I agree with this starting with transformers where the game has actual playability differences.

Wouldn't this start with IM or BDK?

There were no gameplay changes with those. Adding a plaque and some chrome doesn't cut it as a new game. Adding user controlled playfield does. I guess it could start with tron although arguably its the same play.

Transformers and acdc do add enough to deliver a totally different game play flow.

wasn't IM missing magnets and BDK missing all kinds of stuff?
Im talking about the zizzle versions.

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=5652

http://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?any=Batman&sortby=name&search=Search+Database&searchtype=quick#5583

Rolling stones le has those skill posts

I've played both the LE and the pro quite a bit. They play the same. That daft punk mode is extremely hard to get to and none of us ever saw it anyway. It definitely would warrant a whole separate rating from me.

JMHO

They are the essentially the same game regardless of LE status. Rate it for which ever you are more familiar with and then use the comments to describe the differences if you like

I think TAF and TAFG are seperate so I guess there is a precedent, but I think that is kind of silly also.

The difference between tron pro and le is night and day for me. That might be purely psychological but there are gameplay differences as far as modes go.

It will take alot of work I am sure but I think it is a good idea.

As markmon stated TFLE had gameplay differences. Future games like ACDC and others look to be following suit.

Robin has stated previously that he is working on this. There is a fair amount of work involved, so it will take some time to implement.

Absolutely, different games, different play, different art..........DIFFERENT PRICE

Average price will really be skewed won't it

This is in the works.

If someone could post a list of all games and their "special editions" that would be a great help!

Look at the AC/DC ratings...totally skewed on LE reviews vs pro reviews. There must be a split.

IM, BDK, RS, Tron, AC/DC,TF, Avatar, are the Stern games that need separate reviews.

Pro , Premium & LE's !! 3

I have been thinking about this for a while now. There are several roads I can take with this. Bear with me as I'm thinking out loud here:

Option 1....

In options 1 I would add a new database table that holds game "models". For example, for Tron it would hold "Pro" and "LE". For Transformers it would hold "Pro", "Premium", "Autobot", "Decepticon".

Then we would need to add a "model" selector dropdown box to the following sections of the website:

- ratings (what model are you rating?)
- collection/wishlist (which model do you have/want?)
- market (which game model are you selling?)
- archive (new section for listing differences per model)
- archive : gallery (ability to tag a photo to belong to a specific model)
- pinball map : where to play (which model of the game does a location have)

Special care is then needed for the Top 100:

- The main rating for a game should be calculated regardless of which model people are rating - this also determines top 100 ranking
- A game that has multiple models will show the averages per model
- Rating reviews will show what models is being reviewed.

Big downside is that people can only rate one model of a game - this is a technical limitation of the ratings system.

... Looking at all of this, this is one heck of a job to build.

Maybe we should think about option 2....

Option 2

Simply create separate archive entries for each game model. This is how IPDB has done it. This automatically makes everything on the site work:

- ratings (each model has its own ratings page. People can rate multiple models of a game.)
- collection/wishlist (you can only have Tron LE in your wishlist, or you can wishlist them both)
- market (which game model are you selling)
- archive (we could list differences per model in the Wiki section of the game)
- archive : gallery (each models has its own gallery)
- pinball map : where to play (simply choose the right model)

Downsides:
- Games will need their details filled in multiple times (e.g. the design team)
- Top 100 will have, for example, two TRONs in it. Tron Pro ranked #34 and Tron LE ranked #18. Is this a downside or an advantage having two entries for the same game?

I could technically average ratings for various models into one rating, you know, to make it appear in the Top 100 only once, but this is not easy.

To summarize
Are you still reading these ramblings?

The more I think about it, the more I lean towards option 2. There are other advantages. We will get proper backglass images showing in our collection, reflecting the model we own.

The only thing I'm unsure of is having multiple models of a game in the Top 100. The way the new Stern games are going, we could have 4 AC/DC games in the Top 100.

Option 2 is definitely a 3-hour solution as I only need to create entries for these games that have one or more models. Option 1 is more likely to be a 2 months solution.

What do you think?

That's Alot of Work on Yr Part just so we can Add to Our collection ( which Version of a certain Pin we Own ) Yr rite about AC/DC ,, 4 Huh .. Not my call . Do as you Please Robin !!

Option 2 is much better. Option 1 will stir up the database too much without adding any real value and probable unnecessary complicate the user interface.

One game, one top 100 entry, I'd say. You don't want the top 100 to be clouded with what is basically 4 times the same machine. I'd say, take the average, that seems fair. And then it's up to Stern (or JJP) to make sure ALL of the versions are worthy of a good spot on the list, right?

On a technical note, we could relatively easily link the various machines in the machines table using a extra column or join table linking the different models by their key value. I think this way we might be able to change the code to calculate the average on all of the models for a machine without complicating things too much.

That's what I was thinking. Have all models in a join table. That way each model archive page can also have links to "other models of the game".

We're gonna need some volunteers to help fill the machine entries that I will add. I hope to be able to add the games tonight.

The big question that remains: what warrants a separate archive entry for a game? Does the Costco version of Batman Dark Knight get an archive entry? Does Iron Man LE get a separate archive entry?

Do we need 4 AC/DC entries or just 2? Stern lists only 2, the pro and the LE/premium: http://www.sternpinball.com/Games.aspx

If you are going to do this,Pro and LE versions would be better than multiple LE versions.By the way I am for keeping the way it is now.I will support anything you do,as this site has to be a LOT of work!

I think 2. The gameplay on premium and LE is the same. We don't need to split out different art packages.

+1 .. I agree !

I vote for TAF and TAFG only taking up one Top 100 position as well.

I like option 2, it does need the double duty of designer details, but there could be a situation where those details are different. There are different designers for the gottleib super mario pins, which I found out just yesterday!

This hasn't happened with Stern YET but it could potentially happen.

Totally agree. Only 2 needed Pro & Premium. Maybe have an area where you can write in that you own a combo, or special art package LE.

Tom.

Agree

Option 2 with a limit of two versions of each game: standard and LE.

Option 2 for me as well. Standard and LE no need to have 4 or 5 different ones for the crazy amount of versions being put out there. I would even say don't split it if there isn't a decent amount of difference (non cosmetic) between the two versions as pinballslave mentioned.

I have just added the first "new" ames to the archive, they are:

AC/DC Premium/LE - http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/ac-dc-(le)
TRON LE - http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/tron-(le)
Transformers Premium/LE - http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/transformers-(le)
Avatar LE - http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/avatar-(le)

I have copied all details from the existing entry to the new entry.

I have made a first step to move some LE ratings (the ones that mention rating the LE in their reviews). Later today, I hope to add a function so you can do this yourself.

Thanks!

Note: I still need to re-run the Top 100 weekly job to update counters and averages.

Nope, for now all version will appears as separate machines in the Top 100.

Grouping machine scores together required additional coding from my end, so I'm gonna see what happens first before investing a lot of time for just these 4 games (well 7 if you count Addams Family Gold, Black Knight LE and Eight Ball Deluxe LE which were already in the database).

I have now also added a little box that clarifies when there are multiple editions of a game:

multiple-versions.jpg

Thanks, I added version info for "Fire!", but what do you mean with Centaur? Centaur and Centaur II are different games, right?

FYI, I have also added LOTR:LE to the archive!

I think this is a really great idea...IMO AC/DC pro is not a top 50 game...but the Premium is!

One thing though, can we have Spider-Man Black-Suited LE ? Or does that not qualify? (though I dont dont see why it wouldnt)

Great job at present though

Good question. If the idea is that a game must have changes other than cosmetic ones, then Spider-Man black does not qualify. It does not offer different gameplay or modes. Although I can imagine you want to have your Pinside collection reflect that you have the Black one!

Okay then Robin, heres your new splash images:

TF Pro, TF LE, ACDC Premium, LOTR LE, Tron LE, Avatar LE

Transformers.jpg Transformers_LE.jpg acdc_premium.jpg LOTR_LE.jpg Tron_legacy_LE.jpg Avatar_LE.jpg