Quoted from LTG:I hope you don't mean me.
I do the best for my customers I can. But there isn't money left over to buy new pins.
Nope. Didn't mean you Lloyd. I've never been to SS Billiards, but I get the impression that you give your customers the best possible product you can, unlike the original poster. That's all a location player can ask for. New or old, just give me the best you got.
Quoted from LTG:When he was done operating TAF's, the ones with validators did 50% more over their life span.
Well worth the price of a validator.
LTG : )
Yes, but I am sure that he kept the ones with validators in his best earning spots.
Bill acceptors DO increase earnings, but not by 50%
Plus they are finally cheap.
Quoted from LTG:It will be slow and no over night successes. But lots of hard work and dedication.
I help maintain location pins for a small amusement company with about a dozen locations. We have definitely been seeing the effects of the resurgence. Just 2 years ago pinball was a burden for us, now it's a neccessity. Locations want them, people want to buy them from us, and home owners want us to fix their games. It's all we can do to keep games looking and playing well. Our best location is a small bar with many competitive pinball enthusiasts. Pinball is consistently the best earning game. On a good week the tournament game alone earns $100. We need more enthusiasm like this.
Quoted from DNO:Yes, but I am sure that he kept the ones with validators in his best earning spots.
It was a large operator. And TAF's only went into his best locations.
I put one on a TAF before anyone else, and didn't take long to get them on every pin I could.
LTG : )
Quoted from phishrace:Nope. Didn't mean you Lloyd. I've never been to SS Billiards, but I get the impression that you give your customers the best possible product you can, unlike the original poster. That's all a location player can ask for. New or old, just give me the best you got.
Thank you !
LTG : )
Bill acceptors also boost earnings for us. Why is that, just faster to insert a bill and get 3 games rather than having to use a changer? Our bar players rarely use quarters.
Quoted from Crash:Bill acceptors also boost earnings for us. Why is that, just faster to insert a bill and get 3 games rather than having to use a changer? Our bar players rarely use quarters.
When I started it was because I golfed with the head of Viking distributing.
Talking during these outings I discovered a difference between vending and vids and pins.
You walk up to a row of vending equipment, you have pop, candy, sandwiches, snacks. A microwave and change machine. Anything you stick in a vending machine, you are likely able to buy something.
Now at that time with vids and pins. It was a chore to get money into them.
People want to stick money into something. In coin op you need to make it as easy as possible.
Validators for me helped with that. Even though I'm nearby. People don't always want to look for or even get change. They want to get money in fast and start having fun.
LTG : )
I would really like to know different operators experiences with what games pull in the most. I would not doubt the earlier comment about Comet outperforming newer games.
My home collection is not great by any stretch, but when I have people over especially new (never played in their life) players in their early/mid 20's they always like to play Bally Eight Ball the most. They will play the other newer DMD pins and late 80's pins. But given the choice (everything is on free play) there is an overwhelming preference for the Eight Ball, my oldest pin.
I need to add some EM's to my line up just to see if they would prefer that.
I don't know if it is a learning curve where you start to want more gadgets in game as you play more. Perhaps the older game is more self-explanatory and they don't feel "dumb" playing it. Maybe being embarrassed that they would do something stupid on one of the newer games. Like the equivalent of holding a cue stick backwards because you don't know any better and that big end looks easier to hit with.
Addams Family hands-down pulls in about $20-$30 a week for us. It is still our best earner going 20 years strong. We only send it to the best earning locations. We have a couple of A-list Williams titles (White Water, Dracula) but Drac is currently not on location. WH20 seems to hold its own.
It sucks to hear this because I was a kid in the eighties playing in downtown State College. Hope things turn around.
Quoted from mg81:I would love to see pins coming back out on location around me but my highly anecdotal evidence is that they would fail around me.
I am in a huge college town, ~44,000 college kids, that doubles the towns population when classes are in session. We are in a tiny two street town ~6 blocks long, not a lot of places to go. The student density is very high.
The student union had a decent size arcade 15 years ago and downtown had two good size ones as well, all gone.
No pins anywhere in town until a local pizza place right in the middle of the main drag that gets a bunch of daytime traffic going by and late night drunks going home had 4 pins installed (SM, IM, TSPP, LOTR) very prominently in front.
I would go in randomly during the daytime when I was in town to play a few games and also would go in at ~2am when the bars closed up. The place would often be packed with lines out the door. I never once saw the pins get played, not once. I have gone up to them and credits were on the games and place would be packed and no one would even play the pins for free.
But the place also did not seem to be helping itself, no bill acceptor on the pins, no change machine and people at the register would look at me like I was crazy to ask for $4 in quarters ($2 got you 3 games or $.75 per game) The general answer I would get is "I don't have $4 in quarters and the ones I do have I need for change."
But maybe the price scared them off as well. Pizza was a $1 per slice, so the choice may have been obvious for some broke students.
The pins were always in first rate shape, everything worked well on them. But they never got played, only used as tables when the place got packed.
The only games I see played in the town are Megatouch on bar counters, very sad.
Quoted from dmacy:It sucks to hear this because I was a kid in the eighties playing in downtown State College. Hope things turn around.
I still remember taking the whole day off and spending at Playland when Playland was auctioning off all of the games. At the time I was broke with not place to put them or I probably would have started collecting much earlier in life.
It was a sad day knowing that would be my last time playing there.
Sorry to any real operators who were there buying games that day. I was one of the annoying "kids" who was playing all of the games (the whole arcade was set on free play for the day of the auction) so you could not get on them to test them.
I did my best to get out of your way when you came around to whatever game I was on. But I am sure I was just a pain in the ass and you wished the auctioneer made people pay a small admission to come in to keep people like me out.
Quoted from phishrace:Honestly, you sound like a lot of the old bitter operators around here.
Go back and read what this thread is about.
I don't want to operate a route. I did that for 30 years.
I'll never be bitter about being an operator. Being one earned me a generous amount of CASH for many years.
My retirement is fully funded even if I live to be 120 thanks to coin op.
Quoted from phishrace:Instead of trying to put out the best possible product for your customer (god forbid buying something new), you put out beat up old stuff with LED's.
Again, read what I already wrote.
None of the games are beat up.
Cabs are touched up, none of the playfields are worn (many are cleared), everything works, LEDs are tastefully done and add lots of bling appeal.
Quoted from phishrace:As a regular location player, I don't want to play your pity games.
Once again, please READ what I wrote, before you post. It really does makes you look silly.
I don't want you, or anyone from Pinside playing these games. ( Although a few Pinsiders have privately told me that they have found some of them).
James and I only wanted to see if kids would play pinball again. Crane games went out, pinball went in.
Simply an experiment.
Quoted from phishrace:You want to do an experiment? Take some of that $18k you made from MM and put an AC/DC pro next to that Comet with default setting and 6 1/2 degrees pitch. Let us know how that works out. My money is on the AC/DC.
Too long of a payback.
I would be an idiot to think that buying a new game and then waiting 4-5 years for the break even point would be a good use of my cash.
The games I have out right now all paid for themselves in 3-4 months back in the day.
That's why I say pinball is not coming back.
A crane or razor cut game pays for itself in a few months. A razor cut game in a good location takes in more than $3500 a month.
If I were going to buy anything new to put on a route, it would be a BarBerCut game.
(Besides, AC/DC is an old man's band. Sure kids know who they are, but they are not going to go crazy about their parent's music, anymore than you are going to go crazy about Chuck Berry. Like I posted before, all the games are in bars that cater to 18-30 year olds. Not 50-60 year olds)
My location experiment, and I'm not fooling myself, because that's what it is, is a lot of fun for me. I get may hands dirty once and awhile, know all the staff in the pub (and get staff prices), started up a league, and it has paid off one pin per year so far.
Sure, I can't quit my day job, but it sure beats having them all in my basement.
The coolest thing, all the bartenders, guys in their 20's, are now hooked on pin. They bring their buddies in, and get them hooked on pin.
Without pins on location, there can be no resurgence since no new people will play them.
Quoted from trimoto:i had talked to a older operater he said crane games were the way to go . I thought no way, guess he was right .
Yes, he was right.
You might think that crane games are a game of skill, but they are actually set to the percentage of wins you want to provide.
Like a slot machine, you have to allow enough wins to keep people coming back and to let others see someone wining.
The owners of my location have a claw machine. I don't know for certain, but based on what they tell me I'm pretty sure it singlehandedly brings in the same amount as six pins. It is sad, but as others are saying if you want to make money you have to have crane and claw machines. If I was putting games in another location, I'd buy a claw machine to go along with the pins, no question about it.
You can't make any money with crane games in Washington state. The Gambling Commission controls/regulates/licenses them. They've made it so restrictive to operate crane games you can't make anything. The Commission considers crane games to be gambling devices.
Quoted from sangel1969:% of wins in the claw game is based on what -- the grip strength and vibration/jerkiness?
You just set it to what percentage you want to win. You might set it to 12% payout.
The claw will grip tight, then lose the item just before the chute for maximum excitement.
There are places in Canada where they are illegal, because they found out that they are a game of chance, not skill.
How are the claw/razor machines differentiated from a slot machine in the US? Both are in theory offering a payout larger than your deposited money (it is not a vending machine)
Sure some skill is involved (aiming the claw correctly) but that level of skill seems not that high compared to % payout setting in importance. Perhaps little different than pushing the button correctly on a slot machine (those are not hooked up to anything anymore are they? My knowledge of slot machines involves very old 100% mechanical slots where the buttons/handles are actually hooked up to something)
That is incredible that those crane and razor games earn so much. I used to enjoy the crane games when I was really young, but they were only a quarter and you knew you were getting a junk stuffed animal, my dog used to enjoy tearing them to shreds so I got my quarters worth of fun. But the razor games are about the most boring thing I have ever witnessed. The only fun is watching highly animated people play. I know I would get more enjoyment out of just handing $1 to people randomly just for a reaction.
Quoted from mg81:How are the claw/razor machines differentiated from a slot machine in the US?
Some States like NJ regulate them that they must at least pay out a certain percentage.
Most States still think that there is skill in a Skill Crane. Little do they know that they are gambling devices...
Quoted from mg81:But the razor games are about the most boring thing I have ever witnessed.
The razor cut games make crazy money because you think you are going to win a $500 iPhone.
People see a few empty strings and think "Wow, someone won recently, or the operator would have refilled and replaced the string!".
Ops will also shred the string a little bit, so it looks like it's hanging by a thread.
You would think with the availability of info on the web people would wise up. But I guess it is no different than a slot machine or a lottery ticket. Someones number comes up every so often.
"It will happen the next time for sure!"
Nutty50/mg81, you both bring back so many fond memories -- PSU class of '99 here. My love for pinball exploded because of the games ALL over campus. Playland, the other arcade, the HUB, and even East Halls commons. I own a No Fear all because I played the thing every night my freshman year in East Halls. Heck, even the Magic/Comic Shop next to PSU Sub Shop on Beaver had a TAF and WCS. The mid-late 90s were a great time to be a pinhead in State College, that's for sure.
I go by what a game makes a month.
Maintenance should not be high if the game is working 100% going into it.
Springs, coil sleeves and wax aren't pricey.
Initially for each game, I re-invest the money to make the games look/play better
and then the profit goes into doing that for other games, until the profit goes for more games.
I am getting really off topic from where this thread started but, there is something that hits me as being very disingenuous about the way the razor cut games run. There is something very non-obvious going on in the background that the general playing public does not know and that bothers me. If people are "pulling the handle on a slot machine" than let them know it.
To say it is skill to get the string lined up with the cutter is a stretch. It can take more skill to get the machine to take your crappy creased up dollar.
I would rather see the game have the same marginal cut strength for all of the attempts and make it much harder to get it to line up, you know some "skill". You would still have to hit the string a bunch of times to get it through, but at least nothing is going on hidden in the programing.
I have said my two cents. Hopefully this this tread can get back on topic. I would still really like to know what pins appeal most to the young, never played pins before 18-30 year old public.
Yes, State College, pa was a great town to play in. The mall had an arcade, the other downtown arcade was Campus Casino. I preferred the Student Union arcade, non-smoking. The downtown ones were as bad as a bar for smoke. Lots of random pins around campus and in stores.
Quoted from vid1900:There are places in Canada where they are illegal, because they found out that they are a game of chance, not skill.
The only claw machines I ever see in Canada are the "winner every time" kind. Where you first attempt to get a large plush, and when you fail, you play for one of the bitty ones. I'm going to guess this skirts the law, because "everyone is a winner" but no one wins what they are going for - a large plush.
Still crooked.
There are a lot of self-contained redemption (prize) games, as well as ticket games, that are not legal here in Washington state, because the laws require all the games to be actually skill based. No auto-percentaging or anything like that allowed. Because of that, you don't see Barber Cuts (the string cutting game) or things that here.
As Ken mentioned, the overzealous gambling commission, has to study, test, and approve every game, in order to be WA legal. They also will check your meter logs to make sure you are paying out appropriately. Add in the excessive license fees and license requirements, makes it a difficult operating environment.
Post edited by pepind : grammar correction
pepind, I had promised myself that I would not say anything else about this since I felt it was getting well off of the original topic, which I am very interested in hearing the results of, including which games do best.
But here goes, I don't like much government regulation. I am sad to hear they taxing/licensing business to death for something that I do consider very valuable, entertainment. But WA making games of skill actually be games of skill does not bother me, in fact I like the idea. I know pin is dead for most operators and I don't think operators should go broke trying to keep purely entertainment type games out on route if they don't earn a reasonable return. But putting out redemption games that pay out on a programmed % in respectable places where you don't expect to be conned like a chain movie theater bothers me. The popcorn maybe a rip-off but at least I know it.
Lets call some of these games what they are, a slot machine. As I previously mentioned, I think more skill to get it to a crumpled up dollar than get it to line up with the string sometimes.
Parents were angry way back when seeing their kids piss away their lunch money/allowance playing pinball but at least every knew that all you were going to get was some entertainment.
Quoted from mg81:Lets call some of these games what they are, a slot machine.
YOU..........DON'T.............MEAN.............kiddie gambling, do you ?
But you have to get them ready for the casinos somewhere.
LTG : )
If we did not think we looked so cool with our candy cigarettes when we were young I don't think anyone would have bought them. They were just about the worst "candy" the store had for sale. Like putting a piece of sweet chalk in your mouth.
Quoted from vid1900:matching serial number boards
I guess pin collecting is going the way of classic car restoration? I can't wait for Mecum auctions to start airing pin sales on TV.
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