(Topic ID: 118226)

Radical! 3rd kicker installed, weak?


By Chosen_S

5 years ago



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  • 29 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Chosen_S
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 5 years ago

I just installed the third kicker in my radical, it works, but feels really weak, I used the same coil that is in the other two kickers.

Since it is hooked to the board in a nontraditional sense, I suspect that maybe it is supposed not to be as strong as the other kickers... I am hoping to find that someone else can confirm my experience???

Thank you!

#2 5 years ago

Correct. you have to remember that the coil is being pulsed by the switch and therefore only is energised as long as the contact is closed whereas a CPU control would fire the coil for say 30ms you're probably seeing 10ms.
You can fit a stronger coil which would help, even a smaller rubber may improve it a bit as it'll keep the contact closed longer.

#3 5 years ago

Thats great to know, thank you, I may try the stronger coil route, is there a coil that you can recommend trying out?

#4 5 years ago

After playing quite a bit, I think I'm going to leave the coil as-is, the new kicker assembly added in adds just enough bump that it changes the top of the play field action enough to make it that much more exciting. anymore umph on the kick, and it may be too much, the 4 pop bumpers keep the ball in enough play with out having a kicker slinging a ball into it frantically all the time, so the 10ms and light bump is plenty

3 weeks later
#5 4 years ago

Can you explain where you found the info about the installation of the 3rd flipper? I'm going to begin tearing down my machine shortly.

Thanks

chris

#6 4 years ago

I installed the prototype mods. I did the 3rd kicker first and found that the Snake Run switch would not register using the proto ROMS. Once I completed the ball popper part it worked fine. The ball popper switch has a different action than the spot target switch in that it is held closed and not momentary. Perhaps that makes a difference in the proto ROMS.

The Radical! manual includes references to the 3rd kicker and the ball popper. See pg2-33 #17 and 31.

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from tdddddd:

I installed the prototype mods. I did the 3rd kicker first and found that the Snake Run switch would not register using the proto ROMS. Once I completed the ball popper part it worked fine. The ball popper switch has a different action than the spot target switch in that it is held closed and not momentary. Perhaps that makes a difference in the proto ROMS.
The Radical! manual includes references to the 3rd kicker and the ball popper. See pg2-33 #17 and 31.

I thought that the proto roms had unfinished code??? And missed rules and such...?

At any rate, where can we find the roms?

And can you please post pictures and info to the ball popper?
I'll go read the manual too

Quoted from ChrisS:

Can you explain where you found the info about the installation of the 3rd flipper? I'm going to begin tearing down my machine shortly.
Thanks
chris

Please read here... This thread explains the installation of the 3rd kicker

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/started-my-radical-project-today

#8 4 years ago

I don't know about unfinished code. I've played hundreds of games since the conversion (in 2008). Once Williams scaled back on the BOM I assume all the code updates went into the production ROMS. But the game is playable and a little more interesting than the production version, which I had already played for a couple of years.
IPDB has both the proto ROMS and pics, including the ball popper.
Your game is a good candidate for conversion if it has the removable panel on the Tail Slider ramp. Also check the harness for the wiring for the extra solenoids and kicker switches.

#9 4 years ago

Cool, you're calling it a popper?
Is this what you mean
The vertical up kicker??

image.jpg
#10 4 years ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

Cool, you're calling it a popper?
Is this what you mean
The vertical up kicker??

image.jpg

I found this may be the part?
Plus needing the wire form, and the subway...

http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/A-15769

I really want to do this mod, but I feel like I need to know everything before taking the plunge

#11 4 years ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

I found this may be the part?
Plus needing the wire form, and the subway...
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/A-15769
I really want to do this mod, but I feel like I need to know everything before taking the plunge

It's an up-kicker. The manual refers to it as a ball popper.

However the linked part won't work. You need the System 11 era version, which is not opto based. I have an extra, if you need it. Upload a pic like the one you posted, showing your game.

#12 4 years ago

Can you guys share some more information about the ball popper and how it works with the software? I mean how it's integrated. I don't have a radical but my buddy has one. We would like to try it out - but with any prototype software we want to be sure it's worth it.

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from Endprodukt:

Can you guys share some more information about the ball popper and how it works with the software? I mean how it's integrated. I don't have a radical but my buddy has one. We would like to try it out - but with any prototype software we want to be sure it's worth it.

Production: Snake Run has spot target blocking the gobble hole. When the ball hits that target, it bounces back into play while the Snake Run award is being selected/awarded in the backbox.

Prototype: The spot target switch is replaced by a "fork" switch on an under playfield ball popper. A shot into the Snake Run drops into the gobble hole and follows an under playfield ramp to the ball popper fork switch and sits there, activating the award sequence as above, but the ball is out of play. Once the Snake Run award is determined/awarded (on the boxbox), then the ball is popped back into play through a wireform to the X-ramp. Sometimes it remains on the ramp, making its way to the whirlpool. Usually it falls into the jet bumpers. The ball popper can also act as a ball lock when the Snake Run award is "Skate or Die". What happens then depends on whether you already have a ball locked in the main lockup.
The prototype also adds the 3rd sling kicker which sees a lot more action than the ball popper.
I also moved the flasher from under the Snake Run gobble hole to behind the backboard, where there is a hole routed behind the "explosion" plastic. I don't know if that was the design, but the harness reached and it lights the plastic from behind with a nice effect as it flashes.
Some examples are easier to convert than others. See clues in my earlier post.
[Special thanks to (NJ) Skeets for assistance with the conversion]

#14 4 years ago

Found my pictures... Not quite close ups, but the best I have until I get home

image.jpg image-177.jpg image-612.jpg
#15 4 years ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

After playing quite a bit, I think I'm going to leave the coil as-is, the new kicker assembly added in adds just enough bump that it changes the top of the play field action enough to make it that much more exciting. anymore umph on the kick, and it may be too much, the 4 pop bumpers keep the ball in enough play with out having a kicker slinging a ball into it frantically all the time, so the 10ms and light bump is plenty

An easy method to get a longer length pop out of a hard wired coil like this (powered by the switch) is to use an old gottlieb pop bumper trigger board. You hook it up to coil power and 5V and then the low voltage switch activates the board and the board gives a specifically timed coil shot (adjustable with a cap or resistor I forget which). Best of all it is a non-repeating board, meaning if the switch gets stuck closed the coil will not lock on, the switch needs to open up again in order for the coil to activate a second time.

#16 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

An easy method to get a longer length pop out of a hard wired coil like this (powered by the switch) is to use an old gottlieb pop bumper trigger board. You hook it up to coil power and 5V and then the low voltage switch activates the board and the board gives a specifically timed coil shot (adjustable with a cap or resistor I forget which). Best of all it is a non-repeating board, meaning if the switch gets stuck closed the coil will not lock on, the switch needs to open up again in order for the coil to activate a second time.

Looks like rottendog makes them, but would be nice if maybe you could expand on exactly what has to be done maybe a tutorial of sorts? Thank you for the heads up!

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

Looks like rottendog makes them, but would be nice if maybe you could expand on exactly what has to be done maybe a tutorial of sorts? Thank you for the heads up!

It's pretty self explanatory. Supply Ground and 5V to the board. Get solenoid power to the coil and run the coil ground to the board. Wire switch to the board and you are done.

Check the schematic to verify, but that's pretty much it.

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from tdddddd:

Production: Snake Run has spot target blocking the gobble hole. When the ball hits that target, it bounces back into play while the Snake Run award is being selected/awarded in the backbox.
Prototype: The spot target switch is replaced by a "fork" switch on an under playfield ball popper. A shot into the Snake Run drops into the gobble hole and follows an under playfield ramp to the ball popper fork switch and sits there, activating the award sequence as above, but the ball is out of play. Once the Snake Run award is determined/awarded (on the boxbox), then the ball is popped back into play through a wireform to the X-ramp. Sometimes it remains on the ramp, making its way to the whirlpool. Usually it falls into the jet bumpers. The ball popper can also act as a ball lock when the Snake Run award is "Skate or Die". What happens then depends on whether you already have a ball locked in the main lockup.
The prototype also adds the 3rd sling kicker which sees a lot more action than the ball popper.
I also moved the flasher from under the Snake Run gobble hole to behind the backboard, where there is a hole routed behind the "explosion" plastic. I don't know if that was the design, but the harness reached and it lights the plastic from behind with a nice effect as it flashes.
Some examples are easier to convert than others. See clues in my earlier post.
[Special thanks to (NJ) Skeets for assistance with the conversion]

Thank you Todd!
So appreciative!

Special thread located here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/radical-prototype-vuk-and-3rd-sling-add-on

#19 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

It's pretty self explanatory. Supply Ground and 5V to the board. Get solenoid power to the coil and run the coil ground to the board. Wire switch to the board and you are done.
Check the schematic to verify, but that's pretty much it.

Cool!
If I don't in fact have the original wiring present, I'll make a run at this, thank you!

#20 4 years ago
Quoted from tdddddd:

Production: Snake Run has spot target blocking the gobble hole. When the ball hits that target, it bounces back into play while the Snake Run award is being selected/awarded in the backbox.
Prototype: [Special thanks to (NJ) Skeets for assistance with the conversion]

Here's pics of my game... No hole for the vuk, I can add it in, I'm very good at wood working, I can cut a very nice hole, same with the plastic,

image.jpg
image-842.jpg

#21 4 years ago

Ball Popper addition - Before and After pics.
RAD_B4.JPGRAD_After.JPG
The flasher (lower left) was moved again after this pic to behind the backboard.

#22 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

It's pretty self explanatory. Supply Ground and 5V to the board. Get solenoid power to the coil and run the coil ground to the board. Wire switch to the board and you are done.
Check the schematic to verify, but that's pretty much it.

Got the board in, checking out the schematic... No pinout info that I understand, care to lend a hand ?

http://rottendog.us/PBB080-1.pdf

#23 4 years ago

I read the schematics and wired it all up... Long story short, Im pretty sure I fried the logic FET

I know I got 5v and ground correct...

But I wired up the switch or coil to it wrong

#24 4 years ago

OK, pulled out a Gottlieb MGOW schematic to check.

pin 1 goes to the coil, to the non banded side of the diode
pin 2 goes to ground
pin 3 is the key
pin 4 goes to your activation switch (the other side of the switch goes to ground)
pin 5 is the 5V signal
Pin 6 also goes to ground

I was slightly off, the game does have the ground side of the switch running to pin 6, but that is also the ground signal for the chips.

and run the coil voltage to the diode side of the coil. Not sure if this matters, but typically gottlieb was running only 25V to the coils. There is a 25V coil signal in the system 11 games but the poppers were typically driven by 50V, I think the slingshots were always 25V.

#25 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

OK, pulled out a Gottlieb MGOW schematic to check.
pin 1 goes to the coil, to the non banded side of the diode
pin 2 goes to ground
pin 3 is the key
pin 4 goes to your activation switch (the other side of the switch goes to ground)
pin 5 is the 5V signal
Pin 6 also goes to ground
I was slightly off, the game does have the ground side of the switch running to pin 6, but that is also the ground signal for the chips.
and run the coil voltage to the diode side of the coil. Not sure if this matters, but typically gottlieb was running only 25V to the coils. There is a 25V coil signal in the system 11 games but the poppers were typically driven by 50V, I think the slingshots were always 25V.

Right on, thank you!

I'll get me another transistor and plug away, I'll report back on how things go

#26 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

I was slightly off, the game does have the ground side of the switch running to pin 6, but that is also the ground signal for the chips.

Does this mean I wire the switch to pin 2 and 4

And daisy chain pin 2&6

And run a ground to pin 6?

#27 4 years ago

Yep
although technically this is the way Gottlieb has it:

switch to pins 4 and 6
daisy chain the ground to pins 2 and 6

Pin 2 ground is the coil ground and pin 6 is the logic ground. Williams shares all grounds so it doesn't matter as long as 2 is tied to 6 and both are tied to ground.

1 week later
#28 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Yep
although technically this is the way Gottlieb has it:
switch to pins 4 and 6
daisy chain the ground to pins 2 and 6
Pin 2 ground is the coil ground and pin 6 is the logic ground. Williams shares all grounds so it doesn't matter as long as 2 is tied to 6 and both are tied to ground.

This is interesting , I emailed Jim at rottendog about the gottleib board pbb080
And his response about the connections is this:

Pin 1 goes to high voltage and banded side of diode
Pin 2 goes to switch/transistor that grounds pin and to non banded side of transistor
Pin 4 goes to ground when you want to fire coil
Pin 5 goes to +5V
Pin 6 goes to ground

What do you think of the differences???

11 months later
#29 3 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

OK, pulled out a Gottlieb MGOW schematic to check.
pin 1 goes to the coil, to the non banded side of the diode
pin 2 goes to ground
pin 3 is the key
pin 4 goes to your activation switch (the other side of the switch goes to ground)
pin 5 is the 5V signal
Pin 6 also goes to ground
I was slightly off, the game does have the ground side of the switch running to pin 6, but that is also the ground signal for the chips.
and run the coil voltage to the diode side of the coil. Not sure if this matters, but typically gottlieb was running only 25V to the coils. There is a 25V coil signal in the system 11 games but the poppers were typically driven by 50V, I think the slingshots were always 25V.

Where does the lug on the non-banded side of the diode on the coil wire to?

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