If you try to please everyone...you get a wet ass!

Not sure why the concept of "try to please everyone and you please no one" has anything to do with establishing laws or changing the world.

What I am talking about is that it is basically impossible for Kevin to make everyone happy. Some folks want Kevin to have the game at every show possible, so they can touch it and feel it, others, like you, want him to produce a video, others want him to just focus on production, others want him to fix the plastics, etc. There is only so much time in a day and he can't do every thing everyone wants (and make them happy), nor should he try.

At the end of the day if 80% of the folks are happy, he has probably done a great job. And the other 20%, well, they can go . . .

.....and back in the pinball hobby, is there a video to show the UV lighting - working or not in regular home game room conditions - gameplay, and is this the final end state for us to make our decision?

80% happy, pleasing everyone, mixed feedback, yadda yadda yadda. A picture is worth a thousand words. A video is worth two thousand.

It was more of a joke but I was pointing out that those of us who are on the list for this game would like a video, Kevin doesn't have to try and please everyone just make a video of gameplay showing the rules and flow so those of us who can't get to pinball shows can make an educated decision as to whether or not to make payment for production. What I can't figure out is why some pinsider's are defending Kevin's choice to keep us in the dark? If you have a valid reason for this let me know. Later

There are 250 refundable deposits of $250 that have been sold. Until all these machines are paid for in full and shipped out I would hesitate to call them sold out... Skit-B still needs to show off this machine as much as possible and allow as many of these pre-order people to play the game to make an informed decision. They also need to make a really good video that shows off the game in the best way possible for the people unable to play it in person. The worst thing Skit-B could do right now is call it a day figuring that they have all these deposits and a wait-list of people ready to buy. The problem with doing only a $250 refundable deposit is that people that signed up for it really don't have anything to lose. They can afford to stay in until the very last minute and speculate because in the pinball world $250 is a drop in the hat. My guess is that there are quite a few folks that lost interest along the way but are hanging on simply because they figure "Hell, it's only $250 so I'll wait to see if this game is a winner or not" before plopping down the $2750 in cash. Yes, between the pre-order people and the waitlist they most likely will have enough people to account for all 250 games but I definitely wouldn't take these people for granted. Skit-B needs to step up the communication and work at keeping it's customer's as happy as possible!

Doesn't seem unreasonable. Kevin did say he would do another video after the mission complete video but with better lighting and game play? That hasn't happened yet? I don't really buy the "this is a boutique pin and if you don't like it back out attitude". Its like saying shut up and drink the Kool-Aid. No one is asking to redesign the game. I just want to see what I'm buying as it has slightly changed since the big unveiling. Isn't anbody curious of how the UV works with those new black light tubes? Seems they make the ramps more prominent than the UV paint?

I guess maybe I am 'defending' him, because I feel their is a little bit of a lynch mob going on. Kevin has probably spent more time driving, and talking to folks at shows, over the last month, then he has working on the machine and getting production going (or making a video). Maybe that is the not the right use of his time, maybe it is, again, you can't make everyone happy.

And while not a defense on the delay in the video, I will say it took me four months to finally shoot a short one of my game after I had promised it to several people -- just never seemed to be the priority (vs working on the code) -- and in my case it did not matter if it was great quality or not. (If you are totally bored you can see the crappy video here if you would like

)

I also think that to some degree the issues that have come up at shows, have been somewhat blown out of proportion. For example, 'The machine was down half a day at Louisville' -- when its was 20 minutes due to a blown fuse (and after that was revealed, no one contradicted it). Someone said 'the game was not up until after noon on Saturday at MGC', when I know I was playing the game well before noon.

When I talked with Kevin at MGC, I made a comment about the thread on Pinside. He indicated he has been way to busy to be spending time on pinside, which is why I then posted a short video of game play that I shot at MGC.

A few days ago Kevin replied to a bunch of the comments/issues on this thread and has indicated he is working on some things, including a video. So while his communication has been less frequent that desired, he has not been totally absent. In addition, those that have talked to him at shows, have reported back what they have heard from him. He also did that long video interview at Louisville -- so again, not a total blackout in communication, and certainly as much, if not more, than we see from other manufacturers, who have larger staffs that could do more of it.

And as far as feedback from the shows, not everyone is going to love the machine and the game play, just like every other pin. Lets be honest, much of the feedback is totally conflicting 'the game is slow', the 'game is fast', 'the game is easy', 'the game is hard', 'the middle targets suck', 'the middle targets do what they are supposed to'.

If folks feel they don't want to pay the next installment without a video, then they have ever right to tell Kevin that is a requirement for them.

I'm with you ninja. I need to see this thing in a well shot video to make an informed decision.

I think the thing that makes me hesitate the most isn't the game play or game itself, it's the question mark surrounding tech support. Kevin needs to hire a staff, if my game breaks who can I call, text, email that's gonna help me troubleshoot it? This seems to be a deal-breaker for me if we don't have proper tech support. I'm not gonna rely on the Pinball community to help me fix predator when problems arise.

I don't think so at all. People asking questions and requesting a decent gameplay video isn't exactly what I call a lynch mob. I've been paid in full for as long as anyone. I'm not looking for a reason to pull out. I just want to see the game that I am buying; presented by the guy who designed and built it.

It's a no win situation for Kevin. What I don't understand is how people forget that this is basically now a 1 man show in Kevin and all the issues that he has to deal with in getting this pin complete and out the door.

Can you imagine? Sure you can, because you know better based on what you have already seen with people like JJP and the vast resources they have. What could your EXPECTATIONS possibly be?

The reality of the situation is that you aren't going to get Stern or JJP like support after the fact. If you think so then your expectations are too high.

If you think there aren't going to be problems right out of the box then your expectations are too high.

Can't please everybody? There is always a part of the crowd that wants everything for nothing. The shitstorm always starts when $$$ starts changing hands, not $250 but $4750.

Not sure what people expect with a boutique pin like this at that price point but man, some of you folks need to get a reality check. There is substantial risk even after delivery with limited support possibly and failure of boards, etc. Is the risk worth the reward? Depends on your expectations.

Kevin gets huge credit for what has been accomplished thus far, it doesn't have to be and won't be perfect.

lynch mob is probably too strong a term, 'piling on' is maybe a better one. Just seems that there is a lot more than I think is justified, for all the reasons I've indicated, but that is just my view of the world. Maybe I should say that the 'we need a video' is sounding like a 'broken record' -- but most of the folks here have never actually experienced what a broken record sounds like.

Bottom line is three days ago Kevin acknowledged the need for a new video and that he will make one. Yet, we have had three days of "we need a video".

Now I will let this go, so I don't start to sound like a broken record.

I remember a conversation like this quite a while ago. When Kevin first started it was..."We're all behind you!", Don't worry, take as long as you have to to get it right." Every day was a love-fest. THEN, the Money Thing happened.
What?! Missed deadline! Grrrr! No video when I want it! Grrrr! He wants money NOW! Grrrrr! "Let's get him boys!!"
.....er, I digress.....Can't wait for Allentown!

Very true and I agree with you. However, I can personally vouch for one of the deposits of $250. The machine it is tied to is definitely sold. I'm not concerned about the lack of video. I'm not concerned about the lapses in communication. I'm definitely not concerned about whether or not there will be Tech Support as I know I can fix whatever may break on this pin. If I had any real concerns about the machine at any time after handing over my deposit, I would have asked for a refund. However, I also support those owners that wish for more video or better communication or confirmed Tech Support and how it will be handled. Those things, when delivered, will only serve to strengthen my current decision to move forward with getting the pin. For me, personally, this thing would have to seriously self-destruct for me to ask for my deposit back.

Your mileage may vary.

Summarize the last thirty posts. Group A: Does the UV work? Can we hear sounds with gameplay to make final decision before sending in first big installment? Group B: I'm in no matter what. If you need a video, ask for a refund. I don't get why you need to bother Kevin and the video is so important.

And back to the beginning....

Ted, I can't speak for the rest of us heartless, fire breathing, piling on, meanie pants, lynch mob, trolling assholes, but all I'm asking for is what Kevin agreed to provide: a video of the game in the state in which it will ship, showing the features in perfect working order that were always and forever said to be included therein. As you correctly point out, any deadline for providing such has been self imposed by Skit-B, not a bunch of haters.

I'm happy to wait as long as it takes to see said video... as long as I'm not asked for $5000 before the manufacturer can provide the above. Personal opinion is too subjective and too open to bias to be the basis of a decision. What WOULD help is the game showcased in a professional way by the company that knows it best, highlighting all the features in the most flattering way. It's marketing. Show us the glam shot, give us the spiel, let folks decide based on the actual product, not the dreams or worries of super fans or detractors. Then, let's get the game built, in the world, played and move on to #2.

I don't see how that is hateful, unfair, aggressive, unreasonable, mean spirited, shitty or illogical. Yes, people blindly send in piles of cash to Stern and JJP. Why is this any different?

Because it's obviously different.

You forgot rinse and repeat.

Nice reference though.

I'm in, the UV like I said is freaking sweet in the dark and I was a lucky one that got to play it a bunch of times over the MGC weekend so no video required here.

Its one thing to want a video before handing over the $2750. Its another to come on complain that it shouldn't take that long to post a video. We don't know what is currently going on at Skit-B, but there is a group here on Pinside that believe Kevin should be there to respond at their beck and call. There is a difference between having a legitimate concern (such as the UV working) and complaining about things that are not going to change (location of center targets). For those of you who have received the money request email and are wanting to see a video before deciding, just simply reply to the email that you receive stating that you would like to see the promised video before putting more money into the game instead of coming on here with "How dare he ask for money before giving us a video!!".

Obviously, I was speaking with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Believe me, I totally understand. I'll be playing the game in a couple of weeks and hope to have "all the news fit to print" when I get back, including pix and videos.

LIES!

Worth the 'waiting in the dark' period before the info on production. At the end of the day I'll have an awesome unique pinball machine based on MY grown up tastes.

Was worth the wait for JJP and (grown up) Stern.

Rick. "I'm gonna have me some fun." #190

This surely will Never Happen. Your expectations (hiring and paying People for tech Support; we're Talking about 250 machines, man!) are lightyears away from Reality and I personally cannot believe who is really expecting this from a Boutique. I am very sure that Skit-B cannot reach your expectations at this Point so your decision will be an Easy One.

I don't mind the delay at all, it's more the lack of a single picture of the game since it's been 'Complete' and the lack of a real video since 'complete'.

No matter, if it's at Allentown, I'll get a real look see and play the game if it's there and working. And I will give my personal review.

Get out as fast as you can then.
I fully agreed with lamihh... a boutique pin is clearly not what you should buy.

Where did I say hire tech support? I said he needs to be more than a one man crew, someone who can handle finances, questions, email or whatever. Not a team. To expect tech support is not far fetched here. 4750x250 is 1.18 million dollars, that's not chump change. If I cant get some sort of tech support I am out.

To add to that it doesnt matter if its a boutique pin this is the first pin to start up a pinball company, im not saying Williams here but the guy is building pinball machines not Tonka toys. Pinball machines break and im sure im not the only one worried about a 5k paper weight when shit hits the fan.

I think you are setting yourself up to be sorely disappointed.

Well, I've read these pissing and moaning threads long enough. Think about it. You want a video of the game in the state in which it will ship. You have not gotten that video yet. Therefore, shouldn't you be able to conclude that the game is not yet in the state in which it will ship? Plastics, UV, LEDs... I am sure that final tuning is taking place, and is taking some time. Kevin's deadline may be sliding,(as does JJP, Stern,...) but it isn't the end of the world if there are more delays. I'm sure there are some capital expnditures that now requires some folks to start paying up. If you don't want to pay up, move on and shut up.

Also, I'm sure Kevin is busy trying to market this pin and his business at the shows. That involves time, travel and expense. There's only so many hours in a day, so I am not surprised that his progress may not be as fast as you are expecting. With so many things to do, they can't all be completed simultaneously.

So, I don't have my Predator yet, but the family isn't starving as a result. This is not organ transplant I am waiting for. I am happy to patiently wait until Kevin has the product ready. I'd rather it be done right than done quick.

#212
We need the best. That's why you're here.

I think the reality is that there will be no official support. I either heard or read Kevin make comments that the game code will be open and if you don't like something you will have the ability to change it. I read that as give me my money, here's your pin, have fun and don't bug me if you find something that needs tweeking. In my opinion this is further driven home when Kevin is either blind to the fact or in denial that 99% of the people that have seen/played the game say the UV doesn't work to the level that would be considered acceptable by the masses (in my opinion it doesn't have a chance in hell of working remotely close to how it was marketed unless it is in some perfect and unrealistic sterile environment). I think the game will have support and the short comings it WILL be shipped with will be mostly overcome but I don't feel it will be by the manufacturer, Skit-B, it will come form the community that owns the game. Disappointing but I think a stark reality.

Kevin, you should give up pinball manufacturing. Your future lies in politics.

ADD: Thumbs down? I'd have never guessed.

Oy!

I've never blindly paid for a pinball from Stern. The game is out and available around 2 weeks after it is officially announced. Jersey Jack still has not fullfilled all their preorders and you can buy the game now from a distributor and get it before some people who pre-ordered? I am not sure what is going on with that, but I can say that a lot of these guys that are financing pinballs with pre-order money don't have as much to lose as the ones that do it with their own money (like Stern).

If I suddenly say I have a game available (Ghostbusters pinball coming out in 2016, preorder now, 100 available, $8000 each, preorder payment in full or payment $1000 per month, $800,000 coming to me and I delay it by a year or two, are you guys really going to be that patient about it? I mean, everyone "loves" what everyone wants to do supposedly, but if I show you guys some pictures, are you going to be ok with it? I mean, I say this because a lot of people are asking a lot of money and Skit-B has only asked for $250 until they wanted $2750 when the machines are ready to be built. I have no idea what the status is right now on anything because I have not received any emails and I wouldn't be getting the game for at least another 15 months if the production order was on time (which it is already late as it is) but at least they have only asked for $250.....you guys are going to be in for it one of these trusting all this money disappearing to someone else on a new "remake/NIB PREMIUM HERPADERPA pin."

http://www.funenglishgames.com/readinggames.html

No, you're right. I was including Stern because of the year long (+?) wait for code, but for sure, JJP is a far better example of what I mean. I'll leave my mistake unedited for posterity.

And yet none for your (critical) well reasoned post above. Why stoop to petty swipes like that? You're obviously capable of expressing yourself, but that was a cheap shot. I can tell you that's why I downvoted.

No need to justify or explain. Maybe in this instance the word homonym comes into play.

Thank you Kevin for at least hinting around to there being some type of support. I dont need my own personal in home tech just someway of knowing I can call or email and you could point me in the right direction. For me it wouldn't be a very wise purchase tech wise if I didnt have some sort of tech support, not everyone is an electrician or pinball op/tech. I try and fix my machines but I also know my limitations.

Kevin, I never said you spoke falsehoods. I said you have a future in politics, for your ability to take direct questions and answer them in an indirect and deflecting manner. Also good to now know what will elicit a quick response from you.

but it would need a 12mth warranty or similar right ? i mean, in legal terms, i think its a requirement ?
has any of this been clearly indicated at all.

Shit, that's good enough for me.

This according to Kevin last February:

"Our warranty policies have been solidified, as well, including any circuit boards, displays or major mechanisms that may fail within the first 90 days of the machine being received. Due to the nature of our machine numbering system, this warranty will also easily transfer with the machine if you decide to sell to another collector within that time period."

sounds good.

Okay you've said your piece please leave it at that.

Who cares about the UV light, StandUp targets, Video, etc ...
What happens with the Pony? I guess thats the most important question many did ask in these threads!

@ Kevin: Pls keep your patience / calmness

There is a pony hidden in the code....an Easter egg....maybe...

As far as support, lets be honest, this is not a massively complex game, and as far as beyond the warranty . . . .

1) The code will be open source, so even if Kevin disappeared from the planet, the code is there and others could fix it.
2) 95% of the parts are 'common' pinball parts. Obviously, the ramps, the VUK habit trail, and any specialized toy/mechanism would not be.
3) All of the electronics (e.g P-Roc and driver boards ) are 'off the shelf' items available from Pinballcontrollers.com and the CPU would likely be available from online merchants (not sure what the final CPU is). As far as I know Dutch Pinball is also using pinball controllers parts (they did for BOP2.0, so I am making an assumption here) and the Mulitmorphic P^3 is, so I don't think there is a major concern with the availability of those items. In addition, in theory, in a situation of a desperation, you could move to a WPC or Stern driver board (would require some extension of wires to where the larger driver board would be located, and changing a config file). The P-roc itself would be the only part that you could not find an alternative for as far as electronics.

You film and I'll play! See you soon buddy. I have a surprise for you too

You got it!

ebay.com link: Hot Toys 1 6 Predator 2 City Hunter Predator Red Trophy Skull

Can't wait for the video!!!