No. People will always have longer money and shorter memories.

LTG : )

Nope. How many people have "paid in full" for a Star Wars LE with their vendor; before even seeing a single video or detailed specs?

That's not the same. Ordering from Stern is ordering a product you know is coming whether your money is in on it or not.

When we talk about "pre order"'in pinball, were talking about startups that don't have a factory, don't have things figured out...they're using your money as crowdfunding. Jpop, SkitB, Dutch, Heighway. They're all toast. This model is done.

I actually don't agree with this. Most Stern titles are initially sold with only a handful of pictures to go by, and many LE runs don't even get that by the time they are all spoken for. At that point no one has any idea what the game feels like, no idea what the software is like, and no idea when the software will be finished. That's a pre-order just like any of the others.

I also notice you didn't include JJP, Spooky, PPS/Chicago Gaming in your list, who also largely sell based on pictures and pre-orders. It'll be harder for new companies to do this at volume, but pre-orders are far from dead.

We have been pre ordering Stern machines for the last 6 years. In Aus it is the only way you will get a LE and in some cases premiums. We pay half when we order and the other half when we get the machine. Never had an issue. Spooky we would, it is too hard to get one in to Aus.

We are extremely cautious with any other manufacturer. Even JJP and Chicago Gaming. The only way for us to buy anything other than Stern is to turn up, play the machine, pay and put it straight on the truck. At the start of this year we tossed up between AFMr, DI & ASLE. We decided on ASLE. Guess what? Machine is at home getting played every day for the last 2 weeks. None of my friends have received their AFMrs or DIs yet. Luckily in Aus we have great Distros that are honest people and good to deal with. I am sure that the AFMr s and DIs will get delivered as soon as they become available. I believe late August early Sept for us in AUS.

Unfortunately in this hobby there are too many people that bend the truth to suit their own self interests.

Think this is the case with the situation at DP? I think their pride is getting in the way of getting TBL out the door.

To me.. a pre order is buying something sight unseen/out of reach, start up or legitimate/established company. From what I've seen in the few years in this hobby.. Money is made/tossed and burned.. as long as interest and hope are there, preorders will be too.

I'd like to say yes, but we all 'must have' that LE pin

You would think so....but how many have quietly put money down on Houdini? I dont want to see anyone fail, but whats the purpose of giving them preorder money??

The OP mentions "crowd funding". That is pretty close to the same as pre-ordering at the end of the day.

I guess with crowd funding there is never any guarantee that you will receive anything because they are classed as "perks" and there is no promise you are to receive anything at all (although many think this is the case).

With a pre-order the company is indeed 'promising' that you will receive something.

I think if an offer is tantalizing enough people will go for it and take a punt.

No, because the market leaders are not fulfilling demand. If Stern (and, to a lesser extent, JJP and Spooky) were consistently producing high-quality machines that people wanted to play and charging affordable prices, there would be no speculative pre-orders. Whether it's prices, the themes being produced, QC issues, code delays, photoshop artwork, boring fan layouts etc; people are not satisfied with what is currently on offer, and that's why they are taking risks looking elsewhere.

You're right. It is the lure of getting that limited edition that compels one to pre-order.

For many it is a kind of investment. But like any investment, there is a risk of losing your money? With pinball pre-orders, sadly we need to go into it with the knowledge that we may lose our pre-order money and end up empty handed. If it is a risk you are willing to take then you will either be jumping for joy when you unbox your machine, or cursing yourself for backing a dud.

With no risk there can be no reward.

Sadly no... although one can argue what "pre-ordering" means.

- If a $250 to $1000 deposit counts as a "pre-order" then I have no doubt the preorder model is still very alive.
- If by preordering you mean giving half or more of the money when "production is scheduled to start" (not when your game is ready) then I think people start to realize this is not an economically sustainable model, even with the best intentions, except may be for confidential runs.

Coming from someone who dodged several bullets* ... but not all of them (Predator...)

*TBL was a very good theme for me, but I decided I would not support a company that had one thing, and one thing only, ready at the onset: the payment plan!

As I recall, this same question was asked a couple of years ago. The fact that it's still being asked answers the question.

I'm done with pre-ordering / crowd funding anything. I didn't get burned on a pinball machine, but took a bath on a $1,500 Skully helmet.

The owners decided to spend all my money on Dodge Vipers, exotic vacations and strip clubs. Then they didn't pay the manufacturer of the components and filed bankruptcy.

I learned my less a lot cheaper than some unfortunate people here.

Probably not, people never learn.

Pinball attracts a unique combination of enthusiasm, disposable income, and blind faith.

So no, even after disaster after disaster, preorder pinball ain't done and won't be anytime soon.

Well it's never been a temptation for me. I like to look a horse in the mouth, so to speak, before purchasing. My collection, and wallet, is small enough I only buy games I *know* I want, have played, etc.

I would like to hope that the pre-order months and years in advance thing is toast. For one thing, all the subsequent drama on pinside associated with pre-ordered games is tiring, to say the least.

based on how others seems to define pre-ordering, there is not a single manufacturer out there which offers a non-preorder model for any of the limited games.

Stern LE >> $100-$1000 deposit required months in advance; sometimes even before title or timing of game
Heighway >> $1000 deposit required for either LE or regular to hold spot
JJP >> $varying deposit to hold spot of next game depending on dsitributor
AP >> $varying deposit to hold spot of next game depending on dsitributor
Spooky >> non refundable deposit $1000? to hold spot

If you want to assure yourself the limited release or low production run games, you have no other choice.

Dead for me, for a few years at the initial stages of SkitB.....

I simply couldnt handle stress.

Seeing others get excited, rally behind, send out money, only to see these same friends angry, angry at Pinball bothers me.

I cant say, "you shouldnt have", and one cant take the high road of, "I told you so".

I have shared with others it must be extra income, willing to be lost, with no remorse....then maybe it will exist for those.....

well said Art!

I agree 100% DONT SEND MONEY YOU CANT LOSE!

I assume anytime I send in a deposit that it may be gone for good. Even with Stern (the industry leader) you just dont know the reality of what will happen with your individual distributor or if there will be a major QC issue that is not addressed.

"There's a sucker born every minute"

As long as preorders are offered, people will do it. Unfortunately some will either not know better (not on Pinside) or just think that the odds of another disaster happening is in their favor. It's the quest to get the rare and valuable (aka greed to resell or to brag). I'm perfectly ok with allowing preorders (I won't do it anymore since the GB long wait) as we are all adults and can do what we want with our money. I think preordering with Stern or JJP is fine...might take longer than expected but you'll get a game. Startups making games like Predator and magic Girl is a complete coin flip.

Funny, A great Book on PT Barnum I read a few years back, just happened to make it on the chair right next to me!

He is a good example, and therefore a phenomenal read, into creating media, that grabs people, sells them something
they have never seen before!

The History of this is amazing, because its Us today!

Pinball, Advertising, Politics.

Give something People dont know they want.....and they line up!

For me, other than owning it to be "first", or simply having Gobs of money, I will simply wait from now on.

Ill be happy for others to get the bugs out, improve the code, debate it to death.

But if it interests me, it will come up used, or HUO, at a discount or not, and if I can afford it then, Ill decide.

Ghostbusters was an exercise in as much time spent inside the game, as a Bally/Williams, or a 10 year old Stern!

In that regard, while I am "done" collecting, due to room, Ill always make room for a quality used game I havent played before.

If I do it right, Ill have the same few hours to shop, LED, or tweak, as I spend on a new game tweaking in different area,
and when Im done playing, my loss, if any, is minimal.

We have a good group here, as others do, and swapping games around, each of us improving and not being Greedy, means a bunch of us benefit.

New is great and exciting, but new to me means I havent had it in my home.......Lots more games at 2K ish, that are making me very happy now!

Anyone who has been burned is done, as that number increases pre-order dies

How is this even a question when SWLE is already supposedly sold out? I swore off any more pre-orders after Hobbit and GBLE. I'm taking a 'wait and see' attitude. Actually kind of interested to see what a Refinery Premium SW might be like down the road if it is a ton of fun. I have 2 locals getting the LE so I'll have my chance to play before I buy.

No, because as long as people are willing to prepay it will continue.

[expletive removed]. I wonder how some of you with all this disposable income had the IQ to attain such play money.
Paging Mr. Dograg...Mr. Dograg, call holding on line 2.

The hobby used to be about folks buying used games from operators (either direct or at a coin op auction). Fixing it up, playing it, maybe selling it to another collector. That made sense imho. Now the hobby is about folks buying every single game made nib and lining them up one beside the other, willing to pay the increasingly insane asking prices that these factories are charging. Sad to say, but when you have that much gullibility and money being displayed this community will continue to be ripe for being ripped off. It is too much of a temptation when these startups keep failing but folks are still mailing checks to the next one...

That is what I always wondered. A fool and his money are soon parted. How the hell did they get together to begin with ?

LTG : )

There it is! I was reading the thread before I said this exact same thing. I'm sure we could dig back through the topics and find this exact same question more than once. Pre-order is here to stay as long as there are enough suckers to pay for it. Pinball people are hypocrites.

I can't fathom how the model of sending a start-up company thousands of dollars with the promise of a game some day ever existed. I am fairly new to this hobby, have a good amount of disposable income and have even overpaid for a few games before I knew what I was doing but I would never send a company $4500/$6000/$8500 etc, non-refundable, with the hope that they would make me a game in the future. I believe this is what the OP means; not sending Stern or JJP less than $1000, refundable, to hold your spot for an LE model of a game. That model will continue but I would hope the former does not. But there are a lot of morons out there.

Yeah...he doesn't answer his pages if you have less than 10 pins.......

I think the challenge is....with more new comers in the hobby....they may not know all the history of the pre-order fiasco. I met an operator last month, who had 6 machines on route (including AS NIB)...and had never heard of Pinside before. I was actually shocked....

We'll said Max and Viper.

John

That's not surprising to me really. He's a operator who's in it for the money not the collecting aspect. He doesn't want to spend his off hours reading about more pinball whatever and could probably care less about what the latest mod is....

John

all his machines had issues...except for the Aerosmith....I was thinking he may have stumbled on the site...looking for technical support....not the hobby of it

Seems not

Do you have to blaspheme Christ all the time? You need to shut that down.

You need to suck my fucking Jesus sack fuckface. Don't ever tell me what to do you fucking jizzmopper.

Stop it children! I'm gonna wash your mouths out with soap.

I thought that was your pet name for me...

And this couldn't have been a PM......why...exactly? You want to tell people how to talk...go run your church group.

POTW

16 out of 3660 is hardly "all the time."

Back on topic, before giving out your hard-earned money, look very carefully at the company head's head, that is, the length of their hair and/or any hats.

Even if they pass this test, you are in for a long wait if they are not a proven manufacturer, and sometimes even then.

Andrew just popped the trunk on what was left of Mr. Preordering, pulled out that big ol' kitchen knife and went to town...Pesci style

preorderisdead (resized).jpg

I would actually class the two models of crowdfunding and preordering as falling under the same umbrella.

Both offer a promissory obligation to produce with added incentives to the potential end product for those who invest higher amounts but neither actually guarantee that the end product will be received in the original production estimated schedule or in a timely manner as per the original terms and conditions expressly stated.

Using the term preorder rather than crowdfunding simply attempts to legitimise the perception a startup operation wants to try and convey to potential investor consumers such as assessing market demand rather than raising a quick source of petty cash flow.

And no, unfortunately this won't be the end of the preorder model as long as consumers continue to buy into the hype surrounding new startups without doing due diligence prior to sending funds.

Because Stern was producing games like Wheel Of Fortune. If you wanted to buy a new pinball machine, your options were to send money to Stern for a game that may never be finished or send money to a start-up for a game that may never be finished. Option B had the additional incentive that it might actually produce some much-needed competition in the industry, and to some extent (JJP, Spooky) that has proven to be the case.

Wheel of Fortune was 2007. JJP started up with WOZ due to the "cheap era" Sterns of 2010....then the boutiques started when they saw "rare" games like BBB, Tron LE, and AC/DC LE getting $10k+ from collectors.

Back in 2007 people probably had a reasonable expectation that the game would actually be completed. It would have taken a year or two to realise the game had been abandoned.