We can keep throwing the thesaurus at each other, or get down to brass tacks. I will continue to complain about being fed bullshit and deception about this game from Jack the Salesman. When Jack the Business Owner wants to shoot straight with his investors, I am all ears.

You will continue to kiss Jack's ass, regardless of the hat he is wearing. Mostly, because you have a lot more info than the rest of Jack's customer base. And that is because you have a skill set that JJP needed long before you got involved. Toot your horn about your programming skill for us one more time as you pass, please. Some of us forgot how pleased you are with yourself.

I also don't call that turd box at E3 the 10 yard line. But, either way, let me tell you something about being stalled on the 10 yard line, as a Dallas Cowboys fan. That shit gets real old. And so is this bullshit.

Number 81 in Feb of last year....you up for it....

Are you 81st in the production line? Your LE number isn't the production number.

Not sure...but fairly early....I'll put my SM up or equivalent value?

I'm serious and we are in Texas...easy to settle....

FYI, the Loch Ness Monster DOES exists. A buddy of mine had it for a while. It's a Gameplan pin.

Now that is awesome Iceman. I support Jack 100% - excited for this game and have had no problem waiting.

I sympathize with you. Cowboys fan. Ouch

Go giants.

I'm hardly tooting my own horn. But when people spit stupidity about development times and programming it's annoying especially from people who aren't developers.

Blah blah the programming shouldn't take this long blah blah.

How much code have they written? HTML for their personal web page doesn't count

Same thing when people bag on lyman. The dude obviously has talent and loves what he does but is terribly overworked. Left alone he will produce awesome games under realistic timelines but considering he isn't given proper timelines you get games in piecemeal. Certainly not his fault he's only 1 person.

This is clearly an attempt to personally attack someone who isn't here to defend himself. It does not reflect favorably on you. You can call Jack any time and get an answer, instead you continually complain in public to people who can't help you, while ignoring the people who can.

I just think Jack should start telling everyone what he knows about his delays and setbacks on the programming side, and stop being blatantly deceitful about test games and 50 games produced in August and starting full production in September, etc... It is time for the hard, honest talk with his customers.

No. It's time for you to stop whining to the wrong people.

If I have an issue or concern with Jack, I'll call him.

Everybody else does.

Except for you.

So whatever it is you're doing here is not really what you claim it is.

Jack is absolutely here and can chime in any time he wants. Pinside is a pinball discussion community. This is a pinball discussion. Click out and head to the WOZ Group if you want. I am not about to start getting through to you again. You have an amazing ability to ignore words, sentences, facts and truths. Thank you for your concern, however.

Ok. Again, thanks.

You know I get what your saying and even agree... even though I am a JJP coolaid kid.

But, in the end he has to build the business and machine and try to keep up the hype so he can sell more machines.

I worked as a project manager for a large pharmaceutical company and every ghantt chart that was for selling the project was underestimated on purpose to sell it to whoever. So I think I get whats going on.

So I sit back and enjoy the ride. Just saying

He already did....he told me in person....so, are you in or out or full of BS?

I want to know where you are in production line. Best case scenario, I think that some WOZ will be produced prior to Christmas. I could see production being started around November, and for them to get as many as they can out by Christmas. If you aren't in the first 50-75 or so, I don't think you will see yours until 2013.

OMFG !!!!!!!!...let's get back to this stuff!

All I know is I'm number 81 and I'm willing to wager big tatties that I'll get mine before then.....yay or nay, its Christmas or bust, what do you think.....

Teddy, I know you want to bury your head in there.....

Does anyone know if there really is a waiting list for the ECLE? Aside from the rumor, is anyone here really on it? I was under the impression that they could still be guaranteed from a few dealers. Thanks...

I think pinballsales has a list of people that want an LE and could not locate one. Those people are waiting for anyone that drops out that has already ordered.
There is some assumption that a few distributors such as Automated Services have some LEs that they will mark up in price when the time is right to do so.

Man, I need a popcorn emotioncon for this thread and some beer emotioncons for this wager if it happens.

I have no dog in this fight nd don't know enough to comment. But, I think woz, when it is released, will meet everyones expectations, which are set high. Should be a great game and it is good for pinball to have two manufacturers.

I find these frequent WOZ bitch 'n moans to be so strange. I'm in for a WOZ, and I'm absolutely patient....I dunno, maybe it's me. I have plenty of pinball in my life so it's not as if I'm twiddling my thumbs with nothing to do till the game shows up.

Jack's been very transparent and kept updates flowing throughout the entire process. For some reason the E3 Machine has become some "BIG LIE CONSPIRACY COVERUP" for some people. Here's how I see it: Not every physical piece was ready yet, but they built a machine with what they had so far so they could show off a tangible unit. It wasn't ready for production yet, but it was a taste of what's to come! Since all the lights and mechs weren't ready yet, Keith didn't put the full code on there. Simple as that.

I find it really strange that some people are acting like Jack is still at the starting line with this thing because of the demo machine....some people are acting like Keith hasn't written any code because the demo machine didn't show any. C'mon guys, do you REALLY think that's how product development works? Do you really think Keith has been jamming on it for all this time and he's at square one?

The charges leveled against this game based on the demo machine are naive. The game is obviously further along than what we've been shown, and yes while I'd love to see some more stuff - I know the game will be finished relatively soon....a month, 6 months...I dunno, time flies pretty fast for me so it'll be done before ya know it.

Relax...if you bought one, you know it's coming. If you didn't buy one...*shrug*, who cares? Play it when it comes out and make a judgement then.

I can't wait for the Jpop threads 5 years down the road "When are these games going to be finished!" LOL ....

Which game had no sound? Proof?

Which pinball games have you programmed? I hate it when people make claims on how easy or difficult something is when they can't or haven't done it themselves. You cannot state how easy this is. Frankly, the only one posting here that can is keefer.

Ok now you are saying what I'm saying. So perhaps I simply misunderstood.

AMEX just told me 60 days, but said if it took 7 days to arrive, I could have a grace period.

She could not answer me if it took a year to receive my product, and said it is normally 60 days.

That is true that pinballsales has a wait list. That is according to Jack. He said it the same time he offered anyone that wants out a full refund. Very few have taken him up on that, some complain it is taking too long but stay in. They have their reasons. I suspect I has to do with a markup after the release.

Seldom do I a read a post where I agree with just about every word, but I truly couldn't have said it better myself

In other threads you said that none of us will likely see our pins till 2013 so why not take him up on his bet?

This thread is....

beatdeadhorsef9yp.gif

I didn’t order a WOZ (as of yet) but have considered it. I'm still thinking it over. So, I'm not biased either way. My opinion...

Didn’t the remakes of Big Bang Bar take over 4 years to produce? People that took all the risk in fronting $4500 to preorder it which was considerably more than a NIB at the time. Those people that picked it up are still probably laughing at the haters that relentlessly posted on RGP that the project would never be finished.

JJP or Jack seems as though he's done a lot of his homework and hired the right people. The progress they have shown so far is impressive and has gotten a lot of enthusiasts interested including myself.

Many have already stated the obvious that it's a new company, pinball platform etc. HUGE undertaking and risk to take in today’s economy. For every update post from the JJP I'm sure they are much further along in their milestone.

There was an update this month and June etc. I'm not sure why people are complaining...

I'm sorry I did not see this thread sooner (really?) not really......Gambit, you are a customer, you even bought a JJP hoodie. My phone number is everywhere, why post to beat that dead horse? Just call me....come and visit me.....

If I look back I would say that I was "too honest" that is - I said what I knew the facts to be at the time I said them - not in politic speak but in reality. A few of our vendors actually lied (yes) to us - they wanted the work - they took our PO and some took money and did not produce what they said they would produce when they said we would get it....boo hoo...I guess I can write a tell-all not that it would help but that's why the water is cold. This is not easy......however we will get screwed once and the vendors who do what they should get our business forever.

Pinball has been a dirty work for these vendors for a long time. They moved on to produce parts for every other industry that was not on life support. Some act like they are doing us a favor taking our order. The economy is getting better in some places. How do you deal with a vendor who has a Summer schedule and works 3 days a week on a PO we placed last November? - Critical vendor who you don't want to piss off? - We go around him - we deal with other people.

Listen, everyone knows what we are doing and if they don't just call me - In March July looked like a year ahead. I certainly believed we would be shipping games in July (not - duh) - I look bad...yep....better to say something like "the game will ship when it's ready" - no- maybe so.

I'm not doing anything to delay games shipping but I'm not putting anything anywhere unless it's ready for what we want it to be ready for.

Keith and his wife have a new baby born about ten days ago. Is he still coding - yes - do I have code today to put out the games we have built here today - not yet but very soon in days. Keith's ability, resolve, work ethic and talent are amazing, we know.

There truly is a waiting list for ECLEWOZ - so if you got in early and want to sell your spot, have at it. From where I sit today I don't want to guess again about your game delivery. I said in Seattle that my goal was toe get games out by the holidays - this year and we will do that - hopefully all of them ordered.

The build is the easy part at this point. Having everything here we need is still coming but a lot happens every day, fulltime all the time.

The haters will always be there to say something, even when the games ship, the conversation will shift to this and that hater subject, I'm sorry I have not found a way to make everyone on Planet Earth happy. The people who bought our games, that's who we want to make happy. Bystanders can pile on with their musings and opinions, all welcome and respected.

The game is awesome, others have said that that have seen more than you Gambit, unfortunately for you. I do thank you for your faith and patience in ordering. If you need to get off the road, then I can help you by reselling your game now and giving you a full refund.

My Dad is in ICU so I've been occupied with life, real life, not reading this forum so I apologize for that too.

I'm certain this give a good laugh to some people but I can assure you and anyone else, those buying or playing our games will be the ones laughing last.......Back to work.....

I appreciate the response, Jack. I certainly appreciate your current situation outside of pinball. I explained my position in the e-mail I sent you this morning. I know that you have been occupied, and it obviously isn't and hasn't been a good time to discuss concerns with you directly.

It was not me that brought this thread directly to Jack's attention, nor by random chance either - thanks to those that did, though! You want to tell Gary Stern that I think he made a run of terrible games in the mid-oughts and should be ashamed with his QC, guys? Have at that, too.

You seem like you could potentially be a competent developer so you probably know this already and are trying to defend a stance. I have done driver and graphic development for Linux games. Once the rules are defined the development isn't that difficult or time consuming on a non graphical platform. Sorry it just isn't.

The thread with no (or low) sound was I believe coasterguy.

It is a new sound board arrangement. There is sound, it is just re-distributed and different from earlier Sterns.

I'am sure they (JJP) are getting all the bugs out and taking there time since its the first pin (WOZ) manufactured. Expect some issues with some machines as this is normal with anything built, scratched and dimpled playfields are not acceptable, needing to make adjustments is normal. I can't believe some people recieved there NIB Stern pins to have dings and scratches on there playfields.

1. What a timely response.

2. Really dude? Going to go right ahead and punch Stern in the nuts after everything here?

Well said Jack! And best wishes for your Dad, our prayers are with you....

Jack,

I think the game will be awesome, the build quality looks top notch, I kick myself for not pre ordering. good luck

Sorry to hear about your father, I wish you and your family the best.

Hi Jack. I'll be calling again soon. There are still a few local Pinsiders that would like to come down to the plant.

25i0l0l.gif

Thanks for the great response Jack. I am certain it will be worth the wait while you make sure it is right.

I was simply stating that adjustments are the normal for anything NEW!!! F***ED UP scratched and dinged up playfileds are not regardless of who makes it! If your NEW pin playfield was dinged up and scratched you be ok with it? I was NOT punching Stern in the 'Nads! Get over yourself my friend! A handful of pinsiders have scratched and dinged up PF's on there NIB pins and they aint happy about it and I dont blame them either!

....like talking to a wall around here....

<crickets>

It is easy to look at 2005 with 2012 eyes.

Back then there was a heck of a lot of concern. It was posted on RGP that the money paid up front would be escrowed, it never was. There was to be payments, then people got notices to pay the rest fast.

There were what at least four different groups along the way, Bearcave, and others that came and went. Kerry Stair finished it up.

No factory, no assembly line, no paid trained personnel.

Not to mention they had a BBB disassembled, and I was contacted a lot by each group regularly to find out what went where and all kinds of neat questions. If the people that had money invested knew this they would have been screaming.

It was pretty scary if you had five grand in that mess.

Gene did get them done. And I would call it a miracle.

People might be laughing now, they weren't when the BBB project was going on.

LTG

This has been going on since the Capcom days, at least.

Vendors aren't sure if they'll get paid. So they don't bother, or may do it when ever they feel like it, and sure as heck charge a lot more just in case they do get paid.

This will effect anyone wanting parts forever. Stern, JJP, JPOP, US.
LTG

I am obviously opinionated and a board hot head, and sometimes my bickering with others on the board gets too heated. I used language and got to a point of anger last night, frustrated with other members and talking in circles, that I should be and am embarrassed with. Jack was not here directly to retort at the time, and I continued to pile on needlessly harsh complaints, whose points were made long before. For that alone, I do owe Jack and JJP an apology.

There is a fine line between being purely negative and offering constructive criticism. I stand by my underlying position, and have had direct communication with Jack on this subject. He has responded both here and in private. I will strive to be more constructive in any further discussions on this issue, and be less destructive.

Here here Ted (and Jack). I'm patiently waiting. If and when it happens I'm still in.

Brian

Everyone who has been paying attention to this project also knows that Jack tends to release information that is not current. So whatever was at E3 is not representative of the current state of game development. We've seen this time and time again where JJP releases something that is sometimes weeks or even months old. It's safe to say they're a lot further along.

Obviously you're upset that his game is not in your hands. But I don't see how continuously complaining in public is going to expedite that process? If you can't wait, then ask for a refund -- it seems obvious Jack has no problem giving you your money back.

If you don't want your money back, then what exactly are you trying to accomplish? Are you looking to make such a big stink publicly, that Jack will ship your game out to you faster than other people who have been waiting longer?

The fact is, those who pre-ordered did not get any guaranteed delivery date. It seems most people are patient and willing to wait. Those that aren't are free to slip out and let someone else have their slot. If there's a waiting list, you can surely make some kind of deal to get a little return if you think your money could have been better served elsewhere?

You don't need to hear it from a nobody like me, but - well said. Kudos for being a man about it.

PinballHelp, I forgot that Robin had created and installed the Ignore User feature last week. For my shoddy memory and not pointing this out for our mutual benefit - and only for these injustices - I also offer you my apologies. Look up on this post, to the grayscale small font at the very top, next to QUOTE and !!. Let's click IGNORE together.

In 3....2......1

Sorry, I'm not going to stick my head in the sand. But feel free.