yep, the hobby is definitely on the rise. whether this is the peak or not, 2014 is definitely going to be the most interesting year for pinball in a long, long time.

I also remember when you sell a Pac man cocktail for $1200 now they are worth about $300. But anyway the surge pinball popularity is great and hope its not short lived.

That's awesome! Great time to be in this hobby. I think I'm going to have to attend a PAPA event soon. They sound like a lot of fun.

I don't want to derail the thread, but what caused the cocktail video game price crash? were there a bunch of new ones made? or is it just because it's early 80s nostalgia while the pinball surge in its current incarnation is more 90s nostalgia? just a different generation reaching their peak buying power?

It's a good question but the answer isn't a simple one. Classic arcade games were primarily a 1978-1992 phenomena that essentially ended when fighting games took over (14 years there). Pinball machines, (with flippers) have been around for around 67 years. Pinball is a bigger slice of Americana. Look at gas pumps, jukeboxes, classic cars, even antiques. All of those collectable things went DOWN in price around the economic downturn of 2007-2008. When you look at the overall value of a hobby, the larger ones see less of a loss in value. Classic cars, for the most part, fell a little, and are back on the upswing. Classic motorcycles however, are more valuable than they ever were. In a lot of ways, it is also how the collectible is presented to those interested in it, and also those that have little interest in it.

If it wasn't for people like Gary Stern, Kevin Martin, Tim Arnold, Mike's CHI EXPO, endless talented restorations, parts distributors, and even Pinside itself, ALL presenting the hobby in such a positive light, the "value" just would NOT be there. Pinburgh is no exception. It is unique and very positive for all aspects and reasons for playing pinball.

Those figures and events were never really there for Arcades. I do see California Extreme and Lousville arcade expo as very positive events. However, I don't see the Arcade/Pinball/Competitive Pinball/Parts suppliers all existing separately for very long. They all need each other to grasp a large enough slice of people that "remember that old game" and will actually travel to attend and reminisce about the classics.

You are not comparing apples to apples. Pinball is not a video game. Unless you are nostalgic for a cabinet, you can play many of the exact games on PCs, Mame or game consoles.

I don't think the reason they went down in value has much to do with PC's or MAME.

Also, there are a VERY large amount of arcades you could never emulate faithfully (at least not cost efficiently). Mainly one's with very unique controls that I collect... Anyhow back on topic...

I also agree that Arcades and Pins themselves have little to do with each other. However, that are both very large collectible objects that have a very small slice of folks willing to actually put up with that fact. That's why I mentioned other "large" hobbies like jukes and motorcycles.

MAME killed the value of classic vids.The death was increased dramatically by the xx in one boards. Most people just want to play games. They don't care that it's original. MAME takes time to set up and get working properly. An xx in 1 board is dead simple. Buy a used JAMMA compatible game and put in the board. Done. That said, some classic vids still sell for serious money.

I don't see the same thing happening to pinball as you cann't really emulate it perfectly. Playing a real pinball is a totally different experience than playing visual pinball, for example.

Cheers,
Duane

I just quit the hobby. Add me to the statistics.

I'd also agree that the "MultiGame", MAME, even arcade collections for consoles contributed to the downfall of the classic arcade machine. A $50 JAMMA board contains the bulk of the vertical arcade games that people collected. The cabinet and controls are special for some games but not enough for any but serious collectors. And I have to say, being a video game collector as well, I bought most of the games I wanted years ago and still have them. I think there are a lot of people like me.

As for pinball, even if it's old, it's still a unique experience that other forms of technology can't duplicate close enough to convince you it's good enough. There has to be a ball on a playfield. I also think the VidKids have been finding Pinball and growing up. I saw it in a lot of my friends that have moved from Vids to Pins and haven't looked back.

I still have both and buy and sell both. But really, when people see how cool modern pins are, they "get it". I think that's why there's growth - people have rediscovered it!

Pinburgh 2011: 173 players.
Pinburgh 2012: 273 players.
Pinburgh 2013: 400 player sellout after three weeks, final count 396.
Pinburgh 2014: 400 player sellout in 103 minutes.

What should happen next?

Here's one other piece of "evidence" - the first line of this recent Esquire article states "Pinball is having somewhat of a comeback right now...."

This is MAINSTREAM media - and this sort of sentiment has popped up frequently in recent months from sources outside of the pinball (or pinside) community.

Clearly an indicator that the public at large is becoming increasingly aware that pinball is resurfacing.

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/culture/rock-pinball

If you are still in the forums, you still count.

The proof of the amazing growth in the pinball hobby is simple. Look at
the increase in prices over the past few years. More collectors looking
for a limited number of games.

As a classic vid collector too, I've seen the prices drop a LOT.
Is this because of MAME? Maybe. I built one myself so I at least
had access to games that I'd likely never find in the wild (like Quantum).
Mini's and cocktails are at the top of my list of cabinet styles to get.
Steve

A lottery or auction so it's fare to those who cannot be at a computer at noon when it sells out in 20 minutes next year.

any possibility of expanding the field?

You can play Pac-Man on your cell phone now. That's good enough for most people to enjoy their 80's nostalgia. Although now you can also play pinball on your cell phone - but it's had the opposite effect ...it gives people a taste - then they want the real thing!

interesting comparison, and I think you are right! definitely worked on me

I would say competitive pinball is growing but a large chunk of the new competitive pinball players seem to not be interested in owning machines. There are different subsets of our still small world and I would say competitive pinball has seen the most growth but game collecting has definately slowed down a bit in overall growth (still growing just not like it was 1 year ago).

The argument just doesn't hold water. If emulation was solely responsible, then why are a lot of SNES and NES games selling for $800-$1500 these days? You can play them all for free on a PC. Nearly every single collector that owns arcade games these days is well aware of MAME, 60-in-1, 500-in-1, and still collects those games regardless of that fact. A quick hop over to the KLOV forums can also confirm this.

When was the last time you saw a dedicated unmolested pac man or ms pacman cabaret that didn't have a 60-in-1 JAMMA board in it? I own a couple of them and 20 years from now, they will be worth a lot more than a 60-in-1 in that same cabinet or, whatever the hell fancy pirate board is out then.

And yes, there are a lot of people like you. I don't care that I can play Arkanoid on my PC or even a 60-in-1. It is not the same physically or mentally. One other aspect is that if you are trying to beat a classic high score on a vintage arcade, you have to use the real thing.

I guess my argument is, how many people are there like you? And trust me, I get what you're saying. But the reality is, that if a guy wants a Pac-Man machine in his man cave, and it's his only game, he's going to be happier with the 60 in 1 than the dedicated, because it's not going to break and he gets to play Galaga and Donkey Kong, etc. I still own 13 vids, 5 of them are vectors. I totally understand classic arcade collecting. Casual collectors (man-cave-guy) will care less whether it's got the original board or if the joystick is right or not. My comments were that the pinball experience is not duplicated as easily.

right. nothing against collectors at all, and obviously people like snyper2099 are out there and their interest with vintage games is very cool, but i think there are more people who are just more casual about it and would rather have a cabinet that plays 60 games rather than one game.

Who wants to buy all my NES and SNES games?

Isengard bids three. Dollars.

IMO there is a renessance but usually it is followed by a crash. Remember the 90s? Stern and jjp command top dollard, almost ridiculous prices for their pins, that over time will drive the casual crowd away. Let see if there is a price increase on mustang, That will tell a lot...

I PM'd you an offer a month ago but you never responded.

I wish people would heed your words. I get disgusted at the actions of some of us pinballers sometimes. I've had friends quit trading, selling, buying from others because people are just ***es in the pinball world sometimes. Now they only buy NIB. I know, I know, I'll hear the usual "thats just people in life", but in the street bike trading, modding world that I deal with, I have never met as many arrogant people as I have here.

On a side note, I have also met some awesome people! Love some of you guys! I'll add ejg10532626 to that comment because of your great quote! Cheers bud!

I'm willing to sell at the low end of the spectrum - only $800 each.

I sold my copies of boxed & sealed Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy III (US) on eBay at like $80 each about 8 years ago thinking I was making out like a bandit. Now they're worth like 5 times that at least. I also sold an analog synthesizer to someone around the same time for about $70 that ended up being work a couple grand later. It is hard to predict what anything is going to be worth to a collector in the future. If we knew beforehand, nothing would be worth anything since we'd all hold onto things and take care of them, or we'd just never sell them. One thing is for sure though, pinball is definitely seeing an upswing again, and I don't care if my machines appreciate in value or plummet.

Still have the boxed and sealed Super Metroid. Only that isn't worth so much. Sentimental value is through the roof though!

Biggest thing that needs to be done at the PAPA facility is to buy up that somewhat wreck of a storage building and expand the parking area.

I would argue the press and trend are a sign of the opposite . 2012 & 2013s explosion is whats being talked about and there is a good chance that was the top of the mountain. Regardless pinball has made its mark again. Upswing or down will probably be more evident in 2014.

I'd be interested in one cocktail game (Defender or Galaga) for nostalgic reasons, and the cocktail takes up less space than the full size arcade. I absolutely agree that the long term play factor would factor in and they would sit until new playing visitors showed up. The pins - they get played, even after they have been ignored they are easy to go back to.

I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but I'm the guy you're describing & I'm clueless about arcade units. I was just given an old Pac-Man cabinet with the original boards & a hack to play Ms Pac Man. If you're saying there's a 60 in 1 JAMMA board that I can install to play all the classics like Donkey Kong, then I need to find one Where do I look, what do I search for?

Sorry for getting off topic

Just google 60-in1 JAMMA ...there are a bunch of places that sell cheap chinese multi-game boards. If you get a Pac-to-JAMMA adaptor, you can use one of those boards in your cabinet pretty easily.

^^^^^

Thanks, I'll do some research

It actually was a different user who was selling games, not you. My apologies. If you are serious, send me a list of what you have for sale.

I would have to say that we know there has been growth with a lot of newbs the past 2 years. I think many of them are now putting down LED's and toppers, and actually going out and trying out shows and tournies. I don't think there has been a massive growth this year, like it was. Just more of the new guys going outside of the house.

This whole situation reminds me, as a runner, of the Boston Marathon. For years you had months to sign up before it would reach capacity and close. Slowly, more and more people signed up earlier and eventually, a few years ago, it filled up in a matter on hours (and that's over 20,000 people).
What they started doing was giving the best runners the first few days to sign up, then the next tier of runners get a few days to sign up, and so on until it eventually opens to everyone until completely filled. This ensured that the best runners would have the best chances and most time to sign up. It was all based on previous marathon times.

Pinburgh could work similarly. "A" level players could be given a chance to register first, then "B", "C", and so on. Each can be given a few days to sign up (so the first few days just A can sign up, then the next few days A and B could sign up, then A, B, and C could sign up, etc.) until it fills.

I would also set aside so many positions for newcomers in a lottery type of entry. As a growing hobby, you don't want to turn away new players.

Just my suggestions!

If PAPA wants to also reserve slots they could keep some for the D class amateurs could sign up early also??? Sounds like that is part of their motivation with the whole event?

I thought you were joking. I do have some old NES, SNES and Game Boy games, but my guess is they aren't terribly collectible. I'll send you an inventory list if I can.

Is there some reason that Pinburgh can't host more than 400 competitors? (Please forgive me if this is a dumb question.)

Machines/techs/space. As configured the event needs about competitors/2 unique machines. 400 is too round a number for me to believe it's the ultimate limit, but it's probably an easy stopping place.

Keeping 200 machines up and running and the competitors moving is not trivial: I think mhs said he walked more than a marathon last pinburgh.

Raise the entry fee to $500 and give out higher cash prizes to keep the riff raff out!

More proof...
FL pinball related shows in 2010: 1
FL pinball related shows in 2011: 2
FL pinball related shows in 2012: 3
FL pinball related shows in 2013: 3
FL pinball related shows in 2014: 4?

The thread: expand their space.

OT: while I like original arcade games, I'd love to build my own MAME cabinet. There isn't one or two games I like where it'd be nice to get the real thing, there are many games I'd like to casually play again.

Also, I don't know how typical I am, but I started into this hobby after playing Pinball Hall of Fame: the Williams Collection. While the video game can't emulate real world physics and feel, I still came to realize that there are actually rulesets and not just random flipping. I was able to see some awesome presentations like those found in TOTAN and MM. The game and its successor motivated me to track down some real life pins and after my first show (Ohio Show) last year, I started collecting. I'm also in a league now.

Evidence against: New Dave & Busters in our town has 0 pinball machines, about a half dozen games that are essentially giant cell phone games. Apparently investing in big versions of games people could play for free in their pocket is less risky than a $5-8,000 electronic Rube Goldberg sculpture intended to be shoved all day.

Not everybody wants to drive to Pittsburgh twice a year to play pinball. Pinball will be surging when you can actually go and play new or well refurbished pinball in modest markets. This is just evidence that Papa is rockin' it. As if you needed more.

Dave and Buster's isn't any fun for me anymore. No pins and stupid ticket games so I can get an eraser for $50.