(Topic ID: 156856)

Purchased non-ghosting LED kit, still have ghosting problem


By Jakers

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 39 posts
  • 21 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by herg
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

So I upgraded my TSPP to full LEDs using CoinTakers:

SIMPSONS PINBALL PARTY-1 LED Kit w Premium Non-Ghosting LEDs

The game looks amazing after the install but I noticed that there are many lights that are ghosting. I have version 5.0 CPU and Display roms. Is this normal? I guess I just figured that if I bought the non ghosting kit for my TSPP that I wouldn't have this problem.

In the attached video it shows the "shoot again" and the "spay anything" being dimly lit. Am I correct in thinking that these lights should not be lit up at all? It's not just these two lights either. There are multiple lights that light up dimly throughout the playfield.

http://vid1114.photobucket.com/albums/k534/jakescott81/TSPP%20Ghosting.mp4

#2 3 years ago

Ghosting blubs cannot fix switch insert coding - oversights.
I don't think I have seen a ghost patch for Data East machines. Maybe someone here has more info.

AFAIK; your only option in lue of no code patches is to use LED OCD to get rid of the ghosting.
http://ledocd.com/faq_led.html

#3 3 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

I don't think I have seen a ghost patch for Data East machines.

I think OP has Stern TSPP, not DE Simpsons.
Your other comments may still apply.

#4 3 years ago

its stern, not data east.

Quoted from Zitt:

Ghosting blubs cannot fix switch insert coding - oversights.
I don't think I have seen a ghost patch for Data East machines. Maybe someone here has more info.
AFAIK; your only option in lue of no code patches is to use LED OCD to get rid of the ghosting.
http://ledocd.com/faq_led.html

#5 3 years ago

To me, that looks more like a problem with your lamp matrix; a reversed diode, a short, etc.

#6 3 years ago

Yeah, if it's that bright, check for a defective/non connected/reverse/totally absent diode along that particular row/column. Had something similar, albeit much worse on one of my pins before. A whole column and one row was always on when just one lamp lit up. Someone 'replaced' a lamp holder, but there was no third prong for properly connecting a diode, so he probably figured that it wouldn't hurt running it without one. Became really obvious when I filled the complete matrix out with LEDs.

#7 3 years ago

Agreed. Lamp matrix issue not led ghosting issue.

#8 3 years ago

I have full non ghosting bulbs from ct in my tspp, zero ghosting issues.

-1
#9 3 years ago

Ah... good to know.
I'd advise based upon the recent comments; that you attempt to determine a pattern to the ghosting... IE is it specific inserts?
If so; by looking at the matrix - you might be able to determine a row or a column which has all the ghosts in them. If so; it's probably one of those diodes.

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from herg:

To me, that looks more like a problem with your lamp matrix; a reversed diode, a short, etc.

what about if the ghosting insert led is in a PCB

#11 3 years ago

Two comments

Did you have issues before you put in the leds? If so then probably not led fault. If not then what happens in the inserts that are acting funny if you put a incandescent bulb back in there?

TSPP is a machine that will greatly benefit from a LEDOCD board. When i did my TSPP, NON-ghosting or not the code for TSPP made the leds flicker. Esp in attract mode where the inserts are ramped up and down in brightness. After getting LEDOCD I was able to buy cheaper CT super leds and it looks great.

Good luck

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from skywalker:

what about if the ghosting insert led is in a PCB

The led that is ghosting is likely not the cause of the problem.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from Rickwh:

TSPP is a machine that will greatly benefit from a LEDOCD board.

Just don't expect it to fix a hardware problem with the lamp matrix in your machine.

#14 3 years ago

There were no ghosting issues that I remember when I first brought the game home. I purchased it from a collector that meticulously takes care of his pins. The game only had 230 plays on it when I purchased it from him so I have a hard time believing that it's a hardware issue...but I am new to the world of pinball ownership so I could be completely wrong in thinking this. When I get home I'll replace one of the ghosting LEDs with an incandescent bulb and see what happens.

The only reason I upgraded to full LEDS in the first place was because 2 of the original bulbs went out within a few days of owning it. So instead of having to deal with all the 12-13 year old bulbs slowly burning out, I just replaced them all in one shot.

Please forgive my noob-like question, but what is the best way to search by row and matrix for a problem diode and how do I know if the diode is bad?

Thanks a lot guys. I know my way around fixing arcade machines but this pinball troubleshooting is all new to me.

#15 3 years ago

The way to check your lamp matrix would be to open up your manual to the lamp matrix page, it will have them listed in an 8x8 matrix I believe. Find the row or column you are having problems with in the matrix from the manual, then check those sockets under the playfield. You are looking for one that is missing a diode between the connectors.

I did not watch your video, but I will say that when I put in non-ghosting leds in my TSPP, there were still some flickering and ghosting problems. This game is notorious for them. The really good news is that there is a product to help this, the LEDOCD board. Once you install it, the LEDs in this machine really do look incredible and the ghosting issues disappear. It will even do proper fading and sweeping, which you cannot get currently with your non-ghosting bulbs.

#16 3 years ago

2 bulbs in the span of a couple days. Is it possible, yes. But seems kinda coincidental. Gibbs Rule #1, I don't believe in coicidences. I'd agree with the above. Cold be a simple crack solder joint or broken loose diode on either of those inserts or just up stream.

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from ff6735:

2 bulbs in the span of a couple days. Is it possible, yes. But seems kinda coincidental. Gibbs Rule #1, I don't believe in coicidences. I'd agree with the above. Cold be a simple crack solder joint or broken loose diode on either of those inserts or just up stream.

The two bulbs that burned out were play field GI bulbs, not inserts. Would that make a difference?

#18 3 years ago

Just take a quick look at those bulb sockets you believe are ghosting badly. See if they have the diode in place. If so, make sure its in there snug and doesn't have any loose solder cracks around it.

Based on your video, with the start of the ball, one your itchy and scratchy lights should be blinking to indicate the currently selected Itchy mode, your skill shot should be blinking to indicate you have a skill shot ready to go, and shoot again should also be blinking, indicating ball save is currently on.

#19 3 years ago

Also, quick check to make sure the bulbs are marked as NG.

#20 3 years ago

FYI: based on your statement of where the game came from, the number of plays and how well the guy took care of it does not rule out a hardware problem. I open brand new games that have hard ware problems or games with 20 plays. You never know. I would put my money on a diode though.

#21 3 years ago

What I did based on my problem, was going in single lamp mode, and then for each lamp mark the lamp(s) that are incorrectly lit. I saw my problem lamp where a 'bad' row and column crossed. Checked there and there was no diode installed.

#22 3 years ago

I have a Scared Stiff that has developed this problem with a few lights in the light matrix. It's a Williams I know, not Stern, but it's the same issue. I've yet to track it down, but it's on my list of things to do. It does this whether I have no-ghosting LEDs or incandescents installed (I tried both). One of the inserts affected is the extra ball insert, which is really annoying to see that flashing when you know there's no extra ball available. Good luck tracking this down.

#23 3 years ago

If there are any mods on the game and they aren't hooked up right, they can cause light issues.

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from Jakers:

There were no ghosting issues that I remember when I first brought the game home. I purchased it from a collector that meticulously takes care of his pins. The game only had 230 plays on it when I purchased it from him so I have a hard time believing that it's a hardware issue...but I am new to the world of pinball ownership so I could be completely wrong in thinking this. When I get home I'll replace one of the ghosting LEDs with an incandescent bulb and see what happens.

super irrelevant and replacing one of those bulbs won't solve or prove anything. It's likely that the incandescent bulbs hid the underlying problem.

Quoted from Jakers:

what is the best way to search by row and matrix for a problem diode and how do I know if the diode is bad?

A bad diode is one possible cause but only one. What you need to do is make a chart. Go into single lamp text and light up each lamp. Look around to see what others are lit up. Don't use stern lamp numbers but instead use the row/column number also on the display. Make a chart. You may find for example that when 11 should be lit, 13, 14, 18 are lit. And when 21 should be lit, 23, 24, 28 are lit. Go through the whole lamp matrix and note the issues. From there we can maybe discern a pattern. The problem will not be with one of the ghosting bulb sockets. It will be somewhere else.

I've seen this problem caused by bad board transistor, improperly wired playfield sign, diode that is shorting against a 44 socket base, mods hooked up to inserts that didn't use their own diodes (common). I've never yet actually had a diode fail and go bad. This is an advanced problem to track down and not a quick fix unfortunately.

Quoted from Rum-Z:

I have a Scared Stiff that has developed this problem with a few lights in the light matrix. It's a Williams I know, not Stern, but it's the same issue. I've yet to track it down, but it's on my list of things to do. It does this whether I have no-ghosting LEDs or incandescents installed (I tried both). One of the inserts affected is the extra ball insert, which is really annoying to see that flashing when you know there's no extra ball available. Good luck tracking this down.

Use the steps above and make a chart the same way. It applies to your game as well.

#25 3 years ago

Has there been any additional lights installed? Spotlights or anything? If there has been, that's where i would start.

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from Jakers:

The two bulbs that burned out were play field GI bulbs, not inserts. Would that make a difference?

The GI bulbs are not in the row/column matrix like the inserts. they are just in strands/lines.

it wouldn't surprise me if after transit some older (hell even new ) incandescent bulbs burned out.

I agree with others that you haven't seemed to rule out a wiring issue, yet.

#27 3 years ago

As far as my SS goes, I did ad some mods like the flickering candles and the lighted skull pile, so I'll start my investigation there. Thanks for all the suggestions guys!

#28 3 years ago

Sorry about my ignorance, but what is the ghosting effect?
I have another question, does it exist black light bulb or led (# 44 and #555)?
Thanks

#29 3 years ago

Well I had some time this weekend to check out my ghosting issue. I went into single lamp diagnostic mode and found out that almost every light in the game makes another light ghost. Here are my findings:

The first number is the lamp that is supposed to be lit, then the name of the ghosting lamp with the number in parentheses.

11 ghosts shoot again (3)
15 ghosts light Otto (7)
16 ghosts adv pops (8)
17 ghosts spay anything (9)
18 ghosts kitty kitty bang bang (10)
19 ghosts field of screams (11)
20 ghosts esophagus now (12)
21 ghosts itchy/scratchy yellow arrow (13)
22 ghosts itchy/scratchy multiball (14)
23 ghosts itchy/scratchy 2x (15)
25 ghosts left pop bumper (17)
26 ghosts light (upper play field) (66)
28 ghosts more time arrow (20)
29 ghosts collect nuclear plant (21)
30 ghosts left orbit arrow (22)
31 ghosts Cletus 2x (23)
32 ghosts left orbit hurry up (24)
33 ghosts cbg skill shot (25)
34 ghosts cbg start hurry up (26)
35 ghosts purple ramps (27)
36 ghosts purple bumpers (28)
37 ghosts purple loops (29)
38 ghosts purple targets (30)
41 ghosts left ramp arrow (33)
42 ghosts treehouse of horror (34)
43 ghosts treehouse 2x (35)
44 ghosts left ramp hurry up (36)
45 ghosts right ramp arrow (37)
46 ghosts get duffed! (38)
47 ghosts Moes 2x (39)
48 ghosts right ramp hurry up (40)
49 ghosts mini loop arrow (41)
50 ghosts kwik e mart 2x (42)
51 ghosts kwik e mart hurry up (43)
54 ghosts garage 2x (46)
55 ghosts garage hurry up (47)
56 ghosts right orbit arrow (48)
57 ghosts right loop arrow (49)
58 ghosts ottos bus tours (50)
59 ghosts elementary 2x (51)
60 ghosts bully 3 bank TOP (52)
61 ghosts built 3 bank MIDDLE (53)
62 ghosts bully 3 bank BOTTOM (54)
63 ghosts krusty 2x (55)
64 ghosts right orbit hurry up (56)
65 ghosts homer face (57)
66 ghosts Marge face (58)
67 ghosts Bart face (59)
68 ghosts Lisa face (60)
69 ghosts Maggie face (61)
70 ghosts grandpa face (62)
73 ghosts living room 2x (65)
74 ghosts light upper playfield (66)
75 ghosts lock upper playfield (67)
76 ghosts big lock upper playfield (68)
77 ghosts super jackpot upper playfield (69)
78 ghosts upper playfield yellow arrow (70)

Holy....crap....

#30 3 years ago
Quoted from Jakers:

Holy....crap....

No kidding...

#31 3 years ago

At least there is a pattern, everything spaced by minus 8. Every bulb is ghosting the bulb above it in the same column of the lamp matrix. I'm not smart enough to know what does this thoguh

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from foxct:

At least there is a pattern, everything spaced by minus 8. Every bulb is ghosting the bulb above it in the same column of the lamp matrix. I'm not smart enough to know what does this thoguh

With those results, I'm going to have to go back on my earlier assessment. With nearly every bulb causing the same column, previous row to ghost, it looks much more like a typical timing issue. Normally, non-ghosting bulbs or LED OCD fixes this kind of ghosting. The one that doesn't fit the pattern, however, is 26 causing 66 to ghost.

#33 3 years ago

I have a ghosting problem, too.

I can't afford to buy the NIB Stern Ghostbusters premium that I'd like to have.

#34 3 years ago
Quoted from herg:

With those results, I'm going to have to go back on my earlier assessment. With nearly every bulb causing the same column, previous row to ghost, it looks much more like a typical timing issue. Normally, non-ghosting bulbs or LED OCD fixes this kind of ghosting. The one that doesn't fit the pattern, however, is 26 causing 66 to ghost.

I have the Same problem in a IJ4 but these are cheap LED bulbs that came with the game when I got it. Are you saying the LED OCD will fix this?

Thanks

#35 3 years ago
Quoted from Lawnboy:

I have the Same problem in a IJ4 but these are cheap LED bulbs that came with the game when I got it. Are you saying the LED OCD will fix this?
Thanks

I would like to avoid hijacking this thread with an advertisement, but yes, that is one of the things it does. If you have ghosting that is caused by software timing rather than a lamp matrix issue, LED OCD can fix it.

#36 3 years ago
Quoted from Lawnboy:

I have the Same problem in a IJ4 but these are cheap LED bulbs that came with the game when I got it. Are you saying the LED OCD will fix this?
Thanks

Yes and so will non ghosting bulbs.

Quoted from Jakers:Well I had some time this weekend to check out my ghosting issue. I went into single lamp diagnostic mode and found out that almost every light in the game makes another light ghost. Here are my findings:
The first number is the lamp that is supposed to be lit, then the name of the ghosting lamp with the number in parentheses.
11 ghosts shoot again (3)
15 ghosts light Otto (7)
16 ghosts adv pops (8)
17 ghosts spay anything (9)
18 ghosts kitty kitty bang bang (10)
19 ghosts field of screams (11)
20 ghosts esophagus now (12)
21 ghosts itchy/scratchy yellow arrow (13)
22 ghosts itchy/scratchy multiball (14)
23 ghosts itchy/scratchy 2x (15)
25 ghosts left pop bumper (17)
26 ghosts light (upper play field) (66)
28 ghosts more time arrow (20)
29 ghosts collect nuclear plant (21)
30 ghosts left orbit arrow (22)
31 ghosts Cletus 2x (23)
32 ghosts left orbit hurry up (24)
33 ghosts cbg skill shot (25)
34 ghosts cbg start hurry up (26)
35 ghosts purple ramps (27)
36 ghosts purple bumpers (28)
37 ghosts purple loops (29)
38 ghosts purple targets (30)
41 ghosts left ramp arrow (33)
42 ghosts treehouse of horror (34)
43 ghosts treehouse 2x (35)
44 ghosts left ramp hurry up (36)
45 ghosts right ramp arrow (37)
46 ghosts get duffed! (38)
47 ghosts Moes 2x (39)
48 ghosts right ramp hurry up (40)
49 ghosts mini loop arrow (41)
50 ghosts kwik e mart 2x (42)
51 ghosts kwik e mart hurry up (43)
54 ghosts garage 2x (46)
55 ghosts garage hurry up (47)
56 ghosts right orbit arrow (48)
57 ghosts right loop arrow (49)
58 ghosts ottos bus tours (50)
59 ghosts elementary 2x (51)
60 ghosts bully 3 bank TOP (52)
61 ghosts built 3 bank MIDDLE (53)
62 ghosts bully 3 bank BOTTOM (54)
63 ghosts krusty 2x (55)
64 ghosts right orbit hurry up (56)
65 ghosts homer face (57)
66 ghosts Marge face (58)
67 ghosts Bart face (59)
68 ghosts Lisa face (60)
69 ghosts Maggie face (61)
70 ghosts grandpa face (62)
73 ghosts living room 2x (65)
74 ghosts light upper playfield (66)
75 ghosts lock upper playfield (67)
76 ghosts big lock upper playfield (68)
77 ghosts super jackpot upper playfield (69)
78 ghosts upper playfield yellow arrow (70)
Holy....crap....

With those results I would conclude that you didn't get non ghosting bulbs and have regulars installed. The solution here is probably led OCD or to replace all the inserts with non ghosting variety. This isn't the type of pattern that occurs from shorted diode or such.

#37 3 years ago

Thanks guys. Love all the help on here I just posted something for free so look and see if you need it

1 week later
#38 3 years ago

So I ended up ordering from LED OCD. It completely fixed all the ghosting issues. The inserts all fade nice and smooth now as well. Thanks!

#39 3 years ago

Awesome! I'm glad that's all that was wrong with it. Thanks for the feedback.

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