For me its about intent, which admittedly is hard to gauge.

Scenario 1: Somebody buys a pinball machine because they're excited or passionate about the title. They play the crap out of it but for whatever reason discover it doesn't work for them. They go to sell the machine and the market has gone crazy and its worth a crapload. They sell it for said crapload and its way more than they paid. I've got no problem with this. Good for them, the pinball gods smiled on them.

Scenario 2: Somebody buys a pinball machine to take advantage of manufactured scarcity only intending to gouge their fellow collectors. I don't like this at all and thinks its a dick move. I make note of seller and won't do business with them in the future.

Scenario 3: Somebody buys a machine because they're excited but the market explodes before they get it - so they sell it at the elevated price before opening. I still think this is a craptastic move but not as bad as #2.

I know many if not most will disagree with me. But thats how I see it. This is supposed to be fun... speculators intentionally screwing fellow collectors is not fun.

If Stern raised the price to 10K for the IMLE, they still would have sold out in 24 hours.

I think it’s BS, why do people do this? If you bought the game to flip for a profit YOU make this hobby a joke, it’s all about money huh. Take your IMLE and shove it buddy.

I'm not sure about that? Just because a few people are willing to spend $10k or more for the game doesn't mean that 500 buyers are.

The term "price gouging" usually applies to basic goods and necessities. If you try to price gouge a pinball machine you just get laughed at or people walk away. If someone has enough money and not enough brains to buy a nearly immaculate machine at the highest price possible, then that's their own damn fault.

My LE was just shy of $10k by a few dollars... Paid MAP price, tax, $100 delivery and $100 to secure #12...

NIB LE (and prem) are already well over 10k outside of America.... which is were over half of the LEs went. You're kidding yourselves if you think they wouldn't sell at 10k.

The $10k wasn't referring to overseas pricing as they are used to paying more. The big reason that they sold out so fast is because the price delta over the premium was around $1500 and in this case Stern actually gave people upgrades that made paying extra worth it. If that price delta was $3k I think a lot more buyers would have opted for the Premium.

If people are willing to pay $10k for 500 games than I hope Stern raises prices on their next LEas that extra money helps Stern subsidize my Pro

Also, is there a huge difference between the LE and Premium from a game play perspective? Seems to me that LE buyers in general are more on the "pinball is a collectible" side so would be accustomed with the economics of collectibles. But if you're just in it for the game, it seems like there's no shortage of Premiums available.

I also think speculatively buying LE's can be a dangerous game to play (e.g., WWE LE).

Scenario 2 is a total dick move. Some people are ok with being dicks.

This is a relatively small hobby. The A holes will always be here though. The vast majority of the good far outweighs the bad

For me it's simple: do what you're gonna do, and if you do it in public don't be surprised if people have an opinion.

The only thing I can't stand are the people who can't take criticism. If you're gonna flip your LE and make a couple grand for the effort of emailing someone to hold a game for you, then suck it up and take your lumps when some people mock you or downvote your post. Boo hoo, poor you.

I love the juxtaposition of "price gouging" and "etiquette" in the thread title. Like it's ok to purposefully screw the community that is responsible for supporting the manufacturers and distributors.

There's a difference between capitalism and figuratively slapping people in the face. I don't care about this whole "well, you should have prepared so take it on your chin for sitting on your hands" crap. Some distributors in this community run nearly like ticketbots that buy all the concert tickets before fans even have a chance to purchase them, jack the price up, and then say "Oh, sorry you were slow. Here's the price above MSRP. Pay up or move on. Got 10 other people ready to buy after you." It's a flagrant bad move, and it's not cool to bite the hand that feeds.

Bunch of crap. Morally and ethically it's wrong, and it's getting to a new low to see community members doing it. Trust me, some of us are watching, and I personally will not do business with anyone doing that crap - new or used games.

Karma will come back, and I hope it pays those in this community guilty of gouging 10 fold over. Some day, the "oooo ahhhh shiney" mentality of this resurgence in pinball WILL stop, and people will get tired of being taken advantage of.

2 questions for you:

- what are your feelings on Tron LE selling for double what people paid retail?

- what does the demand curve look like for collectibles?

Still trying to figure out how it's 'gouging' if you're honest about the condition and flaws of what you're selling and some dope still decides to pay way way over market price. Ethically? The market price was 'set' by demand, which has been on an upward spike for a while, which sounds to me like demand is still increasing. We didn't go from 500$ STTNGs from closing down Putt-Putts and Tilt Arcades in the late 90s to 5k STTNG today without a WHOLE BUNCH of people "overpaying" and normalizing the sale of those games at higher prices over time..

https://www.pcgs.com/news/what-determines-value-in-collectibles

I think it's ridiculous, and I think some people have more dollars than sense.

That's a completely subjective question with so many ranges, variables, and possibilities that there is no way I could narrow it down to a "one answer covers all" statement. #1 issue of X-men vs a signed Babe Ruth Card vs a 67 StringRay Split-window, vs a screen-worn Indian Jones fedora, vs James Dean's Porsche, vs etc.... These are collectibles far above and beyond what a simple man can afford. AFM and MM were considered the most valued pins for a while not because of their "limited edition" status but because they were FUN and good music, callouts, and were enjoyed by most in the community. Now, a game is expensive because it has "super duper ooooo shiney" gimmicks first, and then MAYBE it is a fun and enjoyable game.

So what's being implied is it's ok to take advantage of "some dope" for the sake of making money. I don't agree with that. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Ask Mylan CEO Heather Bresch how it worked out when the EpiPen went from $100 to $600 for a two pack, and that drew national scrutiny from everyone to include Congress. People were outraged, but hey, it's "capitalism". Least she was honest about "its condition and flaws" - same drug as you have been buying before, just with a 500% increase to the price.

The price jumps from 2012 to 2018 are WAY more accelerated than anything from 1998 to 2011. Who should we blame: people who purposefully try to make money hand over fist, or people who just "have to have it" and pay for games impetuously, causing - as you described - an upward spike for a while?

Who's more guilty? I know I've done my fair share of buying, when a JM was a whopping $1200 or $1500 for JP was considered "insane money".

If the average selling price of a game climbs from increased demand and the number of games is fixed, that's the free market doing what it always does and always will do. That I'm perfectly ok with. If someone sees value in a pin wildly overpriced than go for it I guess. I've been known to pay more than some for wedgeheads. Now for getting a new LE PIN from Stern or any other company I don't see the value in it for me. If others do, awesome. Just not my speed. I got a MET pro 2 years ago with a color dmd and no other mods and I love it, but it's not the same for everyone. I'm holding out for a few other pins now though I'm itching to play IM. To each their own.

Paragraph 1:

I agree with you. It's why I won't pay 10k for a Tron LE.

Paragraph 2:

The demand curve goes straight up and down for collectors. Price is not a factor for the collector market.

Paragraph 3:

There is a need for epipen...there is only a want for pinball machines.

Remember, when demand outstrips supply, price goes up. When supply outstrips demand, price goes down.

We have the right to pursue happiness. If that for you is making an obnoxious amount of money, then go for it in an honest manner and peace be with you. No ethics or moral law involved as long as you're being honest and not manipulating or "price gouging". What's price gouging? Demanding people pay more solely because there's a shortage on something that you have that others need for survival- medicine, food, water, maybe safety, security... That's a form of theft and you'll need to get right with God on that.

However anyone trying to ague that Pinball is comparable to medicine, food, water is being silly. Pricing a pinball machine obnoxiously high might be stupid.... or crazy, or wasting everyone's time,... or brilliant! But as long as you're representing it without lying it's definitely not unethical.

I really don’t care what people do with their property. If I think it’s a fair price I’ll pay it. If I don’t think it’s a fair price I won’t pay it. As long as someone doesn’t lie and portray what they are selling as something it is not. Don’t try to tell me it’s never been routed when the coin door paint is rubbed off where the quarters go in. Educate yourself on what a good value is and you won’t get ripped off. As far as kids toys are concerned I would never buy from a scalper. If I can’t get it fairly then the kid doesn’t get it period.

In 1970, I paid $900.00 for a 1959 Corvette. In hind site, I bought it cheap, drove the daylights out of it, and sold it cheap. Then prices started moving up. In 1981, I paid $10,000.00 for a 1960 Corvette. It was a little nicer than the '59 I had, but $10,000.00 nicer? The market said so. I sold the '60 in 1986 for $14,000.00. In hind site, I should have kept it as that same Vette, today, would sell for $60,000.00

Did somebody get gouged? No. Nobody "needs" a Corvette. We pay willingly. Until the price bumps up beyond what we can afford to pay. And then we bitch that we are being gouged.

I want my '60 Vette back but the price gougers are keeping it from me. The price should have stayed the same price that I sold it for 30 years ago. It's not fair.

What occurs more often in our hobby?

1. Seller misrepresents the condition of a pin using a sly choice of words or conveniently cropped pics or pics taken in the dark.

2. Buyer tells naive seller that their HUO TOTAN (or whatever) isn't worth a dime over $500 before buying.

3. Seller lists a pin for way over market value and buyer happily pays that price.

Funny to me how discussions around ethics often come up around the last point.

I met a couple people off Pinside a few years ago...they warned me how the buyers all have sob stories. Kid has cancer, wife is dying, etc...then 2 days later, the game will be listed for sale. He said they will come up with any sob story to get the price down.

You're seriously comparing something I LITERALLY HAVE TO BUY SIX OF A YEAR....TO MAKE SURE MY KID STAYS ALIVE....

To a motherf... pinball machine? Yeah, I'm done listening to anything you have to say on this subject. Get outta here.

Spot on, as usual.

Jack and Garry might be able to help you with the answer

Ah... that would be a '63 Split Window Coupe. StringRay, of course. The split went away in '64. The '67s claim to fame was the 427 big block L-88. And there was also the Tri-Power in '67.

I find it slightly scumbag-ish, particularly if you use your podcast to hype a game that you're also flipping on eBay for $13,000.

You think? But that's why he calls the people who listen to his podcast "chumps". Including the Stern marketing team.

It's hard to get past the first 5 minutes lately which is when i usually x out. I'm gonna have to retract my Twipy Vote Kman!

I do respect the passion and time spent for whatever reasons but its time to cut back on the "take yourself so serious" act.

SDTM for the win!

There are a lot of sketchy folks in this hobby and industry.

Most were here well before the advent of the internet. The car salesman stereotype has nothing on these people.

It seems a lot of people are basing their opinions off mostly Maiden LE since that's the flavor of the month and their concerns for the quick flip practice, but realistically addressing the OP's question, anyone that feels selling for a profit is unethical (I consider this at any point in the lifetime of the pin), are you applying this across the board to used games that are currently selling for well above the original MSRP? Because if so, the majority of anything on the marketplace will fall into this category.

Just looking through the first 2 pages on the marketplace from current distributors and 3rd party sellers, the following rough percentage price increases/decreases are as follows.

600%
85%
183%
-12%
-18%
53%
196%
150%
200%
75%
198%
120%

Iron Maiden LE is 53% basing it off the highest pin for sale which is $13,500. The one in which everyone is blowing up the thread is at 34%.

Before you know it someone is going to call the pin they are selling a "real creme puff" and owned by a 1st grade teacher

I deal with people who price their games "fairly" and I avoid those seeking quick profits.

So there are people I've dealt with over and over and people I've never dealt with and never will. Works for me.

I think the majority of you guys are looking at a regular scenario, wherein anybody sells one of their current titles for "x" amount, where "x" = any amount higher than current market price.
In that case, I say" Have at er!" Market will dictate how much you get. If you profit, good on ya. Odds are if you sell it too low, someone else may flip it for more money anyway.
In this example however (Iron Maiden NIB LE), dirtbags are jumping on limited edition versions of a pin with the sole intention of screwing someone else over by marking it up.
Most manufacturers are ok supporting resold games, but now you're also potentially jacking someone's warranty. Someone who GENUINELY wanted to buy this title, but you managed to contact the distributor first.

Once again, this practice is perfectly legal so nobody will get in trouble -but then jumping on to a forum and defending your greedy practice, INSULTING the very people who love the hobby (some of whom very likely missed out on owning an LE), is further evidence of a severe lack of class.

And the excuse of: "well it's a collectible toy so it's ok" is garbage when you're explaining that on a forum of people who love collectible toys!

I've personally sold over 30 pins and never made a profit...I've broke even on occasions....I'm only here to play pinball...if I need extra money I work extra hours at my job......that being said if you can make profit selling pins then kudos to you...

I did, and here's why.

You know my intentions were not to belittle your situation. I don't know you or your family situation prior to that post. Don't act like I did it intentionally.

You and I are done unless you come to me in a PM. We are not doing this here.

So you say market will dictate the price...but then you get mad at people for selling their LEs when the market has shown its worth more than distributor pricing....

Talk about one big contradiction.

Needs: food, water, shelter, most medications, clothing

Wants: pinball machines, tv, computer, concerts, sporting events, corvettes

If you can’t tell the difference between the two.....then I don’t know what to tell you.

I sold some games for more then I paid, but I sold most games for less then I paid. So if you want to sell a pin for more then you paid and someone will pay it, do it because mainly it will be the opposite happening or you break even.

Not sure why you think there is any proper rules to this, just get what you can get.

I sold some games for more then I paid, but I sold most games for less then I paid. So if you want to sell a pin for more then you paid and someone will pay it, do it because mainly it will be the opposite happening or you break even.

Not sure why you think there is any proper rules to this, just get what you can get.

That isn't why he is mad.

Read the post again.

Principle is the same whether it is a need or a want. Just because you can overcharge does not mean you should. This is a community, yet more and more people try to treat it like they're distributors and charge dist-level pricing.

Of the 22+ machines I have sold or traded since 2012, I think I made a $100 profit. Everything else I lost money on, because I'm not some asshole that charges people 25% surcharges because I installed a couple LEDs, wiped the playfield with some novus, and used a sharpie to "professionally repair the inserts".

Topic drained. I am not going back and forth impetuously on this.

That being said, I know a couple people now I'll never buy anything from, and if I sell to those said people, I'll inflate the price by at least 50% due to me being honest about its condition and flaws hoping they're "some dope that overpays anyways". I'll even use fresh spit to clean the glass right before they come over and claim a "shop job".

Nope. You're not going to get to hide the fact that you made a poor argument by scurrying away to PM.

It's got nothing to do with me. It's got everything to do with it's a DUMB argument in the first place to compare those two things. I would have called you on that regardless of my personal situation. One is a lifesaving medication, and even THEN it's price was NOT DICTATED BY SUPPLY AND DEMAND. It's not some herculean task to manufacture it, the materials cost didn't suddenly skyrocket, they just completely decided to dick people over for more money. There wasn't some massive spike in need for it, or production issues. Just some greedy pricks that saw their only competitor get shut out by the government, and took massive advantage of that.

Pinball is a LUXURY item. It's required by *nobody* to live or be productive. It *is* extremely difficult to manufacture say...oh... a brand new Addams Family..out of thin air. If you could even find all the parts and hardware to do it. So there is an almost non-existent supply side for extremely popular out-of-production games, and the demand side can be from "next to nothing" to "ungodly absurd", and zip all over the place because a game showed up in a big webcast tournament, or because the designer got arrested for something unsavory. That's my point. If someone wants to pay 9k for a players condition AF, and they're happy, and they understand the condition of the machine, then what you're really complaining about is the fact that other people just have more money to spend than you do, and you don't have enough leverage to move the needle. You're just foisting your own dissatisfaction onto a seller.

You don't want to support people selling games for high prices? Okay. Then STOP BUYING THEM....but nobody OWES you a cheap machine.

People should sell their games for whatever they want, high or low. Ultimately, if you find a buyer that is willing to pay, then the deal is legit.

What's lame is making an excuse for high pricing. Save the sob story!

But I know what he wrote, but it isn’t what he said.

He said the there is a market rate...then gets mad at the market rate.

You do realize it’s a free country, right?

Sellers are free to list at any price they want. Buyers are free to purchase at any price they want. These are NIB machines...there’s no lying about the condition.

It comes down to a voluntary transaction between two private parties.

I’m still waiting to hear how you have the moral high ground to dictate a transaction you don’t have an interest in.

Do with yours means, do deals that you find fair, don’t think if your seller is taking profit, just enjoy your buy, seize the day, you don’t know what can happen tomorrow.

Maybe he doesn’t like hearing about people in this hobby who screw over other people in this hobby.

How does one get screwed over when they voluntarily enter into the transaction?

No one is being forced to purchase a luxury item, that at the end of the day, is a toy.

Unless force is involved, there is no way screwing can occur.

Your post underlines why you CAN sell an item for far more than it's realistic market worth - the "gotta have it now" mentality. Frankly, I know lots of people that are proud that they paid far above list price on an item for the "status" of being one of the first to have it or one of the few to have something. That's not a mentality that I have, but to each his own. That being said, if some dipshit with more money that common sense is willing to pay through the nose for something, then free that fool from their money!