(Topic ID: 201840)

Problem after replacing PIA and adding NVram

By Robl45

6 years ago


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There are 93 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 6 years ago

So the traces are buzzing out now, but they buzzing to like completely different pins then what I believe the schematic is sayings. Like pin 40 should go to pin 15 j21 and its like pin 9. Pin 3 is going to pin 18 unless I"m completely misunderstanding the markings on these things.

I'm very concerned about the display not lighting up, before it was lighting up saying u41 failure or garbled characters, now its completely dead. It appears one of the high voltage power supply fuses has blown. It appears its 8a 250v. Are these available any place locally?

I did plug turn on the machine after the new socket was installed with all connectors and forgot to plug the connector in from the power supply to the mpu. Could have have caused the fuse to blow?

#52 6 years ago

anyone have any ideas why the traces aren't matching up to what I believe they should be?

#53 6 years ago

Guy who soldered it had a fuse for me for the 100 volt section. replaced that and now I have the same u41 failure code flashing on led, but also the left display is flashing basicallys 0's when ever the blanking light blinks.

#54 6 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

anyone have any ideas why the traces aren't matching up to what I believe they should be?

Are you counting the pins correctly on the PIA?

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#55 6 years ago

duplicate

#56 6 years ago

Yes, definitely on the U41 and I assume so on the J22 connector but they aren't matching up to what the diagram says they should be on J22.

#57 6 years ago

I would have to believe you are counting the pins wrong to J22. How about measuring the resistance from U41 to the yellow resistor networks?

#58 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I would have to believe you are counting the pins wrong to J22. How about measuring the resistance from U41 to the yellow resistor networks?

I apologize to whoever I stole this image from on the forum. Can someone tell me how the pins go on J22. I'm pretty sure I'm counting them right.

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#59 6 years ago

In your photo, pin 1 is in the lower left corner. Pin 2 is directly above it. Pin 3 is lower second from the left, etc.

Pin 25 is lower right corner.

#60 6 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

In your photo, pin 1 is in the lower left corner. Pin 2 is directly above it. Pin 3 is lower second from the left, etc.
Pin 25 is lower right corner.

ah okay, so I assumed that it went pin one to pin 13 and then pin 14 to 26 in each row. So if thats the case with j22. How come U41 goes 1 to 20 in one row and is completely different than this?

#61 6 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

ah okay, so I assumed that it went pin one to pin 13 and then pin 14 to 26 in each row. So if thats the case with j22. How come U41 goes 1 to 20 in one row and is completely different than this?

just cuz unfortunately. chips count their pins counterclockwise from the notch mark is the way to think of it. Also think of how a ribbon cable is wired physically in relation to how you would be counting the wires (it's flat).

There is some liberty as to pin counting of headers that manufacturers take. You will notice sometimes pin counts are not always in the same order to orientation of a locking channel. WMS went back and forth with this for a while as what is pin one when a locking channel header is used.

With that header block in question there is silk screen printing on the board. Since they call out two opposite corner's count, you can figure out the rest. Usually this is some kind of markings to help figure out pin one.

#62 6 years ago

okay, well with new info, pins seem to be tracing out correctly. I ordered the western digital chip from mouser so hopefully when it gets here, problem solved.

#63 6 years ago

I'm sorry but do you really think that the 10 other chips you have purchased, all from different manufacturers and different vendors are ALL faulty??

Please stop messing with this board right now before you destroy it beyond repair. Send it to someone who "might" still be prepared to take on the repair because it is plainly obvious that you really need to come to grips with your electronics skill level.

If you want to progress electronics, please do it the correct way, don't do it by destroying boards that are irreplaceable.

Flame away - I don't care if people can't handle the truth.

#64 6 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

I'm sorry but do you really think that the 10 other chips you have purchased, all from different manufacturers and different vendors are ALL faulty??
Please stop messing with this board right now before you destroy it beyond repair. Send it to someone who "might" still be prepared to take on the repair because it is plainly obvious that you really need to come to grips with your electronics skill level.
If you want to progress electronics, please do it the correct way, don't do it by destroying boards that are irreplaceable.
Flame away - I don't care if people can't handle the truth.

I had 2 other chips and I had to send them back to the vendor, so I currently have one chip here and it appears to be bad. Unfortunately I don't have a stack of them lying around to test another one.

#66 6 years ago
Quoted from supermoot:

three chips are not ten chips

Three is also not one original one! The chances of two additional chips being faulty are so remote.......

The software is reporting "bad PIA" - that only means it can't access the PIA NOT that the PIA is bad.

I suspect this "report" is being taken too seriously by the OP and that other options need to be explored BUT I hope the further different new chip cures the problem for him - he will make it to 10 new ones in no time at this rate.

#67 6 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

Three is also not one original one! The chances of two additional chips being faulty are so remote.......
The software is reporting "bad PIA" - that only means it can't access the PIA NOT that the PIA is bad.
I suspect this "report" is being taken too seriously by the OP and that other options need to be explored BUT I hope the further different new chip cures the problem for him - he will make it to 10 new ones in no time at this rate.

So maybe try being helpful, which traces would I check to confirm it can access the PIA?

#68 6 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

So maybe try being helpful, which traces would I check to confirm it can access the PIA?

I see at least two other posters who have offered you this advice in this very thread and also some writing comments that make it clear they are exasperated by your responses basically ignoring their advice. I picture them banging their heads against the wall when they read your responses to their comments.

So I will recap the advice that you have already been given by others:

With the power OFF and preferably the board on the work bench, using a multimeter (preferably set to 'beep' for continuity) grab the schematic and measure each and every trace that connects EVERY pin on the PIA socket to EVERY other place on the PCB. Sometimes this might be two, three or more connections to other places for each pin - check them ALL. Yes, this is a time consuming job and could take 30 minutes or more. That's one reason board repairs cost more than some expect.

If any one of the pins on this 40 pin chip isn't connected correctly, as the circuit was designed originally, the software will 'flag' the PIA as 'bad' because it can't access it so it could be ANY single pin from the PIA that causes the exact same response from the program EVEN THOUGH there may not be a single thing wrong with the part.

This is what any good tech would do in a situation like this because it's a well known issue with most boards from machines of this era.

If you don't know what is meant by this method then you most certainly should not be playing around with this board that is delicate and very easily damaged. Changing sockets, for example, often causes many more problems than it resolves.

Best of luck with it.

#69 6 years ago

Maybe I am the retard in the room, but the two resistor banks src2 and src3 are wrong, they are not correct and the originals are a resistor network that uses both a ground and 5 volts as a pullup. those red ones are missing pin 1 which is the 5 volts...... so if the resistor networks were soldered in backwards then you are pulling the line low. the othe way well who know those sips could be discrete resistor or a share a common but in any case wrong, and src2 would affect the displays

Edit:

The schematic shows src2 and src3 as custom 470pf / 4.7k resistors packs hooked up to ground pin 10 and 5V pin 1 the cap is most likely connected to ground and the 4.7k resistor is a pullup to 5v and thse red one are not right. pullup resistors are the important part.

#70 6 years ago

No, you certainly are NOT the retard in the room. LOL.

Someone did a bad sub by installing those SIP resistors in the wrong direction. Perhaps an unwanted pull down (or joining adjoining pins if all separate resistors as you stated could be the case) would probably cause a PIA port register test to fail.

I know the RC networks are hard to get but at least know what you are doing if you are going to install a sub (or attempt component level board repair).

#71 6 years ago
Quoted from ibjeepin:

Maybe I am the retard in the room, but the two resistor banks src2 and src3 are wrong, they are not correct and the originals are a resistor network that uses both a ground and 5 volts as a pullup. those red ones are missing pin 1 which is the 5 volts...... so if the resistor networks were soldered in backwards then you are pulling the line low. the othe way well who know those sips could be discrete resistor or a share a common but in any case wrong, and src2 would affect the displays
Edit:
The schematic shows src2 and src3 as custom 470pf / 4.7k resistors packs hooked up to ground pin 10 and 5V pin 1 the cap is most likely connected to ground and the 4.7k resistor is a pullup to 5v and thse red one are not right. pullup resistors are the important part.

good eye

#72 6 years ago

The pic that the OP used is not his board as I saw this pic in another thread. He even said that he stole it. But good eye.

#73 6 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

The pic that the OP used is not his board as I saw this pic in another thread. He even said that he stole it. But good eye.

Yes, my board doesn't look like that, that picture was just to figure out if I was wrong about the pins and I was on J22.

#74 6 years ago

My post #29 still has some unresolved battery corrosion that needs to be dealt with on the SRC parts that you can see pretty easily in the picture that I zoomed in on.

Quoted from PinballManiac40:It is good you posted a picture of the board above the battery holder. When zooming in on it, you can see some traces that do need attention and 3 resistor networks at the very least that need to be replaced as well as the traces sanded down and the neutralized. This is in addition to the issue you are having with the IC socket.

Also in barakandl's post #16 shows a possible damaged trace that needs to be retested from the pin of the IC, not from the IC socket pin to the SRC and to the J22 pin.

#75 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

My post #29 still has some unresolved battery corrosion that needs to be dealt with on the SRC parts that you can see pretty easily in the picture that I zoomed in on.

Also in barakandl's post #16 shows a possible damaged trace that needs to be retested from the pin of the IC, not from the IC socket pin to the SRC and to the J22 pin.

Yeah that was my first thought but I missed that the pics were not his I would use the schematic and trace all the line from J22 to the pia. It may be a broken trace. I have seen this myself. Simplest is a multimeter. Easiest. If thats not it then trace all the J22 pins back to their source for continuity.

Anytime I fix a board thats been reworked and is still having troubles I will determint the reworked parts and trace all the lines to where they need to go. It will rule out traces at that point, then you can focus on other items where the problem might exist. The ribbon cable for example.

EVERY MALE OUT THERE should have a multimeter from Harborfreight for free with their Super Coupon events from time to time I have several, so they are everywhere like cockroaches. They do the trick for almost everything. I have much more expensive ones but they are fluke and HP units that sit on my bench but still do the same thing.

#76 6 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

I apologize to whoever I stole this image from on the forum. Can someone tell me how the pins go on J22. I'm pretty sure I'm counting them right.

Others have responded, general rule of thumb is the red marker on the flat ribbon is pin 1.

#77 6 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

Well thats all greek to me. But the person who did a favor doing the soldering I sent it to him and maybe he understands it. I see that it appears that it eventually ends at the specific letters on the display, so if I figure out which letters aren't displaying properly, that would be the traces that have the issue assuming its not the chip?
BTW, the NVRAM I got from you works perfect.

OK based on the fact the display PIA was replaced and now you hgave a garbled display I would also agree with everyone here its most likely one or more broken traces.

Whay did you replace the PIA in the first place? What was the issue? Garbled Screen?

#78 6 years ago
Quoted from ibjeepin:

OK based on the fact the display PIA was replaced and now you hgave a garbled display I would also agree with everyone here its most likely one or more broken traces.
Whay did you replace the PIA in the first place? What was the issue? Garbled Screen?

Honestly, nothing was wrong with it, it worked perfectly fine, but there was a slight bit of corrosion on one or two of the pins on the U41 and I was told I should fix it so I did. Believe me, if I could go back in time, I would have just left it alone and not said "I do" either

#79 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

My post #29 still has some unresolved battery corrosion that needs to be dealt with on the SRC parts that you can see pretty easily in the picture that I zoomed in on.

Also in barakandl's post #16 shows a possible damaged trace that needs to be retested from the pin of the IC, not from the IC socket pin to the SRC and to the J22 pin.

Thats a problem with this thread, Post 16 is not my board, someone else posted in here as well.

#80 6 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

Honestly, nothing was wrong with it, it worked perfectly fine, but there was a slight bit of corrosion on one or two of the pins on the U41 and I was told I should fix it so I did. Believe me, if I could go back in time, I would have just left it alone and not said "I do" either

If it was working fine before you did board work then you probably messed up a trace and it isn't a chip issue.

-1
#81 6 years ago

So new chip is in, same error message. Clearly something got messed up in the soldering job. I will try to check the traces again before seeing if I can get someone to fix it. I'm trying to find someone local and unfortunately its not that easy. So just to make sure I"m doing it right, when I check the traces. Should the board be unplugged and what about the nvram, do I need to take that out as well?

#82 6 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

So new chip is in, same error message. Clearly something got messed up in the soldering job. I will try to check the traces again before seeing if I can get someone to fix it. I'm trying to find someone local and unfortunately its not that easy. So just to make sure I"m doing it right, when I check the traces. Should the board be unplugged and what about the nvram, do I need to take that out as well?

What you are doing is measuring the continuity of the PCB traces. These are just basically wires joining "point A to point B". In the picture below (randomly found on the net) you can see the traces - just think of these as tiny wires.

Pull the board out of the machine - remove any plugged in chips in the area you are concerned with, get the schematic (wiring diagram of your board) and start at pin one of the chip in question. See what it connects to according to the schematic, identify those two points and measure between them with a meter to ensure that they are indeed connected by the PCB trace.

It takes time but if you go at it methodically, perhaps tick off each pin as "good" with a pencil as you go and you will get it done.

soundcpu6 (resized).jpgsoundcpu6 (resized).jpg

#83 6 years ago

I am up to pin 23, all check out, will finish the rest hopefully tomorrow.

Quoted from Homepin:

What you are doing is measuring the continuity of the PCB traces. These are just basically wires joining "point A to point B". In the picture below (randomly found on the net) you can see the traces - just think of these as tiny wires.
Pull the board out of the machine - remove any plugged in chips in the area you are concerned with, get the schematic (wiring diagram of your board) and start at pin one of the chip in question. See what it connects to according to the schematic, identify those two points and measure between them with a meter to ensure that they are indeed connected by the PCB trace.
It takes time but if you go at it methodically, perhaps tick off each pin as "good" with a pencil as you go and you will get it done.

#84 6 years ago

Got through 27 now. 24 is definitely not working. do I have to jumper every place it goes to?

EDIT: Got through all of them, definately pin 24.

#85 6 years ago

Think of the trace as a chain. It goes from one item to another as it works it's way across the board.

Make a list of every IC and pin it is supposed to be connected to. Then check those connections in relationship to each other. You should find there is only 1 break and therefore only one jumper should be necessary.

#86 6 years ago

so I looked and the pia pins that are supposed to connect are fine and the u14 I believe it is connects fine to the other pia's. So I just need to run a jump wire from pin 24 on u41 to one of the other pias correct?

Unfortunately while that is within my skill level the only iron i have right now is no where near small enough. Hopefully the person that has been helping me can get this jumpered soon. Tentatively Friday and this should be good to go.

#87 6 years ago

Don't ignore the battery corrosion above the battery pack area that still needs to be dealt with.

#88 6 years ago

Sounds like the guy who did the work for you may have lifted a solder pad during the install. He should be able to solder in a jumper wire to correct this and the game should work. I agree with the poster above that the battery corrosion should be addressed and repaired properly or you may be going through this issue in the future, but with much more work required than installing 1 jumper wire.

#89 6 years ago

Send the board to a true professional and have it done right and be done. Chris Hibler is great.

#90 6 years ago

jumper wire added, it works now. I was nervous at first when I started it up as the left display was scrambled but I pushed down a little on the pia and now its all good.

It does seem to be humming more than it did before. Anyone have ideas on that, all screws are tight on the board.

#91 6 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

jumper wire added, it works now. I was nervous at first when I started it up as the left display was scrambled but I pushed down a little on the pia and now its all good.
It does seem to be humming more than it did before. Anyone have ideas on that, all screws are tight on the board.

Post #6 in this thread had the solution, if only you listened to it and the various others that said the same thing instead of dismissing others and trying to throw more parts at it.

#92 6 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

Post #6 in this thread had the solution, if only you listened to it and the various others that said the same thing instead of dismissing others and trying to throw more parts at it.

Honestly it was really only one part being the western digital pia chip and I wanted that anyway as I prefer the new source and they were out of stock at the time. plus I needed a fuse anyway.

#93 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Don't ignore the battery corrosion above the battery pack area that still needs to be dealt with.

And what about this corrosion?

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