I don't have any problem with attacking that right orbit shot and have read of some using that Lightning flipper. I use those Williams style narrow-nose aluminum flippers from Pinball Life. It is a hard shot to hit.

My problem with that metal gate is that it is not built correctly, IMO. What I noticed when I first got my Seawitch is when I made the left hand orbit and that ball would be traveling clockwise, when it hit the metal gate the gate would flex due to not enough tension and this flex would mess with ball trajectory and maybe I could hit the ball with the right upper flipper and maybe I could not.

I have thought about making a curved spring loaded gate of which you speak. I have not got that far with figuring out what kind of torsion spring be suitable. But I have some ideas. Just no time to chase the engineering.

What I have done is make a gate from .030 polycarbonate (Lexan) and I made the gate a little longer. This extra length allows me to put a little more tension on the gate. There is not so much tension that ball cannot leave the shooter lane but there is enough tension that the gate does not deflect with a clockwise orbit shot.

The result is the ball will come into range of that upper right flipper a lot more. This gives me a good shot setup to go for a double orbit. I get quite a few double orbits, which is thrill, and I even got a triple orbit one time.

I sent my gate to Kerry Stair with the proposal that he was going to tool up and make some gates with a longer metal piece. But when he learned Cliffy was already making the gates he backed away.

While my poly gate works well, it is still a prototype and looks crappy.

I purchased Cliff's replacement right-orbit flap and I can attest that if properly installed (may require a little bending to get it just right) the right-orbit shot becomes much_ more reliable and fun. Honestly, having a very challenging, hard-to-achieve shot is often more fun than something easy. Anyways, my Seawitch as currently setup is quite a lot of fun. Just wish it had Quicksilver's bonus count-down and whistle on max-bonus.

I stopped reading when you said the best Bally game is Pacman hahahahah

Seawitch used to be on my list but I found the right spinner shot more frustrating, than fun. It just doesn't line up in a satisfying way.

Fun game but I rate lots of others higher.

Each to his own with regard to whatever game you like or don't like. IMHO, Fathom is way overrated play wise, though I wouldn't say that just any classic Stern is better.

Regarding earnings, I can give up to date real world experience on routing classic Bally vs at least one classic Stern. Other than Eight Ball Deluxe, which I place on a pedestal for earnings and gameplay, I haven't found any other classic Bally games that can hold their own against Quicksilver. Yeah, they do fine for a very short time period but fall off the earth with no earnings legs. Just took a refurbished Fathom off location after just a couple of months as it was an earnings dog. This Fathom is beautiful and plays like a dream, didn't matter. It was quite a disappointment. These other classic Bally comparison games were all in excellent condition, too.

I see no reason to flame this. Last year at TPF I got to play a POTC that a vendor had for sale. I was not impressed. A while later, or maybe even the next day, I located another POTC on the floor. It was a completely different experience and was an absolute blast to play because who ever owned it knew how to set it up.

People rave about Taxi. The two I got to play at TPF were crap. Blackout? Crap--leaned to the left. Black Hole? Crap--crappy flippers. I got to finally stand behind a Joker Poker this year; I think the guy had it set on a 2% slope; It was pathetic.

Maybe if Cactus Jacks would steepen the slope on their Fathom I might like it better. Maybe. I don't know. Everybody raves about Eight Ball Deluxe. CJs has a nice EBD. It's OK, but it is not something I lust for. Maybe because it is so brutal. I don't know. I always play it when I stop at CJs and as I get a little better with it I like it a little bit better. But the only reason I would own an EBD is if I could sell it and make some money.

And as I say all of this, I have to allow that it is different when you are in a shop getting your pockets emptied. It has a different flavor than when you are at home hitting that free play start button like a lab rat.

Seawitch is fantastic in my opinion. Mine I have completely restored and I used Cliffys metal gate as well. I have no problem hitting the right orbit. I have owned a bunch of classic Ballys and Sterns. I sold EBD, Fathom, and Centaur after years of play. I kept Seawitch, Meteor, NB, Skateball, and Flash Gordon. Those were long term keepers to me.

I have a Cliffy gate, too. I tweaked it. I put a reverse curve on. It helped. All I'm saying is that I think that metal strip needs to be about one inch longer to provide a little more tension.

I tell you this: Just like Catacomb, the points are in those drop targets. But at least Seawitch will give you good action if you hit that spinner. With Catacomb, that spinner lane can be suicide.

But, yeah, I rate other games higher than Seawitch. My dark horse has been this Catacomb. The more I play it the more I want to play it. I can't wait for you to get yours up and running so we can talk about it.

I know you're kidding but I didn't say that.

From my experience, condition has nothing to do with earnings. Maintenance yes, condition no. Besides, I was talking about historic Stern vs. Bally back when men were men.

Got a picture of how you have your Cliffy reverse curve set up in the game?
Thinking I need to get this for my Seawitches.

Yes my Classic Sterns are like rabbits. They multiply. =)

Awesome that you are routing classic SS games!

I recently had my Big Game on location in our league bar and it did "ok". Maybe a little under 1/2 what my TNA pulled in. League players loved it though super fun game for competitive/dollar games.

Any experience routing a Flash Gordon recently? Once mine is back together (installed a PF overlay) I may put it out at the bar as well.
These games certainly got played to death back in the day, wonder if it's too brutual for modern players?

I've been "routing" some of my personal machines at my work (SW development company with between 50 and 80 employees) over the years, and since I only own Bally/Sterns from 1979 to 1981, I have some experience with which titles were hottest. EBD did just fine, but boy did the flipper rubbers ever wear out fast, always at the tip (from the ball shooting at high-speed SDTM and the player trying to do a save). But honestly, the game that really rocked the casbah earnings-wise was Paragon: It was just hard enough to be challenging without being demoralizing. That game consistently earned 200 to 300 plays a week for several months (I had it set to a quarter a play, or 5 plays for a dollar), and out-earned even some modern dot-matrix titles in the same location.

Are you an operator? Do you operate any classic Bally/Stern? If so, maybe you can offer some titles that might be good earning candidates? From memory and what I recall from my old Playmeter mags, classic Stern isn't represented very well among the top earners of the day. Though given just how limited the distribution was for SEI it may have more to do with what operators could buy vs what was the best earner. Some of the games that are listed as solid earners haven't worked out as well for me.

Back on topic...I did sell a complete very corroded Seawitch several years ago for $50. Everything below the playfield was very rusty. Buyer decided to rebuild it and have it restored, I am sure it cost him a fortune to do that. I get requests all the time to buy classic Stern games, so it is definitely a seller's market.

Flash Gordon is going to be one of the next classic games I place out on location later this year. I don't know of a better way to find out if a game will earn other than to place it and find out. Flash Gordon can't be any more brutal than TNA, ha! Best classic game that I have placed thus far has to be Joker Poker, good strong earnings with legs. I always set my SS games at 50 cents a play. These games are placed next to brand new pins so they have their work cut out for them competing for those quarters.

I plan on routing Star Gazer in the spring of 2019

Yeah, i like classics Stern a lot but there's no comparaison between Stargazer and Fathom, for gameplay, art and quality Fathom is 100 miles ahead
Rare games means they did not sell very well and people were not attracted to play them at that time.
I have a Quicksilver for restoration and gameplay is fast and good but what i like the most is the some kind of weird space sounds

I sold my Stargazer 2 years ago to buy a Stern Star Wars premium. It was a very nice example but playfied art is so so, backglass art very nice, gameplay just ok.
Star Wars is 1000% more fun than Stargazer, it was a good move for me

I don’t think the “rare = bad” formula always works. Especially when you are talking about games from a smaller company with fewer distirbutors and reach like stern.

Agreed. In the case of Star Gazer from what I've read it seems Stern cut the production "prematurely" once Flight 2000 was ready. Luckily for me it seems a lot of the SG production went to Canada before they switched the line to F2K.

Back then though it was a race of new whizbang features and such so the inherent qualities of the gameplay were easy to overlook on the brochure when comparing againt something with speech and a habitrail thingy and an upper playfield, etc.

I've been thinking up a similar solution for the right orbit on my SW. I may try bending some piano wire and see what i can come up with. I replaced mine with a cliffy repro, which has helped... i still think there's a better solution though--something like what you were talking about.

I enjoyed the sounds of Seawitch and she could really get pumping with the drop target sounds overlapping but that damn right orbit shot was just annoying. I also had a lot of balls hop onto the plastic above the left flipper when it would ricochet off of the center bank of drop targets. Sometimes I miss that bitch!

Just got a Seawitch recently. Plays crazy fast and yes the orbit shots are brutal but that's what keeps me coming back. It was a piece of cake, I'd get bore with it. The orbit shots actually remind of a couple brutal shots on Alien.
The game is really good.

Yeah, the ball-hop/jam on the left made the game pretty much a dog on location (jammed EVERY day!) until I added a post in the middle (plastic actually had a hole already in the right spot) to lift the plastic just a hair:

IMG_20170313_113536 (resized).jpg

The orbit shot is worthless anyway unless your spinner works well. 22,000 max for the rollover is a waste of a cool effect. That shot needs a rule change. Drop targets are far more lucrative.

That's funny. I found the game to be WAAAAAAY too easy in the arcade and yet I found myself wanting one everytime I'd see one come up for sale. I have one now in my project queue.

The biggest thing I didn't like about Fathom was the reversed inlane/outlanes. Bally did so much of that in the early 80's and it was a real turn off for me (M/M PacMan included). I also didn't care for it relocking balls during multiball. Beautiful game and I like playing it, but I couldn't see myself keeping one in my collection.

This was way overused. I agree. Once or twice then be done with it.

It's interesting reading about these games being discussed fondly. This era of pinball was exactly why I didn't like pinball when I was a kid and preferred the cooler, newer, video games.

I'll have to look out for these older titles at the upcoming York show and give them some play.

I operated some classic games along side some modern Stern machines (just a few years ago) when a friend of mine had an arcade in my neighborhood. It was only open on weekends. I had about 8 machines there for about 2.5 years. Best earning games were by far GOT and TWD. Those were not owned by me. Only classic game that ALWAYS did good was EATPM.

Had an EBD in there and that game got zero love. Stern ALI earned better than EBD! I know, I still can't believe that one. Hands down best earning classic game was EATPM. It was consistent EVERY SINGLE WEEK/MONTH. My second best earning game was probably WPT, followed closely by TFTC. I did have a Meteor in there for a while and it was .25 cents a play and it did get played a little but it was nowhere close to the newer games or EATPM.

Below is a pic of when we had our league there. I miss "the place".

There ARE currently some classics routed in our town but they do not get much play when up along side the newer Stern machines being released.

theplace_small (resized).png

I currently have a Centaur and a Big Game at my location. Centaur is the worst earner to date, Striker Xtreme got played 3 times as much in a week! Big Game gets twice the play as Centaur does, week after week. Both are dogs compared to the others, our EM's out earn both even at $.25 a play. EATPM is also the surprise earner, week after week it is one of the most played games in our lineup. The other surprise earner is Austin Powers. The modern Stern's are the big winners however as they have the best lighting and gimmicks.

I know there was one out of Saskatoon around May. I thought it was more like $3500 and not $2500.....

GOT and TWD are two of Stern's better earning games over the last few years! EATPM is a very accessible game to the average player, most people can understand it reasonably well, it has some funny stuff in it and the shots aren't hard at all. I considered routing one myself only it is just too easy for tournament and league play. Most strong players can play EATPMs a long time. I had to smile a little bit concerning your account of Stern Ali, it is really a fun game to play though many people have never played one that is setup well.

I don't expect a classic game to outearn or earn what a new Stern does as that would be asking too much. At the same time, I have seen some classic games have a consistent earning pattern that matches up nicely with some of the newer Sterns. One thing is for sure, almost all of those classic Bally/Stern games are much less of an investment than the new stuff.

What do you guys reckon a really nice Viking would go for? Backglass mint, playfield the same and some touch ups on the red on the cabinet.

That's a bally not a stern!

2manypins ain't gonna like this one bit!!!!

(I'll answer anyway to annoy him - $1000-1500 I think. Sounds like an avg. viking bally glasses are always nice)

Anyone want to trade a Fathom (any reasonable condition) for a nice original Medusa + Big Game?

I would possibly be interested if you were local.

Haha. I was going to text you.

I don't care what people talk about but I find it annoying when I am watching a post (or topic) for useful information and then topic gets sidetracked to "wouldn't it be great is Stern started making repros of these titles" or other unrelated BS. Unlike a lot of people on Pinside I value my time and don't like wasting it looking at post that are so far off topic it has nothing to do with original post.

I know some people search Pinside when they are at work - etc. I am self employed and just hate wasting time looking at updates on post to find them useless.

I don't understand what a handful of people like CrazyLevi constantly try to pick a fight with me but that just seems typical of Pinside for what ever reason. If you watch my activity I an typically only actively posting on 6 or 8 topic at any given time trying to extract information that might be helpful to me or trying to help others by answering a question they have.

In any event Bally prices would be great to see also!

Bally glasses always nice? Really?? That isn't the case in my neck of the woods. If your Bally Viking is really that nice with a beautiful backglass and playfield to match you are well north of $2k without a problem. I don't really care much for the gameplay as compared to many other titles of the same era, but Viking is easy to look at.

Oops wrong thread...

Ill take the next SeaSlut that comes along I guess...

Congrats!!! Mind sharing the price with us?

Just to throw my 2 cents in: i paid 700 for my Nine Ball about 2-3 years ago, and 900 for my Seawitch about 4-5 years ago... Both in players/routed condition, but i love them both. I don't forsee selling them any time soon.

Also, John Greatwich is in the process of making repro playfields for Seawitch...sounds like yours may be a good candidate for one.

Sounds about right

I paid 1800 for one in similar condition last month

I think that's exactly what he meant. Bally glasses are always easy to look at.

I gotta go with Brian on this one. Viking is getting harder to find. Beaters sell for $1K nowadays. $2K+ is not out of line for mint/near mint condition.

Well, someone of a more pedantic nature than myself might suggest that asking for Bally prices on a thread about classic Sterns is exactly the kind of "sidetracking" that you dislike!

Personally, I have NO problem with this thread's evolution: It ticks all my interest-boxes, and I have learned something entirely new about classic Sterns (the existence of the Blue Body Cheetah ROMs), which is rare enough to satisfy me. The original question about pricing is ALWAYS a subjective-shit-show anyways: Even the appropriate price for a specific example of a game is subjective, without getting into a "pricing trend" question for a number of realtively quite rare games that many of us have only seen for sale once or twice!

Just my two-cents, and continuing to waste my time on this one thread to the exclusion of all others on Pinside!

Thread is cool to me. I don't have any complaints. People chimed in with some pricing and the question has been answered thoroughly. No reason to get upset if the thread goes elsewhere.

This really isn't your 2 cents as these prices are well below market and don't really have a bearing on this discussion. I think the kids call it a "humblebrag!"

Congrats though I guess.