(Topic ID: 207486)

Problems with Stargate Upper Flipper


By BlakeBowden

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 58 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by zacaj
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 18 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

BC56B656-A5A5-4D6C-B68C-2F7A84A2DEE4 (resized).jpeg
975CBED2-FCA8-4DAC-AFFD-F041DB27AEB2 (resized).jpeg
AAD6C1C3-5F16-4964-8E0A-4C844565468E (resized).jpeg
20180120_135340 (resized).jpg
20180120_135327 (resized).jpg
E41AC90C-31A7-4CC5-8959-E5BB06C8A117 (resized).jpeg
C5BAD64D-6702-4652-9531-9E16C41FC096 (resized).jpeg
A2B5EC22-8ADC-44F5-BB82-F9C135B17B08 (resized).jpeg
81043BD5-9E62-46AC-941A-DB7BEA217AB7 (resized).jpeg
5F3E2CEF-E043-4DCE-ACE2-AD2808A4CE04 (resized).jpeg
0FE633C7-97A2-4C9B-9067-F39F33DB7FAA (resized).jpeg
41322335-AD6E-44F0-B32D-3F333E66FCB3 (resized).jpeg
DA4D058E-9492-45EA-8244-4D5D7CBDBF00 (resized).jpeg
20180116_135805 (resized).jpg
53CF6113-AD5F-474A-9F99-E51671598239 (resized).jpeg
B064DCA6-3F95-47E6-ACE8-62B97B01645D (resized).jpeg

There are 58 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 2 years ago

I own one pinball machine, Gottlieb's Stargate, which has an upper right flipper that I'm trying to fix. Don't have a lot of experience with pins but am trying to fix it myself.

1. Flipper stopped working. Was consistently blowing a fuse.
-- It worked for a while ( 7-8 games) before blowing fuse again. Eventually stopped altogether.
2. Removed coil and found that coil sleeve was melted.
3. Purchased new flipper rebuild kit (included new switch) and a new coil.
4. Bought a learned the basics of a digital multimeter (I think).
5. Got flipper working but found that flipper was slipping. Part of flipper bat was damaged.
6. Replaced flipper bat assembly.
7. Put it back together but it is not working. Probably wired it wrong.
8. Hoping that sending a few pictures to some of you that know more about pinball machines (probably all of you) will help me see the error of my ways.

Confirmed that:
- flipper is receiving 46v of power coming in to one of the 3 terminals on the coil. 0 volts on other 2 terminals.
- the lower, working flippers have 46v on all 3 terminals of those coils.
- have continuity between the two wires attached to the switch leafs.
- have less than 1 volt coming out of each of the two wires coming from the switch.
- I replaced the wire on the switches with wire I purchased from local electronic store.

Attached is a picture of the replacement coil and the replacement wire for switch (in case this is part of my problem). I've looked at videos on line where the person replacing the flipper knows which terminal should get the wire with the incoming power, which one gets the outgoing power (sorry I don't know my electrical terminology), and which ones get attached too which switch leaf. I'm trying to follow the picture I took of the flipper assembly before I took it apart but can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Appreciate any advice you could provide that would keep me from having to pay someone to come look at my machine.

#2 2 years ago

Pictures not showing up

#3 2 years ago

Reattaching images.

BA5238FC-4AC3-4424-B9C5-541718FB9E02 (resized).jpeg

50BEF54B-CA9C-4E71-8EA8-D40708867354 (resized).jpeg

#4 2 years ago

Can you post some pictures of the way it's wired in currently? And a picture of the lower right flipper for reference. They should be wired basically the same.

#5 2 years ago

The pic with red coil is the pic from BEFORE I rebuilt flipper and replaced coil. I’m using this pic as a reference for wiring it back.

Pic with white coil is lower right flipper. Slightly different coil. Wire colors are different on this flipper so it’s not that much help.

Was hoping someone could confirm based pic I sent earlier which terminal should get incoming power. Hoping it would be obvious to someone else.

I’ll wire the new flipper in again and send that pic tomorrow. Thanks

B064DCA6-3F95-47E6-ACE8-62B97B01645D (resized).jpeg

53CF6113-AD5F-474A-9F99-E51671598239 (resized).jpeg

#6 2 years ago

Both of those coils seem to be wired up correctly per the schematics. The important thing to note is the band on the diode. It needs to go towards the 48VDC (black-purple-purple). The side without the band should go through the flipper switches (black-green-green) on the cabinet and then to ground. Your wire looks fine.

Quoted from BlakeBowden:- have continuity between the two wires attached to the switch leafs.

Do you still have continuity if you disconnect one of the two wires going between the EOS switch and the coil? Sometimes the new EOS switches come with a slight coating from the factory, or aren't adjusted quite right so that they close properly. If there isn't good continuity across them, then the flipper won't work well. Checking for continuity with the EOS switch still connected to the coil can give a false positive as there can be continuity through the coil as well as through the switch.

Also, check the resistance of your new coil, make sure there's a reading between each pair of lugs.

#7 2 years ago

On maintenance method you had to check 1st where the power comes...on the A3 driver board (attached pictures of my stargate burned last week)
Find the transistor who active the right upper flipper, test one you are sure it works for knowing values...for testing a soldered transistor you had to test continuity between each legs and on both side because it works like a diode inside...you might have all same value on all transistor. Also have burned transistor without any proof of it at first look. Many burns but not until I shunt all ground wires.

20180116_135805 (resized).jpg

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from Benhurr:

On maintenance method you had to check 1st where the power comes...on the A3 driver board (attached pictures of my stargate burned last week)
Find the transistor who active the right upper flipper, test one you are sure it works for knowing values...for testing a soldered transistor you had to test continuity between each legs and on both side because it works like a diode inside...you might have all same value on all transistor. Also have burned transistor without any proof of it at first look. Many burns but not until I shunt all ground wires.

Flippers aren't controlled by transistors on system 3

#9 2 years ago

Sorry for this mistake I had not notice that yet. Thank you Zacaj

#10 2 years ago

If you're measuring voltage on the input lug (banded side of the diode) and no voltage on the other lugs, then either your coil is broken or you have short to ground somewhere after the input lug. Depending on where the short is, that could explain why your flipper doesn't fire, or could explain why your coil was melted.

I'm not at all familiar with Gottliebs, but my advice is to turn power OFF and measure continuity between the lugs and ground. If there is continuity on any of them, I think that's the problem.

#11 2 years ago

To clarify my testing of continuity on switch leafs, I tested without the switch being connected to the coil. Specifically, I tested the end of the wires connected to the switch leafs.

Regarding testing resistance between lugs, know how to measure resistance between lugs with multimeter. What kind of numbers am I hoping for? Thanks

#12 2 years ago

Just checked continuity on coil. Looking left to right like in earlier coil pic, I have continuity between lug 2 and lug 3. No continuity with lug 1. I’m assuming this is okay because coil is new and I get same result on a 2nd new coil I plan to use on lower flipper at some point. Sound okay?

#13 2 years ago

Resistance between lug 1 and lug 2 is 2.8
Resistance between lug 1 and lug 3 is 2.8
Resistance between lug 2 and lug 3 is 3.9

Sound okay?

#14 2 years ago

Kyle5574, what do you mean by the terminal on the “banded side of diode”. The diode on my coil seems to be in the middle. Which lug would this be on my coil? Thanks for your patience.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from BlakeBowden:

Kyle5574, what do you mean by the terminal on the “banded side of diode”. The diode on my coil seems to be in the middle. Which lug would this be on my coil? Thanks for your patience.

The diode connects to the outer lugs, it just happens to go over the middle one

#16 2 years ago

Okay. I’ve got voltage on all 3 lugs. I can put machine into test mode and activate the right flipper. Should right, upper flipper be working also in test mode? Mine is not. Is there another way to test upper flipper in test mode? Still learning about test mode.

#17 2 years ago

Kyle5574. So which side of my diode? Is the “band” the black thing in the middle or something else? Again, thanks for helping me understand this.

DA4D058E-9492-45EA-8244-4D5D7CBDBF00 (resized).jpeg

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from BlakeBowden:

Kyle5574. So which side of my diode? Is the “band” the black thing in the middle or something else? Again, thanks for helping me understand this.

The band is the smaller white stripe on the left side of the diode. So the left lug needs to go to the 45V, and the right lug needs to go to ground/the cabinet button.

#19 2 years ago

Got it hooked back up but no flipper action. With it wired in, I’m getting 37v to each lug, continuity between all 3 lugs, and continuity on leaf switches. Its not soldered in. Was gonna wait until I get this issue resolved.

The coil is new. Could it be bad? I’m still thinking I’m not doing something right.

Thanks for the help.

41322335-AD6E-44F0-B32D-3F333E66FCB3 (resized).jpeg

#20 2 years ago

Try running a wire from the black-green wire on the upper flipper to the black-orange wire on the lower flipper

#21 2 years ago

zacaj, just so I understand, how would adding this extra wire help? I’ve seen this flipper working before I rebuilt it. I rebuilt it and replaced coil because it kept blowing fuse.

One more question. The right flipper button is attached to two switches that are stacked. Could the switch controlling the upper flipper have, coincidentally, gone bad since I rebuilt upper flipper? Is adding this wire a “workaround” to this switch issue?

Apologies if my attempts to make sense of this situation are confusing the issue. I would like to learn from this flipper rebuild before I attempt rebuild of lower flippers which are working okay now but I expect may go out soon.

Thanks again.

#22 2 years ago

Running the wire would cut out any possible problems with the flipper button switch, the wiring, connectors, etc, between the flipper and ground. We know there's voltage coming in, so that side must be good, and I don't see anything wrong with the wiring of the coil itself, so I want to rule out the ground side. Since the lower flipper works we know its ground side is good, so just connect them together to test. If it still doesn't work, then there's still some problem with the coil/eos/wiring.

Quoted from BlakeBowden:I’ve seen this flipper working before I rebuilt it. I rebuilt it and replaced coil because it kept blowing fuse.

You also said it worked after you rebuilt it until you replaced the bat, so I'm not 100% sure we can narrow the problem down to the rebuild.

Quoted from BlakeBowden:To clarify my testing of continuity on switch leafs, I tested without the switch being connected to the coil

But the switch was installed?

I'm also a bit concerned about how the voltage+continuity readings for the coil keep changing. Are you doing anything differently?

#23 2 years ago

Regarding different continuity readings. When I was getting continuity on only 2 lugs, the coil was not wired in. I got continuity on all 3 lugs after wiring it up. Assume that’s why I got 2 different results.

Not sure about differences in voltage. I got a slightly higher reading when I was only getting voltage on the one “incoming power lug” but not on other 2. When I was getting the lower reading on all 3 lugs, none of them were soldered. Not sure if that matters. Could be MM operator on my part.

I had the whole rebuilt flipper soldered in when I first noticed the issue (guessing this is a rookie mistake). I am a self- proclaimed novice with soldering. Had to desolder to start diagnosing CURRENT issue.

Now I’m operating under the premise that the only stupid question is the one that you fail to ask. Is it critical to get ALL the solder off each lug? Feel free to look at last pic of my new coil.

Will let you know how wire test goes this evening.

Appreciate your efforts!

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from BlakeBowden:

Regarding different continuity readings. When I was getting continuity on only 2 lugs, the coil was not wired in. I got continuity on all 3 lugs after wiring it up. Assume that’s why I got 2 different results.
Not sure about differences in voltage. I got a slightly higher reading when I was only getting voltage on the one “incoming power lug” but not on other 2. When I was getting the lower reading on all 3 lugs, none of them were soldered. Not sure if that matters. Could be MM operator on my part.
I had the whole rebuilt flipper soldered in when I first noticed the issue (guessing this is a rookie mistake). I am a self- proclaimed novice with soldering. Had to desolder to start diagnosing CURRENT issue.
Now I’m operating under the premise that the only stupid question is the one that you fail to ask. Is it critical to get ALL the solder off each lug? Feel free to look at last pic of my new coil.
Will let you know how wire test goes this evening.
Appreciate your efforts!

Old solder should be fine

#25 2 years ago

Connected the two wires you suggested but still no action on upper flipper. I used solid wire. Pic attached.

0FE633C7-97A2-4C9B-9067-F39F33DB7FAA (resized).jpeg

5F3E2CEF-E043-4DCE-ACE2-AD2808A4CE04 (resized).jpeg

#26 2 years ago

It was difficult to measure with my MM but I seem to have continuity on both switches attached to right flipper button. Included pic of these switches on right flipper button.

81043BD5-9E62-46AC-941A-DB7BEA217AB7 (resized).jpeg

#27 2 years ago

There seems to be something else going wrong. Now I’m getting less than 1 volt from incoming power cable (purple/black/white wire). I’m clamping red lead to purple/black/white wire and black to ground bar under play field. I was getting 30+ volts yesterday.

Apologies if I’m having operator issues with MM. sending pic of reading.

A2B5EC22-8ADC-44F5-BB82-F9C135B17B08 (resized).jpeg

#28 2 years ago

Looks like you're on AC not DC if I'm reading that ~ right

#29 2 years ago

I confirm you must put your MM on DC= not AC~ and be sure the battery inside is good if you don't want to read faulse value...check values between every legs on one that work fine and do the same at the top flipper...if there are same the problem is the coil and if there are different, it comes from clamp or cut wires or connectors or bad soldered wires.

#30 2 years ago

Tried using another new coil.
Each lug showed between 50 and 60v.
Continuity between all 3 lugs
Continuity between wires from switch.
Flipper never moved.
New wrinkle; fuse is blowing almost immediately.
Had trouble with fuse prior to rebuilding flipper. Could usually pay about 6 games before it would blow. Was hoping new switch and coil may resolve this.

Including pic of latest coil wired in.

Appreciate any direction provided toward getting this resolved. Thanks

C5BAD64D-6702-4652-9531-9E16C41FC096 (resized).jpeg

#31 2 years ago

Immediately when you flip, or when you start a game, or?

#33 2 years ago

Regarding timing of fuse blowing. I checked immediately after powering up machine. Still okay. While in test mode, went to first test that lets me activate right flipper. I’m assuming both upper and lower flippers should work at this point. Click right flipper a couple of times. Check fuse again and it’s blown. Lower right flipper continues to work since it’s on different fuse.

All other fuses have continuity. Is there any reason to change ALL FUSES as a precaution. Apologies if I’m displaying my lack of electrical engineering knowledge. Speaking of which, thanks for for pointing out my AC/DC mistake on my MM.

#34 2 years ago

Are you sure you've still got the power and ground wires connected to the right sides of the coils?

#35 2 years ago

1. Rewired to match pic of coil before I ever touched it. See pic
2. Put in new fuse. Checked continuity
3. Powered up pin.
4. Tested fuse. Still good.
5. Waited 5 minutes.
6. Tested fuse again. Still good
7. Put pin in test mode and went to self-test step that lets me use flippers.
8. Pressed right flipper once. No action on upper flipper. Just lower flipper.
9. Tested fuse again. Fuse blown.

Appreciate any advice on what action to take next. Again, thanks for your patience.

E41AC90C-31A7-4CC5-8959-E5BB06C8A117 (resized).jpeg

#36 2 years ago

What's the resistance between the two outer lugs while it's wired up?

#37 2 years ago

Unsold coil and test stripe wires to the ground. Put your MM on Ohmmeter or speaker and test stripe wires. Put one touch meter on one stripe wire and the other touch meter to a metal plate in the box who might be connected to the ground with yellow green wires...you might have 0 or no sound came from the MM

20180120_135327 (resized).jpg

20180120_135340 (resized).jpg

#39 2 years ago

Thanks. I have a hard copy of the manual with the schematics. I just don’t have the expertise to understand it.

#40 2 years ago

Don't underestimate you...you'll be proud of you when you understand something new and so...logical that it just show you where you go...and I'm pretty sure you might have to look at this at any time. Page 55 and 56 for your flipper just follow links that are only wires...
For now you he to check if any + wires (those who give the info lol) is not touching any - ground who can blow your fuses. The ground is where all are connected except separate ground like in these case what is the wire on the bottom flipper who got the same colour? Black green I think...thanks to the shematic

#41 1 year ago

Zacaj, resistance between two outer lugs is .3

#42 1 year ago

Benhurr, using speaker setting on MM between striped wire and ground bar with power off on machine, I got no beep.

Thanks.

#43 1 year ago
Quoted from BlakeBowden:

Zacaj, resistance between two outer lugs is .3

Is this with the red lead of the MM on the banded side of the diode or the non-banded? (test it on the banded side if not)

#44 1 year ago

Also try between black purple wire and green green (both soldered on coil) it may not beep

#45 1 year ago

You might do it unsoldered

#46 1 year ago

zacaj,

with machine off. Resistance between the two lugs on the banded side of the diode is .2. What's the purpose of this particular test? I'm trying to understand the process of diagnosing these types of issues.

#47 1 year ago

Benhurr,

No beep between the two striped wires. NOTE: My plan is to get things working right before I do any soldering. What is the purpose of testing the continuity between the each striped wire and ground and striped wire to striped wire? I'm trying to follow the logic of this process. Thanks

#48 1 year ago
Quoted from BlakeBowden:

zacaj,
with machine off. Resistance between the two lugs on the banded side of the diode is .2. What's the purpose of this particular test? I'm trying to understand the process of diagnosing these types of issues.

Sorry, typed that last post out in a hurry. To elaborate:

fuses blow because there's a short. Current is going straight from the 45V to ground with nothing in between (like a coil) to stop it. If the coil was bad and shorted internally, this would cause a short, and you could usually detect it by measuring the resistance of the coil. A reading of around 0.5 ohms or less is usually bad. Another problem could be if the diode was blown. Usually the diode's job is to keep voltage from going in the banded end and out the other. If the diode had failed and shorted internally, then the 45V attached to the banded end would just go straight through (bypassing the coil), and cause a short. Normally you can just use the diode test on your MM to verify if a diode is good, just like you can use the resistance reading to check if the coil is good, but in this case stuff gets weird because you've got a diode and a coil in parallel; they can affect each other's readings.

Now, your coil being shorted isn't too likely since it's new, but sometimes even new coils are bad. One thing that is common though is that, if you wire the coil in backwards, then the 45V will be connected to the non-banded side of the diode, and will be able to freely flow through it. So much current going through the diode will often blow the diode before it blows the fuse, so even if you realize your error and flip the wiring around, now your diode is shorted so you just keep blowing fuses.

Now, the way the resistance test works on your meter is that it sends some voltage out of the red lead, through whatever you've got it hooked to, and then it comes back in the black lead. So, if you try to measure the resistance of the coil, but you put your red lead on the non-banded side of the diode, then that test voltage will go straight through the diode (bypassing the coil), and you'll get a very low reading (like you did) even though everything could be fine. However, if you put the red lead on the banded side of the diode (and the black lead on the non-banded side), the voltage shouldn't be able to go through the diode, and you can usually get a better reading.

Even then, however, sometime you can get weird readings. The one 100% reliable way to test the coil is with the diode clipped off. At that point, if you measure the resistance across the outer lugs, you should get a reading of a few ohms (while the EOS switch is attached and closed) and 30+ ohms (if the EOS switch is detached or open).

While you've got the diode clipped off, it's a good opportunity to test the diode too. Usually, since I've already removed the diode, I just throw it away and attach a new one since it's sometime hard to clip them nicely and reattach them.

#49 1 year ago

Zacaj,

Thanks for explanation. Here’s my understanding (or misunderstanding) of my likely issue.
1. Power going to fuse should be reduced by the resistance in the coil and the diode.
2. In my case, there is a short because either my coil is bad or my diode is bad which blowing my fuse.
3. I would have to remove my diode and test the diode and coil separately to determine which of these components are causing my problem.
4. I may have already blown my diode if I wired the striped wires to my coil to the wrong lugs.

Questions
1. Is my description of the situation correct?
2. How hard is it to replace a diode? Do you solder it in?

Thanks for helping me understand this stuff.

#50 1 year ago
Quoted from BlakeBowden:

2. In my case, there is a short because either my coil is bad or my diode is bad which blowing my fuse.

99% of the time yes. There could be some other issue in the wiring but it's rare

Quoted from BlakeBowden:

2. How hard is it to replace a diode? Do you solder it in?

Just clip the old one off and solder a new on in where it was. You'll want a 1n4004 or 1n4007.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 399.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball LEDs
3,000 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Tulsa, OK
$ 279.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball LEDs
$ 79.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
3,200 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Renaissance, FLORIDA
From: $ 40.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 249.00
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
From: $ 20.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 42.00
There are 58 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside