(Topic ID: 75171)

Prices & Demand Falling? 2013 seems like "price drop" has become the norm?


By too-many-pins

5 years ago



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    Topic poll

    “Prices trending down & why?”

    • I see no real change in prices 42 votes
      13%
    • Prices are down because there are less people coming into the hobby these days 4 votes
      1%
    • Prices are down because of all the great new machines coming out. 127 votes
      40%
    • Prices are just coming down to a more realistic range for used arcade equipment and were crazy before. 94 votes
      30%
    • OTHER 12 votes
      4%
    • I disagree and actually think prices are still trending upward. 39 votes
      12%

    (318 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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    #1 5 years ago

    I have not been buying or selling much this Fall but it seems like prices are dropping on most machines and machines have been for sale for much longer these days. Up until this Fall it seemed like anything with a half way reasonable price was sold within hours of it being listed. But over the last couple months I see machines listed at fair prices that have been for sale for days or even weeks. Are prices headed back down to earth or does it just seem that way right now because I have not been trying to buy anything lately?

    Are all the new great titles flooding the market? Is there less interest in pins these days? What does everyone else see and what are the reasons for the new trend of lower prices on most non "A" list machines?

    #2 5 years ago

    I'm in Europe and I see a change too. Might not be a drop perse, but kind of a "relaxation". It seems that prices have become more stable the last few months.

    #3 5 years ago

    Simply put, supply is up and demand is down.

    I think this is a good thing for the hobby.

    #4 5 years ago

    Allow me to be the first to vilify you for pointing out that prices are trending down. "You are the lowest form of scum, sir! How dare you suggest my toys are worth less today than they were three months ago. You should be whipped.. you should be purged.. you should be flogged.."

    "When pin prices revert.. people get MEAN." har har har!!

    Post edited by swf127 : poor grammar. didn't want the smack-down.

    #5 5 years ago

    Prices for the 6-9 games that inflated in price 2-3 times that of other quality pins are simply trending down. NIB releases with incomplete codes are hurting as well. Both demand and supply are increasing.

    #6 5 years ago
    Quoted from rplante:

    Simply put, supply is up and demand is down.
    I think this is a good thing for the hobby.

    I'm glad prices are down. Can't wait till the mmr money is due, then we will have some fire sales. I'm saving my money for that day. Ed

    #7 5 years ago

    I think its more people are taking a wait and see to where the market is going. I don't see prices really going down just unsure of whats happening

    #8 5 years ago

    Supply is up, but so is demand. I have yet to see any really good deals sit for too long for any pin under like $4000. I HAVE seen evidence of adjustment for a handful of overinflated titles, directly due to the "threat" of remakes, and also because of the increasing supply of brand-new machines in the $7k and up range. I think it's a mistake to judge the hobby as a whole by the prices at the top tier.

    #9 5 years ago

    Agreed. Still seeing strong demand for good quality mid-level machines. At least in my house I am!

    #10 5 years ago

    Well, Here is my case. I am very limited on what I still want. I have limited space left, if any. I like my collection where it is at. I have limited money left. Basically I have to sell to buy right now.

    I can be a bit choosier on picking a deal more to my liking. I have been noticing a trend of for sales being reduced in price or just coming out of the gate with the no BS Price....

    BUT>>> The downward trends seem to be somewhat limited to Pinside.

    Pinside is a very limited resource and does not reflect, reach or speak for the entire pinball hobby.

    #11 5 years ago

    I moved out many older pins in favor for newer Stern. If it meant I had to drop prices on some of them, that was okay by me. I did notice that I had to go pretty low on many to move them, and interest was very low with some. Some had no interest at all...

    #12 5 years ago
    Quoted from shacklersrevenge:

    I moved out many older pins in favor for newer Stern. If it meant I had to drop prices on some of them, that was okay by me. I did notice that I had to go pretty low on many to move them, and interest was very low with some. Some had no interest at all...

    A couple of your machines were machines that got me thinking more about what I have been seeing lately. $500 for a Firepower II seems way to cheap and it took almost a week for you to sell it.

    I also saw a Diner listed locally to me for $500 and it wasn't already sold when I contacted the guy a few hours after it was listed. A year ago that machine would have been gone in minutes at $1200. I wasn't able to grab the Diner because I have a broken foot and it needed to come up steps but $500 is crazy cheap on that title.

    Prices just seem very low these days on titles most of us would love to own. I am not talking about $5000 and up machines just nice earlier SS stuff. Rarely do I even look at machines over $2000 and I am more of a Data East & William's System 11 guy myself.

    #13 5 years ago

    They got me thinking too. I really like Firepower 2. If someone told me they'd give me $500 for it a few weeks back, I would have declined and laughed. When I started to rethink my collection a little and cut down from 30+ machines, for me at this time to upgrade to newer requires me to cut down and thin the herd. I also could use the space back, because they are in my home, so it seemed like a win win. I was at the point where I could not fit one more pin in the door, and it's never fun if you're not organized and tripping over your prized pins.

    The biggest reason for me ''upgrading'' WAS/IS that there are too many really cool machines coming out or that have been out. I've had almost every pin I can think of, so I know what I like by now. I'll play a game like Metallica Pro, or Avengers and then that solidifies my thinking to just keep it more space manageable and newer for the time being- I love a lot of the newer stern pins.
    When I went to sell, I was really surprised at the lack of interest. I believe it's a combination of bad timing and that they are b and c, pins. If it were closer to Allentown, I think the Firepower 2 would have lasted 2 minutes.

    #14 5 years ago

    Well another aspect that I will add to pin priceing (at least here in the US) is the economy. I know people don't like to tall about it, and our government makes it a point to tell us every day that we are doing great, but the reality is people are spending less money on everything. Christmas weekend I went to the mall to see a movie, and the entire back half of the Sears parking lot was empty (something in years past was unheard of, people use to park on the grass islands in years past). My entire division at work got the axe, and I work for the government as a network administrator. The reason people were given were tax revenue (I work for the tax division, I know I hate me to)were at an all time low due to foreclosures, and people out of work. So I don't know about other areas of the country, bit the average guy who is worrying abou

    #15 5 years ago

    About paying his bills has less disposable income. Couple that with all the newer games comming out, and at such high prices it all takes its toll on sales. Sorry for the split post, but my phone sucks, and wouldn't let me continue my first part.

    #16 5 years ago
    Quoted from Hammerhead1550:

    About paying his bills has less disposable income. Couple that with all the newer games comming out, and at such high prices it all takes its toll on sales. Sorry for the split post, but my phone sucks, and wouldn't let me continue my first part.

    You are exactly right, great way to put it. Ed

    #17 5 years ago

    If it's about the economy, then why was there an uptick in the recreational or luxury area that is pinball, especially the more expensive non-NIB games this year? Was it because there were more jobs or improved economy? There has been a little more stability in the real estate market, but that doesn't completely explain the slight downward correction in pin pricing the past few months. Is it all about supply and demand? We'll learn a lot more in 2014.

    #18 5 years ago

    Sorry to hear about anyone or (pinsiders ) in hard times.However I for one would elated to see the market of the late 80's and early 90's for pinballs return.That was fun.Of course the best titles were more spendy but there were plenty of good titles for good prices.

    #19 5 years ago

    I am looking for some specific machines, TOM, Centaur, TRON. Maybe it's just Ohio, but I see a lot of people listing machines well above fair market prices. As a collector of machines for 25 years now, I see a lot of people pricing machines as if the overall pinball community has no idea of fair market price. Additionally, all of the machines I have bought and sold, I have NEVER purchased a machine where the machine was 100% functional. I know it's not a lot for this community, but I am talking 25+ machines. All of my purchases are either auctions or personal sales. Never purchased from a company who does a real once over before reselling. My personal belief is that many have overpaid and are trying to resell for what they paid, or even more. I am not going to overpay to compensate for someone else's bad decision.

    #20 5 years ago

    Threads talking about prices are a dime a dozen. I am going back downstairs to play more pinball.

    #21 5 years ago
    Quoted from BestShot31:

    There has been a little more stability in the real estate market, but that doesn't completely explain the slight downward correction in pin pricing the past few months. Is it all about supply and demand? We'll learn a lot more in 2014.

    The down tick we are experiencing was 100% triggered by the official announcement of the MMR.
    Everything was fine and selling right up to that moment in time.

    Why it is continuing during the traditional upswing in pin prices? Hindsight will tell for sure. But it was 100% triggered by the MMR.

    #22 5 years ago

    Price them reasonably and they sell fine. Overprice them and they sit and eventually get a price drop. It starts to look awkward, but most of the "price drop" games were priced over the actual market. So really this is a correction of asking prices.

    #23 5 years ago

    Thanks for all the replies and all the poll votes. I think everyone looking to buy machines over the next few months is thankful to see prices trending downward or correcting a little but hopefully this is because of all the great new games coming out and not because of lost interest in these unique machines.

    Just from talking to a few people in the hobby it seems like a lot of people buying $6000 to $8000 new machines are selling several cheaper machines to make space or raise cash to help offset some of the cost of their new machine. So I think this has been a big part of the market being flooded with great titles being sold a little cheaper this year.

    Hopefully things will level off some in 2014 and it will become a little easier to figure out what a "fair price" to pay for each title will be a little easier to establish again. Right now it seems like demand & prices are all over the place on "B" and "C" list titles so it makes it much harder to decide what is the "right" price to be paying for some machines.

    #24 5 years ago
    Quoted from Hammerhead1550:

    Christmas weekend I went to the mall to see a movie, and the entire back half of the Sears parking lot was empty (something in years past was unheard of, people use to park on the grass islands in years past).

    this doesn't mean anything. i did all my christmas shopping this year without leaving the house.

    #25 5 years ago

    Demand is still high but much more supply and even more good stuff coming. The announcement of MMR has solidified that there is indeed supply. The "urgency" so many were following to buy the latest pin before they were all snatched up with a price increase that followed has been removed. With more options buyers are able to take a wait and see approach and make better purchasing decisions. The entire pricing model won't crash, but we'll see duds go for what they're actually worth while good games will hold their price. Manufacturers will indeed need to take care to put the attention to detail on their games to see them sell out.

    Competition has begun shifting from purchasers competing to buy (whatever was available) to manufacturers competing to sell. We're not quite there yet but if mmr is a success then we'll fully be there. That's when we'll start seeing some fabulous games.

    It's all cyclical though.

    #26 5 years ago

    I think there's a temporary softening in the market caused by the MMR announcement. My guess is, the market will stay soft for the next year and then continue to trend upward.

    #27 5 years ago
    Quoted from Collin:

    I think there's a temporary softening in the market caused by the MMR announcement. My guess is, the market will stay soft for the next year and then continue to trend upward.

    That's not all. Impact of MMr is limited in France as it costs more than an original one.
    Still, fewer machines got sold for xmas and we did not observe the usual pinflation for this period

    #28 5 years ago

    I sell alot games. Its alot harder now then a year ago. But then again for me the peak was when stern had trouble. (Around ripley) when i did put up a add for a wms games it sold in 1-2 days. Now alot people buy new games.
    I''m in europe.

    #29 5 years ago
    Quoted from maddog14:

    The down tick we are experiencing was 100% triggered by the official announcement of the MMR.
    Everything was fine and selling right up to that moment in time.
    Why it is continuing during the traditional upswing in pin prices? Hindsight will tell for sure. But it was 100% triggered by the MMR.

    I agree with this 100%. It's been a weird past couple of months for sure.

    #30 5 years ago

    It is always supply and demand...

    Supply is way up with Stern, JJP, and MMR all fighting for those people able and willing to spend approx $7000 on a new game. Most people cannot afford this, and the number of able and willing buyers may be nearing saturation. It is hard to grow the hobby by selling a $7000 machine to a first time pinball buyer.

    Older, cheap DMD machines are disappearing into basements, or being restored, fixed up, and sold at higher prices. We used to be able to get a cheaper Data East or so for $750-$1000 at auction, now they are hard to find for less than $2000+. It is a much bigger commitment to get a new person into the hobby nowadays. It is harder to get a new person into the industry for $2000 for his first game versus $750, especially in a poor economy. And for the vast majority, even $750 is a ton of money. Growth is likely tied to inexpensive entry level machines that are still fun and have a lot of action.

    I don't want to use the word bubble, I am just not sure pinball is a sustainable industry. My entry into pinball, was based on used, 20 year old machines that had declined in value to a ridiculous level. You could never rebuild those machines for the prices I paid. Most of us got in cheap, enjoying the price discount ($5000 new versus $1000 used) that the arcades and operators ate. I do not see pinball doing well on location around me, at $1 per play I don't know that it makes much money with experienced players. And experienced players seem to be the only ones playing.

    I have my ideas where the industry is going, and I could be wrong, but I am gonna stay around for the ride regardless. I love pinball, it is a fun thing for me, my family, and friends, and if my machines lose most of their value so be it, I am not viewing pinball as an investment. I think the next couple of years could be very crazy, my suggestions are to have fun and don't buy more than you can afford to lose.

    #31 5 years ago

    Finally, startups can imagine making money at pinball. Great for the hobby but not for future prices. Supply and demand will prick the high end game price bubble, with a rapid cascade into lesser games,and probably the profit in rehabbing games. The next hit to the A list games will be the large rise this year in total US federal taxes. It must take a 6 figure income to buy several $8000 games. Buyers in expensive hobbies are going to really slow their spending. And if their home values go down... or we have economy wide deflation or fears of who knows what.... As an investment, pinballs are "illiquid" (hard to sell quickly) and this may affect their desirability. At the same time, they are sure fun to look at and play. I bought in at lower levels in the 90's, but even if I hadn't, I'm going out with them. Stacking multiballs is much more fun than stacking cash.

    #32 5 years ago

    Personally I hope prices plummet so I can actually afford to buy a good condition dmd. With that bias revealed, I do see it happening in the near future thanks to all the new games being pumped out. I just got into this pretty recently, but the hobby seems way too price conscious. Tons of people seem to behave more like investors than people who enjoy playing or working on pinball machines. Machine pricing seems to be by far the #1 topic on here even though it should be an afterthought in my opinion.

    "Just trying to get out what I have in it" is an extremely common phrase in the marketplace. Nobody should be buying and playing and enjoying a fun toy and then expecting to sell it for more than they paid. It doesn't make any sense and I don't see it lasting.

    #33 5 years ago
    Quoted from biggestboss:

    "Just trying to get out what I have in it" is an extremely common phrase in the marketplace. Nobody should be buying and playing and enjoying a fun toy and then expecting to sell it for more than they paid. It doesn't make any sense and I don't see it lasting.

    For some reason games priced like that seem to be sitting on the market longer now, followed by price reductions commonly...

    #34 5 years ago

    I think there are a couple ways of looking at interest in price trends or what machines are actually selling for. To me - I am most interested so I know what a "fair price" is when buying or selling. I don't want to pay $1500 for a $1000 machine but I also don't want to be the guy trying to sell a $1200 machine for $1500. So to me I am more interested in price trends so I know what to sell machine for or what to pay for machines than I am to know if our collection is going up or down i value.

    Hobbies cost money and pinball - like all other hobbies - will & should cost money. I just don't want to be the guy paying full retail at Starbucks for a cup of coffee when a block over the Boy Scouts are selling it for 50 cents a cup.

    It is funny because a few people have made the comment about there being too many post talking about stuff like this and not enough talk about machines or playing pinball. To me - I am sick of hearing 105 different views about what JJP or Stern's next game should be or LED's in this or that. Let alone all the talk about why is it taking JJP to get pins shipped or when is --- going to start shipping - etc.

    I wish you would see more post about restoration techniques, how best to repair ---, etc. and less talk about the next $8500 machine 90% of the people here can't afford. Not everyone is buying several new machines each year or all "A" list machines.

    I don't have the money to buy new machines - very few machines in our collection are even DMD machines and I don't own an "A" list machine because I don't have $5000 or more to pay for a machine that will get played a few times each month.

    Hopefully threads like this will help people make educated decisions when figuring out what to pay for machines.

    Anyway - keep enjoying this great hobby and everyone have a Safe & Happy New Year!

    #35 5 years ago

    I just voted and yes this graph is accurate.

    Market saturation is impending and so many great games coming to market. There is only so much money, so much room and so many titles a certain core buyer can consume.

    It's a buyers market and prices have fallen on used games. The NIB pricing can't sustain for much longer. These prices also need to come to reason.

    Stern tier market share is smart with 3 models and JJP also have a market that is smart if they can keep the game around $7500-. Don't know how much longer the boutique pinball crew can survive.

    #36 5 years ago

    NIBs are eating the used market's lunch.

    The days of making money off something you owned for 6 months are over. I'm fine with that. I just sold my $4000 drum set (bought new) for $1500. That's the way things go.

    #37 5 years ago
    Quoted from frolic:

    NIBs are eating the used market's lunch.
    The days of making money off something you owned for 6 months are over. I'm fine with that. I just sold my $4000 drum set (bought new) for $1500. That's the way things go.

    Exactly.

    What it does mean is that people will keep games longer, rather than quick flipping. I don't mind taking losses but only if I have owned the game a good while. Churn rate will decrease all over I reckon.

    #38 5 years ago

    Hey if prices are all dropping, I've got $1500 for a demolition man and $1000 for a wwf royal rumble.

    #39 5 years ago

    Not sure they drop so fast ebay.com link » Data East Jurassic Park Pinball Playfield Plastics Set New And Complete Nr

    #40 5 years ago

    It just became stupid for some games. I scratch my head over a game like WH20 for example. It's 20 years old, and up until the last few years was a $1500-2200 game all day long, which feels spot on for what it is. Almost over night, it becomes $3500-$4500. For that kind of money, I'll jump in a brand new game (pro)- fresh and not played to death for the last 20 years. There are a lot of examples like this though. Another is Ripley's Believe it or not. I can remember seeing this game for $1400-2000 all day. $2000, and that was considered crazy to pay for it. When I started watching it climb over 3k, I just shook my head and moved on.

    Recently, as I looked for my next Stern, I studied. I wanted something that was real good, but not something everyone has been targeting or talking a lot about. Two games that used to be in the low $3,000 area have been LOTR AND TSSP, which I consider Sterns bread and butter premier pins. LOTR has launched in to mid to high 4k range, but TSPP has remained in the low 3k range. I have seen 2-3 in my area listed for around $3100. When one came up on ebay for $3000, I bid and won and couldn't be happier, great shape, nice game.
    That's not to say I haven't seen them in the 4k range, but I just won't pay that.

    Sometimes there are pins or prices that remain somewhat normal, and before you jump on the next new pin, it's best to look behind for a gem. TSPP is one of those examples.

    #41 5 years ago
    Quoted from shacklersrevenge:

    Sometimes there are pins or prices that remain somewhat normal, and before you jump on the next new pin, it's best to look behind for a gem. TSPP is one of those examples.

    There are a ton of older "gems" out there and the prices will continue to get better on those.

    People want the new bling/technology/light shows......myself included

    #42 5 years ago

    I think what you guys are hitting on was more or less exactly what I have been thinking lately.

    It seems like people with 5 or more machines tend to be selling off a few great earlier titles to make room for or fund a newer machine or two. In the 4+ years I have been in the hobby I have never seen $1200 to $2500 machines sit so long when posted at "fair prices".

    Really cheap "starter machines" & EM's seem to be doing OK and holding their own and most high end machines seem OK also but the lower priced DMD machines just seem to be selling much slower than they have in the past.

    Someone just posted a RFM a little while ago at $2100 and it looks like it is still for sale with several comments about how cheap it is but still not sold. A few months ago a nice one at $2500 would have been gone in minutes. There is also a Whitewater for sale not too far from us right now for $2000. I can't remember the last time I saw one that cheap!

    #43 5 years ago

    Before I get emails about the Whitewater it is on Craig's List in Central New Jersey if anyone is interested.

    #44 5 years ago

    I got a feeling a lot of these threads are people trying to artificially lower the prices. Please, everyone post your rock bottom b/w for sales here, and let me buy them all up. I keep seem to talk anyone out of anything.

    I just posted in a thread about a routed EATPM for $2,500, and people were agreeing with that value :O

    #45 5 years ago

    We see price drops because Shazaam'n is frowned upon

    #46 5 years ago

    I rarely if EVER sell my B/W DMD pins, why is this ?

    I sold my Cactus Canyon earlier this year because it was crazy stupid money to have it sit as a show piece I played 5 times in a year.

    #47 5 years ago
    Quoted from shacklersrevenge:

    I scratch my head over a game like WH20 for example. It's 20 years old, and up until the last few years was a $1500-2200 game all day long, which feels spot on for what it is. Almost over night, it becomes $3500-$4500.

    That happened the moment new ramps became available.

    Prior to that, nobody wanted WH2O because all the ramps were broken or were about to break.

    As soon as ramps became available, the price went through the roof as everybody loves WH2O when it has working ramps.

    Same thing as Space Shuttle. $250 game all day long because all the playfields were trashed and all the ramps were broke.

    The moment ramps and playfields became available; bang! $2500 for a restored game.

    #48 5 years ago

    Very interesting so far!

    Please keep voting and give examples of machines selling either cheap or high that you have seen sold or know of selling in the past few months. My guess is trending down by about 10 to 20% on a good many machines recently?

    #49 5 years ago

    Is there going to be a $3,500 LOTR near me soon??

    #50 5 years ago
    Quoted from tl54hill:

    It is always supply and demand...
    Supply is way up with Stern, JJP, and MMR all fighting for those people able and willing to spend approx $7000 on a new game. Most people cannot afford this, and the number of able and willing buyers may be nearing saturation. It is hard to grow the hobby by selling a $7000 machine to a first time pinball buyer.
    Older, cheap DMD machines are disappearing into basements, or being restored, fixed up, and sold at higher prices. We used to be able to get a cheaper Data East or so for $750-$1000 at auction, now they are hard to find for less than $2000+. It is a much bigger commitment to get a new person into the hobby nowadays. It is harder to get a new person into the industry for $2000 for his first game versus $750, especially in a poor economy. And for the vast majority, even $750 is a ton of money. Growth is likely tied to inexpensive entry level machines that are still fun and have a lot of action.

    I echo these thoughts and frustrations very much. This was very well said.

    Quoted from shacklersrevenge:

    It just became stupid for some games. I scratch my head over a game like WH20 for example. It's 20 years old, and up until the last few years was a $1500-2200 game all day long, which feels spot on for what it is. Almost over night, it becomes $3500-$4500. For that kind of money, I'll jump in a brand new game (pro)- fresh and not played to death for the last 20 years. There are a lot of examples like this though. Another is Ripley's Believe it or not. I can remember seeing this game for $1400-2000 all day. $2000, and that was considered crazy to pay for it. When I started watching it climb over 3k, I just shook my head and moved on.

    I hear ya man, and this is one of the most frustrating things I've seen. I get it, ramps are now available so BOOM goes the price back on up. If that's the case, why hasn't TFTC gone through the roof with the plastics finally being made by CPR. Oh yeah, that pesky DE badge...

    Two big examples I've noted: DM and JD. Ok, Judge Dredd blew up this year - I get it - it's not $1400 anymore, but it sure was for YEARS and years. And DM, I remember last year I backed out of one for $1200 because TFTC came up, and I had to let DM go. Now, DM is in the $2000 range.

    Yet, HS2 stalls at $2000-$2200 and has barely budged in 2 years (thank God). Another one I'm very interested in watching is JP. I have no desire to get it again, but the plastics have been going for insane money lately. I can't help but wonder what will happen to JP's price the moment those plastics get reproduced (if ever).

    The market is just weird, man. I dunno what to make of it anymore. I'm just glad I have TFTC.

    Another thing I can't help but wonder, how much of Stern and JJP promoting $8000 pins is pushing up all the sub-$2000 games higher up....? As the old saying goes: "Any port in a storm..." - even if it says Johnny Mnemonic or Data East on it.

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