(Topic ID: 294471)

Problem four players playmatic fantasy

By Lambecka

60 days ago


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#1 60 days ago

Who can help me with the following problem. Starting this pinball it resets scorereels , shoot ball in shooterlane but if push credit button again it not goes to player 2 etc, see picture.
As far as i can see player two three and four are controlled by J2,J3 and J4, , but how does that work..
When starting game see some movements of these coils, but trying to go for more players the do nothing
Anybody who can help me with this spanish machine?

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#2 60 days ago

I don't have a Fantasy schematic but this is from the New World schematic on IPDB.org which may be similar:
New World player relays (resized).jpg
After starting a game if you then press the Replay button again the P relay should fire and the Score Motor should run and the J2 relay shown above should fire for player 2. Pressing the Replay button again should fire J3 for player 3 and the final Replay button press should fire J4 for player 4.

Check if the P relay fires and whether the switch in red above closes.

/Mark

#3 58 days ago

Tested it , and found dat the P relais fired.Followed the wires from J2, J3 ans J4 back to the motor switch and found on the motorswitch for J2 the YE-MA wire loose from contact. Resolder it and problem solved.
Many thanks pointing me in the right direction and lucky that your scheme matches my Fantastic.
Can you please look for me the circuit that controls the ball playes?? Machine does not switch over to ball 2 etc,
Hope you can help again

Albert

#4 58 days ago
Quoted from Lambecka:

Machine does not switch over to ball 2

The first thing to check is whether the Balls Played step unit operates properly. With the game unplugged you should be able to push in the plunger on either solenoid and release it and have the step unit cleanly step up or back to the next position. This should work well in all 21 positions. If not you should clean it until it can step reliably when you activate it manually.

Once the Balls Played unit steps reliably when manually activated we can look for an electrical issue.

Here is a portion of the New World schematic. Fantasy may not be the same.
New World ball count (resized).jpg
The bottom portion of the schematic shows that the Balls Played unit has 21 positions. It also shows that each position fires one of the T1-T4 relays to determine which player is currently playing and accumulating points. Can all four players in your game score points, or just player 1? Does the Balls Played Unit advance when the ball drains?

The number of times the Balls Played unit advances when the ball drains is determined by the number of players. The top part of the schematic shows that when the ball drains the Ball Played unit can step 1-4 times. The Motor IMP A switch in the upper right corner generates 5 pulses when the Score Motor turns. One pulse always gets through the Motor 2B switch to advance the Balls Played unit one step to the next position. The other three paths (through switches on J2, J3 and J4) allow more pulses to get through and advance the Balls Played unit if appropriate. So for example on a 2 player game, the Balls Played unit should step just once (through the Motor 2B switch) when player 1 drains, but it should step 3 times (through the Motor 2B, J3 and J4 switches) when player 2 drains to return the Balls Played unit to a position where the T1 relay fires and player 1 is scoring.

#5 58 days ago

Manual operated the unit in all,positions and looks fine.
Problem is for example if start new game in a three balls game it does not make the correct number of steps, ball 1 and 2 goes fine, but after loosing tje ball second ball it switch to player 4

#6 58 days ago

See if you can determine when it works and when it doesn't. Does it work properly on a 1 player game? On a 2 player game? etc... When does it take the correct number of steps after a ball drain and when does it take too many steps?

#7 57 days ago

Difficult to see tendency, but for oneplayer game in 3 balls setting. Ball one and two goes ok and then it switches to player four. Loosing that bal it goes not in gameover mode but to bal 4.
Tendency in two three and four player game, every times goed to player four and not ending the game
First time working on playmatic, but giving me headache

#8 56 days ago

Try some experiments on a 5 ball game to see how that compares. Also listen for and count the number of steps the Balls Played unit takes each time the ball drains. When does it take extra steps? Or, does it take a single step that advances more than one position?

#9 56 days ago

During some tryouts found out the following. Took of the aprom and under the aprom is a switch called the through switch.
Starting game and manual operated this switch everytime when loosing the bal and pulled the switch down for a moment.
Bij doing that, first the bonusunit advanced by one step, and if i, keep this switch energized it the ball unit goes to ball two etc . And by doing this everytime manual game can be completed..
It seems to,be that as soon as the ball is fired to the shooterlane it hits the through switch just for ahalf a second, some times you see the bonus advance to first position, but sometimes not, also sometimes ballunit advance, but in most cases not.
For some reason this through switch causes the problem. Ofcourse cleaned and adjusted this switch but that did not help.
Need to find out if indeed this switch need to take care of the right movements of the ball play unit.

#10 54 days ago

How can i change the number of movementthat the ball played unit makes,
And what is the start position of the ballplayed unit?.
For some reason the number of movements are not correct, can you help?

#11 54 days ago

It's hard to say without a good copy of the correct schematic and a manual if there is one. If the online retailers don't have a copy there are several Fantasy owners listed on Pinside and on http://www.pinballowners.com. You might reach out to them to see if any can help with the game behavior or better yet a schematic.

Based on the New World schematic which is not clear in places, it seems that the through switch should fire the Y and Z relays which then allow the balls played unit to take the appropriate number of steps through the circuit shown above. The Y relay may wait for a bonus to count down first before firing and allowing the balls played to advance. Avoid a bonus for now if you can to simplify the troubleshooting.

At reset the balls played unit should return to the 1st (leftmost) position shown in the schematic in reply #4. When the ball is kicked to the shooter lane the trough switch should close to advance the balls played unit one step (to the right in the schematic) so that the T1 relay fires. Then it will be in player 1/ball 1 position (2nd from the left in the schematic).

To get much further you'd need to better characterize when the balls played unit takes the wrong number of steps and how many steps it takes when it's wrong.

#12 53 days ago

Ok thanks for your patience.
Will do a more detailed report about failure .
So,far your schematic follows the fantasy.
Will report

#13 53 days ago

Here my report and i think i have timing problem
The through switch in the fantasy has two functions. One switch for operating the BP unit and one switch for advance the bonus unit to position one, the game starts with already having the bonus point on 1.

Starting the machine and everything is resetting to zero, score motor turns and the BP unit goes to first position, stops and goed direct to position 2, (second point to left). As soon as it reach this position the ball is fired to shooter lane, while passing the through switch. The through switch energized the bonus unit to allow one step. The other switch of the through switch is doing nothing, because the BP unit is already in position during resetting.
Player one is lit and ball one is lit, ready to play.
As soon loosing ball 1 the ball again is fired to shooter lane, bonus advance one step, but nothing happen with BP unit.
Checked the two, contacts of througswitch, but they are ok. By manual operate the contact that need to operate the BP unit it simpel goes to player 1 and ball 2 etc etc.
So the contact of through switch that operates the BP unit only works as manual close it for few seconds. .
If i do this everytime can complete the game as it need to be.
Ok so, if the ball is fired to go to shooterlane, both switches are close by the ball, but for moving the BP unit to short and nothing happend. Sometimes the speed of the ball is little slow and operate the BP unit , but not long enough, so ends on wrong place wrong ball and wrong player.
Reason that the first ball is ok , is that the BP unit is already in correct position (2 from the left), so when passing the through switch nothing happend.
When passing ball 2 the rel Y and Z need to be energized long enough till the BP unit is in his correct position, but they only close part of a second .
As far as i can see on the board need the hold rel take care of this , but that one goes in relax position directly.

Hope you can follow me so far

Any suggestions?

#14 53 days ago

The fact that the Trough switch works if you hold it down longer is a good clue to what may be happening. Here are some more sections of the New World schematic:
New World ball count 2 (resized).jpg
I think this is how it should work...

When the Trough switch (right side, in red) closes it should immediately fire the Z relay. When the Z relay fires it closes the Z relay switch next to the Trough switch and fires the Y relay (left side in red) too. Once the Y relay fires it should close its own Y relay (or lock in) switch so that the Y relay is held active through the Score Motor 6C switch path (in red) until the Score Motor 6C switch opens.

When the V relay fires it should also start the Score Motor turning (not shown). As the Score Motor turns the IMP A (Impulse cam) Score Motor switch (in red, upper right) closes 5 times to send 5 pulses towards the "add balls played" solenoid. One of the pulses from the IMP A switch goes through the the Motor 2B switch (in red) and through the Y relay switch (in red) and gets to the "add balls played" solenoid either through the Z relay switch or through the other switch on the balls unit (not sure which). More pulses might get to the "add balls played" solenoid if the game needs to skip over some players. In a one player game for example three more pulses should get to the "add balls played" solenoid to skip over players 2, 3 and 4. The extra pulses will go through the J2, J3 and J4 switches respectively.

After the balls played unit has taken the correct number of steps (and the Score Motor is still turning) the Score Motor 6C switch opens to relax the V relay. The Score Motor should stop shortly after that. In other words the V relay needs to stay on for most of the Score Motor's 180 degree turn while the game sorts out how many steps the balls played unit should take.

If your V relay is relaxing as soon as the Trough switch opens it will open up the V relay switch in the path to the balls played unit too early and prevent most or all of the required pulses from getting through to the "add balls played" solenoid.

You can test this by manually closing the V relay with a stick or other insulator. It should stay activated until the Score Motor has completed most of its 180 degree turn. If it doesn't either the V relay switch or the Motor 6C switch isn't closing properly.

The motor chart at the bottom shows you where to find all of the Score Motor switches. The motor itself is on the right and the black bars represent the 8 cams of the Score Motor in order. The Motor 6C switch for example is in the switch stack on the #6 (or leftmost) cam, third switch up from the bottom in the stack. The numbers inside the boxes in the motor chart are the schematic locations of the switches which aren't as interesting in this situation.

#15 52 days ago

Some work to do, will keep you informed.
Very much appreciate your assistance

#16 51 days ago

In the meantime found an old copy of schematic fantasy, but still have the problem.
Checked the motor switches and all others as per your recommandation. Situation on this moment, first ball always ok, second ball goes to player four and third ball stays on player four, playing a one player game

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#17 51 days ago
Quoted from Lambecka:

In the meantime found an old copy of schematic fantasy

Please send a good scan of the schematic to IPDB.org if you can.

Quoted from Lambecka:

Checked the motor switches and all others

I don't know what you mean by "checked". Unless you've proven that they each conduct electricity when they should don't dismiss them.

Does the V relay behave as described in my last reply?

When the Balls Played unit takes the wrong number of steps does its advance solenoid fire once for each step taken (which would imply a circuit issue), or does the unit sometimes fail to step or step multiple steps each time the solenoid fires (which would imply a mechanical issue)?

If the Balls Played unit advance solenoid is firing the wrong number of times you need to trace through its circuit shown at the top of reply #14. Are the switches on the T and J relays working properly?

As the Balls Played unit steps through its various positions do the T1-T4 relays fire one at a time as shown in the circuit in reply #4? Each one represents the current player (T1 is player 1, T2 is player 2, etc.). Even if a player is being skipped its relay should fire briefly as the Balls Played unit steps over each position.

Do the J relays fire as you add more players (J2 - 2nd player playing, J3 3rd player playing, etc.)

#18 51 days ago

The schematic are al loose sheets on format A4, and try to,tape them together.
What i can do is making pictures .
For your second response, i need to do my home work again
Will let you know

#19 51 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Please send a good scan of the schematic to IPDB.org if you can.

I don't know what you mean by "checked". Unless you've proven that they each conduct electricity when they should don't dismiss them.
Does the V relay behave as described in my last reply?
When the Balls Played unit takes the wrong number of steps does its advance solenoid fire once for each step taken (which would imply a circuit issue), or does the unit sometimes fail to step or step multiple steps each time the solenoid fires (which would imply a mechanical issue)?
If the Balls Played unit advance solenoid is firing the wrong number of times you need to trace through its circuit shown at the top of reply #14. Are the switches on the T and J relays working properly?
As the Balls Played unit steps through its various positions do the T1-T4 relays fire one at a time as shown in the circuit in reply #4? Each one represents the current player (T1 is player 1, T2 is player 2, etc.). Even if a player is being skipped its relay should fire briefly as the Balls Played unit steps over each position.
Do the J relays fire as you add more players (J2 - 2nd player playing, J3 3rd player playing, etc.)

Forgot to tell you that i changed out the scoremotor before i start testing this machine. The old one was burned up. Don,t think that
position of the carrousel can be an issue

Ositio

1 month later
#20 11 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Please send a good scan of the schematic to IPDB.org if you can.

I don't know what you mean by "checked". Unless you've proven that they each conduct electricity when they should don't dismiss them.
Does the V relay behave as described in my last reply?
When the Balls Played unit takes the wrong number of steps does its advance solenoid fire once for each step taken (which would imply a circuit issue), or does the unit sometimes fail to step or step multiple steps each time the solenoid fires (which would imply a mechanical issue)?
If the Balls Played unit advance solenoid is firing the wrong number of times you need to trace through its circuit shown at the top of reply #14. Are the switches on the T and J relays working properly?
As the Balls Played unit steps through its various positions do the T1-T4 relays fire one at a time as shown in the circuit in reply #4? Each one represents the current player (T1 is player 1, T2 is player 2, etc.). Even if a player is being skipped its relay should fire briefly as the Balls Played unit steps over each position.
Do the J relays fire as you add more players (J2 - 2nd player playing, J3 3rd player playing, etc.)

After a time off , started again with this one.
Gone through a lot of problems, but on this moment one problem remains.

Problem as follow
Shooting the first ball no problem the ball shoots in the shooterlane, by hitting the through switch so the bonus unit advance one step.
Playing the first ball, making point and loosing the ball it shoots it back again in shouterlane ,over the through switch, but nothing happens and can play again with first ball on player one.
Found out that the time between shooting the ball direction shooterlane and hitting the through switch goes to quick, machine is not ready to follow up on contact from through switch.

Ok did the following, removed the aprom and played the first ball,as soon as i loose the ball picked up the ball just before it hits the through switch. Placed the ball in shooterlane and pushed manual the through switch. By doing this everything works fine
Repeated this for a complete game with fourplayers and everything runs ok.
Need to know how to change timing between ballshooter and through switch.
Hope you can help,again

#21 11 days ago

can you post more pictures of the schematic and the chart that says what the A-Z relays are?

on some games the ball should not kick to the shooter until the bonus has counted down. If the ball kicks before that, the ball counter unit may not step up.

#22 10 days ago

Hope this helps

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#23 10 days ago
Quoted from baldtwit:

can you post more pictures of the schematic and the chart that says what the A-Z relays are?
on some games the ball should not kick to the shooter until the bonus has counted down. If the ball kicks before that, the ball counter unit may not step up.

Checked but before it shoots the ball the bonus counted down to zero. But is shoots that quick that the scoremotor still runs a bit, so if the ball hits the through switch nothing happens. Again if i pick up the ball after shooting and then manual push the through switch the ball counter steps up and bonus unit steps up to position one.

#24 9 days ago

If the ball trough switch is doing the right thing, perhaps the Ball Return solenoid isn't firing at the right time. Where is this solenoid on the schematic and what drives it?
Fantasy solenoid chart (resized).jpg
Also a good schematic scan would be much more helpful.

#25 9 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

If the ball trough switch is doing the right thing, perhaps the Ball Return solenoid isn't firing at the right time. Where is this solenoid on the schematic and what drives it?
[quoted image]
Also a good schematic scan would be much more helpful.

Schematic is not complete , it are all loose sheets so very difficult to make complete scan hence the fotos i took.

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#26 9 days ago

I'm curious why there are two trough switches in the schematic above (highlighted in blue marker). Are they in the same place in the game or is one in the out hole and the other in the trough to the shooter lane?

I any event when the ball drains the Y and Z relays should both fire. One of them probably starts the score motor turning.
Fantasy ball return (resized).jpg
Once the score motor is turning and the Y and Z relays are active the "add balls played" solenoid (in the red box) should fire when the Score Motor 2C switch (red box) closes. Soon after that the "balls return" solenoid (red box) should fire when the Motor 4C switch (red box) closes. It sounds like these might be happening out of order.

If your score motor has a service jack, or jones plug that can cut power to the score motor, you could try draining the ball and then manually turning the score motor slowly so see if these two things happen at the right time.

#27 8 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I'm curious why there are two trough switches in the schematic above (highlighted in blue marker). Are they in the same place in the game or is one in the out hole and the other in the trough to the shooter lane?
I any event when the ball drains the Y and Z relays should both fire. One of them probably starts the score motor turning.
[quoted image]
Once the score motor is turning and the Y and Z relays are active the "add balls played" solenoid (in the red box) should fire when the Score Motor 2C switch (red box) closes. Soon after that the "balls return" solenoid (red box) should fire when the Motor 4C switch (red box) closes. It sounds like these might be happening out of order.
If your score motor has a service jack, or jones plug that can cut power to the score motor, you could try draining the ball and then manually turning the score motor slowly so see if these two things happen at the right time.

The schematic shows 3 through switches, see picture of the third one. There is only a switch through to the shooterlane. This switch performs two funtions if i manual operate this one , it advanced the bonusunit one step and also fires the ballplayed unit for th nesecarry steps
For me strange the extra switch om schematic.
There is n jones plug or service jack for the score motor.
More and more seems to be timing problem between the ballreturn solenoid and the through switch.
When starting this complete overhaul, changed out the score motor, because old one was burned up.
By removing this motor , the carousel need to be removed and is locked by set screw. Can it be that the position of the carrousel can cause a timing problem. There are no marks for start position, and i place it back the way i thought it was before.
If this van be a problem, how to,figure out what the correct position need to be?

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#28 8 days ago
Quoted from Lambecka:

There is n jones plug or service jack for the score motor.

That's surprising. Other Playmatic games of that era have one. Could you just block the motor switch in the red box with a piece paper?
Fantasy motor (resized).jpg
You could also find the two switches in question, M2C and M4C, and turn the motor by hand with the power off to see when they close relative to each other.

#29 8 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

That's surprising. Other Playmatic games of that era have one. Could you just block the motor switch in the red box with a piece paper?
[quoted image]
You could also find the two switches in question, M2C and M4C, and turn the motor by hand with the power off to see when they close relative to each other.

Ok, wil do that tomorrow,because of family life for the weekend. Need some assistance in finding the switches. On the photo you see the scoremotor and the numbering 1-4, starting with one on the left side under.
Not real familiar with this type of numbering, but for switch M1 C go to the number 1 and on number one four stack of switches mounted. Stack A,B,C,D?. Ok if that is right i can found C, but on C are more swiches. Which one do i need , or is it just try out which one is M1 C?

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#30 8 days ago

Interesting. According to photos on IPDB Playmatic used both Gottlieb style (vertical shaft) motors like the one above and Bally/Williams style (horizontal shaft) motors, apparently changing over in 1976:

Gottlieb style motors:
1974 Joker
1974 Harem
January 1976 Fantasy

Bally/Williams style motors:
June 1976 Fiesta
October 1976 New World
May 1977 Speak Easy
June 1977 Rio

Your schematic may have a Score Motor diagram showing the positions of various switches. If not, the Gottleb chart at https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-far-out-schematic-error#post-6159755 might help. The Gottlieb chart shows where the various switch stacks are around the motor, but it doesn't show where the switch is in the switch stack. You may need to rely on wire colors from the schematic to identify the specific switches.

Quoted from Lambecka:

When starting this complete overhaul, changed out the score motor, because old one was burned up.

When you disassembled the motor did any of the switch dogs (in the red box below) or anything else fall out? On Gottlieb motors the switch dogs can mount in two different positions and mounting it in the wrong position will definitely change the relative timing of the switch stacks. Playmatic apparently had not only two positions to mount the switch dogs, they had two switch dogs of different lengths doubling the possibilities.

Fantasy motor switch dog (resized).jpg
#31 7 days ago

When you disassembled the motor did any of the switch dogs (in the red box below) or anything else fall out? On Gottlieb motors the switch dogs can mount in two different positions and mounting it in the wrong position will definitely change the relative timing of the switch stacks. Playmatic apparently had not only two positions to mount the switch dogs, they had two switch dogs of different lengths doubling the possibilities.[quoted image]

Disassembled the motor very carefully when it was changed and took care that all switched stayed assembled on position. Old motor removed from underneath. These type of motor was very difficult to get, because of long spindle stick out to accept the carousel . Only difference was that the old one had a spindle round shape and the new one have spindel with flatshape on the o.d.
Checked again position switch dogs and switches, but looks ok.

Interesting. According to photos on IPDB Playmatic used both Gottlieb style (vertical shaft) motors like the one above and Bally/Williams style (horizontal shaft) motors, apparently changing over in 1976:
Gottlieb style motors:
1974 Joker
1974 Harem
January 1976 Fantasy
Bally/Williams style motors:
June 1976 Fiesta
October 1976 New World
May 1977 Speak Easy
June 1977 Rio
Your schematic may have a Score Motor diagram showing the positions of various switches. If not, the Gottleb chart at https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-far-out-schematic-error#post-6159755 might help. The Gottlieb chart shows where the various switch stacks are around the motor, but it doesn't show where the switch is in the switch stack. You may need to rely on wire colors from the schematic to identify the specific switches.

Found something on the schematic (see photo) that shows posion of switches ,but only give position they have on the schematic

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#32 7 days ago

Found something on the schematic for the position of the switches, but only gives position as where the are on the schematic

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#33 7 days ago

Did some additional test and see that M2 c fires first and after that M4c

#34 7 days ago
Quoted from Lambecka:

Did some additional test and see that M2 c fires first and after that M4c

Do the "add balls played" and "ball return" solenoids fire when their score motor switches close? Or do they fire at some other time? Refer to the schematic in reply #26.

#35 7 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Do the "add balls played" and "ball return" solenoids fire when their score motor switches close? Or do they fire at some other time? Refer to the schematic in reply #26.

Yes they both fire, but when the ball is shooting into the lane the ball returnshoots two times.
When it shoots is because closing motorswitch 4c and short after it shoots again by closing a switch from stack 2 C

#36 7 days ago
Quoted from Lambecka:

when the ball is shooting into the lane the ball returnshoots two times.

That's not right.

Quoted from Lambecka:

When it shoots is because closing motorswitch 4c and short after it shoots again by closing a switch from stack 2 C

I hope that's a typo because earlier you said that 2C fires before 4C. Either way I think you've identified the problem. It sounds like the ball return fires before the motor 4C switch closes. Whether it also fires with the motor 2C or some other motor switch it sounds like you have a short that you'll need to find.

If you're lucky there's some kind of obvious short on the score motor switches like a bent solder tab, solder blob, bare wires touching, bent switch leaf, etc. If not you'll need to study the schematic to figure out where else wires from the motor 4C and 2C switches might cross paths. Are they both on the same stack of relay switches somewhere? Do they both go through a jones plug? Etc.

#37 7 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

That's not right.

I hope that's a typo because earlier you said that 2C fires before 4C. Either way I think you've identified the problem. It sounds like the ball return fires before the motor 4C switch closes. Whether it also fires with the motor 2C or some other motor switch it sounds like you have a short that you'll need to find.
If you're lucky there's some kind of obvious short on the score motor switches like a bent solder tab, solder blob, bare wires touching, bent switch leaf, etc. If not you'll need to study the schematic to figure out where else wires from the motor 4C and 2C switches might cross paths. Are they both on the same stack of relay switches somewhere? Do they both go through a jones plug? Etc.

Yes was a typing error, already tried to isolate one of the switches and starting to getting better. At least now i know in what area i need to look at.
Ofcourse will let you know the outcome and thank you , especially for you patience and good advises.

Alberr

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