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(Topic ID: 63608)

Price check: Big Bang Bar


By DirtySouth

7 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 88 posts
  • 42 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by Magic_Mike
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 88 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 7 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

To reproduce BBB now would cost him *more* than what it did back in 2004, because now he would be starting from scratch on tooling and reproducing parts.

Agreed. This is why Kingpin never materialized. He couldn't reverse engineer the boards (or at least that is what everyone has been told). Sure would be nice for a few dozen more examples to be floating around making it to shows though.

#52 7 years ago
Quoted from RawleyD:

it's worth so much now imo just because it's rare.

Being rare does add value. But if that was the only criteria my Lost In Space would be worth ten grand.

Kim
http://www.WrongCrowdProductions.com/

#53 7 years ago

There is a BBB for sale in Europe and the are asking bids starting at 18K (Euro).

Quoted from TigerLaw:

He couldn't reverse engineer the boards

I never understood why Gene took the difficult route. He knew it would be hard to get the Capcom boards, or specific chips, replicated. He took that route since he saw a huge market for Capcom spare parts. Not sure there is so much demand. I think it would have been way cheaper to just reprogram the whole game for a different platform. Then Stern or JJP, or who knows may step up, could easily take both BBB and KP in production, if they would want to.

#54 7 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Gene bought the majority of Capcom's BBB parts waaaaaaayy back in 1996, for pennies on the dollar!
As a result, he saved a small fortune in BBB production.
To reproduce BBB now would cost him *more* than what it did back in 2004, because now he would be starting from scratch on tooling and reproducing parts.
And for what? Just to reproduce another 30 to 50 games? Not worth it!
It would also probably be around $12K. Twelve thousand dollar games don't sell like hot cakes.
Good example, a good majority of Pinsiders still have MM on their wishlist.

50 games? Nah, I think he could easily sell 300 or more at $8500

#55 7 years ago

$18k

#56 7 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

50 games? Nah, I think he could easily sell 300 or more at $8500

Easily sell 300 at $8500, huh?

Gene *barely* got the BBBs he made out the door at $4500. Did you know that?

Afterwards, despite the huge success of BBB, Gene could *barely* get a measly 150 people to sign up for KingPin at $8500.

#57 7 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Easily sell 300 at $8500, huh?
Gene *barely* got the BBBs he made out the door at $4500. Did you know that?
Afterwards, despite the huge success of BBB, Gene could *barely* get a measly 150 people to sign up for Kingpin at $8500.

That was then, this is now. People are giving Jpop $10k+ for something that doesn't exist... and for all we know never will. 250 Predators sold before people knew much about it. Jack is selling Hobbit for $8k, which wont be out till the end of 2014 (maybe) with nothing more than a playfield schematic. Multimorphic is making P3, Heighway is making Full Throttle & more. So - in the context of today's collectors and the money they'll spend on games...you make more BBB's for $8500...you'll sell TONS. It's the nature of our collector mentality - $8500 seems "cheap" these days for a game like BBB.

#58 7 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

That was then, this is now. People are giving Jpop $10k+ for something that doesn't exist... and for all we know never will. 250 Predators sold before people knew much about it. Jack is selling Hobbit for $8k, which wont be out till the end of 2014 (maybe) with nothing more than a playfield schematic. Multimorphic is making P3, Heighway is making Full Throttle & more. So - in the context of today's collectors and the money they'll spend on games...you make more BBB's for $8500...you'll sell TONS. It's the nature of our collector mentality - $8500 seems "cheap" these days for a game like BBB.

As of December *2012*, less than 150 people had signed up for KingPin at the low, low price of $8500.

#59 7 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

As of December *2012*, less than 150 people had signed up for Kingpin at the low, low price of $8500.

I think this is more indicative that people didn't think the game would be done than a want of demand for the title. Kingpin would sell if remade.

#60 7 years ago

Does the price go down once Magic Girl, Raza, Predator and all these other "boutique" pins start rolling out......? I think so....

Raza has 124 total and MG 17 and Predator 250 and they will all be much further advanced with a ton of innovation!

At 25k Nib do we tack on another 1/3rd to that right off the top for Raza and start at 33k?

The whole thing is pretty absurd....imho

#61 7 years ago

It's funny when people say stern should step in on these bigger titles like bbb and kp. Can you imagine how much cheaper feeling they'd be? Wouldn't be close to the same.

#62 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Does the price go down once Magic Girl, Raza, Predator and all these other "boutique" pins start rolling out......? I think so....
Raza has 124 total and MG 17 and Predator 250 and they will all be much further advanced with a ton of innovation!
At 25k Nib do we tack on another 1/3rd to that right off the top for Raza and start at 33k?
The whole thing is pretty absurd....imho

All these games are vaporware until the moment they ship.

It's getting old hearing about all their innovation compared to games that exist and are playable. Put up or shut up

...and actually if they do ever come into existence, their numbers will be so scant that very few will ever get to see or play them - so whatever innovation they contain will be generally irrelevant unless they do some mass produced "standard" edition.

#63 7 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

It's getting old hearing about all their innovation compared to games that exist and are playable. Put up or shut up

...and actually if they do ever come into existence, their numbers will be so scant that very few will ever get to see or play them - so whatever innovation they contain will be generally irrelevant unless they do some mass produced "standard" edition.

Patience Rare! It's coming, some amazing stuff.....maybe John will license some of the IP to the other guys? Who knows........but Raza and MG are coming and maybe he'll do a "standard edition" later, don't know

#64 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Patience Rare! It's coming, some amazing stuff.....maybe John will license some of the IP to the other guys? Who knows........but Raza and MG are coming and maybe he'll do a "standard edition" later, don't know

Kool-Aid *glug glug glug*

Interested to see what he shows at Expo, of course...but realistically - Game #1 isn't done yet & you think Game #2 will be available any time soon? Jack can barely get WOZ out the door with a full staff & full factory operating. I'll be kind and say maybe 2015 for MG and 2017 for RAZA...if I'm wrong, come back and rub it in my face. ...but until then, these games don't exist. BBB exists. BUILD MORE!

#65 7 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I'll be kind and say maybe 2015 for MG and 2017 for RAZA...if I'm wrong, come back and rub it in my face. ...but until then, these games don't exist. BBB exists. BUILD MORE!

His talk is on the "magic of Magic Girl"....maybe it will be complete by then?

Its Raza or bust in 2014! It will get done I love me some grape kool aid....

#66 7 years ago

lets just put this to rest...gene is not doing any more games unless a younger family member with his passion and money or another backing with money steps up to push it forward....basically its not happening ever...bbb and kingpin will always be rare games followed by a mystic about them...even if a miracle happened today it would be 2 years from now to the day games ships for tooling and building of games... what jack pulled off is more amazing then people realize. its still taking him 2 years heading into 3 to get one game done.. jpop probably will be next to finally get there but again it will be 2- 3 years since the day he announced it if he gets there and if he doesnt go broke before he gets there. thankfully we all have these greta games to enjoy that have been made the past 20 years,what the future holds time will tell but nothing will be quick it will continue to be slow going forward.

#67 7 years ago

I owned a BBB from the beginning. We were building a house and moving at the time, so I didn't open the game for several years. By the time I was in a position to open it, I saw some of the prices and thought I should try this game before I pop it open. I went to Lloyd's place in MN where the wife and I put a bunch of games on it. I was SO underwhelmed (and in some ways actually DISliked it) that I put my NIB game up for sale the day I got home. My only regret in selling then is that I sold it on the front end of the price spike. HUO versions are going for several thousand more than I sold my NIB for a couple years ago.

I have almost 30 games, and I don't miss the thought of having BBB one bit. If I had unlimited room for pins, price aside (looking strictly at fun factor), I'd probably come up with at least 50 additional games before I'd look to adding BBB. Just my thoughts.

#68 7 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

BBB exists. BUILD MORE!

Sadly, the pinball manufacturing side of IPB has come to a close:

1. Most of the main individuals that helped Gene on the BBB project, vowed to never work with him again.

2. All of the existing parts have been sold.

3. Financial hardships.

If BBB or KingPin *ever* gets made again, it won't be through Gene.

#69 7 years ago

Gene building 300 or more Big Bang Bar's at $8500 is the ultimate vaporware.

Kim
http://www.WrongCrowdProductions.com/

#70 7 years ago

Yes, gene is done with projects.

#71 7 years ago

Whatever happened to:

Writing a business plan
Designing a game
Soliciting venture capital
Creating a distribution network that will commit to x games
Creating an assembly line and producing amusement machines
Selling produced machines at a profit

Which part of the traditional business model is broken in pinball? Is it that the designers can't write a business plan? Is it that there is no venture capital that believes these plans? What is the problem where people's money is drained out of the industry for years on end awaiting the holy grail of pinball? I just don't get why the designers can't get along with business men and make legitimate competitors to STERN and now JJP.

#72 7 years ago
Quoted from MTPPC:

Soliciting venture capital

Private equity money will virtually never do a pure start up. If there is no existing revenue they have little interest. Even with existing revenue, banks will not really loan you money these days unless you don't need it and have a personal guarantee that will cover the amount borrowed.

#73 7 years ago
Quoted from MTPPC:

Whatever happened to:

Writing a business plan
Designing a game
Soliciting venture capital
Creating a distribution network that will commit to x games
Creating an assembly line and producing amusement machines
Selling produced machines at a profit

LTG : )

#74 7 years ago
Quoted from MTPPC:

Whatever happened to:
Writing a business plan
Designing a game
Soliciting venture capital
Creating a distribution network that will commit to x games
Creating an assembly line and producing amusement machines
Selling produced machines at a profit
Which part of the traditional business model is broken in pinball? Is it that the designers can't write a business plan? Is it that there is no venture capital that believes these plans? What is the problem where people's money is drained out of the industry for years on end awaiting the holy grail of pinball? I just don't get why the designers can't get along with business men and make legitimate competitors to STERN and now JJP.

u know someone with $5-$10 million that wants to invest in a start up? im sure jpop jack or the preditor guys would have loved to meet him instead of dealing with hundreds of people investing they could have delt with one

#75 7 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

u know someone with $5-$10 million that wants to invest in a start up? im sure jpop jack or the preditor guys would have loved to meet him instead of dealing with hundreds of people investing they could have delt with one

+1.

Angel investors tend to sway towards startups that have future mass market high growth potential.

Pinball is yesterday's technology for a niche target group no matter how much powdercoating, LEDs or color displays you tack on.

Unless you are prepared to radically change the design of what a pinball machine consists of to keep up with evolving tech, the masses just aren't going to bite. And how far can you "evolve" a pinball machine before you alienate your existing market?

Boutique mini production runs using the prepaid model are the best we can hope to see in pinball in terms of "investment".

#76 7 years ago

Too much.

I think I would rather buy 4 NIB Stern Pro machines for the money.

#77 7 years ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

I owned a BBB from the beginning. We were building a house and moving at the time, so I didn't open the game for several years. By the time I was in a position to open it, I saw some of the prices and thought I should try this game before I pop it open. I went to Lloyd's place in MN where the wife and I put a bunch of games on it. I was SO underwhelmed (and in some ways actually DISliked it) that I put my NIB game up for sale the day I got home. My only regret in selling then is that I sold it on the front end of the price spike. HUO versions are going for several thousand more than I sold my NIB for a couple years ago.
I have almost 30 games, and I don't miss the thought of having BBB one bit. If I had unlimited room for pins, price aside (looking strictly at fun factor), I'd probably come up with at least 50 additional games before I'd look to adding BBB. Just my thoughts.

I'm spoiled because I live near people with crazy collections, and since I have fairly easy access to them the zomg factor is pretty minimal. BBB has some cool art and a few nice bells and whistles. But disregarding value I would take a Getaway, BSD, Fish Tales, TZ, and a dozen others first. In fact, it would be a toss up with Pinball Magic.

All these people saying it should be remade because "pinball is meant to be played!" is baloney. Strictly on gameplay and artistic merits this is a high B title at best. If they existed in the thousands no one would care about it and it would trade in the 2 - 3k range. It's the rarity that makes people drool.

#78 7 years ago

Besides being a well done theme and pinball the game has this incredible story to go with it. No one thought the game would ever be done even on a small run. I believe it's still the first pin to be manufactured entirely by a non pin company even though it was just putting together the parts. The risk was entirely on the people that put up the initial money. Once they were produced, everyone wanted it (me included) http://www.habosarcade.com/BigBangBar.htm

Like others mentioned, there isn't a surplus of Capcom boards and parts like there were for BBB. Even if the chip(s) could be reverse engineered and parts were on hand, the people involved with with BBB probably wouldn't come back for Kingpin. It was a once in a lifetime pinball moment in history.

Value aside and judging it for the game it is, it's a blast to play and experience. The difficulty is on par with Scared Stiff. Feature wise there are a lot of modes and things to keep you busy. It's a beautiful game with wild color scheme. The DOTs are some of the best I've seen in a game. Voice work, call outs and music are all excellent. The quality of the remakes were top notch and sturdy. Problematic items on the originals like the alien ball locks were tweaked to perfection on the remakes.

It gets panned because of the high price tag but it's a cool pin but overall it's a solid 8ish all around.

#79 7 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I think this is more indicative that people didn't think the game would be done than a want of demand for the title. Kingpin would sell if remade.

Agreed. If I actually saw some wind in the sails, I'd probably sell something and jump on board. KP is a great game. I don't see anything happening yet so just waiting for now.

#80 7 years ago
Quoted from brent149:

It's funny when people say stern should step in on these bigger titles like bbb and kp. Can you imagine how much cheaper feeling they'd be? Wouldn't be close to the same.

If they were made out of Stern parts, they'd feel like a Stern. I'd expect the original spec Capcom playfield parts would be made, though, since many people think Capcoms are the most solid-playing games out there.

#81 7 years ago

BBB almost became "Biker Babes from Mars." I wonder how much *more* raunchy and risque that game would have turned out?

BBB.jpg

#83 7 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

One made it to the TPF festival

What is this?

#84 7 years ago

I would buy NIB BBB remake of 300, at $8500.
I wouldn't but KP remake at $8500

#85 7 years ago

Texas Pinball Festival.

Kim
http://www.WrongCrowdProductions.com/

#86 7 years ago

Oh I would be in on kingpin. May as well look for Dallas in the Super Bowl .

#87 7 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Private equity money will virtually never do a pure start up. If there is no existing revenue they have little interest. Even with existing revenue, banks will not really loan you money these days unless you don't need it and have a personal guarantee that will cover the amount borrowed.

I know of at least 2 individual investors that would be interested in any investment opportunities that are rooted in a well-researched business plan. It just seems to me that the back of a napkin, pie-in-the-sky dream can only be sold to a certain type of individual. If people are serious about collecting money for a start-up, they can be serious about writing a business plan that outlines it rather than getting a bunch of pin-addicts with more money than brains to throw their cash onto a start-up craps table based solely on one or two persons' reputations.

The reason these entrepreneurs are crowd-sourcing their projects is because they don't want to be burdened by the business realities that real investors demand. This, to me in itself, is the root of long term failure. And don't forget, JJP hasn't yet proven their crowd-sourcing is viable on the long term. Why are they demanding more and more down on their hobbits? The answer lies in their cash flows and it hasn't yet been proven that JJP is anything more than an elaborate ponzi scheme. JJP is at the point where their numbers should be giving them adequate access to capital. If not, that tells something about their numbers.

This is only speculation, but I am not clouded by a fantasy of the Great Pinball Rebirth that seems presented by some thinking on this board.

I wish JJP the most success, but the cash grabs on pre-orders of their second machine does not bode well in my book. I know they planned to do it, but with the sales success of WOZ, it really shouldn't be necessary.

#88 7 years ago
Quoted from MTPPC:

I wish JJP the most success, but the cash grabs on pre-orders of their second machine does not bode well in my book. I know they planned to do it, but with the sales success of WOZ, it really shouldn't be necessary.

Runs of 100 at a time or less, might be the way to go for these companies that don't have any start up capital.

Determine how many machines you can manufacture with your existing finances (no more preorders) without going broke.

Afterwards, once you recoup your profit, make another run or move on to the next title.

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