Beat. To. Death. Raised from the dead. Then, beat. Back. To. Death. Four. More. Times.

Let's not rehash in this thread the 1000s of posts from the last two.

Deal?

JLM was production order #166, I was #161. I remember because my machine number is 166 and we joked about swapping. I'm guessing we're up in the low 100s?

EDIT: I'm not sure I'm digging the new location for Hopper. I guess it's a fix for ramp concerns, but since I never really shared those, I'm a little bummed. Anyone else?

I've been digesting this video. Thoughts, questions?

1) As before, not sure I'm loving Hopper stuck in the back. Seems like kind of an after thought, as in, "We couldn't make this work where we wanted it as designed, but were pot committed, so we stapled him out back." Not a deal breaker, but I'd find discussion of the decision interesting.

2) Is the darkness of the center playfield during lit play a video artifact or lack of spots. I've become hyper aware of this because of my time on Oz.

3) The center stand ups are now standard circles, not the big chunkies. Any reason? To let the light through behind them under the plastic?

4) Am I crazy or is there an extra hole in the bottom right of the plastic covering the claw?

5) The GI on the return lanes is so awfully damn bright. I have ultra sensitive eyes. Any chance of post production jungle plastics or something? I was thinking back lit Predator script on them, you know like the red self destruct countdown or something, might be cool and save me a migraine or two!

6) Under the playfield looks like a clean layout with lots of space. Looks like a nice machine for someone like me who still has training wheels on when it comes to maintenance.

Looks really sweet. Regardless of longevity issues, seems like those glow balls are just way too perfect for this machine to not be auto buy. Kevin, how have yours' held up? Are they "recommended" or are you shipping the machine with them?

Finally, congratulations guys. You should be proud of your accomplishment!

Looks to be the case to me. On a normal game they need to be charged to have much effect, but most games don't have a pair of huge UV banks. They will get brighter I'd imagine the longer you play (which is a pretty cool side effect) but they should pop immediately.

As far as unanswered questions, I'd far prefer to have Kevin address the (need for?) skull drop point protection and ramp terminal bounce back than talk more about glow balls.

Well, I guess, but, in the video the ramp also dips pretty significantly when the ball hits it.

Even so, I'm still more interested in bounce back. I was the first person to bring that up as something I hated WAY back in the original thread, which Kevin very much appreciated because he hates it too. In one of the very old videos there WAS no bounce back.

I can't take the time to go watch the video now, but someone above mentioned seeing some in this production machine. That would be disappointing.

We can harp on the Snow for being so blunt, but while I think there's little if any chance I'll buy a Predator without glow balls, he makes an extremely valid point. While my experience with Kevin was great, my playtime on the machine was very discouraging due to how it was set up (you can search for my write up and video if you want). I obviously know intellectually that how it was set up at Tacoma is VERY different than the current machine, but emotionally it's hard to shake how boring and easy my one play was. I'm good, but I should f'ing A not hit, let alone complete, a wizard mode on any machine cold.

Some reports of this game's play, especially from independent reviewers (not that I think SkitB would intentionally misrepresent their product, but how many parents you know would admit their kid's ugly or stupid?) in its gold state, with standard balls, regardless of how awesome the glowies look, would go a real damn long way to alleviating my concerns.

EDIT:

Must admit, the more I think about Hopper being banished the more disappointed I feel. I really think hanging him there with a nice neodymium magnet for a brain would have been the way to go. Zero points of failure, and a great effect. :-/

Mod?

I can dig that I guess.

Kevin, at 4:41 there are two returns on the right lane, both from the VUK. The first performs exactly as hoped and drops right down, the second had a pretty good sized bounce back. I had thought maybe the good drop was from the VUK and the bounce was from a made ramp shot due to higher velocity, but not the case.

Glow ball inconsistency? Might want to test the returns with regular vs. glow balls. Of course, could just be Chaos.

For what it's worth.

God damn. If I put my critical thinking cap aside for the moment (which is a LOT easier to type than do for me) and just let the video roll, one thing just always punches me in the face. Can I get a big huge "Fucking A!" for this game's sound and music integration?

EDIT: Still don't like the WAH WAH WAH jackpot noise though.

EDIT 2: Speaking of (or not as was the case), what color glow balls are folks thinking? If red shows up well enough that'd be my pick. Three red dots and all that, eh what? Plus it'd look better with the UV off. Also, who's working on that laser mod?

Mine will probably say, "I should have spent this on the mortgage."

Man. Having met these guys I sure hope if there was a split it was amicable. I believe they've been friends for decades. :-/

Haha. That looks nasty. You may have just been added to some watch list.

Vertebrae.

Just sayin'.

I better not get the wet one with finger prints!!!

Especially since a lot of us need to consider space as a big issue.

Dude, you forgot to swap accounts again. This argument is the HoP persona's.

Goofin' on this guy aside, I am now, officially, worried. If you take the single somewhat detailed review of gameplay from this weekend, and compare it with the review of my single play, they are remarkably similar. (EDIT: It's on this page---> http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-predator-info-thread/page/93#post-923841) All the way from the ease of gameplay, lack of challenge or "hook", to how interested, friendly and committed Kevin, and at that time, Aaron were. The only thing markedly different is that he says it was hard to hear, where as amid the cacophony that was the Tacoma show it was the loudest fucking thing on the floor.

I dig everything positive folks are saying, and everything mitigatory. It IS cool, it IS a dream theme, it does have lots of pluses, but for me and my tiny budget, tiny space and tiny collection, it also has to be fun as hell to play, AND, importantly, have serious legs. I'm way less concerned about tech issues. In fact, tech issues at a show don't worry me a bit. A third of the games at any show of any age from any manufacturer have problems.

The game being easy, redundant and/or boring? That's troublesome.

I really want to hear Ghostbuster's review. (Sorry man, can never remember your name. Not my fault you built that masterpiece!)

Yeah, I hear you man, it's just worrisome. But Kevin's had access to this layout for years, he has really good ideas and thematic tie ins for his rules. He also describes the rule set very well. It doesn't seem to be matching up with game play. Stacking, lots of modes, lots of multiballs, hunts, it all sounds great, but depth doesn't matter much if, with so few shots to make, you can activate everything just by keeping the ball in play.

Dude, wizard mode completed: First play! I was, and to some point am still willing to be, convinced that was due to how easy the game was set up in Tacoma. But, when I start hearing pretty much echos of that a year later, well. I start to worry.

I am hopeful and ready to be proven wrong. Someone, please do so.

Did you not see where I admitted that IN my review within the first 50 characters? And then reiterated and stressed that repeatedly in the thread pages that followed? And then reinforced that allowance again even on this thread?

I have been a student of this game a LONG time man. I knew the rules just fine, and smoked this machine so bad it was boring in one play, so bad my then seven year old who hardly goes a day without drawing up a new pinball design was bored watching it. Yes, as I stressed over and over again, this was on a game MADE to be easy. However, we are to believe that this game being played this weekend IS a manufacture candidate and people's initial impressions of this machine, about a year later, are very similar.

That is worrisome. And, that is all I'm saying.

What's YOUR review like tonka? What was YOUR first impression? I WANT to be wrong, but so far, everyone who plays comes on here and says something pretty similar, even accounting for the douchebaggy "let's shit on Predator cause it's funny" crowd.

Come on Betelguese, spill it dude. You're a long timer with a critical mind as well. We need you here.

I'm basing my opinion on, precisely now, as complete of information as is possible to obtain, the only thing tangible we have. Your basing your opinion, else concluding one is neither warranted nor necessary, on speculation, faith, and hoping for the best.

You're stating you're going to wait to form any kind of opinion until AFTER you've made a $5000 purchase and wearing that like a badge. You may be comfortable with that, you may have the funds for that, but I sure as hell don't.

Yes. According to Skit-B, the machine is as intended game play wise. Obviously tech issues aside.

You really don't care how many times I've stated these exact same sentiments do you? Dude, the point is, AFTER a year of development, and ON a machine that is supposed ready to go, people are voicing the same concerns I had ages ago.

That's not a done deal, it doesn't mean the machine is doomed, but if that doesn't cause some concern I don't think you're being fair with yourself.

I don't have enough hubris in me to suggest that people base their purchase on my review, and I'm thinking you won't find me implying otherwise. I'm saying, it's "worrisome" (while you contend it's meaningless), that players of a machine said by the manufacturer to be gold are reporting the same type of things that I did after playing on a machine rigged to be easy. To me, that might imply an issue intrinsic to the table regardless of rule set. That's the concerning part.

If you understand that, then I'm not sure what your problem with me stating such is. If you don't understand that, I'm not sure what will help you to do so. Either way, I guess we're done here.

Thanks Brian. That's, once again, pretty much exactly what my take away was from Tacoma last year: Super cool bells and whistles, amazing sound, but easy to complete, even with technical issues, and with relentless ball times.

*sigh*

Well. There's always the next show. Here's to that folks!

Yes, from the beginning the UV has been not only a stated design element, but an important "sell" for the machine. It's genius if they pull it off, and unfortunately a massive disappointment if it fails. This table needs all the cool bells and whistles it can get. I'm wondering if those dinky little LEDs have the guts to pull off the effect. When it pops in demo vids, it's always a big hand held flood.

In other videos the light banks look like a whole bunch of tiny LEDs in the cab. For up close looks, when it really jumps out, it's a handheld fluorescent tube. I don't worry about their video play through not showing the ink, those overly way too bright pure white LEDs would wash out anything as subdues as UV ink. Eye witness reports are the concern.

The game at the show over the weekend had Hopper in his new position at the back of the cabinet. I'd say it's pretty clear this is the machine we saw in the "Mission Complete" video.

My guess has to be, since that's all we can do, that those mini lights aren't dropping enough UV on the field for the effect to pop. Does that hamper the cool achievement system? No. The sound? No? Does it effect the playfield in isolation? Not really. But does it effect game play? I'd say yes, of course it does. Obviously it's not a matter of rules or ramp position or physics, but gameplay to me encompasses the entire experience, which is why it's not much fun to play whiteboards, or games without any sound. It's part of the package, it's part of the draw, it's part of the fun.

I will be very disappointed if this effect just sort of gets lost in the shuffle.

Dillon: "Hopper. They did the same thing to Jim Hopper..." Ha!

When is the next show scheduled? Anyone?

Annnnd....

This image finally shows up for the 32nd time in Predator thread #4.

Quota met.

Yes, yep, and yes.

++

We've got folks new to the thread scared they're going to get flamed just for posting their opinion. That's not a sign of a healthy thread, community or discussion.

My concerns are the above, and the seemingly unending streak of decent, but admittedly not world class players, who are coming away from their very first game saying it's too easy to be much fun. How many shows go by before either something about those reports change (perhaps along with the playfield), or folks like Tonka, who insist such reports are meaningless or pointless, start to take notice?

My clock is definitely ticking. Regardless of whether Kevin agrees with the play critique, he's undoubtedly learned a lot from it. Because SO much of Predator IS so good, Skit-B #2 seems to be a increasingly attractive proposition.

Even though I'm not going to attempt once again to address what I might at this point have to assume is your intentional obtuseness, if I have offended you with the "Tonka" moniker I am, straight up, honestly, 100% and in all ways unequivocally sorry. I thought I had read you yourself use that short hand in previous threads. Unsolicited nicknames are extremely insulting and one of my very worst pet peeves.

It will not happen again Wahchintonka.

Wow, this is all very encouraging to hear, especially about the difficulty. It was great to hear the interview with Kevin, so thanks to both he and Bakushan!

Most encouraging: Kevin talking about no longer being able to endlessly run modes. That must have been part of the ease I experienced in Tacoma. Love seeing the new mega huge UV banks.

I'm very much looking forward to more reviews, especially by folks familiar with the code and layout.

Thanks again to all reviewers!

++

Forgot about that in the vid. Yes, please God (but Kevin will have to do), plastics on the return guides.

EDIT: Forgot to mention... did see some bounce back on the right right return. :-/

I do believe you promised a review after the show was over good sir.

I don't have the authority to say one way or another.

Just make it sexy.

A very long time ago after seeing the white wood I said something like, "It looks like a game that was designed to look like it had come out when the movie did, but with modern tech", and Kevin said I had totally nailed it. It IS supposed to have a late 80s feel. (In theory I have no problem with that at all since a lot of my favorite game are from the same era.) I guess the extension of that is if Skit-B has also nailed the "modern tech" part? The rules, UV, DMD, sound and account tracker I would imagine are intended to fulfill that role.

At this point, I have a hard time arguing that the lighting isn't ill-advised and perhaps just flat out bad. I would VERY much appreciate an alternate scheme with either warms, or greens / blues, or... something. Anything more jungley and less "SHOP AT STORE MART" billboard marquis.

I was disappointed from the moment I saw the plastics. Just too, uhm..., clip art .gif-ish for me. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the now dis-involved Aaron in charge of the plastics? Something to think about I guess.

Regardless, I'm still in. I might be wobbling dangerously on the fence, but I think there's still more to learn about this project before an informed decision can be made.

EDIT: By the way, the reason the standups look so sparse / out of place, is that they were originally the big chubbies, not the rounds. I think you're right, when the change of hardware happened, a case could definitely have been made to add a third. Of course, that would have involved coding...

Damnit. You know. I just keep coming back to what my, dang, I guess seven year old back then, pointed out: Take away the wall shot and the Merlin *targets* (I always hesitate to call things no one in their right mind ever shoots for "targets"), flip the catapult over to the other side, and the shot map here is really close to the basic fan of MM, complete with dangerous (though obviously a lot less cool) center target. That's still true, so why the perception that this game's table is comparatively featureless?

I still wish, understanding the back hand design concept, there was one more thing to shoot forehand with the right flipper (the missing wall shot from MM). Left has four primary shots, right has half that. :-/

Hell and damnation, I really need to play this thing again.

At the Tacoma show I saw an utterly gorgeous ice world theme on Whitewater. It had pretty a similar take on GI as Predator. Haha. Something's wrong there.

As much as I think the plastics contribute to the "homebrew" feel that cause complaint, I guess I would be amazed if there aren't 100s of these things sitting in boxes at Kevin's shop. As pro as some of the machine looks, more than anything else, I'm just so very surprised the art on these plastics ever got the go ahead. I think people toss around the, "Har har, that looks like my kid drew it!", line way too often... but, uhm, I have an 8 and a 5 year old. They really do have color books that look a lot like those plastics.

Without having played it in its newest incarnation, my only list of changes that would seem to me to have a very high return on investment would be; 1) Lighting and, 2) Plastics. I could rest a lot easier with Hopper's banishment if the rest of the field was little more, mmm, polished? It should be stated that changing the lighting may very well in some ways address the plastics as well.

EDIT: Just watched the "Complete" video again. Forgot how cool those green flashers look.

EDIT2: Are we assuming the reason the UV banks are now always on is because as florescent they'd never *snap* on as required for game play? Also, with where the UV banks are, the ramps are directly infront of them. Given how they light up when hit, might they be soaking up a lot of the energy and creating a UV "shadow" right in the middle of the table?

I can't think of any way around that. A couple of spots pointed popward on the slings? Maybe an additional on the standup bank point toward the flippers? Anyone?

EDIT3: Can anyone who played this weekend comment on the user controlled orbit, both in function and strategic implementation as it applies to the rules. Savvy? I mean, it's one thing if it works, but there needs to be a good reason to use it or not. Right? Kevin might be the best person to answer that one.

I had a very similar experience with my own pinball son, admittedly after only playing the prototype in Tacoma. He watched my one and only game, probably 15 minutes or so. There were guys behind me in line of course, so after I beat feet when my last ball finally drained we went to do other stuff. Later in the show I asked if he wanted to go have a turn on the machine and he said, "Nah".

:-/

Four out of four Ghostbusters agree, it's spelled "Zuul".

Fairly certain Kevin said they did.

+1

I guess I'm just not cool enough to hang out with Californian stoners. Somehow, I'll struggle on.

How much would it cost to rig a little black curtain tent around it? You know? Like a hospital partition type of deal, or, one of those enclosures at science museums for viewing glowy minerals? You could have a county fair barker out front telling people in to get line for their chance to look behind the curtain.... if they DARE!!!!

But seriously. Some clothing racks and black cloth? Out of the question?

Very cool looking image, but one which I think highlights that as of now, Predator, with its setting that is supposed to make Cambodia look like Kansas, instead has a sort of Fremont Street Experience vibe to it:
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/media/USATODAY/USATODAY/2013/03/27/lights8-16_9.jpg

Still pleading for alternate lighting scheme.

Nope. First we've heard of it.

Uhm... should we tell him?

Just wondering which reviews were biased? Do you mean like Kevin's or something?

Great review on all points. Thanks!

It seems that even the most positive reviews remain very disappointed on a few common points:

1) Plastics
2) Lighting
3) UV

As subjective as gameplay can be it's understandable how much opinions vary, but it's very encouraging to read a consistently improving general impression. Since the above three are basically ubiquitous, hopefully Skit-B still has the ability / will to address them.

Thanks again for taking the time Whysnow!

I still wonder about a UV shadow past those ramps. Imagine trying to light something in the middle of the playfield with visible light and opaque ramps. Does that make sense? I wonder what it'd look like with wire forms. I know, I know, pointless.

Right, and that's a valid sentiment from certain points of view. The thing is, very soon after he writes that, he mentions that the UV actually IS somewhat part of gameplay insofar as the blood trails were designed to illuminate the hunt shots when the game blacks out. That seems to have been glossed over by most people as they wave off the importance of what was supposed to have been a defining characteristic of the machine. I was glad to see Whysnow bring it up.

Does everyone who complains about the center targets hate Black Knight / Black Knight 2000? Not preaching, just wondering. I know 2000 isn't everyone's favorite game of all time (it's easily one of mine), but I don't usually hear folks complaining it's unplayable or irreparably broken. When I tick off the list of things that worry me about this purchase, the center targets are a total non-issue.***

http://ci-cdn.23bits.com/46/48/ci-120511141127-960.jpg

http://www.pinballnews.com/shows/expo2013/177.jpg

*** Let me rephrase that. They are a non-issue as an intended game play element. There being only two little round targets in a space designed, both visually and mechanically, to hold two great big square targets... that's annoying. If you'll note in the picture above, the ball's stuck between them (on an older build, perhaps this has been addressed, though I'd prefer the original squares in any case).

As much as I want to see Skit-B succeed, I have to admit that Kevin asking for final payments from people without the promised video, and the constructive feedback and reasonable questions brought up in this thread being met without any response for 18+ days (not that I'm counting!), is probably more disappointing than what could be assumed at this point to be the nearly complete failure of the UV effect.

Even a complete rejection of criticism along the lines of, "Lighting, plastics and UV are all in their final state, and no changes are going to happen. I don't have time to provide the list with the video previously promised. I think the game is kick ass and that's good enough for me. I hope everyone enjoys their purchase.", would be appreciated because at least we'd know where the project stands.

Certainly not, but, we have reports on this thread that even in "near dark" it is not showing up enough to be considered even close to prominent, especially the blood trails which are the "functional" part of the effect. In fact, no one at all, aside from Skit-B, has reported the effect as a success.

I would absolutely LOVE a video (which I gave early could be understandably hard to engineer), or reports from customers in a home environment or perhaps at a show after playing cloaked in a draped booth or something, that proves the above moot. Until then, it's hard to categorize something no one has yet seen as a "success".

I'm a child of a child of the 60s and I certify the above ideas as bad ass.

1) The UV effect, in play.
2) That the orbit deflector, works.
3) That the pop sound effect is not seriously delayed, or, if it is intended to be so.
4) A complete game showing skilled play. Annotated for rules utilized would be awesome. (* see below for a great example of what this could look like.)

Apart from that, and given that things HAVE changed since the game was "complete", I'd like some definitive official statement from Skit-B about what may still change, especially given the nearly unanimous disappointment in lighting and plastics. We know now the UV is still in play despite payments due in two weeks.

*This is a good example of a "boutique" pin video. I totally understand that for Predator either extremely tricky lighting would need to be worked out, OR, heavy edits to show the game in lit play, and perhaps a completely different video to show the UV in play.

(Great video of both the glory of bald heads, and a pinball machine.)

Oh really? Wow, you sure know a lot about me.

We've had two or three reviews report that the orbit deflector is not working as *they* thought it would. Now, this could be unfamiliar play with the system, or, well, not. Having video of a skilled player narrate his game and say, "Here I will keep the post up and deflect this orbit shot into the pops, and here I will keep it down and take it on the flipper", would answer such concerns.

Ted, I can't speak for the rest of us heartless, fire breathing, piling on, meanie pants, lynch mob, trolling assholes, but all I'm asking for is what Kevin agreed to provide: a video of the game in the state in which it will ship, showing the features in perfect working order that were always and forever said to be included therein. As you correctly point out, any deadline for providing such has been self imposed by Skit-B, not a bunch of haters.

I'm happy to wait as long as it takes to see said video... as long as I'm not asked for $5000 before the manufacturer can provide the above. Personal opinion is too subjective and too open to bias to be the basis of a decision. What WOULD help is the game showcased in a professional way by the company that knows it best, highlighting all the features in the most flattering way. It's marketing. Show us the glam shot, give us the spiel, let folks decide based on the actual product, not the dreams or worries of super fans or detractors. Then, let's get the game built, in the world, played and move on to #2.

I don't see how that is hateful, unfair, aggressive, unreasonable, mean spirited, shitty or illogical. Yes, people blindly send in piles of cash to Stern and JJP. Why is this any different?

Because it's obviously different.

LIES!

http://www.funenglishgames.com/readinggames.html

No, you're right. I was including Stern because of the year long (+?) wait for code, but for sure, JJP is a far better example of what I mean. I'll leave my mistake unedited for posterity.

There was a really good synopsis of current reactions to the game making the rounds posted on Pinball Revolution by Drano:

-gameplay was great and fairly challenging (but different). Lots of focus on the sides of the playfield while trying to avoid the middle (think BSD)
-lighting is way too harsh. lots of guys calling for warm white GI and not so bright. Spoils the dark jungle theme a bit
-sound is incredible and really amplifies the experience
-UV tubes look like an afterthought (which they are). Hopefully they'll get 'dressed' somehow. The UV effect is still non-existent.
-'Hopper' figure looks a bit unifinished and just dangles there for no apparent reason
-VUK is awesome. Claw is a neat feature
-plastics look low res and 'homebrew'
-playfield looks great
-cabinet and art package look awesome
-video captures for the DMD are really well done
-the game layout and feel seems to be a bit of a throwback. simple layout and shots... but backed up with smart code and fun modes

Pretty good summary at this point I think.

Jury's out on that.

Most Haunted: Thank goodness the playfield is so bland and unattractive, especially the open middle 2/3rds, or my decision would be a lot harder. If it was as good as the rest of that machine I may have already dropped this for it. The rules seems deep, the game looks fun, the extra $1k seems easily justified with interactive toys, metal ramps, magnets, 1 year warranty, etc... But damn. Those clip art looking silhouettes pasted in front of the photo realistic moon, the lame inserts... Just doesn't come together for me at all. That said, I still see it as an option while I wait patiently for the Predator video.

I don't think anything's wrong with the palette, and I haven't seen it in person. Hopefully they'll be one in Tacoma this year because it looks like an absolute blast.

I've written that exact same sentiment about HoP a couple of different times. Wait, you folks ever notice how Clark's never in the office when Superman is saving Metropolis? It's almost as if... you don't think...

Nah. Couldn't be. Clark wears glasses.