Queen of Diamonds
Gottlieb, 1959Hi all. I’ve been restoring a 1959 Gottlieb Queen of Diamonds that I got working before I tore down the playfield for clear coating. The 100k relay is staying on and trying to burn up the bell and advance coils. I’ve checked the card switches and the roll overs - none appear to be stuck in. The schematic indicates a switch on the M relay may be involved but I can’t find that relay in the box. Any suggestions?
Isn't the M relay the 100k relay? Does it come on spontaneously or does it stay on once you score 100k?
If it stays on once you score 100k (and fire the 100k relay) it should let go when the End of Stroke switch on the 100k Step Unit is opened by the advance arm. It's a feedback mechanism to make sure the relay sends power long enough for the stepper to complete its stroke.
/Mark
Quoted from MarkG:Isn't the M relay the 100k relay? Does it come on spontaneously or does it stay on once you score 100k?
It stays on during start up - the score motor seems to finish start up, but the 100k rely is stuck on.
Quoted from MarkG:If it stays on once you score 100k (and fire the 100k relay) it should let go when the End of Stroke switch on the 100k Step Unit is opened by the advance arm. It's a feedback mechanism to make sure the relay sends power long enough for the stepper to complete its stroke.
/Mark
So maybe the EOS switch is not adjusted correctly on the back of the stepper unit? I can check that. Makes sense.
Quoted from HowardR:What does the schematic say the M relay does?
As far as I can tell on the schematic the 100k relay has one switch in series with it - the M switch. The M relay appears to have two switches in series on the relay - M switch and a normally closed "On Add 100k" switch.
Quoted from HowardR:What does the schematic say the M relay does?
Quoted from Tonup69:As far as I can tell on the schematic the 100k relay has one switch in series with it - the M switch. The M relay appears to have two switches in series on the relay - M switch and a normally closed "On Add 100k" switch.
There should be a legend box near the bottom left of the schematic that tells what each relay is for
Quoted from HowardR:There should be a legend box near the bottom left of the schematic that tells what each relay is for
Guess what? It says: Use - 100,000 Relay
Not very helpful. I think maybe this is one of those small relays in the back box or under the playfield that only has two switches on it - sorry, don't know the term for this style. Not long copper arms for the switches.
Quoted from Tonup69:So maybe the EOS switch is not adjusted correctly on the back of the stepper unit? I can check that. Makes sense.
Chances are this is the culprit.
Quoted from Tonup69:It says: Use - 100,000 Relay
Not very helpful. I think maybe this is one of those small relays in the back box or under the playfield that only has two switches on it
The M relay is the 100k relay. It's mounted in the backbox next to the N/10k relay. The M/100k relay is what sends power to the 100k stepper advance solenoid. If it's stuck on block each of the switches on the schematic closest to the M relay coil with a piece of paper to figure out which one is stuck closed.
Quoted from tfduda:Chances are this is the culprit.
Turns out the EOS switch is the M switch - it is labeled: Inside SW ADD REPLAY & BELL, SECOND SW - "M" RELAY LOCK IN
I cleaned it and adjusted it - it really didn't need a adjustment, but it needed cleaning. Appears to be doing what it should and no obvious shorts (bent tangs, solder bombs, etc.).
Did not fix the problem.
Quoted from MarkG:The M relay is the 100k relay. It's mounted in the backbox next to the N/10k relay. The M/100k relay is what sends power to the 100k stepper advance solenoid. If it's stuck on block each of the switches on the schematic closest to the M relay coil with a piece of paper to figure out which one is stuck closed.
Tried the paper trick on the M relay and now the advance coil on the 100k unit is not sticking on, but there is still a buzz someplace and I continue to blow the 10amp fuse that lights the playfield. I think I forgot to mention that the lights will come on, but if I touch anything on the playfiled (in addition to the sound of constant relay being held on) the 10 amp fuse will blow and the lights go out on the playfield.
I guess next I will got down the schematic from the M relay and test switches upstream. Here is the relevant part of the schematic. I highlighted some switches to test.
Hope this helps.
M relay (resized).pngThe "ON ADD 100,000" switch is usually on the stepper. It is usually a NC switch that opens when the drive arm (long one on bottom) pivots to cause the stepper to step. I don't have a picture handy now, but you can see a photo of what I mean at the following site:
Quoted from tfduda:The "ON ADD 100,000" switch is usually on the stepper. It is usually a NC switch that opens when the drive arm (long one on bottom) pivots to cause the stepper to step. I don't have a picture handy now, but you can see a photo of what I mean at the following site:
https://images.pinside.com/e/4a/e4ab974884932a64ef46b834695492fc8d89672d/resized/large/e4ab974884932a64ef46b834695492fc8d89672d.jpg
Yeah, we are in the right neighborhood - I've looked at both sets of switches on that image. What makes me think it isn't the ON ADD 100k is that I can manually advance the unit - opening the switch - and I still have a problem - i.e. the 100k relay stuck on. The other switch makes more sense, but I can't find anything wrong with it.
Quoted from Tonup69:I can manually advance the unit - opening the switch - and I still have a problem - i.e. the 100k relay stuck on.
So then it sounds like you’re on the right track in terms of tracing problems with switches that actuate the m relay. From the schematic it seem like either the left or right kicking rubber switch is making contact, although there might be other switches that aren’t shown in your schematic image that also activate the m relay.
Good luck!
Quoted from tfduda:The "ON ADD 100,000" switch is usually on the stepper. It is usually a NC switch that opens when the drive arm (long one on bottom) pivots to cause the stepper to step. I don't have a picture handy now, but you can see a photo of what I mean at the following site:
https://images.pinside.com/e/4a/e4ab974884932a64ef46b834695492fc8d89672d/resized/large/e4ab974884932a64ef46b834695492fc8d89672d.jpg
The switch on the bottom right of this photo - closed initially than normally open - was adjusted too close. It was not opening enough and was shorting. Thanks for the help!
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