(Topic ID: 216762)

Fair Pinball Buying/Selling. What is considered good pinball etiquette?


By ASOA

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 188 posts
  • 93 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Brazy
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    Topic poll

    “Is it ok to turn a big profit on selling a sought after pinball machine?”

    • YES! 231 votes
      73%
    • NO! 43 votes
      14%
    • MAYBE! 43 votes
      14%

    (317 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

    There are 188 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 4.
    #101 1 year ago
    Quoted from Trekkie1978:

    How does one get screwed over when they voluntarily enter into the transaction?
    No one is being forced to purchase a luxury item, that at the end of the day, is a toy.
    Unless force is involved, there is no way screwing can occur.

    Anyone who wanted to buy an LE but missed out, who then see what you’re doing is going to feel screwed over.
    And the 1 person you ripped off for one $2000 (or whatever it was that you added for your “services”) should also feel ripped off. Lastly, that same buyer if he/she ever has any warranty issues since they’re not the original buyer.

    -2
    #102 1 year ago
    Quoted from Chambahz:

    Anyone who wanted to buy an LE but missed out, who then see what you’re doing is going to feel screwed over.
    And the 1 person you ripped off for one $2000 (or whatever it was that you added for your “services”) should also feel ripped off. Lastly, that same buyer if he/she ever has any warranty issues since they’re not the original buyer.

    So exactly which gun did I use to point at the person's head that bought the game?

    Did you interview the buyer? Did you have a conversation with them? What exactly did they say...since you seem to know how they feel about the transaction.

    #103 1 year ago
    Quoted from Chambahz:

    Anyone who wanted to buy an LE but missed out, who then see what you’re doing is going to feel screwed over.
    And the 1 person you ripped off for one $2000 (or whatever it was that you added for your “services”) should also feel ripped off. Lastly, that same buyer if he/she ever has any warranty issues since they’re not the original buyer.

    Just because someone "feels" like they have been screwed over, does that actually mean they have been screwed over? What one's opinions, thoughts, feelings, beliefs, or suspicions might be, can be different than what is actual.

    #104 1 year ago
    Quoted from Trekkie1978:

    How does one get screwed over when they voluntarily enter into the transaction?
    No one is being forced to purchase a luxury item, that at the end of the day, is a toy.
    Unless force is involved, there is no way screwing can occur.

    Bingo. Impatient buyers create the situation in the first place.

    I'd love to pickup a Honda Civic Type-R, but folks routinely pay 10-20k over sticker for a 30k car! Rather than pay the "gotta have it now" tax, I'll wait until the madness dies down and I can pay MSRP. Car market is competitive and there is always a great alternative.

    Sure, I'd love to have IMLE asap, however getting a Premium a couple months from now (if that) will work just fine.

    snaroff

    #105 1 year ago
    Quoted from Trekkie1978:

    So exactly which gun did I use to point at the person's head that bought the game?
    Did you interview the buyer? Did you have a conversation with them? What exactly did they say...since you seem to know how they feel about the transaction.

    You continue to be as thick as possible, addressing only the piece that works in your favour.
    The buyer obviously is “content” with the purchase and possibly even more so since they have acquired a hard to get LE.
    But EVEN WITHOUT INTERVIEWING THEM, I can tell you with absolute certainty: THEY WOULD HAVE PREFERRED TO BUY DIRECTLY FROM THE DISTRIBUTOR.
    a) for the price savings
    b) for the added certainty of warranty coverage in the event something goes wrong

    You offer NOTHING for this “service” and make thousands more. If you can’t see how has a negative impact on the hobby, I give up. Keep screwing over your fellow pinball enthusiasts. Have at er!

    #106 1 year ago

    It goes like this. You ask exorbidant price for machine, you look like a douchebag to everyone who isn't a douchebag!
    Cheers!

    #107 1 year ago
    Quoted from Chambahz:

    Lastly, that same buyer if he/she ever has any warranty issues since they’re not the original buyer.

    I have yet to see a story on Pinside of Stern denying service to a second buyer. They routinely provide coverage well beyond the (very narrow) terms of the written warranty.

    11
    #108 1 year ago

    I can honestly say I do not understand the LE pinball market. I've never bought an LE an likely never will. In most cases there is a premium version that plays exactly the same. In other cases (like Tron) people have come up with add-on's that essentially make it the same thing (minus the little plack).

    I'm not a big fan of "fake rarity". I can appreciate when something becomes rare like really old baseball cards or comics or old cars... or "one of a kind" works of art. But when a manufacturer says "we are making 500 of these and that's it... and oh btw here is the exact same thing in a slightly different art (often better) package"....fuck them.

    #109 1 year ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    I can honestly say I do not understand the LE pinball market. I've never bought an LE an likely never will. In most cases there is a premium version that plays exactly the same. In other cases (like Tron) people have come up with add-on's that essentially make it the same thing (minus the little plack).
    I'm not a big fan of "fake rarity". I can appreciate when something becomes rare like really old baseball cards or comics or old cars... or "one of a kind" works of art. But when a manufacturer says "we are making 500 of these and that's it... and oh btw here is the exact same thing in a slightly different art (often better) package"....fuck them.

    There is no such thing as "fake rarity". Companies limit production with many products/markets. Limiting production almost always creates a "buzz".

    If Stern decided to build LE's "last", you'd see a change in the market for them. Many collectors consider early access something they are willing to pay for.

    Nevertheless, I agree that Premium's offer a sweet spot that works for most folks.

    snaroff

    #110 1 year ago

    All I know these days in regards to pinball pricing is that buying a pin is far better than putting the same amount of money in a bank hoping to earn interest. I get to play a game I love and then when the time comes that I have a desire to sell it or life needs dictate so, I almost never lose money. Sure, some games go through "Cold Spells" where it feels like the value has gone down, but what other collectible out there seems to just keep going up in value? Classic cars seem to fit the mold as cited a few posts back.

    In my case, buying games "relatively cheap", cleaning them up and playing them for a year or so before moving them on allows me to keep fueling my hobby. Have I bought some duds - sure. Games I paid too much for or games that were basket cases that ended up costing too much in the end - sure.

    But overall, it does seem like the value keeps going up over time.

    Just my 2 cents. (Next week that will be worth 3 cents)

    #111 1 year ago

    Those that are simply scalping and is their only intent are d bags. There is no real risk when deposits are refundable, and they increase end costs to those that really want to own the game. Parasites.

    They help push others that truly want the game to preorder sight unseen however, which is a whole other issue in itself.

    The question isn’t can you do it. It’s should you do it? Again, this is when intent is purely scalping. Don’t try to lump anything else into it.

    #112 1 year ago
    Quoted from Chambahz:

    You continue to be as thick as possible, addressing only the piece that works in your favour.
    The buyer obviously is “content” with the purchase and possibly even more so since they have acquired a hard to get LE.
    But EVEN WITHOUT INTERVIEWING THEM, I can tell you with absolute certainty: THEY WOULD HAVE PREFERRED TO BUY DIRECTLY FROM THE DISTRIBUTOR.
    a) for the price savings
    b) for the added certainty of warranty coverage in the event something goes wrong
    You offer NOTHING for this “service” and make thousands more. If you can’t see how has a negative impact on the hobby, I give up. Keep screwing over your fellow pinball enthusiasts. Have at er!

    This is the most ridiculous post on the thread. No one is forcing anyone into the transaction. It's all about WANTS. The buyer isn't getting screwed. Just because you want something and can't get it for the terms you want doesn't mean you got gouged. Gasoline at $10 a gallon during a power outage is price-gouging. Some guy asking $20K for a $10K pinball isn't, unless he completely controls the secondary market and there are no other options to buy. A lot of people in this hobby need to grow up. If you don't like the price, just DONT BUY IT.

    #113 1 year ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    There is no such thing as "fake rarity". Companies limit production with many products/markets. Limiting production almost always creates a "buzz".

    You say there is no fake rarity and then go on to describe exactly what fake rarity is. Creating "buzz" with limited production.

    #114 1 year ago

    It was the flipers back when LE games first came out that showed Gary and Jack that they had left money on the table

    #115 1 year ago

    I think the main problem is when people sell at a profit games they reserved with a distributor that they don't even own, and will cancel if they can't turn a quick profit.

    This happened with RZ - a lot of people saw prices of the AMH go up and got on the list in hopes of turning a quick profit. A few early people did sell their spot at a profit, then it became clear that a significant fraction of the preorders where people that didn't actually intend to take delivery of the game. Once prices fell, many of these people just cancelled their orders and got their deposit back. Spooky responded by making deposits non-refundable. The same thing happened with SW LE - when it was announced I couldn't find one because all distributors were sold out and people were already trying to sell their spot for over MSRP. One podcaster was quite vocal about saying he had multiple games pre-ordered from multiple distributors - all of which he cancelled when he realized he wasn't going to be able to flip them for a quick profit before he even paid. Stern has already responded by trying to make deposits non-refundable and by raising LE prices to cut out the middle man. This hurts those of us who actually buy these games to take delivery of them.

    #116 1 year ago

    There were times when tron Le in box was 7 k out the door. I did not have the money then.

    I sure do hope they do a tron vault.

    My point was that even though they were 7k. They sold but not super fast. Not like they would today.

    I don't know what my point is.

    Tron.

    #117 1 year ago

    Didn't I throw this in a thread already???? Just my thoughts that the market is being pushed up by a few dealers as I see more unpopular EM games going towards that $1,000.00 mark in West and East coasts.

    #118 1 year ago
    Quoted from Azmodeus:

    There were times when tron Le in box was 7 k out the door. I did not have the money then.
    I sure do hope they do a tron vault.
    My point was that even though they were 7k. They sold but not super fast. Not like they would today.
    I don't know what my point is.
    Tron.

    Tron LE NIB was like $5400.

    #119 1 year ago

    Every collector hobby has people complaining about how high the prices are because of all DIRTY PRICE GOUGERS.

    But you don't have to play their dirty little game.

    Here's what you do:

    Suppose someone puts a mint 1970 Plymouth Roadrunner up for sale at $70,000.

    You walk up to him and say, "That car only cost $2900 brand new in 1970! You're a dirty PRICE GOUGER!!"

    Then you say "Poopy pants! Poopy pants!! The dirty rotten price gouger has poopy pants!"

    Then the guy says, "You know what? You're right. I'm ashamed of myself and my dirty rotten price gouging. Seeing as how the car has 15,000 miles on it and is not new anymore, you can have it for $1,450, half of what it cost new."

    You probably thought the the market value of all collector items in the free market is the current general agreed price between buyers and sellers.

    WRONG. That's what the PRICE GOUGERS say to TRICK you.

    Instead of going along with their diabolical tricks, try the method I suggested above.

    *** ALERT! NOT A SERIOUS POST. ***

    #120 1 year ago

    Pinball Selling Rules:

    There are no rules.

    Pinball Buying Rules:

    Don't buy it if you don't want it.

    #121 1 year ago
    Quoted from Grayman_EM:

    Didn't I throw this in a thread already???? Just my thoughts that the market is being pushed up by a few dealers as I see more unpopular EM games going towards that $1,000.00 mark in West and East coasts.

    Sellers cannot "push a market up."

    The only way that sellers can push the market is if they ALL make an agreement to jack prices and restrict supply.

    BUYERS and SELLERS set prices. Not one or the other.

    Dealer prices don't mean anything. Those prices are them fishing for Johnnie New Guy. Do you buy from dealers?

    Back in the old days, model railroading was a HUGE hobby.

    But the average age of model railroaders is now 64 and they are dying off.

    The demand for model railroading crap is falling off and the prices are tanking. You can't give a lot of that stuff away for free now.

    So why don't the model railroad vendors get out their magic wand and PUSH THE PRICES UP?

    *** ALERT! A SERIOUS POST. ***

    -2
    #122 1 year ago

    This post was obviously absurd.

    And it still got down voted.

    Sigh.

    -1
    #123 1 year ago
    Quoted from minnesota13:

    Pinball Selling Rules:
    There are no rules.
    Pinball Buying Rules:
    Don't buy it if you don't want it.

    I concur!
    However, I shall reiterate..
    You ask exorbidant price for machine, you look like a douchebag to everyone who isn't a douchebag!
    Cheers!

    #124 1 year ago
    Quoted from ejacques:

    All I know these days in regards to pinball pricing is that buying a pin is far better than putting the same amount of money in a bank hoping to earn interest. I get to play a game I love and then when the time comes that I have a desire to sell it or life needs dictate so, I almost never lose money. Sure, some games go through "Cold Spells" where it feels like the value has gone down, but what other collectible out there seems to just keep going up in value? Classic cars seem to fit the mold as cited a few posts back.
    In my case, buying games "relatively cheap", cleaning them up and playing them for a year or so before moving them on allows me to keep fueling my hobby. Have I bought some duds - sure. Games I paid too much for or games that were basket cases that ended up costing too much in the end - sure.
    But overall, it does seem like the value keeps going up over time.
    Just my 2 cents. (Next week that will be worth 3 cents)

    yikes.

    #125 1 year ago
    Quoted from minnesota13:

    Pinball Selling Rules:
    There are no rules.
    Pinball Buying Rules:
    Don't buy it if you don't want it.

    +1!!

    #126 1 year ago

    Pro tip:

    Some of the stuff I wrote above is not serious.

    #127 1 year ago
    Quoted from Chambahz:

    You continue to be as thick as possible, addressing only the piece that works in your favour.
    The buyer obviously is “content” with the purchase and possibly even more so since they have acquired a hard to get LE.
    But EVEN WITHOUT INTERVIEWING THEM, I can tell you with absolute certainty: THEY WOULD HAVE PREFERRED TO BUY DIRECTLY FROM THE DISTRIBUTOR.
    a) for the price savings
    b) for the added certainty of warranty coverage in the event something goes wrong
    You offer NOTHING for this “service” and make thousands more. If you can’t see how has a negative impact on the hobby, I give up. Keep screwing over your fellow pinball enthusiasts. Have at er!

    Still making assumptions I see.

    How do you know they were looking for price savings and not paying a higher price for the convenience. For instance, I always fly United. One of their hubs are located in Newark. I spend more flying with them, but it saves me a ton of time in finding what I need. When I stay at Disney, I just go with whatever is on their website. I could save some by checking out all different sites, but I don't feel like wasting my time.

    The warranty is being extended to the 2nd owner.

    Here is just a wild and crazy idea...STOP MAKING FALSE ACCUSATIONS AND ASSUMPTIONS!!!

    -1
    #128 1 year ago

    Yeah. No shit. If what he is saying is the Wall Street format, then the end is probably close.

    #129 1 year ago

    If someone wants it and they are willing to pay for it, then why not? The market will dictate pricing. It's a game, not a life saving medication, clean water, fuel, etc, so I say get what you can for it.

    #130 1 year ago
    Quoted from StylesBitchly:

    I concur!
    However, I shall reiterate..
    You ask exorbidant price for machine, you look like a douchebag to everyone who isn't a douchebag!
    Cheers!

    Every time I read a thread like this in a collecting forum, it reinforces my decision to get the absolute maximum amount of money for everything I sell.

    #131 1 year ago
    Quoted from irobot:

    Sellers cannot "push a market up."

    The only way that sellers can push the market is if they ALL make an agreement to jack prices and restrict supply.

    BUYERS and SELLERS set prices. Not one or the other

    Your model assumes educated buyers and constraint.

    Pinball is in a boom - so both of those things are lost. New money floods in without knowing what the trend has been... so they overpay. Next guy sees the 'market set' at those overpaid prices... and the cycle continues. Then, the sellers can easily take advantage as the educated buyers are outpaced by over eager or uneducated buyers.

    The 'pure market' model is not so clean when you have long distance buying, fresh money, and lack of knowledge. It's prime for sellers to push prices up and still get the price.

    #132 1 year ago

    If I buy a collector coin for $10,000 and for some reason the bottom drops out and the coin is only worth $4000 in a few years, are these saintly white knights in this thread going to jump in and make my $6,000 loss good out of their own pocket?

    A voluntary good-faith sale of a luxury item is completely disconnected from morality or douchebaggery.

    Seriously, are we supposed to feel real sad because some guy "had to" pay $55,000 for a collector guitar he wanted? Boo hoo!

    #133 1 year ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Your model assumes educated buyers and constraint.
    Pinball is in a boom - so both of those things are lost. New money floods in without knowing what the trend has been... so they overpay. Next guy sees the 'market set' at those overpaid prices... and the cycle continues. Then, the sellers can easily take advantage as the educated buyers are outpaced by over eager or uneducated buyers.
    The 'pure market' model is not so clean when you have long distance buying, fresh money, and lack of knowledge. It's prime for sellers to push prices up and still get the price.

    My model assumes one guy taking money out his pocket and handing it to another guy in exchange for a pinball machine.

    I bought my TZ I guess about 10 years ago on ebay, the auction ran for a week, I think the final price was $2700.

    Why was the price $2700 and not $10,000 or $1,000? What makes any collector item worth any particular price?

    Is the value of the game $6500 now because the buyers are less educated?

    What prices are the pinball fanatics on pinside buying and selling TZs for right now? $2700?

    The stuff in this thread is the same exact talk as in every other "greedy seller" thread on the internet.

    #134 1 year ago
    Quoted from irobot:

    My model assumes one guy taking money out his pocket and handing it to another guy in exchange for a pinball machine.
    I bought my TZ I guess about 10 years ago on ebay, the auction ran for a week, I think the final price was $2700.
    Why was the price $2700 and not $10,000 or $1,000? What makes any collector item worth any particular price?
    Is the value of the game $6500 now because the buyers are less educated?
    What prices are the pinball fanatics on pinside buying and selling TZs for right now? $2700?
    The stuff in this thread is the same exact talk as in every other "greedy seller" thread on the internet.

    Demand curve for collectors goes straight up and down...your post proves it.

    -1
    #135 1 year ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    You say there is no fake rarity and then go on to describe exactly what fake rarity is. Creating "buzz" with limited production.

    So silly. Do you think Audi should make as many RS7's as A7's? The production numbers are a function of actual demand *and* company created buzz factor of owning a limited production car. Stern does the same thing with the LE's. Not a precise science, but expecting a company to make the same number of every product they produce isn't practical in today's world. For good or bad, products aren't "made to order" any more. This is true for mass consumer products as well.

    snaroff

    #136 1 year ago

    It's sad we value money over others. I don't mind someone making some money on providing a service.

    This is the world we now live in.

    #137 1 year ago

    There has to be an agreed on value from both sides for there to be a certain price to it. If buyers don't agree, it sits unsold until the price drops. Now if someone is a good huckster and the buyer is uninformed then anything's possible. I'm cautious anymore and prefer to deal with folks I know or can be vouched for. To quote a fellow pinsider anyone can ask a price.

    #138 1 year ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    So silly. Do you think Audi should make as many RS7's as A7's?

    I don't get your analogy here. An RS7 is a very different car than an A7. Sure the body style is the same but the performance is light years apart (and I owned an A7). Audi will never make as many RS7's because they can not sell as many RS7's.

    A Stern LE and Premium are the same damn game with a different splash of art.

    #139 1 year ago
    Quoted from ASOA:

    When is it not ok to turn a profit in selling a pinball machine that is valuable? If you could sell a game for a large profit would you do it?

    a. Anytime you chose, for any reason.

    b. I sell at market price. I look for comparable machines up for sale, and select a price somewhere in the range.

    c. If you fell hurt because you are a buyer, you should have 3 comparable-machines in your hand ready to chose from.

    If you don't like their price, either walk away, or make an offer. No one is forcing you to buy these machines.

    Pinball machines are not needed to preserve life.

    ----------- price gouging --------- from wiki -- second paragraph ----
    The term is similar to profiteering but can be distinguished by being short-term and localized, and by a restriction to essentials such as food, clothing, shelter, medicine and equipment needed to preserve life, limb and property
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    #140 1 year ago

    Price Gouging or Re-sellers "or a flipper". Are sometime their own worst enemy. Here is an example. A local store which has used pins on sale here in Edmonton picked up a Sing A Long. I saw the ad for non working Gottlieb $375. It is just a level above rough. With in 2 weeks they currently have the pin for sale at $1900.00. The ad is on the same website they bought it from, now, to defend the new owner the game has a new backglass, new rubbers, and is fully working. They had to haul it from 2.5 hours away, then serviced it, and also the touched up the front panel. But to post at $1900.00.

    #141 1 year ago
    Quoted from ASOA:

    Definition:
    Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to when a seller spikes the prices of goods, services or commodities to a level much higher than is considered reasonable or fair, and is considered exploitative, potentially to an unethical extent.

    I think people keep confusing price gouging and flipping on this thread. The OP isn't asking if its ok or not to flip a game, the guy is asking about pricing something more than whats traditionally asked for a game to a very high extent. To that I say, people can price things at whatever rate they want. If a guy lists a Raven for 15k it doesn't mean its going to sell at that price. But we here at Pinside will make fun of them for it, either on their thread or on the craigslist laughs thread.

    #142 1 year ago

    Sell your wares for whatever you want, it's a free country. Personally I wouldn't flip a NIB game I had no intention of keeping to a friend or family member, and I certainly wouldn't do it here for the same reason: I don't want to dick over people I give a shit about. I'd hit up ebay and craigslist instead

    #143 1 year ago

    Pinball prices are high, Yes.
    market dictates price.
    Not gouging though.

    Gouging is $20 waterbottles at Woodstock ‘99. Ouch, had no choice

    #144 1 year ago

    This topic comes down to ethics. Whats not ethical for me might be ethical for another. Personally, I wouldn't buy an NIB LE game with the sole intentions of selling it for 3-4xs what I paid for it, but hey thats just me.

    #145 1 year ago

    Talk aboot etiquette...carguments ?

    Quoted from snaroff:

    I'd love to pickup a Honda Civic Type-R,...

    Quoted from snaroff:

    Do you think Audi should ....

    #146 1 year ago

    Yikes what? I buy games at a price that makes sense to me at the time, I play them for a while and then I sell them, usually below what the pinside average is. If the market dictates that that price has risen since I bought it, what is the problem with that?

    Should I sell my Twilight zone for $800 just because that's what I paid for I back in 1999?

    #147 1 year ago
    Quoted from ejacques:

    Yikes what? I buy games at a price that makes sense to me at the time, I play them for a while and then I sell them, usually below what the pinside average is. If the market dictates that that price has risen since I bought it, what is the problem with that?
    Should I sell my Twilight zone for $800 just because that's what I paid for I back in 1999?

    If you want to be my hero, and get exhibitor passes for you and guest as well as lodging for any 5 Texas Pinball Festivals over the next 10 years, then the answer is yes, sell me your TZ for $800. Only me though!

    Marcus

    P.S. Serious answer to your question, "Of course not. Sell it for market price."

    #148 1 year ago

    Haha...if I was anywhere near Texas...hmm

    Quoted from Xerico:

    If you want to be my hero, and get exhibitor passes for you and guest as well as lodging for any 5 Texas Pinball Festivals over the next 10 years, then the answer is yes, sell me your TZ for $800. Only me though!
    Marcus
    P.S. Serious answer to your question, "Of course not. Sell it for market price."

    #149 1 year ago
    Quoted from ejacques:

    Yikes what? I buy games at a price that makes sense to me at the time, I play them for a while and then I sell them, usually below what the pinside average is. If the market dictates that that price has risen since I bought it, what is the problem with that?
    Should I sell my Twilight zone for $800 just because that's what I paid for I back in 1999?

    I don’t give a crap what you sell your games for.

    Yikes is for the ridiculous statement that you made in the first sentence!

    I was trying to be nice and not say how stupid that was. Honestly, you can’t believe pinball machines are better than savings accounts

    10
    #150 1 year ago
    Quoted from fisherdaman:

    This topic comes down to ethics. Whats not ethical for me might be ethical for another. Personally, I wouldn't buy an NIB LE game with the sole intentions of selling it for 3-4xs what I paid for it, but hey thats just me.

    It’s amazing that people can’t see the difference right?

    We are taking about the narrow instance of someone buying a NibLe for the sole purpose of flipping it for a profit.

    If you are in the business of pinball? That’s one thing i guess. As a hobbyist? I don’t think so.

    Some people have zero problem with it.

    I would let somebody else have the pin and hope it went to a pinhead that really wanted to play it and enjoy it

    Some people aren’t wired that way. They don’t give a shit about the next guy

    All it’s doing is driving up the future prices for Stern

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    ModFather Pinball Mods
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