(Topic ID: 69836)

Preventative maintenance.......flipper rebuild (Completed)

By 82Trooper

10 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 36 posts
  • 20 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 years ago by nasco62
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 10 years ago

I have a BK2K that I have owned for several years. The game plays 100% and I am having no issues. I was considering installing a flipper rebulid kit for all three flippers. I figure after thousands of games, they are likely worn to some degree. As the flippers are where the player really interacts with the game, I think having them be 100% is the way to go.

Any thoughts on doing maintenance tasks like this? Do you guys regularly do this type stuff, or should I just leave well enough alone and fix what breaks?

Thanks for any insight.
Mike

#2 10 years ago

Considering that the machine itself is worth over $1500, and the flipper rebuild kit for that game is only about $13 per flipper at the pinball resource, and like you said the flippers are how the player interacts with the game, I'd say it is definitely a good idea to rebuild your flippers. Even if they work fine already they will work stronger and better after the rebuild, if you rebuild them correctly.

#3 10 years ago

If none of the parts are worn then doing a rebuild wouldn't accomplish anything. That said, if you have never done the flippers on this game, and especially if they are still using the old compression spring style mechanism, then rebuilding them with the newer expansion spring style can definitely make a nice difference.

#5 10 years ago

If there isn't any slop in the mechanism ,just change the coil sleeves.

#6 10 years ago

Thanks for the link, I appreciate the advice.

#7 10 years ago
Quoted from 82Trooper:

Any thoughts on doing maintenance tasks like this?

Something I learned a long time ago...

If it's not broken don't F with it!

Robert

#8 10 years ago

If you rebuild it the flippers and you don't notice anything different, then they didn't need a rebuild. If you rebuild them and they feel and work better, then it needed it.

If they are feeling and working good, it's time to play pinball.

#9 10 years ago
Quoted from moto_cat:

If there isn't any slop in the mechanism ,just change the coil sleeves.

I like that suggestion because you can get the coil out with just two screws. Once it's out, you can see most of the works to know if you need a rebuild. If the old sleeve doesn't come out easy or the new one doesn't go in easy, new coil and rebuild. If the stop is mushroomed, rebuild. If the plunger is mushroomed, rebuild. If the linkage has excessive play, rebuild.

Personally, if I have to replace anything aside from sleeves, once I've got it apart, I just do it all, including bats and bushings.

#10 10 years ago

It costs so little to rebuild your flippers, and games cost so much, that I can't see any reason not to just rebuild them.

The flippers are your interface to the game. It would be like typing on a spongy keyboard and using a 640x480 monitor on your computer every day.

I had a client a month ago that bought a Shadow. The last owner said he "just could not get into the game". I played it and indeed it played like crap. Turns out someone had "rebuilt" the flippers with old sys11 parts, some odd coil stops and just a pile of mismatched junk.

3 proper rebuild kits latter (3 flipper game), the game plays crisp and tight. It compels you to "just play one more game".

#11 10 years ago
Quoted from MrSanRamon:

Something I learned a long time ago...
If it's not broken don't F with it!
Robert

I hear what vid1900 is saying, but I'm with Robert. Maybe because I suck but everytime I go in to just tune a machine up I end up breaking something else.

But I suppose that is how we learn. That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.

#12 10 years ago
Quoted from Acampero:

But I suppose that is how we learn.

Yes, you've got to learn sometime.

Having weak or soft flippers on a game is like owning a Ferrari and using Chinese tires on it.

#13 10 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

It costs so little to rebuild your flippers, and games cost so much, that I can't see any reason not to just rebuild them.

A lot of people start just replacing and repairing stuff that doesn't need to be fixed.

Nothing wrong with a finely tuned machine, but for the most part you really only need to rebuild the flippers in home use every few years. The design is pretty bullet proof and rebuilding them just to do it is sort of a waste of both time & money.

I think back on some stuff I was trying to just tune up; and after I got done fixing what I'd broken, I realized that it really didn't work that much better anyway.

I don't want to minimize the contributions you've made to the hobby Vid1900...flipper rebuild, rotisserie building, playfield work, etc...they are all great, fabulous really. Way better than I could do.

So, I just want to let people know that every action has a risk and reward; and it's best to minimize the risk by not F'ing with something just because it's there.

Not trying to contradict you, just putting another spin on pinball repair.

Robert

#14 10 years ago

^^^

while i am firmly in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it camp"...

he's had it for "several years" (which would qualify as more than "a few"), and it has thousands of plays (and who knows how many more before that)...

imo (and only imo)... and i HATE car analogies... but here goes... you can draw a parallel here to shock absorbers on a car... if you drive a car every day, you really don't notice that your shocks are worn after a period of time, simply because the slow rate of wear inures you to how crappy they really are... but as soon as you get a new set of shocks slapped on that puppy, you notice in a REAL hurry...

again, imo, ymmv, etc. but i personally would rebuild them...

#15 10 years ago
Quoted from MrSanRamon:

rebuilding them just to do it is sort of a waste of both time & money.

You are right.

I'm not telling anyone to rebuild their flippers just because they have nothing to do.

I'm just suggesting that when you get a new game, unless it came from someone who **really** takes care of their games/ or the mechs look new, go ahead and rebuild.

The OPs that owned that game previously put in any coil stop, any spring, and any plunger link, that was rattling around in the bottom of their tool box. "just keep the game running, it does not matter if the parts match or not".

-

One guy I know bought a pin from a dealer this past summer and it came with a "6 month guarantee".

When he called and said that the left flipper was loose and worn, the dealer sent a guy out and replaced it with another used and worn part. When he spoke up, the serviceman said "Sorry man, that's all I got. These games are old, Williams is out of business, you know".

The dealer quit returning his calls, so he bought a rebuild kit, and learned how to do it right.

The game plays like it's brand new now.

#16 10 years ago
Quoted from 82Trooper:

The game plays 100% and I am having no issues.

Quoted from vid1900:

I'm not telling anyone to rebuild their flippers just because they have nothing to do.

VID...

Yes, I understand and I appreciate all of your threads/advice/tutorials.

My comment was only to the "...I am having no issues..." part by the OP.

Just trying to let some of the newer people who stumble onto this thread; that you don't really need to work on everything all of the time and that taking things apart has a risk, especially for people who are new to mechanical rebuilds.

And I wholly agree, that everyone has to start somewhere/sometime and again, your tutorials are a really good place to start.

Robert

#17 10 years ago
Quoted from MrSanRamon:

My comment was only to the "...I am having no issues..." part by the OP.

Flippers will flip almost forever, they just won't be strong or accurate.

The guy who bought the Shadow did not realize how bad the flippers were when he bought it.

It takes some experience to "feel" the looseness of worn flippers that a beginner won't have.

I'll go as far to say that if 82Trooper attempts to rebuild his flippers and somehow is so overwhelmed that he can't finish, he can send them to me and I'll finish the job, better than new, at no charge to him.

#18 10 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The guy who bought The Shadow did not realize how bad the flippers were when he bought it.
It takes some experience to "feel" the looseness of worn flippers that a beginner won't have.

This ^

#19 10 years ago
Quoted from MrSanRamon:

Just trying to let some of the newer people who stumble onto this thread; that you don't really need to work on everything all of the time and that taking things apart has a risk, especially for people who are new to mechanical rebuilds.

I just want to let newer people know that the moment you buy a used pin, rebuild the flippers.

Do it.

You wouldn't buy a used car and not immediately change the oil would you? Who knows if the old owner used the correct grade, never changed the filter, never used synthetic...

The only thing you can mess up in a rebuild is the EOS, and vid's guide clearly shows the correct gap.

You can't own a pin with out maintenance, and once you do the flippers, you should be good (for home use) for many years.

#20 10 years ago
Quoted from cichlid:

I just want to let newer people know that the moment you buy a used pin, rebuild the flippers.
Do it.
You wouldn't buy a used car and not immediately change the oil would you? Who knows if the old owner used the correct grade, never changed the filter, never used synthetic...
The only thing you can mess up in a rebuild is the EOS, and vid's guide clearly shows the correct gap.
You can't own a pin with out maintenance, and once you do the flippers, you should be good (for home use) for many years.

Bah. I've bought many used cars and did not immediately change the oil. Flippers are working great on the machines that have not been in need of rebuilding. When they are in need, I do them. You guys must have an endless supply of cash.

#21 10 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

You guys must have an endless supply of cash.

Not endless, but every Friday I get a fresh supply.

I've never bought a pin for less than $600, so paying a whopping $20 for a flipper rebuild kit is pocket change. Totally worth it to have my game play as tight as it can be.

But I know things are tough right now for many people, so I'm not going to judge if someone does not have the money to rock out their game.

#22 10 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Bah. I've bought many used cars and did not immediately change the oil. Flippers are working great on the machines that have not been in need of rebuilding. When they are in need, I do them. You guys must have an endless supply of cash.

no, not an endless supply of cash, but it hardly makes sense to spend a wad of money on something and then cheap out on making it work properly...

to each his own...

#23 10 years ago
Quoted from 82Trooper:

The game plays 100% and I am having no issues. I was considering installing a flipper rebulid kit for all three flippers. I figure after thousands of games, they are likely worn to some degree. As the flippers are where the player really interacts with the game, I think having them be 100% is the way to go.

I would just put in new coil sleeves and "clean all the flipper components" with 91% alcohol. It will cost a buck and 30 minutes. Also check/clean your flipper switches on the cabinet.

Once you see how easy and effective coil sleeves and cleaning can be, you'll want to do the same for your slingshots and then your pop bumpers.

For under 10 dollars your machine will be ready for a few thousand more plays.

#24 10 years ago

#25 10 years ago

I like the idea of checking the coil sleeves and going from there. This way you're putting your eyes on the mechanism as mentioned and then go from there.

#26 10 years ago

Being afraid of breaking something is just a bad reason to not perform basic maintenance like flipper rebuilds...and pop and sling rebuilds. It's like not going to a doctor for a sore knee cause you're afraid the doc will find cancer.

Those mechanisms rarely crap out all at once, just like a fat guy doesn't put on 75 lbs in a week. Performance degrades slowly and gradually over time. You don't even notice it. Then after a year, you're fat and your flippers don't work.

A flipper rebuild is the biggest bang for your $30 bucks; way more than $30 worth of LEDs. If it doesn't need it, you've learned something, added a few years to your flippers, and got the satisfaction of doing it.

#27 10 years ago

As mentioned if you are new to the hobby and don't have a feel for what new well adjusted flippers are just do yourself the favor and fully rebuild the flippers (including new flipper bat bushings, maybe even new bats if the shafts look bad).

Just replace everything that could possibly wear or be worn out like a spring.

You don't have to throw the "worn" parts out, just put them in your parts supply for a rainy day when you might need a spare but don't want to place an order or you need the part right now. This way you don't have to feel bad if your replaced something that did not need replaced.

It is important to have a good baseline for what flippers feel like when they are the best they can be.

#28 10 years ago
Quoted from JoeGrenuk:

Performance degrades slowly and gradually over time. You don't even notice it. Then after a year, you're fat and your flippers don't work.

This is life changing JoeGrenuk... I'm going to save up for flipper kits while switching to lite beer at the same time!

3 weeks later
#29 10 years ago

OK, so I did splurge and rebuild all three flippers this past weekend. Went smoothly and I am satisfied with the project. I do not think there is any noticible difference in their action, but I feel good knowing they are fresh and squared away. Adjusted properly and I even installled new rubbers.

Prior to starting this project, I was looking at Marcos website, and it says the "factory" indicates the flippers should be rebulit every 500k flips. Apparently theire is a function that allows you to check the flipper "count". Does anyone know where to specifically access this info.....I am more curious than anything......

I looked in the manual and could not find it.

#30 10 years ago
Quoted from 82Trooper:

flippers should be rebuilt every 500k flips

Assume you play 10 games a day, 6 days a week, 52 weeks a year = 3120 games

Assume that in each game you use each flipper 50 times = 156,000 flips.

500,000/156,000 = 3.2 years

So, assuming my assumptions are accurate...just rebuild every couple of years and you should be good.

Robert

#31 10 years ago

How can you make assumptions about how often someone plays? That seems a little silly.

I was really looking for someone to actually help me answer the question I was asking.

#32 10 years ago
Quoted from MrSanRamon:

Assume you play 10 games a day, 6 days a week, 52 weeks a year = 3120 games
Assume that in each game you use each flipper 50 times = 156,000 flips.
500,000/156,000 = 3.2 years
So, assuming my assumptions are accurate...just rebuild every couple of years and you should be good.
Robert

Hardly. There's countless variables you are missing.

#33 10 years ago
Quoted from 82Trooper:

How can you make assumptions about how often someone plays? That seems a little silly.
I was really looking for someone to actually help me answer the question I was asking.

I think if you have never rebuilt the flippers on this particular game, go ahead and do it.
It's well worth it, you may never have to do it again in your lifetime, and the game will probably play much better.

go for it

#34 10 years ago
Quoted from 82Trooper:

How can you make assumptions about how often someone plays? That seems a little silly. I was really looking for someone to actually help me answer the question I was asking.

There is no way to determine flipper use, as far as I know...after working in many different menu systems.

My calculation, whether relevant to you or not, was meant to show that using a little common sense one can run a quick estimate.

I have no idea if 500k is a reasonable limit, I would guess that it's a pretty high number.

If one were to use 500k as a rebuild point, in home use many people would never need to rebuild before they sold the game. I know in my case that I don't play 10 games a day or even 6 days a week. So if I used 500k, it would maybe be 10-15 years before I reached that point, and I'd rebuild way before then.

Robert

#35 10 years ago
Quoted from 82Trooper:

Apparently theire is a function that allows you to check the flipper "count". Does anyone know where to specifically access this info.....I am more curious than anything......
I looked in the manual and could not find it.

On my WPC Getaway, the left- and right-flipper flip counts are under the Bookkeeping menu, B.4, 40 and 41. My older System 11 and System 9 games don't have this feature.

#36 10 years ago

Flipper rebuild was the first thing I did as a newbie on my first game, it played just and looked fine to me, when the new parts arrived I realised how bad the ones in my game were. Once the flippers were rebuilt I felt a real sense of achievement, and found the rebuilding as much fun as playing. Three years later I am buying junked machines and rebuilding them, you got to start somewhere, and like it or not machines will break down and you have got to learn to fix them yourself unless you are Richie Rich and call at tech every time something goes wrong.
Just do I say if break something then fix that also there is lots of help on this forum.

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