(Topic ID: 167511)

Proto Demo Man has WPC-S CPU!

By DanQverymuch

7 years ago


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#1 7 years ago

So it turns out that my Demolition Man is definitely a prototype!

It had proto ROMs in it, four unlabeled inserts, and all red light boards, but some remained unconvinced.

But now it has come to my attention that it has a WPC-S CPU board in it! (Which would be why the set of home ROMs I ordered for it doesn't work right, specifically the CPU ROM.)

Then I found this 2004 rgp post from Ted Estes himself: "Demolition Man prototype games used the security chip. There may be a few of them out there still. My memory is hazy on the details -- I put regular WPC CPUs in quite a few of them after we finished with the initial development of the Security CPU and code.

"Sample and production games all used the original WPC CPU."

So there is at least one "out there" -- mine!

Anyway, I gather that I could simply drop an original WPC CPU board in there to use the new ROM, is this correct? (I could figure it out by checking connectors and schematics, but many of you would know the answer offhand, and whether any other changes would be needed.)

Interestingly, with the new ROM (for WPC), the (WPC-S) CPU booted into attract and the menus and lamp tests work fine, but the switch matrix is dead. I didn't try firing any solenoids.

#2 7 years ago

Cool!
Yes, as far as plugs go, they're completely interchangeable. Would have to use new ROMs though - wouldn't be able to junp back to the proto without changing the board back.

#3 7 years ago

The switch matrix is dead because that's what the security chip does, disables the switch matrix. So if the code expects there to be a security PIC, and there isn't one, there's no switch matrix, essentially making the game unplayable.

Yes, you can swap boards without issue, connectors are exactly the same.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#4 7 years ago

As a Demo Man fan, I'd be interested in seeing pictures of this rare piece! Do you have a link to any?

#5 7 years ago

Neat piece, but this might be one of those situations where having a prototype is a pain. Think Funhouse with a system 11 sound board.

#6 7 years ago
Quoted from dung:

Neat piece, but this might be one of those situations where having a prototype is a pain. Think Funhouse with a system 11 sound board.

Prototype and low-production stuff are always going to be challenging. If you're interested in that stuff, you just simply have to be prepared for the extra time & attention that may be necessary for owning them.

#7 7 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Prototype and low-production stuff are always going to be challenging. If you're interested in that stuff, you just simply have to be prepared for the extra time & attention that may be necessary for owning them.

Not what I was driving at. Proto's that can run production software are the best of both worlds. You get the rarity without losing out on the more mature code of the regular machines. Proto's that are stuck running proto code which often means whatever version it came with are neat, but from a player's perspective not as desirable.

A few years ago someone unearthed a proto tmnt with an assembly not found on the production machines. It had no roms and may very well still be useless to play without them. There was a wwf that showed up with a taf like magnet arrangement. It was sold as not running, but same deal applies. Funhouse prototypes with the system 11 boardset cannot run production roms and are stuck with early code. OPs game is neat, but he can drop in another cpu board and get the full experience. Otherwise, you have a demo man with red boards and less to play.

There are a few protos that recieved short runs that would be more interesting for the player. Radical for example as the production machines did not get much in the way of updates and the proto machines had more to them.

#8 7 years ago
Quoted from Borygard:

The switch matrix is dead because that's what the security chip does, disables the switch matrix. So if the code expects there to be a security PIC, and there isn't one, there's no switch matrix, essentially making the game unplayable.
Yes, you can swap boards without issue, connectors are exactly the same.

Thanks, Rob, et. al. What's interesting here is that in this case, it's the other way around, the production code doesn't expect there to be a security PIC, and there is one! I don't suppose I could just yank out the PIC? (I doubt it, that would be too easy!)

So I guess the question becomes, do I spend more money on a WPC CPU to play the $65 ROM set?...

#9 7 years ago

No sorry - you will need to replace the board itself. No way to get non-S software to run on an -S board. (And, like mentioned, vice-versa.)

On the PLUS side, you won't need to worry about changing out any of the *other* boards..

(Edit: $65 for a ROM set? I am definitely under-charging..!)

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

No sorry - you will need to replace the board itself. No way to get non-S software to run on an -S board. (And, like mentioned, vice-versa.)
On the PLUS side, you won't need to worry about changing out any of the *other* boards..
(Edit: $65 for a ROM set? I am definitely under-charging..!)

I figured it had been tried.

Perhaps the fact that the S board was being developed would explain this odd behavior with some switches disappearing during play with the proto ROMs...

Looks like I'm in the market for a WPC89 CPU board. Can I use the ASIC from the WPC-S on it?

The $65 ROM set was the 9 chip home (swear) version!

#11 7 years ago

Any WPC ROM will boot in any version WPC CPU. Just don't expect to be able to play the game because as mentioned, the switch matrix is killed by the PIC if things don't match up.

The ASIC, CPU, and RAM are also interchangeable between CPU versions, and all will work fine in all versions of the board.

I have used and reproduction CPUs if you need one. Though you should be able to find a used one from a Pinsider for less than I could sell you one for.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#12 7 years ago

What was the point of the security chip? It's not like someone was going to bootleg the entire cabinet and all the assemblies to make bootleg pinballs.

#13 7 years ago
Quoted from purplemunkydishw:

What was the point of the security chip? It's not like someone was going to bootleg the entire cabinet and all the assemblies to make bootleg pinballs.

It was williams way of region locking machines. This was a move to help distributors from being poached by other distributors willing to sell machines for less, but who were in a different region of the world.

#14 7 years ago
Quoted from purplemunkydishw:

What was the point of the security chip? It's not like someone was going to bootleg the entire cabinet and all the assemblies to make bootleg pinballs.

The most significant difference was the introduction of the security PIC. This devices contains a serial number and a handshake mechanism. The serial number is displayed at startup, and allowed the manufacturer to identify the dealer who sold a machine into a particular region. This approach was necessary when substantial price differences were common across Europe, to prevent grey imports.

http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#WPC-S_CPU_2

#15 7 years ago

So is this inaccurate, from the PinWiki entry for WPC-S?

"The board also has different switch matrix connectors than WPC and WPC-95"

#16 7 years ago

Different but compatible.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#17 7 years ago

Well, I wound up cannibalizing the WPC89 out of my Judge Dredd that I had been thinking about selling anyway, and am now happily playing that latest home ROM in the DM. Then a buddy was happy to buy the JD sans CPU. The DM's original WPC-S CPU and proto ROM will stay with the game too, safely ensconced in an anti-static bag behind the coin door.

Thanks again for the info, guys! Quite the happy ending to this saga!

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