlieb System 1 stuff I love and they made a bunch of great EM's in the 70's.They have some of the best drop target games ever!!!

#35 6 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

In my area, SF is still a $700 pin all day long. I've passed on two at that price. $1K+ is dreaming.

Well yeah, prices on every product known to man is going to be pretty different between NC and LA.

Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

The little blue score displays are the all time worst.

Really? That's one of the best parts of the gottliebs from this era. So incredibly 80s.

#36 6 years ago

I think the issue with Gottliebs in general from the 80s and early 90s was the geometries of the playfield. I have a Pinbot and a SMB, and the SMB by comparison feels 'clunky'. The Williams machines seem to have smaller, tighter, more refined setup. I think Gottlieb's flipper bats, posts, ramps, etc all feel bigger and clunkier. It creates more visual clutter and less room and finesse for shots. I know that's a nebulous description. It's kind of like road-feel in a car. You can tell from looks, and from 'feel' while playing, that it's just not as nice.

Aside from that, the problem with using photo backglasses is that they retain the 'dated' look of the era. At least with drawing the stylization tends to reduce that effect somewhat.

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

I think the issue with Gottliebs in general from the 80s and early 90s was the geometries of the playfield. I have a Pinbot and a SMB, and the SMB by comparison feels 'clunky'. The Williams machines seem to have smaller, tighter, more refined setup. I think Gottlieb's flipper bats, posts, ramps, etc all feel bigger and clunkier. It creates more visual clutter and less room and finesse for shots. I know that's a nebulous description. It's kind of like road-feel in a car. You can tell from looks, and from 'feel' while playing, that it's just not as nice.
Aside from that, the problem with using photo backglasses is that they retain the 'dated' look of the era. At least with drawing the stylization tends to reduce that effect somewhat.

SMB is a great table if you are talking about the full size! I have not played the kiddie one. I almost think it is more fun than Pinbot.

#38 6 years ago

Raven still hasn't gone up and either has SF2. They are both sub $700 games. Even if I had one next door to me fully working, I still wouldn't buy it for $700. Or even $600. I'd be sitting on it for over a year before selling it. I don't want to be sitting on a shit pin for a year. Hell, i'm having a hard time selling nice and good games for reasonable amounts.

#39 6 years ago
Quoted from Gerry:

And to answer your other question, yes lots of people hate the translight and the artwork...

People who hate on the artwork with this era/system are missing VERY creative game designs. Hollywood Heat is an awesome gem in the rough with incredibly cheesy artwork.

Raven, IMO, is the most vanilla of the set. It's not horrible, but it's not wow'ing anyone either. It's also not so PC and makes for an interesting 80's time capsule containing our hard on for Rambo/Vietnam action pieces. The target based gameplay was supposedly a homage to Firepower, which I can definitely see.

Luckily, it's a cheap game. So if you're worried about "investments" in this hobby, it doesn't get less risky than this.

Re: SMB -- Part of Gottlieb's issue has always been...and I am always saying this...the flippers. Although I wouldn't compare System 3's consistent design decisions to other eras. There were a lot of awkward design decisions...some pretty creative...some that add to the "clunkiness" I think you're feeling. SF2 is still a very lovable pig. So is SMB (flame suit on...I think the SMB tables get more of a pass than the other System 3's just because of its theme...but that's another thread).

#40 6 years ago

Any chance of creating a new playfield overlay and plastics to go with your translite?

I was going to do something for the Raven cabinet after I finish some artwork for Genesis. A playfield overly may not be a bad idea either, although I don't know how many people would go to the time and effort for a Raven. I think that the perils of war have become too much of a reality today (than it was in 1986), so toning it down and giving the military theme a little more class and sexiness was behind my creative intent.

For Genesis, I've done a translite, and will be adding cab art, and custom decals for the drop targets and pop bumpers. Maybe something for the lower skirt too. It takes a lot of time to pull the art together, it's good to know that there is some interest out there!

Whatever the prices are in your area, the Gottlieb games are good value for the money, I agree. How can one go wrong paying in the $600 range for a working solid state game? DMD games are through the roof here in Ontario, Canada, as are a lot of the mid eighties Williams and Bally games. My buddy calls the Gottliebs "the last good value that remains in pinball".

GENESIS_translite_LR.jpg

#41 6 years ago
Quoted from shacklersrevenge:

Hahah, that was actually mine that I brought to Allentown and sold Saturday. The story behind that is the backglass broke and the seller I bought it from didn't have the translight. I wanted to bring it to the show because it played well and would offset a ticket price. So I made that out of board (I had planned to do some other things like a drawn helicopter but ran short on time) The line you see faintly in the picture is from my 3 year old daughter thinking it was a good idea to color on lol

Thanks for bringing the game.. i enjoyed playing and was thankful i didnt have to look at the original backglass!

#42 6 years ago
Quoted from Tighe:

Did you mean "Ground Mod"?

What's the ground mod?

#43 6 years ago

Played a Barb Wire yesterday. Didn't seem bad at all. Good graphics, some tough shots. Couldn't hear anything and the middle of the playfield was too dark with missing lights...but it's not like I threw up in my mouth or anything playing it. Seemed very solid too. Like a new Stern!

#44 6 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

What's the ground mod?

To quote PinWiki,

"When the Gottlieb® System 80 board set was designed, for whatever reason, the designers did not physically attach each board to a common ground plane via a conductive back panel, standoffs and screws as Bally and Williams did. Instead, Gottlieb® relied on connectors and wires between each board to create a common ground. A poor connection due to dirty/damaged/fatigued connector pins will sever the ground between system components resulting in all sorts of odd behavior."

Upgrades to the grounds need to be done.

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Ground_updates

#45 6 years ago

I'm a big fan of the System 80 series in general. I've even come around to take a liking some of the ones I disliked before: Goldwings is a prime example. Must admit as much as I tried to like Raven - just couldn't do it. This and Spring Break are probably my least favorite System 80B pins.

I think we have to admit if Raven had a hotter chick, we would just overlook the gameplay!

Speaking of which, what modeling agency did Premier use? Have you ever seen some of the chicks on Bad Girls!

#46 6 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

I think the issue with Gottliebs in general from the 80s and early 90s was the geometries of the playfield. I have a Pinbot and a SMB, and the SMB by comparison feels 'clunky'. The Williams machines seem to have smaller, tighter, more refined setup. I think Gottlieb's flipper bats, posts, ramps, etc all feel bigger and clunkier. It creates more visual clutter and less room and finesse for shots. I know that's a nebulous description. It's kind of like road-feel in a car. You can tell from looks, and from 'feel' while playing, that it's just not as nice.
Aside from that, the problem with using photo backglasses is that they retain the 'dated' look of the era. At least with drawing the stylization tends to reduce that effect somewhat.

Kinda get what you're saying.... but in all fairness, you're comparing one of Williams, gems to not one of the finest Premier products. The Gottlieb bats are more bulky (it's been like that since System 1?) Not sure about the ramps though. Never had an issue w/ Gottlieb ramps in general besides the cheap plastic they used. The 'visual clutter' reference is probably due to the layout of your two examples. Pinbot is like an open football field in the middle of the playfield. You want to see visual clutter? Take a look at CFTBL. Cripes you can't even see half of the playfield. Mind you I'm still a fan of it.

As far as the backglass, I might be in the minority, I'm a fan of the 'dated look". Especially if you're a fan of the '80s in general. Some of my favs: TX-Sector, Robo-War, Hollywood Heat (big Miami Vice fan), Bounty Hunter Class of 1812, Stargate. Some of my dislikes: Raven (chick is butt-ugly), Bad Girls (same m.o.), Spring Break (dude in the speedos needs to go away), Victory (Indy car w/ guns?)

Now my biggest gripe is the ONE standard light fixture in the backbox - how cheap! Bally 6803 series did this as well. But how cool would it have been to put some flashers or lamps in these backboxes.

#47 6 years ago

Speaking of which, what modeling agency did Premier use? Have you ever seen some of the chicks on Bad Girls!

2 are hot ...1 is not ! the butchy haired one...

although i would probably bang any of them if they were buns up kneeling in my bed

#48 6 years ago

''I think we have to admit if Raven had a hotter chick, we would just overlook the gameplay!
Speaking of which, what modeling agency did Premier use? Have you ever seen some of the chicks on Bad Girls!''

Obviously frequent patrons of the blue oyster bar...

One of their Gottlieb/Premiers biggest mistakes imo, wasn't the fact that they cost cut and tried to make simpler pins, but that they must have cut their art team off and hired noobs in order to try and set a new trend in pinball.

Examples of this: Rocky, Spirit, Black Hole, MGOW, HH, All easily recognized classics with a fantastic art direction.

Bad girls, Raven, Monte Carlo, Gold WIngs, Hollywood heat, etc, all very fun pins to play, but fall way short becuase of their bland art on the playfield and ridiculous translights. One of the big reasons I like ROCK is because the translight is drawn.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, you could stare at Raven for an hour just wondering who in the world thought this was IT- this was cool?....and just keep repeating those two thoughts in your head

#49 6 years ago

I forgot about Rock/Encore - would love to find one local!

#50 6 years ago
Quoted from shacklersrevenge:

''I think we have to admit if Raven had a hotter chick, we would just overlook the gameplay!
Speaking of which, what modeling agency did Premier use? Have you ever seen some of the chicks on Bad Girls!''
Obviously frequent patrons of the blue oyster bar...
One of their Gottlieb/Premiers biggest mistakes imo, wasn't the fact that they cost cut and tried to make simpler pins, but that they must have cut their art team off and hired noobs in order to try and set a new trend in pinball.
Examples of this: Rocky, Spirit, Black Hole, MGOW, HH, All easily recognized classics with a fantastic art direction.
Bad Girls, Raven, Monte Carlo, Gold Wings, Hollywood Heat, etc, all very fun pins to play, but fall way short becuase of their bland art on the playfield and ridiculous translights. One of the big reasons I like ROCK is because the translight is drawn.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, you could stare at Raven for an hour just wondering who in the world thought this was IT- this was cool?....and just keep repeating those two thoughts in your head

There's a good interview with John Norris here describing the business model at Premier, explains a lot about the why there games were produced as they were. Check it out.

http://www.papinball.com/John_Trudeau_Interview.html

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 10.00
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Gweem's Mods
$ 299.00
Displays
Boston Pinball Company
€ 8.40
From: $ 3.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
$ 20.00
Playfield - Decals
Metal-Mods
$ 7,599.00
Pinball Machine
Operation Pinball
$ 5,799.00
Pinball Machine
Classic Game Rooms
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 26.95
$ 279.95
$ 269.00
Cabinet - Other
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
$ 20.99
Lighting - Interactive
Lee's Parts
$ 8,500.00
Pinball Machine
Hobbit Black Arrow Out of stock
Operation Pinball
There are 53 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside