(Topic ID: 145229)

Rating EM-Pins (?)


By rolf_martin_062

3 years ago



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  • 29 posts
  • 18 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by xTheBlackKnightx
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    #1 3 years ago

    Hi pinsiders
    I decided to rate pins. I started rating "pins I own right now, a collection of pins I (heavily) used to play in my youth". Maybe I will rate "pins I do not (want to) own - but played at the time".

    I have some questions:
    "Ballot stuffer / troll voting": Do I "troll vote" when I (first) rate "my loved ones" ? (Must I do 50:50 rating of "pins I love and own" <-> "pins I used to play, but are not good enough to "want me to have it in my collection"" ?) See: https://pinside.com/pinball/help/how-to-rate-a-machine -> "Users that have ONLY ratings at the top or bottom ... will not receive an approved status" (?).

    "Categories of EM-Pins" (?): At this moment "Kings and Queens, Gtb 1965" is on top, No-2 is "Rocket, Wms-59", "Lucky Hand, Gtb-77 and World Fair, Gtb-64, Abra Ca Dabra, Gtb-75 are on place-3, -4, -5", MANY "old EM's" are in the "Top-40". Can we rate "Rocket-59 is much better than Abra ca Dabra" ?
    Should we have "Sub-Categories": Flipperless / Gobble Holes / still 2 inch flippers / 3 inch flippers ?

    "Need for rating 4-player-pins AND (the same pin) 2-player-pin"?: Example: "Outer Space, Gtb-72, 2 player" is rated No-27, "Orbit, the "same pin", Gtb-72, 4 player" is rated No-84. For me: this is the same pin -> should there be a "combined rating" ? - or do I have to rate both ? (I love Orbit, must I rate Outer Space ?, giving it the same rating - NEVER played an Outer space ?)

    "Quantity / number of ratings": "Orbit" has 4 ratings - Outer Space also has 4 ratings - the one after Outer Space (Jacks Open) has 27 ratings - should there a minimum of (lets say) 10 ratings "for to be eligible into the "Top-100's"" ? A factor in the "rating-points" depending on "how many ratings" ?
    Greetings Rolf

    #2 3 years ago

    Rate them however you want. It only makes sense that you'd give high ratings to games you own, you bought them because you like them. 2 and 4 player games deserve different ratings, at least they'll have different art. I don't know how the top 100 works but its a little wonky because EMs get WAY fewer ratings. Do your part and rate as many as you can to fix it!

    The only problem is when someone gives every game they own a 10 or every game from some company a 1.

    #3 3 years ago

    I hate the way the ratings work. It is clunky, time consuming, and I don't think it reveals what the reviewer really thinks about a game. I have often gone through the tedious process of rating a game, only to be disappointed with my "final score". I then have to go back and edit the individual category rankings to "fix" my rating. I think it would be far more revealing and helpful if we all just did a rank order list. i'm not sure how to translate it into the final rating, but I imaging something like the way a tournament works. Perhaps a game receives 100 points for a #1 ranking, 95 points for #2, and so on. Not sure how it would affect the final rankings, but it seems that something like this would better reflect the users true opinions.

    #4 3 years ago

    The tough part in rating EMs is that many have never played it even heard of them. Many of the MODs here have never played them either, so they can be hard to judge based on individual merits or even making a good comparison. Some are VASTLY different in design.

    Bottom line, share your experience. I do not even have the time to rate them all, and many do not even have photos. That would help the site for uploads.

    #5 3 years ago

    The ratings are a big clunky. I've personalized my rating preferences as much as I can, and rated each game carefully and honestly, and still have games in my ratings list that I like more rated lower than games I like less. There are games I like that have bad art that are better than games I like that have great art, but because I am honest about the art, the entire rating suffers... even though I have the "art" importance slider as low as I can make it.

    Mostly, the game ratings are just fun. Put time into writing a good written review, and everything will take care of itself.

    #6 3 years ago

    Don't worry so much about the rating system on EMs. What we are interested in is the game play and rules and what your overall thoughts of the machine are.

    #7 3 years ago

    Hi
    thanks for Your answers.
    I am glad to see "I am not the only one to have thoughts / questions on "actual way the pinside-rating works". Also: "... Game play and rules, (my: ) LASTABILITY, FUN". It would be nice to see "ranking as is - and in parentheses behind "would be ranked at "Position-XY" when ONLY "Lastability / Fun" were used for rating". Means: Is there a strong / tight correlation "Overall ranking" <-> "ranking only by Lastability / Fun".

    Pinside claims "ranking shall help Newbies to chose the "right" pin. I miss the position (scale of 3 or of 5 possibilities) "for Newbies <- - - - > for skilled players", ranking the factor "Luck". This new position would not influence the rating - it would only be a help for "choosing the right pin".
    So I consider "comments (when rating) is VERY helpful - so I write (Fun Fest) "The factur Luck is quite dominant" ...

    Nice to see, funny: We are individuals (different ratings): My Number-1 "Far Out" is considered as "Poor man's version of Fast Draw". Well, I like Fast Draw - but I like to have Slingshots and "Gates / Ball Return".
    Greetings Rolf

    #8 3 years ago

    The sample size is so low on EM top 100, the list is almost pointless. IPDB has a bit of a bigger sampling.

    #9 3 years ago
    Quoted from Wickerman2:

    The sample size is so low on EM top 100, the list is almost pointless. IPDB has a bit of a bigger sampling.

    Bigger sampling, but nonuniform rating system. Result is ratings that are not only extremely subjective, but all over the board including many obvious troll/spite ratings.

    Ratings are worthwhile for supporting information when provided. Resultant "top 100" rankings are limited in accuracy and value.

    #10 3 years ago

    I've found it very hard to rate games as my pinball interest seems so bi-polar. Sometimes I'm convinced I love a game because I own it. I have sold some that I thought I loved and found out I don't really miss them at all. There are others I sold too soon and discover I miss them greatly. There have been plenty of games that I know were great players but for whatever reason didn't hold my interest. Some I am so in love with the art it seems to elevate the rest of the game. So to give a fair an honest rating that is useful to someone else is extremely challenging. It's so subjective and not necessarily a constant.

    #11 3 years ago

    It is a shame there are no historic records of earnings.

    That is another way to evaluate games because the better games earned the most usually.

    For example Kings and Queens was a massive earner in the 60's according to Op's who had them on location.

    #12 3 years ago

    EM ratings seem pretty meaningless to me. The EM era covers such a broad spectrum of game styles. One more good rating might put Rocket on top? How does that happen? They may have only made about 300 of them but it is a good game. Can't imagine many have played it, but mine did outlast the number one game as far as staying power is concerned.

    #13 3 years ago

    The top rated machines are the ones you never see for sale. A good example is "Fireball".

    #14 3 years ago

    I've had three Fireballs and they come up for sale quite a bit around here as they made a bunch of them. It is Capersville and the other multiball games that I don't see come up often.

    #15 3 years ago

    Any ratings are totally subjective to the person rating a game. The main thing is this, "EM games do indeed need more ratings entered in to this site".

    There are some very bad playing EM, and even bad looking EM games that were made (IMHO). But there are people who will have a different opinion than you or I.

    Here is an example. Williams Strike Zone. Look it up. The Tan/Mustard cabinet colour does not stand out. Pale yellow Backglass doesn't stand out either. The Bowling Theme is good. The pins light up in the backglass as they are hit, which is kind of cool. Getting all of the bowling pin playfield buttons takes a few well placed shots. Getting the Replay lit is a challenge. It is harder to play than it looks. Even with an Up-Post and a Ball Gate. On Pinside this pin has only had 7 threads posted. It will always fall low on any rating page as there are not enough of them around to play.

    #16 3 years ago

    What I have found is if you go by what the masses say are the best games then you end up with a cookie cutter collection just like theirs. Same as with the newer machines. I think is best to do your own research and seek out gems that aren't discussed much and you can end up with more variety. That's what I did. Most of the heavy hitters are now down the road and aren't missed at all.

    #17 3 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    What I have found is if you go by what the masses say are the best games then you end up with a cookie cutter collection just like theirs. Same as with the newer machines. I think is best to do your own research and seek out gems that aren't discussed much and you can end up with more variety. That's what I did. Most of the heavy hitters are now down the road and aren't missed at all.

    Some of the heavy hitters I like, some I don't. I have a nice selection of EM's now too. Seven! Not too bad.... Capersville looks interesting. They made quite a few of them. Odd that you don't see them around too often. It took me many years to find a Fireball, though.

    #18 3 years ago
    Quoted from tamoore:

    I have a nice selection of EM's now too. Seven!

    They're taking over! Most of my collection is now EM. After having been through quite a few, it is two inch flipper games that have taken over. Long flippers were great to win free games on when I was a kid, but don't present much of a challenge in the home environment. My guests seem to agree.

    #19 3 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    What I have found is if you go by what the masses say are the best games then you end up with a cookie cutter collection just like theirs.

    Meh, who cares if you have the same games as everyone else. They probably made 6000 of them and everyone loves it for a reason.

    #20 3 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    Meh, who cares if you have the same games as everyone else.

    Well, if you get the top rated games and nobody wants to play them because the unrated games you have are better or more fun, then what's the point? That's why I recommend do your own research. IPDB has pics and info of most games ever made.

    #21 3 years ago
    Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

    obvious troll/spite ratings.

    Haven't really examined them that closely...some similar titles to pinside.

    #22 3 years ago

    The big problem with the EM ratings is lack of people actually rating games. The more people who rate games the better the ratings will be. That said, the EM ratings are a lot better now than they were a year ago. Aside from Rocket, all of the games in the top ten now have 11 or more ratings. The higher those numbers go, the better. I would rate Rocket, but I have never played it.

    So the message is to start ratings EMs! (And don't be a spite rater)

    Most of the EMs that I have at this point are games that I have sought out because I had previously played and like them. No surprise I rate them high...

    #23 3 years ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    The big problem with the EM ratings is lack of people actually rating games. The more people who rate games the better the ratings will be. That said, the EM ratings are a lot better now than they were a year ago. Aside from Rocket, all of the games in the top ten now have 11 or more ratings. The higher those numbers go, the better. I would rate Rocket, but I have never played it.
    So the message is to start ratings EMs! (And don't be a spite rater)
    Most of the EMs that I have at this point are games that I have sought out because I had previously played and like them. No surprise I rate them high...

    Not sure what the 'top 100 EMs list' moderators use as a formula to allow games in the list. At this point I thought we were beyond 3 ratings to make the list. Perhaps they/he can chime in here to shed some light on the subject. BTW, I only rate games I have owned, not even played elsewhere like shows or the PHoF. I want to give the game a fair chance with it being fully restored and set up properly.

    #24 3 years ago
    Quoted from stashyboy:

    I want to give the game a fair chance with it being fully restored and set up properly.

    Bang on! Try rating a pin that is playing poorly, or has features that may not work.

    #25 3 years ago

    Throw up whatever ratings you want!

    My suggestion would be to add some text to each review to let us know what you ACTUALLY think of the game, though. A score of "7" doesn't say a fraction of what can be said in even a single sentence like "I love the art package and the playfield layout, but the rules make one shot too exploitable for the game to be worth playing long-term"

    2 weeks later
    #26 3 years ago

    The main issue is that unless you know a top EM collector or are a baby boomer many of these titles you never see or get to play. Even on IPDB some games like Pleasure Isle have only 3-4 ratings. With 235 examples made 50 years ago and put on route in NY CT & WI who actually has played this game or owns one? my opinion is that this game is the best EM ever made and I've played >90% of IPDB's top 300. and some trolls like Rober E Bask and SlickChick really eff up the overall score. My top 5 EM's are Pleasure Isle, Diamond Jack, cowpoke, Gold Strike, Dimension.

    #27 3 years ago

    Pleasure Isle is one of my favorite EMs, too. My preference has traditionally been toward replay games, but this is the only AAB in my collection and deservedly sits high on my list. It has it all - standup targets, slingshots, pop bumpers, dual animations in the head, in line kick out holes, 3 bells, and a continued play feature that allows you get up to 5 extra balls while playing.

    Good art work, too, although I wish Parker would have used the pretty girls from Paradise on the playfield instead of the ones on PI. Maybe he had too many pina coladas when he was drawing this design...

    And I agree that rating systems are all over the place. Games from the 70's play differently than those from the 60's, 50's, etc. And also differences in sound and feel are noticeable between Williams vs. Gottlieb vs. Genco.

    DeltaQueen is right - you need to go to a show, or visit with others who have EMs and experience them in person. See for yourself if the titles are worth all the hype. I'd rather have a well playing game that's "low" on the rating list than a poorly playing machine with a higher rating.

    J

    PI.jpg

    PI2.jpg

    #28 3 years ago

    I own twelve machines, mostly Wedgeheads. So I would have to rank the Gottlieb Wedgeheads as the most desirable pinball machines ever made! 2" flippers are better than 3" and the best wedgeheads were made between 1964 and 1975. The machines I own should be ranked as being the best! My point is, rankings mean nothing.

    #29 3 years ago
    Quoted from Darcy:

    Bang on! Try rating a pin that is playing poorly, or has features that may not work.

    Happens all the time by people on PinSide.

    Uneducated opinions that even state directly IN the write-up with words such as "the machine did not work". This is not even a review, and not worth the minimal effort provided.

    It just skews the game records.

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