"There are more fools with money than those with common sense, especially when it comes to pinball."

- TBK

I think you know my answer.
Watched the situation for years.
The only reason some people stop is after they get burned, and some still make the same mistakes again.
The rest are replaced with new buyers, and the process starts over.

I think the pay several thousand (>2K) days are over. To be honest how they started is the bigger question.

I don't mind putting 1K down on a machine from stern or CGC or any company that has a track record. but if you go put money in with a small guy be prepared to lose it. After seeing HP at expo last year with the state Alien was in back then I seriously doubted they would make it so I was going to wait until I could drive down to the factory and pay cash and pick up one new.

People in this hobby seem to have short memories. Excitement about a loved theme and sometimes greed help cause people to forget all of the failures. With every new venture there are many that say it won't happen with this project. They say the guy that is running the project is respected or the theme is just too good to fail. Etc.

Not a collector myself (witness my expansive machine collection of...one ), I have never understood how this preorder craze even began. In most other businesses, putting 50-100% of the price down before a product is even proven/produced is pretty much unheard of. Even if you put your name down for an exotic sports car, you are (AFAIK) never asked for the full sum up front to finance development of the model.

It appears small pinball startups have taken the crowdfunding idea from Kickstarter and applied it to our hobby. Which is hardly ethical in my humble opinion. It should be made totally clear to the prospective customer that they are becoming investors. The risks should be stated clearly (which is a requirement in most other crowdfunding situations, Kickstarter forces clauses on the risks for example).

At least then customers would be able to accurately asses the risk and decide whether they are willing to risk 5-10k for the chance of possibly receiving a machine as ordered.

I will personally never pre-order anything of substantial value. If a company wants me to finance the development of a product, I expect equity stake, and so should *all* financiers of pinball startups.

If not, the endless row of fiascos will only continue.

(Sorry for the negative vibe. I'm just so disappointed in DP mishandling one of my favourite movies and a machine I was looking forward to playing...)

I think the yes votes confused is with should be. People be duuuumb... The preorders will continue.

I paid in full up front for BBB in 2004 and then waited almost three years before picking up the game. I didn't fully realize the risk at the time. After seeing all that has happened with pinball startups since then would I do that again? Uh, no.

Simple. It began with Big Bang Bar. An unlikely dreamer built ~200 units for $4500, which once delivered years later sold in the aftermarket for $20-$30,000. Then Tron LE went from a $5000 game to a $10,000 game, then AC/DC BIBLE shot up in value as well. Collectors wanted to get in on "the next big thing" and boutiques were happy to take their money for the promise of a rare game that would be worth more than the initial investment.

While you included Houdini in your list, there is just one model, and there is no initial limit on how many will be made. There are distributors who will put your name on the list without a deposit. And as a reminder, none of that deposit money comes to us. Accordingly, you can wait and get it when it is available. AP is not 'crowd sourcing' this game, likes others have.

Obviously distributors are going to give priority to those on the list and/or who gave deposits. Obviously there are factor relative to 'orders' that impact when and how many a distributor gets as the games start rolling off the lines, so that is why they want to get some money to help validate someone's interest is real. So, for those who know this is a game they want, then putting a little bit down with a distributor makes sense.

I would never pay more than a small deposit ever again for a spot on a machine.

Thanks for the explanation! Sounds logical although I suspect not everyone who got in on the preorders qualify as a speculator...

Still a shame that many boutique operations seem to fail. Building a one off pinball machine has likely never been easier, but scaling it to mass production is probably still deceptively hard. My (uninformed) guess would be that that's where things start to go wrong...

Not everyone is a speculator - but the few examples of rare games rising in value enormously made the proposition seem like a win-win situation for everyone....until the house of cards started to fall.

No. Wrong.

Post of the Week? Have you lost it?

dude, who says the mods don't have a sense of humor, i love how they modded that post and left the colorful words hehehe...

No i haven't, that was hilarious.

The only time I remember "pre ordering" is when SMVE was announced. It was a game and VE I was looking for so I sent in my deposit.

I was blessed with minor ghosting. If they do another VE of lets say Tron I would probably do the same. Otherwise in the past I bought when game would be shipped after payment.

you make my exact point...

There is nobody and no manufacturer where you can get a limited game (houdini will be until you get a whole bunch made; even if it is an unlimited single model) without some sort of deposit. As you said, even YOUR distributors are requiring a deposit to hold a spot in line. If I want to hold a Houdini spot to get a game early off the line, I would have to pay a deposit/pre-order.

I understand and admire that none of that money goes to you, but people are still taking the same inherent risk for any and all games where they put a deposit down. Heck, there are numerous examples of distributors closing up and evaporating with pinball money.

We're not agreeing on what "pre-order" means in the context of pinball. When Stern announced SMVE, you ordered it. They had developed it already, they're gonna build it in their factory, it's a done deal, you don't have to worry about not getting it (or a refund if you change your mind). That's an order. IMO, "pre-order" is for pretty much anyone outside of Stern & JJP....maybe Spooky. It implies that you're funding an unknown player...someone who doesn't have the capital to run the company without your pre-order money. Jpop, Skit-B, Dutch, Heighway. That model is DEAD. People will continue to ORDER Stern or JJP games because there's nothing to worry about....yes, its in advance...but there's no risk involved. Maybe that's the clarifier? Non-risk pre-order vs. high-risk pre-order? LOL I dunno....

Bookmark this one baby! There's always more in the future...just when you think no one else could fall for it they will.

You see some new boutique coming out of nowhere, trying this and succeeding? Or people throwing money at Heighway or Dutch on an announcement even though the game wouldn't likely ship for a year or two? As long as people are still trying to get their money back from Jpop, Predator, Heighway and Dutch...none of those people will ever do it again - and those stories will still be circulating for newbs to chew on.

No, there are still some people who have money willingly lost in alien. A sucker and his money are easily sepperated.

Man I could see new a boutique for sure...not saying it's a given but it wouldn't shock me at all. You'd need another heavy hitter like Jpop to back it for it to seem legit enough to make it pass. After each one I don't think everyone learns the lesson.
Heck the next one is super duper LE only 50 made!

Oh and second part people are going to be throwing monies at Alien for sure....that's already a given.

Is Pre-order done?

No

Should it be?

Yes

Will things change?

Not until people start buying games only after they are built and complete.

All I know is I'm out forever on pre-orders, and I feel no empathy for those getting hosed. People are so worried they are going to miss out on the next "Tron LE" that they are risking huge amounts of money for a chance to have a coveted machine.

LMAO...okay, whatever you say, Donald.

I see no problem with pre-ordering if you are a buyer. That reserves a spot for the buyer of a particular item and if the buyer changes his mind before that particular item is to be delivered only the seller is out a sale.

However pre-paying for anything that doesn't exist yet is a fools game that I will never play and I can't understand why others do.

It's never going to die because nobody ever learns. Delays for 3 years, companies going under, code never finishing, quality issues, prices rising 50%, etc, nothing seems to change anything. Everyone appears to have like 20 dream themes and as long as they keep making those people will just keep handing over their money.

I've just shifted over to video games more again, so much more bang for your buck currently.

A lot of the fraudulent Jizzmoppers are gone now

Will a new crop emerge?

I just found a dedicated Mr Do! Last month, and I haven't been that happy to pick up a game since Metallica.

That being, said, I am trying really hard to figure out a way to pay for a AFMrLE. It sounds like they have the production figured out, and a $1000 deposit (refundable until asked to pay in full 30 days from delivery) seems reasonable.

Actually I was referring to xbox/ps4/pc gaming, not arcade games, lol. They're only $20 to $60 and offer more hours of playing time than most pinball machines.

Arcade games almost feel that cheap after pinball. Lol

My actual playtime is mostly consoles now as well. Between the Switch, and PlayStation VR, there is a lot of fun to be had. And, you are right, it is relatively cheap. It actually makes zero sense for me to want this AFMr. I have Metallica and GnR now, as well as a dozen arcade games, and I have literally spent more time playing on the switch in 3 months, than I have all of those others combined in the last 3 years. I still want it though. Lol

Remember this meme in the history books for the next round when it happens.
People are already forgetting again, or are not aware of the past.

Who is a bigger fool?
The individual who dreams they can build a pinball machine with no technical experience, manufacturing background, industry contacts, or proper investors combined OR the fool that stands waiting forever on the sidelines after giving them money expecting all this to occur?

Unfortunately for those that have knowledge of the the industry it is about to happen again, and skies will open as people angrily state "they did not know", "they did not understand" or "they trusted them". If people were actually smarter, places like loan sharks, cash advance businesses, and pawn shops would not exist.

Denial is a terrible thing.

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No , plenty of people that feel the urge to be the first one to have a new announced title.

Especially with established manufacturers.

With non established ones it's a crap shoot but theme lures
Them in.

It's Idiocracy all over again
( go watch the movie , it explains and what we have too look forward too)

If only Herbert Camacho mountendew was in charge it would be all better

If you look back and see how many people loose their money with this ass clowns companies,you never do it.If companies wants our money,first finish the product and then sell it.If your company don't have the funds to do the product without the pre orders money,I'm sorry for you,don't play in a big leagues game if you don't have the money to back up

But no one does look at that. Instead they look at the people who preordered WOZ and got a machine. It's the same bias that keeps people going back to casinos.

Pre-order is also the trend for parts (Backglass, stadium lights, playfields, etc). Three threads here at Pinside should convince anyone with sense to avoid this practice.
Its like Chevy Chase at the Blackjack table, the Dealer tells him just give me your money and I will kick your ass, it will be a whole lot less trouble (or something to that effect).
Would you send payment in full for an EM or SS with the understanding you could pick it up 18 Months - 2 years from now?

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