Just curios what people think the going rate should be to shop a TZ? Excluding parts, just for my labor. I have a TZ, but haven’t shopped it in years. Kinda lost touch on how many hours I’d have to dedicate to it. I’m assuming a topside tear down, full mechanical rebuild and convert to LEDs. Any electronic repairs would be extra.
Thanks for any feedback!
TZ is a pita to shop expect about 10-20 hrs to shop but if problems arise that would be at the low end. Would expect 300-450 in labor or more. However a finely tuned tz is worth the price nothing worse than a poorly playing one once you know how one plays.
Al
Depends on how it’s done,I just shopped out a Police Force. I stripped playfield
New post ,Titans, new ramps, plastics
I polished every screw or nut and it looks great but took forever. If I was going to do my TZ a $1000 plus parts
04B0F0BA-3599-4715-AE75-3BF552350CB5 (resized).jpeg1CAAF89B-DAAA-498C-BF30-9FD1C65D6641 (resized).jpegQuoted from bartron:I charge $300 plus parts , what ever the machine.
that's a full playfield strip. all coils re-sleeved all mech's cleaned , re-lamped etc.
You are doing yourself a HUGE disservice. While that may be a fair price on an early solid state or EM that can be completely stripped to the playfield in < 10 minutes, doing a full tear down shop job on a TZ is orders of magnitude more difficult. I loathe shopping mine. I'll gladly pay you $300 to do mine because I wouldn't charge < $700 and probably more figuring this is a solid 15-20 hour project, including tear down, cleaning, rebuild, re-rubber, flipper/pop builds, etc.
Figure out what your time is worth on an hourly basis and multiply by 20-30 hours. Build in a few extra hours because there will always be unexpected problems you run into. Then there is the cost of parts, sleeves stuck in coils, flipper rebuild, removal/cleaning of subways, etc. tz has a lot of mechs.
I think somewhere in the neighborhood of $750 to $900 is a reasonable price (not including parts). Just my personal opinion. I owned TZ for about 1 year and pretty much went thru everything over that time. Never enjoyed removing the mini-playfield. Took me about 1.5 hours just to change over to LEDs. Lots to remove, clean, lube, etc.
8E909BE1-FA61-4D85-AE19-B3D3FF015E24 (resized).jpegI just finished a Bugs Bunny a couple of weeks ago. Full strip of playfield, clean, polish playfield & metal, wax and leds and some repairs to 100% working. I charged $700 delivered which is low. TZ would be $1000 or more imo.
Andrew
$300-$400 + cost of parts
you guys wanting to charge $800-$1000 - Will people pay that? you can get a cabinet rework with decals or darn near a playfield swap for that in my neck of the woods.
Quoted from woody76:$300-$400 + cost of parts
you guys wanting to charge $800-$1000 - Will people pay that? you can get a cabinet rework with decals or darn near a playfield swap for that in my neck of the woods.
It all depends on what your time is worth. I certainly wouldn't strip down a TZ for only $300. That's not worth all the effort.
For $300, I'd probably just do a wipe down and wax, and rebuild the flippers, and maybe a couple other minor things.
Quoted from ForceFlow:For $300, I'd probably just do a wipe down and wax, and rebuild the flippers, and maybe a couple other minor things.
Dang. So you charge $300/hr...solid rate!
Quoted from TKDalumni:Dang. So you charge $300/hr...solid rate!
Most playfields I see haven't been serviced in years. It's not going to be a quick 10 minute cleaning.
Quoted from woody76:$300-$400 + cost of parts
you guys wanting to charge $800-$1000 - Will people pay that? you can get a cabinet rework with decals or darn near a playfield swap for that in my neck of the woods.
Yes they will
Quoted from bartron:I charge $300 plus parts , what ever the machine.
that's a full playfield strip. all coils re-sleeved all mech's cleaned , re-lamped etc.
Quoted from woody76:$300-$400 + cost of parts
you guys wanting to charge $800-$1000 - Will people pay that? you can get a cabinet rework with decals or darn near a playfield swap for that in my neck of the woods.
Damn...I cant imagine doing any DMD game for that cheap...Im willing to bet you guys do great work, I think you should be getting at least 500
Per OP description of a shop job.
Full playfield tear down
Full mechanical rebuild
So that means everything gets cleaned metal tumbled, inserts cleaned, PF waxed, assemblies disassembled, cleaned & rebuilt.
Rebuilding pop bumper assemblies.
Four flipper assemblies to rebuild.
Let not forget about spending a couple of hours dialing in game so it plays great.
Price $800 to $1100 depending on location and if transportation is required.
People who are saying $300 are doing charity work or might not know what’s involved.
Interesting thread. We all talk about how much we’d charge to shop out a machine but in the next breath we talk about we can’t add the labor hours into pricing a pin. The question is, how much more, if any, are you willing to pay for a tuned in, shopped pin vs an unshopped but working pin?
Quoted from pinplayerinva:Interesting thread. We all talk about how much we’d charge to shop out a machine but in the next breath we talk about we can’t add the labor hours into pricing a pin. The question is, how much more, if any, are you willing to pay for a tuned in, shopped pin vs an unshopped but working pin?
I'd take the unshopped pin over the shopped pin if the price was right, but I'm weird like that.
Quoted from Zablon:I'd take the unshopped pin over the shopped pin if the price was right, but I'm weird like that.
Absolutely, me too. I just think it’s a little contradictory on our part when we bash each other for pricing labor into a pin for sale but yet a post like this we tell each other how we’d charge $750 plus parts to shop a pin
If a machine is shopped by a pro who will stand behind it, factor in the cost.
If the machine is shopped by an owner, that is an entirely different scenario that would need to be valued on a case by case basis.
Quoted from ForceFlow:Most playfields I see haven't been serviced in years. It's not going to be a quick 10 minute cleaning.
Dirty or not, the work you mentioned should take about an hour...
most shops ive ran across in the Midwest charge about a 6-900 for a complete shop job. games like tz, Baywatch, white water, with fully populated playfields run on the higher end.
Quoted from TKDalumni:Dirty or not, the work you mentioned should take about an hour...
lol, obviously you have never shopped a game. even a old 80's bally is gonna cost ya 6-8 hrs minimum
Quoted from ForceFlow:For $300, I'd probably just do a wipe down and wax, and rebuild the flippers, and maybe a couple other minor things.
Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:lol, obviously you have never shopped a game. even a old 80's bally is gonna cost ya 6-8 hrs minimum
Did you miss the post he was referencing?
Quoted from Madmax541:Per OP description of a shop job.
Full playfield tear down
Full mechanical rebuildSo that means everything gets cleaned metal tumbled, inserts cleaned, PF waxed, assemblies disassembled, cleaned & rebuilt.
Rebuilding pop bumper assemblies.
Four flipper assemblies to rebuild.
IMHO, "mechanical rebuild" does NOT include polishing metal. That's more "restoration" work.
Quoted from TKDalumni:Dirty or not, the work you mentioned should take about an hour...
I think you're vastly underestimating the amount of time a decent cleaning takes, especially on a packed playfield like TZ.
I did a cleaning on one a few years ago, and it probably took a solid 4 hours to make everything presentable (everything had a layer of black dust on it), fix some minor issues, replace some optos, replace some easily accessible rubbers, do some troubleshooting, and rebuild the flippers. Then also present a list of things that needed to be repaired/replaced.
Most home games I've seen tend to be in this neglected state and haven't seen regular service.
So, while cleaning doesn't take up the whole block of time, there are a lot of other things that come into play as you're going through a game (even when not doing a full tear-down).
Quoted from Coyote:IMHO, "mechanical rebuild" does NOT include polishing metal. That's more "restoration" work.
I can do a full tear down (including board repairs) of an early solid state game in about two weeks of evenings and weekends if I really rush it. Basically anywhere between 3-6 hours each day.
I do cut some corners with polishing to arrive at a middle ground (to cut out tumbling) when time is an issue. I'll hand polish some of the larger visible pieces, and then use a drill (with various sanding/polishing attachments) for screw heads, and drill and bench polisher for large pieces like guides, lockbars, legs.
Quoted from ForceFlow:I do cut some corners with polishing to arrive at a middle ground (to cut out tumbling) when time is an issue. I'll hand polish some of the larger visible pieces, and then use a drill (with various sanding/polishing attachments) for screw heads, and drill and bench polisher for large pieces like guides, lockbars, legs.
*nods* Do you consider that a 'rebuild' or 'restore', though? To me, as a buyer (and someone who's had to shop/rebuild games countless times when operating), a "rebuild" dosen't include polishing, touching up art, replacing plastics with new ones, etc. (And yeah, I consider all those items on the same level..)
Quoted from Coyote:*nods8 Do you consider that a 'rebuild' or 'restore', though? To me, as a buyer (and someone who's had to shop/rebuild games countless times when operating), a "rebuild" dosen't include polishing, touching up art, replacing plastics with new ones, etc. (And yeah, I consider all those items on the same level..)
Advanced shop job or refurb, maybe? It's not really to the degree of a full restore. I still tear everything apart, clean, rebuild, and replace broken/worn parts, sleeves, posts, plastics, guides, pop caps, etc. Replacing all that stuff makes a game look good and play well. I'll also touch up some of the black keylines and add mylar in high wear spots.
For the most part, that middle ground is for when I have multiple show games to prep. The main thing I don't do is polish every single part, especially if it's not visible to the player. So, for instance, a drop target cage wouldn't be polished, but it would be clean and functional.
For a full treatment, I'd put just about everything through a tumbler and polish every part. But that depends on how much time I have, and if the game is worth putting that time into. I'm probably not going to put that much time & effort into a $600 game.
As for playfield artwork or cabinet restoration, generally I don't do much there. I don't have the shop space, I don't do clear coating, nor am I very good at color matching. But--I will create decals to patch small worn areas.
Thanks all for the feedback. Yeah, my intent would be to completely strip the topside, use an ultrasonic cleaner on posts and what not, replace anything broken (including posts, plastics, etc.), the obvious playfield clean and wax, then re-assemble. Bottom side would be a full mechanical rebuild and clean. And of course fix anything that’s broken, and play it to make sure it’s dialed in. I guess it’s somewhat of a re-furbishment.
Honestly I walked away from it anyhow. The owner told me the game had been near salt water and had corrosion on a lot of the parts. And I can see the cabinet is faded. He said he wants it restored “like new”. So in my head, it would need new ramps (the flaps are rusted), all new bracketry on the bottom side, all new screw hardware and gods knows what else. And I’m not set up to re-decal a cabinet. So yeah, I walked away from it. Seems like $1k for my labor is still too low, and honestly I just don’t want to do it. Was hoping for a simple shop and fix job....
Just for fun, I decided to shop my TZ. Honestly, it needed it. It’s been too many years. And while it doesn’t get a ton of play, the rubbers were shot and it’s just looking dingy.
The pic below is 6 hours and 15 minutes into the job. Worth noting is all subways are removed too, and the clock/gumball machine have been through an ultrasonic cleaning and reassembled.
I’m logging every minute just to see. I’m not a novice and think I work at an above average speed. I’ve owner my TZ for over 20 years, and it’s been shopped more than once, a handful of times when I was kid and wife free.
537DEC8B-AE21-4882-8CFD-E4FA5F9F329D (resized).jpegQuoted from PinJim:Just for fun, I decided to shop my TZ. Honestly, it needed it. It’s been too many years. And while it doesn’t get a ton of play, the rubbers were shot and it’s just looking dingy.
The pic below is 6 hours and 15 minutes into the job. Worth noting is all subways are removed too, and the clock/gumball machine have been through an ultrasonic cleaning and reassembled.
I’m logging every minute just to see. I’m not a novice and think I work at an above average speed. I’ve owner my TZ for over 20 years, and it’s been shopped more than once, a handful of times when I was kid and wife free.[quoted image]
Now that's a true shop job great job bud
Quoted from Williampinball:Now that's a true shop job great job bud
Thanks. There was ample dirt and build up under the metal ball guides. I really didn’t want to pull them, or the metal posts, but it needs it. The ultrasonic cleaner will be busy today!
Quoted from PinJim:Thanks. There was ample dirt and build up under the metal ball guides. I really didn’t want to pull them, or the metal posts, but it needs it. The ultrasonic cleaner will be busy today!
Yea I bet yea most people wouldn't go though all that ,I would but great job that TZ will look new again 
Yeah, I'm not far off from that. I'm still tracking every minute spent on my shop job. I'm in the re-assembly phase. Just guessing, I'm at 14 hours now and still have a good bit to go. I'll post final results hopefully in a few weeks....
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:Everyone's definition of a shop job is different.
I like to go a bit over the top with mine. Although, some may not want this much done.[quoted image]
In case anyone is wondering, it took 23 hours and 50 minutes to complete the shop job. Worth noting; I did more than some may do, like using the ultrasonic on a ton of stuff, removed all subways and scoops, rebuilt all major mechanicals, and I’m sure more that I’m forgetting. That include an hour or so of tuning things after the shop job was complete, fixing flaky bulbs and adjusting a few switches. But it’s 100% working now, tuned up and playing like the beast it is.
I’m sure it can be done in less (and more) time. I didn’t pull the flipper brackets, or go super in depth cleaning things like the gumball popper mechanism. But, I’d say I did a fairly in depth job.
Now I have to get all of the high scores again since I put in nvram (which I did not count as part of the shop job).
E29C1DAC-1936-4566-8D94-F29C0B5A4DDF (resized).jpegHaving done TZ, it's alot of work.
The definition of SHOP varies. To me, it's making sure that the game is 100% functional, clean with new rubber and is presentable in good working order.
If the PF is filthy then more stuff has to come off to achieve clean status.
Someone working on a pinball machine is as skilled as a mechanic. Shop mechanic rates are $75 to $125 or more an hour. Let's say the average pinball labor is worth $75 an hour for a multi-hour shop job. If it takes 4 hours, that's $300.00 If it takes more like a full day (7 to 8 hours) for TZ its more like a $600 job plus rubber, bulbs and any parts. Certainly reasonable on top of what amounts to a $6,500 to $7,500 game. It's about 10%.
Quoted from PinJim:In case anyone is wondering, it took 23 hours and 50 minutes to complete the shop job. Worth noting; I did more than some may do, like using the ultrasonic on a ton of stuff, removed all subways and scoops, rebuilt all major mechanicals, and I’m sure more that I’m forgetting. That include an hour or so of tuning things after the shop job was complete, fixing flaky bulbs and adjusting a few switches. But it’s 100% working now, tuned up and playing like the beast it is.
I’m sure it can be done in less (and more) time. I didn’t pull the flipper brackets, or go super in depth cleaning things like the gumball popper mechanism. But, I’d say I did a fairly in depth job.
Now I have to get all of the high scores again since I put in nvram (which I did not count as part of the shop job).[quoted image]
Nice job.
Quoted from twoplays25:Having done TZ, it's alot of work.
The definition of SHOP varies. To me, it's making sure that the game is 100% functional, clean with new rubber and is presentable in good working order.
If the PF is filthy then more stuff has to come off to achieve clean status.
Someone working on a pinball machine is as skilled as a mechanic. Shop mechanic rates are $75 to $125 or more an hour. Let's say the average pinball labor is worth $75 an hour for a multi-hour shop job. If it takes 4 hours, that's $300.00 If it takes more like a full day (7 to 8 hours) for TZ its more like a $600 job plus rubber, bulbs and any parts. Certainly reasonable on top of what amounts to a $6,500 to $7,500 game. It's about 10%.
I honestly don’t know how you could fully tackle TZ in 8 hours. Not without taking a lot of shortcuts. Has anyone come near that? Granted, I totally disassembled the clock, gumball machine, etc...
I agree everyone has their own definition of what it means to shop vs restore a game. Certainly I did not do a ground up restoration, but to be fair, my machine doesn’t need it. I’ve had it 20 years so it didn’t see a ton of route time.
I’m guessing it was $400 or $500 in parts, if you include the LED set and Ingo clock board. Honestly though, I had a lot of the parts on hand already like flipper rebuild kits, coil sleeves, etc. I’ve been collecting TZ parts for a while, just didn’t have the time to get the job done. Sad to say it’s probably been 10 years since I’ve shopped it, but it doesn’t get a ton of play. I’m sure it’ll get more now, and my STTNG will get less.
Quoted from PinJim:I honestly don’t know how you could fully tackle TZ in 8 hours. Not without taking a lot of shortcuts. Has anyone come near that? Granted, I totally disassembled the clock, gumball machine, etc...
I agree everyone has their own definition of what it means to shop vs restore a game. Certainly I did not do a ground up restoration, but to be fair, my machine doesn’t need it. I’ve had it 20 years so it didn’t see a ton of route time.
I’m guessing it was $400 or $500 in parts, if you include the LED set and Ingo clock board. Honestly though, I had a lot of the parts on hand already like flipper rebuild kits, coil sleeves, etc. I’ve been collecting TZ parts for a while, just didn’t have the time to get the job done. Sad to say it’s probably been 10 years since I’ve shopped it, but it doesn’t get a ton of play. I’m sure it’ll get more now, and my STTNG will get less.
He's referring to a 'SHOP' job, not a restoration.
When I would shop my on-location games (including my TZ), it did not involve removing the gumball machine. Or the clock. Or every metal guide. It involved fully cleaning the playfield, removing the ramps to do so. Wiping down the ramps and subways. Giving the playfield a good waxing. Replacing any rubbers that were starting to fray. Cleaning the other rubbers that were still solid. Rebuilding all flippers. Replacing any bulbs, switches that weren't working, flashers, etc. The point of a shop job was (back in the 90's) to get it spruced back up and out on the floor so it can make money, and folks wouldn't be upset at dirt, burnt out bulbs and such.
(After I left one company, they started sending in their games to our local distributor, whoh charged $500 for a shoip job, and this is what they did. It didn't include buffing and shinening metal parts, or rebuilding anything not broken (like the clock and gumball). If anything unexpected WAS broken, or anything more than a switch needed to be replaced (like a coil, linkages, etc), then those prices for parts were tossed in on top of the shop cost.
Quoted from PinJim:In case anyone is wondering, it took 23 hours and 50 minutes to complete the shop job. Worth noting; I did more than some may do, like using the ultrasonic on a ton of stuff, removed all subways and scoops, rebuilt all major mechanicals, and I’m sure more that I’m forgetting. That include an hour or so of tuning things after the shop job was complete, fixing flaky bulbs and adjusting a few switches. But it’s 100% working now, tuned up and playing like the beast it is.
I’m sure it can be done in less (and more) time. I didn’t pull the flipper brackets, or go super in depth cleaning things like the gumball popper mechanism. But, I’d say I did a fairly in depth job.
Now I have to get all of the high scores again since I put in nvram (which I did not count as part of the shop job).[quoted image]
Courious if you notice a difference in game play on this example ? 
Quoted from mollyspub:Courious if you notice a difference in game play on this example ?
100% it plays different. The flippers are crisp, the slings are powerful. The new rubber makes a difference. But I think the cleanliness of the playfield, coupled with a lot of wax, makes the biggest difference.
Waaaaay back when I got TZ, I was in college. I had a lot more time on my hands. I’d clean and wax the playfield weekly. And I’d wax the balls (which I did today too). Even after a week of play, I could see things change. Clean and wax and crazy things would happen again, like balls spinning and taking crazy trajectories. Mind you, my college buddies and I played a LOT of TZ, and drank a lot of beer. Ha. Seriously though, I played it so much in college that when my turn came up, they’d go watch TV because it was going to be a while. Clearly I’ve lost that edge, as I’m struggling today to hit the spiral awards. But, I may have slowed down a bit too in the past 20 years. Or I need beer to fuel me. Hmmmm...
that's actually quite a little time for that complete teardown. I would of thought more around the 30-35 hr mark. but then again, I tend to drink a lot of beer when doing one, and I have a bladder like a 90 yr old.
Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:that's actually quite a little time for that complete teardown. I would of thought more around the 30-35 hr mark. but then again, I tend to drink a lot of beer when doing one, and I have a bladder like a 90 yr old.
It probably helps that my game was 100% working and dialed in before the process began. I only broke out the soldering iron a few times - a wire that broke, and I removed the sling switches and polished them. But there was zero board work, other than install nvram, which wasn’t included in my estimate anyhow...
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