Pro LE archive split?

Started 2 years ago by pinballslave in forum Pinside > Website.


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Pro LE archive split?

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By pinballslave

2 years ago

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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Medieval_Gofers

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2 years, 10 months ago

I did a quick search and couldn't find this topic... I'm sure it's been mentioned before though... anyway, bearing in mind the game differences between the pro and LE versions of the recent Sterns (which are greater than the differences between other actually different games in some cases!!) I think it would make sense to have a different page for the pro and LEs... The playfield layout is different, the games rules, the achievable scores, making the ratings and high-scores applicable to the specific game... I notice in the ratings that most people mention which game they're rating, so it might not be to hard to do it retrospectively to a degree... I'm not sure of the full list of games that are different enough to warrent this, but as a start, Tron, Transformers and AC/DC would definitely be applicable... I see the IPDB split them up...

I wouldn't go silly and have a page for each of the 4 Transformers versions or the various AC/DCs though, just where there's a different playfield and rule set...

Thoughts?

Hell, why not add a poll...


2 years, 10 months ago

I agree with this starting with Transformers where the game has actual playability differences.


2 years, 10 months ago

Wouldn't this start with IM or BDK?


2 years, 10 months ago
TaylorVA said:

Wouldn't this start with IM or BDK?

There were no gameplay changes with those. Adding a plaque and some chrome doesn't cut it as a new game. Adding user controlled playfield does. I guess it could start with tron although arguably its the same play.

Transformers and acdc do add enough to deliver a totally different game play flow.


2 years, 10 months ago

wasn't IM missing magnets and BDK missing all kinds of stuff?
Im talking about the zizzle versions.


2 years, 10 months ago
markmon said:

I guess it could start with tron although arguably its the same play.

Tron has Daft Punk multiball and apparently another 'mode' over the pro... although I don't know what this extra mode adds to the game having only played the LE...

But there are also, for the ratings, things like 'game lighting' that would certainly be massively different for the TRON LE... This would, I imagine, split the LE from the Pro quite significantly on its own...!! And the pretty silver linings around the inserts would give the LE a boost over the pro on playfield artwork...


2 years, 10 months ago

Rolling Stones le has those skill posts


2 years, 10 months ago
pinballslave said:

markmon said:I guess it could start with tron although arguably its the same play.

Tron has Daft Punk multiball and apparently another 'mode' over the pro... although I don't know what this extra mode adds to the game having only played the LE...
But there are also, for the ratings, things like 'game lighting' that would certainly be massively different for the TRON LE... This would, I imagine, split the LE from the Pro quite significantly on its own...!! And the pretty silver linings around the inserts would give the LE a boost over the pro on playfield artwork...

I've played both the LE and the pro quite a bit. They play the same. That daft punk mode is extremely hard to get to and none of us ever saw it anyway. It definitely would warrant a whole separate rating from me.


2 years, 10 months ago
markmon said:

I've played both the LE and the pro quite a bit. They play the same. That daft punk mode is extremely hard to get to and none of us ever saw it anyway. It definitely would warrant a whole separate rating from me.

I certainly can't dispute this, having only played the LE, but don't forget that the rating system is not just on game-play, it's on things like lighting, playfield art, toys too... and the LE wins on these... especially on the lighting of course! And when you add in 'fun' etc, then you could also argue that the LE is more fun to play with it's DTs and light show... so that would boost it's rating too... I think the LE would get much higher in the charts than the pro due to it's looks as opposed to its gameplay...

Post edited by pinballslave : Afterthought


2 years, 10 months ago

78% say aye at the moment... Robin, is this a realisticly doable thing, or am I stirring trouble?


2 years, 10 months ago

JMHO

They are the essentially the same game regardless of LE status. Rate it for which ever you are more familiar with and then use the comments to describe the differences if you like

I think TAF and TAFG are seperate so I guess there is a precedent, but I think that is kind of silly also.


2 years, 10 months ago

There's also Fire! and Fire! Champagne, Eight Ball Deluxe and EBD Ltd edition, Centaur and Centaur II and probably many others where the difference is purely cosmetic, but which have their own archive pages and hence ratings and high-score charts... yet games with different rules and playfield layouts are lumped together...


2 years, 10 months ago

The difference between tron pro and le is night and day for me. That might be purely psychological but there are gameplay differences as far as modes go.


2 years, 10 months ago
davewtf said:

The difference between tron pro and le is night and day for me.

That would be a fibre-optic cable lit day I assume


2 years, 10 months ago

Bump... Robin?


2 years, 10 months ago

It will take alot of work I am sure but I think it is a good idea.

As markmon stated TFLE had gameplay differences. Future games like ACDC and others look to be following suit.


2 years, 10 months ago

Robin has stated previously that he is working on this. There is a fair amount of work involved, so it will take some time to implement.


2 years, 10 months ago

Absolutely, different games, different play, different art..........DIFFERENT PRICE

Average price will really be skewed won't it


2 years, 10 months ago

This is in the works.

If someone could post a list of all games and their "special editions" that would be a great help!


2 years, 10 months ago

I think as a first 'obvious' list, the following should be split:

Tron (mainly because of the looks of the LE effecting the various appearance based ratings, but also the slight gameplay changes).
TF (pf toys and gameplay).
AC/DC Additional p/f effecting gameplay...
Any future Stern games probably...


2 years, 9 months ago

Look at the AC/DC ratings...totally skewed on LE reviews vs pro reviews. There must be a split.


2 years, 9 months ago

IM, BDK, RS, Tron, AC/DC,TF, Avatar, are the Stern games that need separate reviews.


2 years, 9 months ago
rommy said:

Look at the AC/DC ratings...totally skewed on LE reviews vs pro reviews. There must be a split.

Pro , Premium & LE's !! 3


2 years, 9 months ago

I have been thinking about this for a while now. There are several roads I can take with this. Bear with me as I'm thinking out loud here:

Option 1....

In options 1 I would add a new database table that holds game "models". For example, for Tron it would hold "Pro" and "LE". For Transformers it would hold "Pro", "Premium", "Autobot", "Decepticon".

Then we would need to add a "model" selector dropdown box to the following sections of the website:

- ratings (what model are you rating?)
- collection/wishlist (which model do you have/want?)
- market (which game model are you selling?)
- archive (new section for listing differences per model)
- archive : gallery (ability to tag a photo to belong to a specific model)
- pinball map : where to play (which model of the game does a location have)

Special care is then needed for the Top 100:

- The main rating for a game should be calculated regardless of which model people are rating - this also determines top 100 ranking
- A game that has multiple models will show the averages per model
- Rating reviews will show what models is being reviewed.

Big downside is that people can only rate one model of a game - this is a technical limitation of the ratings system.

... Looking at all of this, this is one heck of a job to build.

Maybe we should think about option 2....

Option 2

Simply create separate archive entries for each game model. This is how IPDB has done it. This automatically makes everything on the site work:

- ratings (each model has its own ratings page. People can rate multiple models of a game.)
- collection/wishlist (you can only have TRON LE in your wishlist, or you can wishlist them both)
- market (which game model are you selling)
- archive (we could list differences per model in the Wiki section of the game)
- archive : gallery (each models has its own gallery)
- pinball map : where to play (simply choose the right model)

Downsides:
- Games will need their details filled in multiple times (e.g. the design team)
- Top 100 will have, for example, two TRONs in it. Tron Pro ranked #34 and TRON LE ranked #18. Is this a downside or an advantage having two entries for the same game?

I could technically average ratings for various models into one rating, you know, to make it appear in the Top 100 only once, but this is not easy.

To summarize
Are you still reading these ramblings?

The more I think about it, the more I lean towards option 2. There are other advantages. We will get proper backglass images showing in our collection, reflecting the model we own.

The only thing I'm unsure of is having multiple models of a game in the Top 100. The way the new Stern games are going, we could have 4 AC/DC games in the Top 100.

Option 2 is definitely a 3-hour solution as I only need to create entries for these games that have one or more models. Option 1 is more likely to be a 2 months solution.

What do you think?


2 years, 9 months ago

That's Alot of Work on Yr Part just so we can Add to Our collection ( which Version of a certain Pin we Own ) Yr rite about AC/DC ,, 4 Huh .. Not my call . Do as you Please Robin !!


2 years, 9 months ago
robin said:

The more I think about it, the more I lean towards option 2. There are other advantages. We will get proper backglass images showing in our collection, reflecting the model we own.

Option 2 is much better. Option 1 will stir up the database too much without adding any real value and probable unnecessary complicate the user interface.

robin said:

The only thing I'm unsure of is having multiple models of a game in the Top 100. The way the new Stern games are going, we could have 4 AC/DC games in the Top 100.

One game, one top 100 entry, I'd say. You don't want the top 100 to be clouded with what is basically 4 times the same machine. I'd say, take the average, that seems fair. And then it's up to Stern (or JJP) to make sure ALL of the versions are worthy of a good spot on the list, right?

On a technical note, we could relatively easily link the various machines in the machines table using a extra column or join table linking the different models by their key value. I think this way we might be able to change the code to calculate the average on all of the models for a machine without complicating things too much.


2 years, 9 months ago
Martijn said:

On a technical note, we could relatively easily link the various machines in the machines table using a extra column or join table linking the different models by their key value.

That's what I was thinking. Have all models in a join table. That way each model archive page can also have links to "other models of the game".

We're gonna need some volunteers to help fill the machine entries that I will add. I hope to be able to add the games tonight.

The big question that remains: what warrants a separate archive entry for a game? Does the Costco version of Batman Dark Knight get an archive entry? Does Iron Man LE get a separate archive entry?

Do we need 4 AC/DC entries or just 2? Stern lists only 2, the pro and the LE/premium: http://www.sternpinball.com/Games.aspx


2 years, 9 months ago
robin said:

Stern lists only 2, the pro and the LE/premium:

If you are going to do this,Pro and LE versions would be better than multiple LE versions.By the way I am for keeping the way it is now.I will support anything you do,as this site has to be a LOT of work!


2 years, 9 months ago
robin said:

Do we need 4 AC/DC entries or just 2? Stern lists only 2, the pro and the LE/premium:

I think 2. The gameplay on premium and LE is the same. We don't need to split out different art packages.


2 years, 9 months ago
rommy said:

robin said:Do we need 4 AC/DC entries or just 2? Stern lists only 2, the pro and the LE/premium:
I think 2. The gameplay on premium and LE is the same. We don't need to split out different art packages.

+1 .. I agree !


2 years, 9 months ago
Whysnow said:

I think TAF and TAFG are seperate so I guess there is a precedent, but I think that is kind of silly also.

I vote for TAF and TAFG only taking up one Top 100 position as well.


2 years, 9 months ago

I like option 2, it does need the double duty of designer details, but there could be a situation where those details are different. There are different designers for the gottleib super mario pins, which I found out just yesterday!

This hasn't happened with Stern YET but it could potentially happen.


2 years, 9 months ago
BLACK_ROSE said:

rommy said:

robin said:Do we need 4 AC/DC entries or just 2? Stern lists only 2, the pro and the LE/premium:
I think 2. The gameplay on premium and LE is the same. We don't need to split out different art packages.
+1 .. I agree !

Totally agree. Only 2 needed Pro & Premium. Maybe have an area where you can write in that you own a combo, or special art package LE.

Tom.


2 years, 9 months ago
TomGWI said:

BLACK_ROSE said:rommy said:
robin said:Do we need 4 AC/DC entries or just 2? Stern lists only 2, the pro and the LE/premium:
I think 2. The gameplay on premium and LE is the same. We don't need to split out different art packages.
+1 .. I agree !
Totally agree. Only 2 needed Pro & Premium. Maybe have an area where you can write in that you own a combo, or special art package LE.
Tom.

Agree


2 years, 9 months ago

Option 2 is certainly my prefered choice also... I'd even go as far as to say let them battle it out with each other in the charts also... personally I think it would be interesting to see how, for example, TF pro compared to TF LE in the charts... As someone said already, this is how it is for TAF and TAF Gold, so why not... there are way more differences between the current Stern releases, so to me it would make sense to make the charts transparent in showing how the different models compare with each other...

Re what games to split out, I'd say a split is only worthy if there are significant differences... maybe to make this easy to define, I'd say that this should be when the playfields are not interchangable between the Pro and the LE... i.e. not just eye candy... I'm not sure what is the full scope of games this would include, but I think it would exclude TAF and TAF Gold ;-)... But would include Tron, TF and AC/DC. I'd say just have one page for the Pro and one page for the various LE editions... WOZ would therefore have just one page...


2 years, 9 months ago

Option 2 with a limit of two versions of each game: standard and LE.


2 years, 9 months ago

Option 2 for me as well. Standard and LE no need to have 4 or 5 different ones for the crazy amount of versions being put out there. I would even say don't split it if there isn't a decent amount of difference (non cosmetic) between the two versions as pinballslave mentioned.


2 years, 9 months ago

I have just added the first "new" ames to the archive, they are:

AC/DC Premium/LE - http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/ac-dc-(le)
TRON LE - http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/tron-(le)
Transformers Premium/LE - http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/transformers-(le)
Avatar LE - http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/avatar-(le)

I have copied all details from the existing entry to the new entry.

I have made a first step to move some LE ratings (the ones that mention rating the LE in their reviews). Later today, I hope to add a function so you can do this yourself.


2 years, 9 months ago

Well done Robin... U R da man!!


2 years, 9 months ago

Thanks!

Note: I still need to re-run the Top 100 weekly job to update counters and averages.


2 years, 9 months ago

So I guess this means you're going for the 'just one version in charts' option rather than let them battle it out


2 years, 9 months ago

Nope, for now all version will appears as separate machines in the Top 100.

Grouping machine scores together required additional coding from my end, so I'm gonna see what happens first before investing a lot of time for just these 4 games (well 7 if you count addams family gold, Black Knight LE and Eight Ball Deluxe LE which were already in the database).

I have now also added a little box that clarifies when there are multiple editions of a game:

multiple-versions.jpg (Click image to enlarge)


2 years, 9 months ago

And Centaur II and Fire! Champagne

I think it will be interesting and 'fun' to see how the different versions of the games will fair against each other in the charts...


2 years, 9 months ago

Thanks, I added version info for "Fire!", but what do you mean with Centaur? Centaur and Centaur II are different games, right?

FYI, I have also added LOTR:LE to the archive!


2 years, 9 months ago
robin said:

Centaur and Centaur II are different games, right?

I think not sir... I'm almost 100% certain that Centaur II is basically the same as Centaur but with that silly squashed backbox with the scores in the connecting bit between the head and the cab... in exactly the same way EBD and EBD LE are... The playfield and game is identical... The head is basically the same head as Mr and Mrs Pac Man... A silly idea in my opinion, the art on the normal versions is therefore much better...


2 years, 9 months ago

I think this is a really great idea...IMO AC/DC pro is not a top 50 game...but the Premium is!

One thing though, can we have Spider-Man Black-Suited LE ? Or does that not qualify? (though I dont dont see why it wouldnt)

Great job at present though


2 years, 9 months ago
Medieval_Gofers said:

One thing though, can we have Spider-Man Black-Suited LE ? Or does that not qualify? (though I dont dont see why it wouldnt)

Good question. If the idea is that a game must have changes other than cosmetic ones, then Spider-Man black does not qualify. It does not offer different gameplay or modes. Although I can imagine you want to have your Pinside collection reflect that you have the Black one!


2 years, 9 months ago

By the way Robin, if you're adding some linking wording to the various versions of games to link them together, there's a whole can of worms in the EM area... things like 1,2 and 4 player versions of the same game... and add-a-ball versions... Versions where there was an EM and an SS version... it's certainly not my intention to create more work for you, but while we're on the topic, I thought I'd highlight this...

Just some examples that spring to mind:

Target Alpha (4 player), Solar City (2 player) and Canada Dry (alternate art).

Jungle Queen (4 player) and Jungle Princess (2 player)

Buckaroo and Cow Poke (add-a-ball).

Central Park and Hurdy Gurdy (add-a-ball)

Mata Hari and Charlie’s Angels (you have SS and EM in the database)

Sinbad and Cleopatra you only have the SS versions listed, they were also released as EMs...

There’s also Sega’s Harley Davidson and HD 2nd Edition... You have both in the database here with different values and ratings, but it’s not stated which one is which...

It’s a mine-field out there


2 years, 9 months ago

Okay then Robin, heres your new splash images:

TF Pro, TF LE, ACDC Premium, LOTR LE, TRON LE, Avatar LE

Transformers.jpg (Click image to enlarge) Transformers_LE.jpg (Click image to enlarge) acdc_premium.jpg (Click image to enlarge) LOTR_LE.jpg (Click image to enlarge) Tron_legacy_LE.jpg (Click image to enlarge) Avatar_LE.jpg (Click image to enlarge)



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