It is awesome that you guys are looking to make new target banks. However, without good replacement targets to go in them....

I would love some new drop targets for classic stern games that actually drop effectively.

I think there were two different drop target bank styles. I know that at one point seshpilot was looking for one type. Maybe he or cottonm4 know the difference, and when the changeover happened.

I bought 3 of them for the #3 DT Bank on my Meteor restoration. I used an early CPR run of the Meteor playfield that has the shortened cutout for that bank making it impossible to use the "flat top" replacements since the lip at the top of the target catches the playfield edge and won't fully drop down. So, gotta use tombstones (I'm not brave enough to cut into the new playfield to widen the hole for accommodating the flat top style targets). CPR has this fixed in their current run, along with the missing METEOR drop target value text (which I also had to add manually to mine).

I should have this flipping in December....I'm repairing and repainting the cabinet now. If the Swinks targets behave nicely, I'll report back here and likely will spend the money to get six more so that the #1 and #2 DT Banks match style-wise.
Light 01a (resized).jpg

Same. I love my restored Meteor, but my flat top drop targets that don’t fall reliably drive me crazy. I have original ones in my Trident and the difference is night and day.

Yes. And No.

My Nine Ball and Dragonfist drops use a different style of mounting plate for the switches. The style of mounting plates can be interchanged between the cages. I'll have to get some pictures. I have both style on the shelf so might be able to do that in a couple of days.

Oh, really. As if you are the only one here with an opinion

I have always heard opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one

Here is a Nine Ball drop assembly. The switch mounting plate is attached with screws from inside the cage assembly. There are also 6 alignment fingers on the plate that tuck inside the drop cage.

This style of drop assembly is the same in my Dragonfist. I'll have to open Catacomb to see what drops it has; another project for a different day.

IMG_8137 (resized).JPG

This is the other style, more common style of drop assembly I have. The more common assembly where the switch plate screws to a threaded plate mounted inside the cage.

IMG_8140 (resized).JPG

I discovered this difference when I built up 2 drop assemblies for my friend's Nine Ball. I had 2 of the more common drop assemblies that I installed his new drop targets in. The plan was to unscrew the switch plates on his NB and leave the wiring untouched and then swap in the 2 units that I installed his drop targets in and reinstall the switch plates. But the different styles it turned into a PIA job.
====================================================================

Accessing and adjusting the switches on one of Nine Ball drops is shit job. The play field is leaning up against the back box. The switches are on the bottom and the only way you can see them is with a rear view inspection mirror. If you can adjust the switches on the center NB drop switches then you are a better man than I.

This center drop on NB is buried by the big U-turn drop target hardware. The only way to see the switches is to stand on your head because the switches are below the sidewall of the cabinet. You cannot just bend your knees and get a better look because you are blocked by the cab. So, in this case, your only option is to remove the entire drop assembly and fuss around with the wiring. A PIA.

IMG_8142 (resized).JPG
================================================

Which leads me to the 3rd configuration of Stern drop assemblies.

The early style Stern drops has the switches mounted on the bottom of the drop cage. When I restore my NB, I will be moving the 3 switches to the bottom of the cage for easy access for adjusting and cleaning. You can see the 6 switch mounting holes on the bottom of the cage plate, but since Stern had done away with the bottom mounted switches these 6 holes are not tapped/threaded so a #4 tap from a tap and die set needs to be used.

I have heard where some have had problems with switches mounted on the bottom of the cage but I have had nothing but good experiences with bottom mounted switches. I don't know why there would be problems. They mount just like an inlane/outlane switch.

If you have a drop assembly that you are wanting to use but don't have a switch plate to mount the switches to, then you can do the bottom mount procedure and be good to go since the switches mount directly to the cage plate. However, you will need to use switches with the white actuator button that is activated when the target drops.

IMG_8142 (resized).JPG

(This is not the correct switch. It is just to show a pin of the actuator button).

detail (resized).jpg

Ok, so I was advised today that a new mechanism will be only one piece of the puzzle, and that the available repro drop targets themselves are not up to the task. So that will have to be another project in conjunction to the mechanisms. Is anyone working on those?

This statement confuses me. I know some of the drop targets are too short but people have been shimming the lift bar a little bit higher.

I have repros in my Seawitch and my Nine Ball and do not have any performance issues.

What's up?

I have repro drops in my stars and they brick constantly unless it is a very soft hit. A direct shot from the rebuilt flippers is a certain brick.

Questions:

Have you played your Stars with the original drop targets? Can you compare between the originals and the repros for brick action? If so, what looks different when the OG and repro targets are laid side by side and measured?

I have played other Stars machines with OG drops and they work pretty well. My game came with repros and no originals. The repro have the lip on the tops. I tried doing slow mo video shots and it looks like they bounce back forward before dropping. I am thinking they are too flexible and not rigid enough. Also I would prefer to not have the lip at the top. The repro also has the star logo placed lower than the originals.

You can grind or sand off the lip at the top and make them look like the tombstone targets. I did one as test. Worked great. I can't move the stars, though.

Stern was not exactly using precision when it assembled its pins. Meaning 2 of the same pins sitting side by side will play differently.

What you don't know is how your Stars behaved with OG targets. It could have been Brick City for the first owner. If the owner was an OP, it would not have mattered to him.

IMO, what you need to check for is to see if the target slams into the rubber ring on the posts sitting behind. My theory is if the drop assembly is not positioned correctly or if the rubber ring is too close to the targets, then the targets will hit that post rubber and bounce back on you. I could be wrong, but I had a set of drops targets bricking on my new build. I set the posts back one hole diameter and the extra clearance made all of the difference and my brick problem stopped. That is my experience.

Go to this link regarding a Seawitch build. Start at post # 586 and read all the way. You might need to reposition your posts and rubber ring or reposition your drop target assembly. Or maybe the drop springs are not positioned correctly.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/seawitch-from-scratch-allentown-edition/page/12

What I am saying is that I think your brick problem is not associated with repro targets.

The repros are Bally targets with hoods. Stern and Bally targets are pretty much the same below deck except for the sensor tabs and spring holes and one is taller above deck than the other. I will dig up a comparison image from my design computer soon.

I am far from the first to be underwhelmed by the performance of the repro drop targets. In this thread there are many other folks have made the same statements. Listen to the slam tilt podcast guys talk about these drops. Same story there.

There is also the "Spine" on the front that appears to be different. Maybe not the best example pictured but I grabbed a couple targets from my old parts bin. This changed the height needed for the ledge or shelf. I know folks have flipped the shelf bracket to switch over to bally targets, but you can't really mix and match in a bank.

20211028_154223.jpg

yes the spine is there because with the drop target structure - a bracket can be flipped one way or the other but if flipped you need to use the correct drop target - I redesigned both.

what episode number was it as curious as might learn some more.

here is the comparison between the Classic Stern Tombstone and the Bally Hooded Target

Stern & Bally Comparison (resized).png

These are 3 Bally drop targets converted to work with Stern drop assemblies.

Screen Shot 2021-10-28 at 5.39.19 PM (resized).png

I am the one who discovered that you can superglue an extension on the shank of a Bally Drop target and make it work wonders with the Stern setup. Before I did this with the drop targets, I rolled the bracket in the Stern drop assembly and installed the Bally drops as Bally would have installed them. You talk about bricking. They bricked. So, I added the extension and rolled the Stern bracket back over and got my red Dragonfist drops by doing this.

With the lower position extension that Stern used, the targets drop much better. No bricks. And no targets falling down indiscriminately.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is test you might want to try. Place your bricking drop target assembly on your work bench. Keep manually activating the targets. Hit them hard. Use a stick if you need to. Whack 'em. See if they brick while on the bench. If they do not brick while on the bench but brick when you have the drop installed then what would be the difference? That is the question you need to answer.

Ideally, it would be nice if you could find 3 original drop targets and see if the OGs make the problem go away.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. Like Swinks. Where can I see the podcast?

The only 3 complaints I have ever read on Pinside, in this thread and the other threads, too, is either the targets are too short, just fall down on their own, or they brick. If you have read some complaints beyond these 3 I would be interested in hearing/ reading about them.

It all depends in how that drop assembly is positioned in the play field slot (keep in mind that Stern did not assemble these play fields close tolerances and precision mind ). If it is too far forward, you will have drops hitting the play field slot and falling on their own.

If the rubber ring on the backside is too close to the back of the targets then the target rebounding on the rubber will cause it to brick. I experienced both problems with the Star Gazer I just built. One target assembly was having both problems. Moving the posts and rubber farther away from the back of the targets solved the bricking problem. And removing some wood in the slot in front of the targets until I got .010" clearance between the target face and the slot got rid of the indiscriminate falling issues.

I can mod these drop targets in my picture and mix and Bally and Stern drop targets in the same assembly. It would not be hard to do.

These 2, from your pic: Either glue an extension on the Bally target and you can use it along side your Stern targets in a Stern assembly. Or you can cut the extension from the Stern target and mix it up in a Bally assembly with Bally targets.

b5030063191b1b39e3fe4fefeb43bd03bdb4105a (resized).jpg

https://www.slamtiltpodcast.com/
Gizmonic drgnlair

Bruce and Ron have done 175 episodes and extolled the virtues of classic Stern games in probably 175 of them.

Cottonm4
I appreciate all the details and info you have shared. Bottom line though is morphing a bally drop to work doesn't recreate the stern drop target with the correct embossed logo/number in the correct color. I am usually not that picky, but this is one of those things that I would love to have a faithful recreation of.

I don't have enough original drop targets to put in my game or I would. I would put yellowed ugly drops that played well over the new ones that brick. My wife comments on it too. That's when I know things are bad. I have been under the hood of this game. Waxed the parts like you mentioned before. Made adjustments. Tried tweaking the mech positioning, etc. I am not really interested in putting new holes in the wood to try to move the mech any further though. I would be ok with a brink once in a while, but not 9/10 shots not knocking the target down.

for what it is worth - here are my repros available in various colours but not imprints

the material is slightly different in that it is slightly grainy and not a polished gloss look as it is professionally printed solid nylon.

with and without the guides and regular and with backs filled in = upgraded.

apologies about the price - that is Shapeways.

https://www.shapeways.com/marketplace?q=swinkscsdrops&sort=newest

Glad to know someone has recreated these. Any comments on the durability of these?

You shouldn't have to do this at all unless the bank is REALLY back (like, right up against it).

It's the plastic that the new parts are made out of (or even older, vintage, ones.) I had the occasion recently to tackle the bally bricking (initially by putting in stern drops modified for bally... which might have worked except too much would have had to have been modified, would have been easier to swap the stern target whole).. So I came with a different solution, but in doing so, I fixed the bricking for the most part but ONE of the vintage targets I used in the middle position is made out of a different plastic than the others - the ones that no longer brick are translucent with a light behind it, and the odd one out is solid.

I've never had a classic stern come in where the original targets bricked, but perhaps I was lucky in that I had them all 20 years ago before repro anything was widely available, so the targets were all vintage. Except for Lightning - the center bank always bricked. Gottlieb drops seem to be the only ones that don't suffer from bricking; if the bally fix I did didn't work I would have tried to modify the drop finger to use 2 springs in a similar way to gottlieb... I tried a hacky version of that with lightning when I had it, but it didn't really work.

Oddly when GTB went to the single spring design they still didn't brick (or at least as much).

I understand. Only 300 Sterns were produced with red drop targets and they are impossible to find. I came up with my Bally conversion because it is the only way I can get red drop targets.

I have a selection of original drop targets I could set you up with if you are interested. 2 of them are the tombstone style. The others are removals from my Seawitch and Nine Ball; I assume they are originals. They are the hooded style.

But a hooded target can be turned into a tombstone fairly easy.

The 3rd target from the left was a hooded style drop. You can see the remnants of the sanding marks.

IMG_8150 (resized).JPG

IMG_8153 (resized).JPG

I just hit it with more sandpaper and it could pass for a tombstone. It will clean up nice. You can see a hint of blue on the right side.

IMG_8166 (resized).JPG

You would need to find some decals. Tractor Doc had a selection of Stern drop target decals made but I am not sure if he made the design you would need. But with a little elbow grease you could have a complete selection of original drops modded to look like tombstones.

My theory is that the drop target that is bricking is bricking because it is bouncing off of the rubber. sitting behind it. But all that it is is a theory. However, I know what I did to solve my bricking problem.

I get that you are not interested in making new holes on your play field. You might try this as an isolation test: Where the back side of the drop target comes into contact with the rubber, you could try removing some of the material that contacts the rubber and see if that makes a difference. If it ruins the target another repro can be bought for $4.00.

Or you might try a couple of heavy duty rubber bands from the office supply store. Anything to get extra space between the back of the target and the rubber ring.

If either one of these experiments alter your bricking problem, then you are farther along in figuring it out what you need to do.

This is the 4 center drops in my Seawitch. They are repros. They drop like stones.

IMG_8156 (resized).JPG

Working on a nine ball for a friend. Game is finally booting correctly and starting up mostly correct. I'm curious about these drop targets though. Most times when the game starts they wont all reset. As if a few don't catch the little ledge and drop back down. Is there something I'm missing that helps keep them standing better?

They're not nice and straight like drops from Williams machines. It's this the norm for Classc Stern machines?

1635869121257191941654502650493 (resized).jpg

That's a pretty nice looking pf. Tell him to get some clearcoat on that thing.

Slow motion video of the drop targets resetting.

Joe Shadetree chiming in. Remove the drop assembly from the play field and place it on your work bench in a position that will allow the drop target reset lever full movement. Hook up a couple of jumper wires to one of the flipper coils so they will be hot when you push the flipper button. Connect the jumper wires to the drop target reset coil. Manually drop the targets and then hit the flipper switch to reset the targets.

If while in the bench, the drop targets mimic what you showed in your video, then there is some sort of problem with the drop assembly itself.

However, if the drop targets reset and stay up then you have eliminated any errors with the drop assembly.

Now, you have to figure out why the drops work on the bench but go whacky when mounted. I have my theory why this happens.

I like your clever idea. I think I will try this out and see what happens.

Will report findings afterwards.

I also had some trouble with targets intermittently acting the same way, here was the fix I had posted to the Nine Ball Club:

I had this issue with 2 targets in my 8-bank after rebuilding and installing new drop targets. After many attempts to fix the issue, it turned out in my case to be the relays that knock down the targets needed to be adjusted. The armature of each relay has a tab at the end that the target rests on. The tabs on the armatures for the targets that were intermittently dropping needed to be raised or lowered to get them in line with the tabs for the armatures on the "good" targets. You'll need to pull the target bank out to get access to the parts you'll need to adjust.

I think im following.. Does this adjustment involve tweaking or bending the metal tab up or down slightly to match the others?

Yep, exactly. I compared the problem ones with the working ones and carefully bent the tabs to try to match their position. Worked like a charm, thankfully!

Great! Definitely worth a try. These Stern banks are a pain to get working properly.

Thanks for the tip!

frunch Im assuming these are the metal tabs you were referring to? They all seem to be fairly close to the same position.

Or was it something else you were taking about?

20211103_113355 (resized).jpg

That's them! Just need to bend them to get in line with the ones that are working properly...at least that's what fixed mine.

See how these couple look bent a bit to the right? Maybe it's just the camera angle, but they look a bit out of alignment. You may need to bring them back a little bit to the left (or the others are bent the wrong way and need to match those). Take careful note of which targets are dropping and compare the position of those tabs with the reliable targets. Good luck!
Screenshot_20211103-134917.png

widebody Stern lockbar on Ebay if anyone needs

Unfortunately none of these drops are working reliably. Most of the time when a reset happens a few fall but its not always the same ones.

Ill play with these tabs and also compare the new drop targets to the originals to see if there's anything that may be out of the ordinary.

I had an issue with a controlled drop on F2K that was related to a shorted transistor. At the start of each ball, the “4” target relay would pull open. I took a slow motion video to make sure that was the cause of the constant drop.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/price-check-1980-sterns-quicksilver-stargazer-seawitch/page/83#post-5948528

FLASHBALL
Post a couple pics of the rest of the drop target assembly, maybe there's something else missing or in need of adjustment. Can't think of anything else

Ever find a good solution?

I could weld but looking for something a bit more elegant, might machine a hole in the rod center and thread for a cap screw the same diameter as the rod.

Actually, I think so! I just ordered one of these last week but I have not tested it yet. I don’t see any reason why it would not work though.

https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/A-5920

I'll have to accost one of my Gottlieb EM's and see it is works.

Holding it side by side my Big Game and F2K shooters (only ones accessible right now), that link is a pretty dead on match, with the only noticeable difference being the location of the inner spring e-clip slot. The knob is pretty much identical. And of course the length is right.

Odd this topic is NOT showing up in my favorites for some reason, this post is a test.

Yup, even when marked as a favorite and with a post bookmarked it refuses to display.

It turns up in search and pinsider pulse though.

Weird.

If you don't need new Stern shooter rods, I believe we have some.

Looks like Marco sold out from the link I posted! I was worried that'd happen but didn't think it'd be so fast! They must've only had a few.

Call Steve at the Pinball Resource. He has the 9” Gottlieb shooters. It really is the only good substitute for classic Sterns.

Yep, I swear I checked his site and it said out of stock but I think I misread. Looks like he has them, and per usual, cheaper. Oh well it was free shipping over $100 and my order ended up being like $100.29

Shows out of stock.

I had one in my cart, now gone.

Doesn’t Steve offer 10% off on orders $100 or greater?

Screen Shot 2021-11-05 at 5.56.53 PM (resized).png

I've ordered less than $100 worth of parts maybe once over years of ordering from PBR and I don't know that I've ever seen a discount on my invoices. But I've never once been yelled at!